Any other Dean supporters now torn over Gen Clark?

[catpower2000]

I've been pretty set on Dean (though Kerry or Edwards would have been fine too), but this announcement is causing me to waver.

Can Dean and Clark supporters make their case here on this thread so I can have all the info in one spot? I think there are others of us who support Dean, but really like Clark too. Any issues where they seriously diverge? Any issues where one is much more electable than the other?

Cat

[BurtWorm]

1. Let's see how Clark does in the debates.

Let's see how progressive his agenda is. Let's see how he sticks it Bush.

[deutsey]

2. No, but I am interested in what Clark has to say

It will take a lot for me to drop Dean...a lot to cool me on Dean and heat me up for Clark.

I am glad Clark has finally announced, though.

[trogdor]

27. Same here.

I think Clark brings something of great value to the table, namely worthy competition and good ideas, particularly on foreign policy. This is important because the eventual nominee will likely run on a mixture of all ten candidates' ideas, regardless of their origin. Bush, OTOH, has no new ideas. I would enthusiastically support Gen. Clark should he win the nomination, but I am already too involved with the Dean campaign to just switch.

[Walt Starr]

3. I'm not torn, I'm turned

Was a Dean supporter, now a Clark supporter.

:evilgrin:

[retyred]

94. Welcome

CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
Retyred IN FLA.

[w13rd0]

4. I welcome the Generals introduction to the race...

...but I'm still volunteering for the Dean campaign and hoping he gets the nomination. As I've said before, having another principled, accomplished individual critical of the Bush regime in the race certainly isn't unwelcome...

[robbedvoter]

5. Divergences: NRA, tax repeal

Clark said to the gun enthusiasts: "You want guns? Join the Army! We got plenty!"
On the tax repeal I heard Clark say that he'd only cancel the tax cut to the rich, not to the middle class. That's all I got.

[blm]

44. That's a great line.

Gun control just may heat up again as an issue.

[calimary]

46. Wesley Clark is pro choice, too.

I'm still in the Dean column but I like Clark. I will wait and see. It remains to be seen whether he articulates the popular rage the way Howard Dean does. I want a candidate with the fire in his belly to get bush the hell OUTTA there! If Clark acts too much like the gentleman, the rethugs will roll right over him. If he comes out swinging, turns a phrase with a clever barb, showcases his intellect and his impressive credentials, and displays charisma, then he may become rawther irresistable. For now, I'm going to wait and see. But I'm going to see - all I can.

[Joe the Revelator]

6. Turned

would still love a Clark/Dean ticket though

[T Roosevelt]

7. Nope

While I like Clark, I've seen him speak, and he does nothing for me. He is very intelligent, and well educated, he's missing that "something" that Dean has.

That and I think this fawning over him is way overdone, and if he wasn't a general, nobody would think twice about the man. I don't think having a military rank alone qualifies one to become president. But we'll see how he does in the debates.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. That "something"?

"I think this fawning over him is way overdone"

I guess the difference in fawning over Clark and the fawning over Dean is that I can tell you exactly why I "fawn" over Clark, and it's not just "something" that I can't define :)

[T Roosevelt]

28. Considering the "fawning" began before he even announced as a Dem

Nobody even knew his party affiliation, yet everybody was treating him like the second coming or something. At least we all know Dean is a Dem, and where he stands on issues.

Again, if he didn't have "General" in front of his name, he would be just another candidate.

[Clark Can WIN]

36. "if he didn't have "General" in front of his name"

But he does. And we did know his affiliation, Clinton has been giving Wesley Clark hands up since he was a brigadeer general in Texas. Oh, and we have been listening to Clark and we do know where he stands on most all the issues, the rest will be revealed shortly. I think Dean is great, but I think he would make for easy pickins by Rowe&Co. We need someone with a more firm and steady hand imo.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

41. Clark can beat Bush, Dean can't

Clark can get the votes of the white male working class, which will destroy Bush in the election, and weaken the Republican party for a generation. He can also get us back the enlisted military vote, or a substantial part of it, which will also seriously hurt the Republicans. A Clark candidacy is a direct attack right to the gut of the GOP.

Dean can't do any of that, because his supporters are college kids and upper class New England white liberals, which almost always vote Democratic anyway.

If Clark is an economic progressive, and isn't afraid to say so, he can lock up the left wing of our party and still appeal to the center. We already know Dean is a economic conservative, closer to Lieberman on the economy than most candidates. What good will that do us?

Sorry, I guess I just can't see that "something" that Dean has. Sure, I'd hold my nose and vote Dean if it came to that, but I sure as hell hope I won't have to.

That "General" in front of his name does a lot more than the "Governor" or "Doctor" in front of Dean's considering this is an election for Command in Chief of the US military, at a time when the US is at war. That war won't end unless we can beat Bush.

[Kahuna]

47. On the white, working class male., you're right...

Clark has a potential to be a true uniter. As someone said months ago.. Women will love him, men will want to be like him. He has the potential to win more states than ANY of the other candidates. Therefore rendering the bushies plan to steal the election useless.

[Larkspur]

61. Most of Dean's supporters are not college age

I'm 42 and a white female. Most of Dean's supporters are professionals who have Internet access and who are angry at Bush and the Dem leadership. Dean's campaign is now in the process of reaching out to those without Internet access.

When you say "white male" are you referring to the "redneck" voters? Cause those are the heavy pro-military types.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

66. I said college age and upper class white liberals

upper class white liberals would tend to be "professionals who have Internet access and who are angry at Bush and the Dem leadership" wouldn't they? Perhaps I should have said upper middle class.

"When you say "white male" are you referring to the "redneck" voters? Cause those are the heavy pro-military types."

I said the white male working class. You might refer to them as "rednecks" but I don't.

[TLM]

82. I am white male working class...

I am not a "upper class New England white liberal" and your baseless claims about Dean's support beg the question why you have to attack Dean to push Clark, who as far as I know has nothing to offer the minority community that Dean doesn't.

In fact while Dean was working in the emergency room in a minority community, Clark was blowing people up.

It seems to me that the only experience Clark brings to the table is military experience... no elected office experience, no budget experience, no domestic policy experience etc.

All he has is that he has military experience. That makes him great VP material, and in 8 years great presidential material. But I do not think Clark is ready for the driver's seat. We do not need another president who is so focused on war issue that domestic issues suffer.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

98. don't argue with me, argue with the polls

The polls have been VERY clear about where Dean is getting his support from. Sorry if you don't like it, go argue with them.

[TLM]

80. You continue to repeat this crap about all Dean supporters being white.

"Clark can get the votes of the white male working class, which will destroy Bush in the election, and weaken the Republican party for a generation. He can also get us back the enlisted military vote, or a substantial part of it, which will also seriously hurt the Republicans. A Clark candidacy is a direct attack right to the gut of the GOP.

Dean can't do any of that, because his supporters are college kids and upper class New England white liberals, which almost always vote Democratic anyway. "



That's crap, and one trip to a meetup would prove that. Dean's supporters cross race, gender, and political lines. And exactly what is Clark's big appeal to minority communities?

Dean appeals to working class folks, of all races, because he is very pro-labor and favors small businesses over big business. He also reaches a lot of those working class white folks with his A rating from the NRA.

"If Clark is an economic progressive, and isn't afraid to say so, he can lock up the left wing of our party and still appeal to the center. We already know Dean is a economic conservative, closer to Lieberman on the economy than most candidates. What good will that do us?"

Well what good did it do us when clinton's economic policy balanced the budget? Oh about 23 million new jobs, a huge budget surplus, etc. etc.

[catpower2000]

97. That's a good point...

I think Dean does have appeal to working class folks because of his pro-labor stance, as well as his gun stance. Let me ask you this? Do you have any concern about Southern voters, with their disdain for Northeastern liberals? I ask because I live in Virginia, and I DO have that concern.

Cat

edit for clarity: I don't mean *I* have a problem with Northeastern liberals--hell, I AM one! I mean are you concerned SOUTHERNERS might have that problem?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

107. total crap

I went to the Dean rally in NYC, and it was the whitest New York city event I've ever been to. It's not a secret that Dean's supporters are almost all white. Poll after poll says so, and it's no surprise that DeanUnderground.com is 80% white as well.

I'll tell you what Clark's potential appeal to minority communities is - the US military is the most integrated institution in America, and has been for a while. While most liberals were talking about what we need to do to get black folks on board, Clark was actually working with black people in the military.

[LalahLand]

Clark has no political experience...

That "General" in front of his name does a lot more than the "Governor" or "Doctor" in front of Dean's considering this is an election for Command in Chief of the US military, at a time when the US is at war. That war won't end unless we can beat Bush.


I'm going to be brutally honest here-- advancing in the military is a lot easier than becoming a doctor and being a governor (regardless of the size of the state). In the military, its all about saying the right "key phrases" and knowing the right people. You're not allowed to think for yourself or make any major decisions. You're told what to do.

[denverbill]

8. I agree with both the first two posts.

I like Dean a lot and it will take some convincing to make me switch. I would need to know a LOT more about Clark's ideas before I'd vote for him over Dean.

I find it very interesting that Dean & he talked several times recently. I hope it indicates a convergence of their positions on the issues.

I will definitely be interested in hearing Clark talk on the issues.

[Larkspur]

9. Clark will have to prove himself as an effective campaigner

and effective campaigning depends a lot on organizing skill. Clark should have this ability because he as in the military, but then so was Kerry and look where his campaign is -- stagnating.

Even if Clark does well in the debates, the question is, can he energize grassroots supporters, like Dean is?

It's probably good that Clark announced today, because Hurricane Isabel will dominate the news for the next few days.

[robbedvoter]

19. Grassroots supporters DRAFTED Clark - so the "energizing"

question is already answered. We , the grassroots are here, celebrating and damn energized!

[Larkspur]

33. Yes, but can you compete with Dean's numbers?

Can Clark attract the attention of those who have given up on politics? Can Clark inspire hope that we can change America?

Clark may be Clinton's flavor of the moment candidate, but remember Bill Clinton, despite being very popular in the Dem party, did not help the Dem party grow. The Democratic party shedded members even during his presidency.

Dean has gotten people, who never before have participated in politics, excited about politics and has given us hope that we can defeat Bush and put this country back on course.

[Clark Can WIN]

38. This is the same thing the Kucinch people say

"has gotten people, who never before have participated in politics, excited about politics and has given us hope that we can defeat Bush and put this country back on course."

Guess what? So has Clark. You're talking to one now. Never volunteered for a campaign before in my life but I am here with bells on now Jack!

As for numbers, did scores of thousands of people beg Dean to run before he had even considered it? Before he began campaigning? I think Clark will do fine with numbers now that he is in it for real.

[Kahuna]

52. Can Dean energize outside of the grassrooters? That seems

to me to be the bigger and most important question. What president was ever elected just because of grassroots supporters? None. A candidate needs a wider appeal than just the grassroots supporters.

[Larkspur]

58. Yes, Dean can energize outside the Dem grassroots

Lowell Weicker, a moderate Republican, endorsed Dean, and Dean's record of balancing budgets in Vermont is attracting the attention of other moderate Republicans sick of Bush, Independents, and Libertarians.

[stickdog]

89. What a joke.

How can you dismiss the most effective grassroots campaign in history so blithely?

Are you an activist or an armchair pundit?

[Cascadian]

103. Why Clinton lost supporters.

The reason why Clinton lost some support within the Democratic Party particularly among the left is because he made some "Republican Light" choices. "Don't ask, don't tell", three strikes your out for felons, pro-Nafta, the bombing of Serbia, among others. This is why many of the left supported Nader in 1996 and 2000. The Democratic Party must return to being the party of the little guy! If it is going to survive!

John

[stickdog]

87. You are here, yes.

Do you have 100,000 meeting up every month?

Do you have 150,000 small contributors?

Do you have any plans or any ideas how you might achieve something like this?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

93. Meetup Numbers

Just because Dean has 110,000 or so registered, does not mean he has that many actually meeting. I attended both the Clark and Dean meetups in Santa Monica earlier this month. Dean had more, but not by much. Contrast this with his at the time 9x numbers on Meetup.com, and you'll see what I mean.

As for the small donors, most of Clark's pledges are from small donors, based on my recollection. We'll see how he does in a couple of months; I believe it'll be very solid.

DTH

[stickdog]

113. What the hell are you talking about?

Dean's numbers are taken from those who RSVP for the meetups. At every meetup I've been to the actual numbers have exceeded the RSVP's. Well over 70,000 met for Dean this month.

Has Clark signed up even half that many supporters? (Dean has 400,000.)

[Kahuna]

50. Grassroot voters? Maybe not as well as Dean. The voting base

in the general election, much better than Dean.
We need to concentrate on who is the best candidate to unseat bush instead of who is the best candidate to win the nomination.

[stickdog]

91. No. We need to concentrate on a NEW CAMPAIGN MODEL THAT

RETURNS THE POWER TO THE PEOPLE.

Triangulation is so 20th century, dude.

We need a new model of for grassroots campaigning.

Imagine 10 million politically active Americans who contribute $20 a piece to take back their country. That needs to be the campaign model of the future to compete with the corporate takeover of our political system.

Anybody dismissing this model is the ENEMY OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY. Anyone not working to achieve this model is either misguided or else a friend of the status quo.

[CMT]

10. No

Not torn at all. I consider Gen. Clark a fine man. He and Dean agree on Iraq. Gen. Clark is a great patriot who has served his country well--as has Gov. Dean. Gov. Dean, however, has a record from five terms as Governor to run on. He balanced budgets, he provided insurance, he preserved land to protect the environment, he signed a Civil Unions Bill, he enhanced education in the state of Vermont, He is adamentally pro-choice--his background as a doctor gives him great credibility on this issue, he has made appointments, he has created jobs.

No, to my way of thinking Gen. Clark may have defense policy know-how but Dean has a wealth of experience in other fields and still came to the same conclusion as Clark on Iraq.

I think they might make a good ticket.

[catpower2000]

14. Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean? Which is more electable? nt

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. IMO, Clark/Dean

Clark is not just a southerner, but a MILITARY Southerner (which is huge in the South). He's not a stereotypical "New England Liberal" (and while I love N.E. Liberals, the Thugs will undoubtedly paint Dean that way).

Many other reasons, too, but I really have to run now. :-)

DTH

[Larkspur]

17. Agree with you CMT

Also, Dean took his stand on Iraq when the polls showed that 70% of Americans supported the war. Dean's critics thought the Gov's stand was committing political suicide, but now it looks prescient. That stand by Dean took political courage. Don't recall Clark doing something similar at that time, of course, he wasn't running for Prez then either.

[CentristDemocrat]

112. Dean has no chance

A stale governor from VERMONT?? yeah right.

[bitchkitty]

11. I want Dean

because I know that he listens, but I want to hear what Clark has to say. I'm very happy that he's announced because it just makes the field of candidates better.

[Patriot_Spear]

12. No, Bashing 'Dim Son' is the theme so far...

The more candidates the better.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. Cat, Here's My Thinking in a Nutshell

Have to leave for work soon, but here goes:

By virtue of his military background, he has the gravitas and credibility to COMPLETELY TRASH Shrub on the war and foreign policy (which he has done so far in practically every appearance and interview he's given). While I respect Dean for his own efforts on this front, many people can dismiss him, whether fairly or not, simply because his experience comes from being Governor of a small New England state.

So Clark basically has teflon on this issue. And whether we like it or not, this is going to be a big issue in the 2004 election.

Additionally, Clark is NO SLOUCH at domestic issues. He has come out strongly in favor of all traditional Democratic positions on abortion, affirmative action, women's rights, the economy, and many, many other "hot button" issues. He is a RHODES SCHOLAR with a Master's in ECONOMICS from Oxford, and finished first in his class. This man knows about the economy, and has a stronger economic background than most of the field, IMO.

Finally, he has CHARISMA. He is telegenic, and can criticize without sounding shrill, and is just SO damn impressive if you watch him or hear him. I recommend a fantastic NPR radio interview, if you have time (it's 45-50 minutes long), available here:

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2003/09/20030908_b_main.asp

If you have more time (and you probably need a broadband connection), there are TONS of his TV appearances available at DigitalClark.com (a great site).

Cheers!

:toast:

DTH

[opstachuck]

43. thanks, i'm listening to it now. i love clark, but dean's...

got the goods as well. in fact, i think dean sounds more like a general than clark IMO. a great interview, also 50 minutes long, from the same station, albeit from last year...

http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2002/07/20020703_a_main.asp

[Demobrat]

15. I don't care about military service.

Take away that issue and Clark has nothing for me. I want the guy who signed the first civil unions bill into law at great political and personal risk, and who left his state's children almost fully insured. Who was that again? Oh, yeah. Dean.

[CWebster]

16. Easy

No generals.

[Nashyra]

26. Easy

He has what it takes.

[CWebster]

74. Yes, a fired general who couldn't quite decide what

his political allegiance is.

That should do it.

[MoonAndSun]

18. Dean is still my man, but I like Wesley Clark. At one point my #2 guy was

John Kerry, but that is changing due to his attacks on Dean. I will hold out on my #2 spot favorite until Clark starts participating in the debates to see what his positions are.

[creativelcro]

22. Clark

Clark is a Rep decoy... -CV

[trogdor]

30. I doubt that.

n/c

[gully]

23. Nope, I'm still in the Dean camp.

I don't know enough about Clark, he has not managed a state or a budget. In fact, he mirrors Dean on the issues.

I don't think his campaign is going to be as easy or clean as we all might think. He's been immune to much real critique. We'll have to see where the chips fall.

I can't understand switching from Dean to Clark at this point in the game?

[OKNancy]

24. You have time

I'd just keep an open mind and see how things turn in the next months. It's fun to be totally for someone and to get your heart and soul in a campaign, but that can wait if you are truly undecided.

I was an Edwards person because I like his populist message, but his war vote just made me concerned. With Clark I get an anti-war liberal ( well center-left anyway) who so far says the things I want to hear.

[PAMod]

25. Dean is the one I hope will be the nominee, but...

it is very early in the process and if Dean should falter, its nice to have one more excellent choice in Wes Clark.

No knock against Edwards, Kerry, Gephardt, Graham, Lieberman & Kucinich, (all great Americans) but I don't (yet) believe that a current member of congress is going to attract the new participants that will be necessary to win in November '04.

[calimary]

59. THAT is true.

My second choice for awhile was Kerry (didn't like his war support vote, did like his putting his ass on the line in Vietnam) until he told all of us still bothered by Selection 2000 to "get over it." That made me get over him. Now, as you've put it, "it is very early in the process and if Dean should falter, its nice to have one more excellent choice in Wes Clark."

Besides, most of the current members of congress (exception: Kucinich) all caved to bush on the war, the patriot act, and/or the tax cuts, and in some cases, all three - (they hit the trifecta!) so that tells me several significant things: they bought into the lies without any critical thinking; they allowed themselves to be rushed to judgment (any of 'em stop a moment to read the Patriot Act before they were told to ramrod it through?); and some of them are apparently still "afraid of appearing unpatriotic" to vote their conscience, and recognize the will and directives of their constituents.

I'm still a Dean supporter. But a Clark in there is a REALLY nice fallback position. I'll see how he does in the grappling contests.

[kaitykaity]

29. As a Dean supporter, I was really hoping that Clark

would forego an individual campaign and
join the Dean ticket this spring.

I have no doubt at all that these two men
together, either 2-1 or 1-2 (doesn't matter to
me) can beat Bushie Boy and the Cabal.

That's all that matters.

D

[imax2268]

31. I'm still thinking it over...

I like Dean...but I also like Clark...

would be nice to see them join forces...

"are you sure I should be using a 4 iron daddy...?"

[GumboYaYa]

32. I don't know where Clark stands on enough issues to be torn yet.

I think Clark is well-spoken and has a stellar resume. He is a strong candidate in terms of the package. I'm interested to see what is inside the box. Because I opposed the war in Bosnia and the means by which it was fought, I have a hard time jumping on the Clark bandwagon this early. If he is the nominee I will be campaigning hard and heavy for him against Bush.

I am still strongly in the Dean camp.

[otohara]

34. Nope

Military man is not for me. No thanks.

[DemNoir]

35. Not torn

But willing to listen.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

37. Not at all torn

But I like Clark so far, am looking forward to hearing more about his positions, particularly regarding the economy.

I think Clark will surge, but he may be hurt with his lack of experience (esp on economic issues). He could prove me wrong, though.

If Dean and Clark are the top 2 candidates before too long, this will completely legitimize the anti-Iraq-war position, in my opinion.

[catpower2000]

40. My understand from higher in the thread...

is that Gen. Clark majored in Economics and was first in his class at Oxford. Seems to me he would have a handle on it?

Cat

[RevolutionStartsNow]

42. Hey, thanks

I knew I'd seen that before, thanks for pointing it out.

Also read on the draftClark site some things he said about the Bush Tax Cut.

What do you think his primary issue will be? Will he come after Bush on the war? Social issues?

[catpower2000]

51. It appears to be a military issue, yes...

We're talking about a man who is unimpeachable (no pun) when it comes to service to the USA. AND HE OPPOSED THE WAR. Seems to me he would go for Bush's gut for killing US military forces in a foolish and evil pursuit in Iraq.

I love Dr. Dean, he inspires me. And I need to know a lot more about Clark before I throw my vote over. (And as OKNancy said above, I still have time, and so do we all.) But Clark is very, VERY appealing to me for several reasons:

1. He's a military man, running for President while we are at war. Constrast that with Chimpy AWOL.

2. He's a Southerner. Much as I love Dean (and I really, really do), I've always been concerned about the fact that he is a Northeast liberal. I live in Virginia right now, and lemme tell ya, even moderates and swing voters aren't even going to LOOK at a Northeast liberal here in VA. But a GENERAL and a SOUTHERNER--they'd eat that up with a spoon.

3. Like Dean, he strikes me as being a highly educated and well-spoken man who is on the correct side of all the social issues. He, however, has not had the opportunity that Dean has to implement social and domestic policies and prove himself. That doesn't mean he's not CAPABLE of doing so.

Cat

edit: spelling is hard!

[TLM]

84. An issue of book smarts vs expereince.

you can know the numbers, but Dean has over a decade of experience doing it, and doing it well.

Dean would be a better pick for the number 1 slot, but Clark would be the perfect VP pick.

[Noordam]

39. no clark played with himself to long and the only thing he is good

for is VP.

[Khephra]

45. Nope

I like Clark, but I'm still 100% for Dean.

[JackSwift]

48. Gotta see his policies and why

he thinks no formal political experience entitles him to start at the top. I'll give him a fair looksie, but he has as much political experience as Sharpton, so he gets the same looksie.

[MR. ELECTABLE]

49. Not at all

Why should I support Clark? Because he's a "military man"? Give me a break-- I won't support a candidate without knowing his platform on civil rights or the economy... and knowing he has the experience to carry his beliefs through the house and senate.

I need more than a fvcking "stuffed shirt" candidate!

[catpower2000]

55. According to posters above...

Clark is center-left economically (with an Economics degree from Oxford) and on the correct side on civil rights, as well as abortion and all the other "hot button" liberal issues.

Cat

[Pastiche423]

53. The only thing that would make me drop

my support for Dean, is if he asked clark to be his vp.

[w4rma]

54. Nope. I'm not torn even a little bit.

A) I prefer folks with an academic background (Dean's medical degree and work as a physician) and governing experience (11 years as Governor of Vermont) to military backgrounds (General Clark's long and outstanding career in the army.)

B) Gov. Dean has the fundrasing and grassroots support that the other Democratic candidates can only envy, at this point.

C) Gov. Dean has proven, beyond any hint of doubt, that he is not only a great political campaigner, but a record breaking political campaigner.

[catpower2000]

60. Academic background...

Clark is a Rhodes scholar--first in his class at Oxford, majored in economics. According to posters above.

Cat

[tjdee]

62. Also taught economics at West Point.

I swear Rove's head must be exploding.

An economics professor and a four star general.

[w4rma]

64. More specifically, it's Gov. Dean's scientific background within academics

Bush has an MBA. I wasn't impressed with his buisness degree, either.

A background in science shows an ability to understand the world with good logic and detail.

[theboss]

63. Um . . .

Dean has Yale and Medical School, though he was probably accepted into Yale when he was born due to his name. And Clark has first in his class at the Point and a Rhodes Scholarship. I would call it a wash on the academic front.

[w4rma]

67. Dean finished his medical doctorate at Albert Einstein College of Medicine

which is located in the Bronx. Note, this is where he met his wife, who is also a medical doctor.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

69. Dean Has Good Academic Credentials, But Not as Good as Clark's

Yes, Dean went to Yale, but Clark was #1 in his class at West Point. Yes, Dean went to Med School, but Clark was a Rhodes Scholar. And Clark has a Master's in Economics, and he taught Economics for a while, too, IIRC.

It's a one-up on each front, IMO. Plus Clark's higher education is arguably more relevant than Dean's, as he's not really using his medical school training any more (although it would certainly be useful on the narrow issue of healthcare).

Regardless, both men are among the top of the field when it comes to academia.

DTH

[w4rma]

75. MBE vs. MD

IMHO, a Doctorate of Medicine (and the proven logic and scientific understanding of the world that comes with this) is more relavent to governing and decision making, in general, than an MBE (Masters of Buisness Economics). Example: Bush* has an MBA (Masters of Buisness Administration).

Dean practiced medicine.
Clark taught economics.

Dean governed the state of Vermont as a governor.
Clark commanded large portions of the U.S. Army as a 4 star general.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

77. They're Both Awesome

You'll get no argument from me on that. But I still believe the General has slightly better academic creds. :-)

DTH

[proud patriot]

56. I really like Clark , but I'm committed to Dean

I really like all the candidates for many different reasons.:loveya:

Well there is one that I don't "really" like but I sure
as hell would vote for even him over bush.

My absolute best wishes to all DUers and the Candidates we have
chosen to stand behind .

In the end we will all be together again . The candidates
are blessed we have diverged our talents among them all .

:hi: :loveya: :hi:

[Mari333]

57. Im ABB

Anyone But Bush.

[tridim]

65. I'm still with Dean

I must admit I'm dissapointed that Clark isn't announcing as Dean's VP, although I still believe that we'll end up with a Dean/Clark ticket. Clark/Dean doesn't really do it for me.

[Cascadian]

108. A Dean/Clark ticket would be good.

But I think Dean would be wise to select Bob Graham. Clark would be a great Secretary of Defense.

John

[dave29]

68. Dean awoke the DEM party

Has the energy, base, fundraising prowess, political courage and right balance on the issues - BUT I will vote for whoever the nominee is. I do think Clark is a welcome edition.

My Dream Team:

President Dean
VP/Sec of Defense Clark
Attourney General John Edwards

Regardless: BUSH MUST GO, and I will vote for the nominee.

[Upfront]

70. To Soon To Call.

Lets give it some time and see how it shakes out. I do think it hurts Kerry more then Dean.

[LoZoccolo]

71. Not really...

1. They're gonna hammer on the fact he's never held elected office.
2. They're gonna know he's never campaigned for anything before, and I don't know if he can manuever in this crazy climate.
3. I don't think his campaign can get as big or as complex as the Dean machine. You need a huge network of informed people to counter the right-wing propaganda establishment.

That having been said, I wouldn't mind him getting elected. I think if he was VP for awhile he'd very well be able to run for POTUS after that.

[newsguyatl]

72. i'm still and will remain 100% dean

but i like clark...

[TLM]

73. Not at all... Clark will be VP.

Clark entering the race pretty much guarantees a Dean victory in the nomination, because Clark will pull the support from the Kerry and Lieberman, on the military/defense issues.

While the bulk of Dean supporters will stick with Dean. That way Dean's competition in the primary is undercut without Dean having to do a thing. It’s GENIUS! It is the perfect way for Dean to win the nomination without having to pander to the party in ways that will hurt him in the general election. When Clark is tapped it will pull all those voters focused on military and defense issues into the Dean camp.

[uptohere]

76. Dean has won an election, Clark has not

Dean decided to stop being governor, Clark got removed

Dean has sensible views on controversial topics, nobody really knows what Clark thinks

Dean wants to be president, Clark wants to be vice president only you can't run for that and having no real political constituancy he has to pretend to run so that he can demonstrate some value on the ticket

Dean can't control his tongue and likes to lift lines from TV shows but at least he has had to do some real politicing, Clark does 2 minutes segments on Fox News Channels

Please tell me you are done thinking it over

[catpower2000]

78. Nope, sorry :)

But I can say I am certainly undecided. There is a lot to ponder on this thread, and the ensuing debates and campaigning will tell a lot, too. I like the fact that I still have time. I find both candidates might impressive, and I will enthusiastically support either if they get the nom.

Cat

[uptohere]

85. OK, enjoy yourself

and give some consideration to Edwards, you might be surprized by what you find.

[Cascadian]

101. Too true

"Dean has sensible views on controversial topics, nobody really knows what Clark thinks..."


See? This is what bugs the hell out of me. Clark has not fully revealed what his stand is on other issues are and yet people are willing to follow him blindly. This is problem with some Americans. We need to spend time to look at a candidate and think for ourselves on how he or she can fit as a candidate. This is not only short-sighted but dangerous for a democracy!

John

[catpower2000]

102. Well, try this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=347249

And I find it rather offensive that you would assume "people are blindly following him" without educating themselves on his stance--especially DUers, who are generally much better-informed than the American people at large.

Cat

[uptohere]

109. I agree that this looks unfair at this juncture

but remember way back when it wasn't really even a rumor, people were all over him solely because he was ex-military and spoke against the war. At that point those DU posters really were treading blindly.

[mkregel]

79. I'll still vote for Dean in the primaries

But I'm really hoping for Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean.

[Cha]

81. I started looking at Dean about a half an hour after Gore said

he wasn't going to run and my support for him has just gotten stronger and stronger!

:dem: I see no reason to jump this Winning Ship! :kick:

[JNelson6563]

105. same here.

I'll vote for Clark if he gets the nom. but Dean is still my man.

Julie

[Quahog]

83. I'm going to go out on a limb here

I'm not exactly a Deaniac, but he has been my first choice up to this point, with Dennis getting my heartfelt thanks for being the sadly unelectable soul of this race.

But here's what I think is happening, in light of multiple meetings between Clark and Dean prior to Clark's announcement. I think Clark figures Dean can sew this nomination up without too much trouble. If you look at Dean's momentum over the last six months, what he and his supporters have accomplished is really unprecedented. At the end of the day, Dean will have the apparatus in place to finance an effective campaign against bush*. No one else has shown this potential, and the first primaries are NOT that far off. It's hard to imagine anyone catching Dean. For whatever reasons (and I think it's sensible policy positions combined with something about him that just inspires people), Dean appears to be emerging as "the guy."

Clark wants to be part of the next administration, and VP would be a great spot for him. I think he and Dean talked about this at length, I think the reason for their mulitple meetings was to make sure they had alignment on all of the major issues. But they probably decided that announcing their "ticket" this early in the game was just too cheeky, that it might piss people off for being too clever by half.

So Clark enters the race. All of a sudden, there's this huge media spotlight on Clark. Clark and Dean continue to campaign, appear in debates, and it becomes clear that their positions are more or less the same. Clark starts to build momentum based on his charm, resume and military gravitas, but he still lacks the financial war chest to take on Dean, much less the BFEE. Still, in the NH and Iowa primaries, he manages to come in second or third behind Dean. Instantly, EVERYONE (not just DUers and other political junkies) start talking about a Dean-Clark ticket, and the rest of the candidates start to drop out. By the time of the Dem convention, it's a done deal, everyone is united behind the ticket, and the whole thing came to be organically, without seeming like some kind of plot to disrupt the normal course of the primary process.

I'm going to feel so proud of myself if I'm right (and like a big dick if I'm wrong). First indication that I'm on the right track will be a lack of sniping between Dean and Clark, on the stump and in the debates. Look for them to avoid confrontation, and possibly even say good things about each other.

[TLM]

88. BINGO.... and also remember...

who is going to be hurt the most in the primary by the military guy entering the race?

The guys who will get hurt by Clark are those who have been banking on their military service like Kerry and the tough on defense stance like Graham and Lieberman.

Clark will pull support from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place guys... which means when the primary rolls around the military/pro-defense voters will be split between like 4 guys.

Dean will walk with the nomination. Then he can tap Clark as VP and the ticket will stomp Bush.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they planed this.

[PAMod]

99. Well said, Quahog

I hope and pray that you are 100% correct.

I was thinking along the same lines, but I don't know enough about Clark and his relationship to Dean to make any sense of it all.

The last two sentences certainly have been dead on thus far.

[blm]

110. Dean and Clark are not aligned on the taxcut or gun control.

,

[stickdog]

86. Who has mounted the best grassroots Presidential campaign in history?

Why would any Dean supporter leave the best grassroots campaign in history?

Please explain the appeal of Clark's "top down" traditional, military modeled campaign vs. Dean's "bubble up" populist uprising.

[Seneca]

90. being undecided is perfectly reasonable

The Iowa caucus is still 4 months away, and the primaries (if you live in a primary state), even a few months more. The general election is 14 - 14! months from now. No hurry, I would say.

If Clark's entry makes you hesitant to get 100% behind just one candidate, you are likely in the majority. Now is the best time to look more objectively, sort out your gut feelings, assess their positions, and so forth.

You mentioned four candidates you are most certain about... Dean, Edwards, Kerry, and Clark. Focus on those 4 to make your work easier before primary time. Within 6 months, your decision will be made easier, because enough primaries will have been held to narrow the field.

I myself like to get behind one or two I am most comfortable with, and if neither makes it to getting nominated, I guess it is nose-holding time.

Kinda sad when we are reduced to nose-holding, when it is much more fulfilling to support a candidate you truly feel is best for the job. There are many enthusiastic candidate boosters in here to say the least, and in some ways, I envy that, because it has been many years since I backed a candidate this early.

At least you proved that being indecisive doesn't get your thread sunk. I think you got some decent answers too, for several candidates.

So just sit back and take in the campaigns, and don't give much thought to the final decision for some time to come. If you are the donating type, you may want to give to the top 2 or 3 choices just in case. Cover your bases, and once you do get 100% behind someone, you will still have plenty of weeks and months to enjoy your support.

[catpower2000]

92. This is excellent advice, thank you...

I am very much looking forward to the ensuing campaigns, and I am certainly grateful that we have so many fine candidates to choose from! An embarassment of riches, to be sure.

Yeah, it was a good thread, eh? I hardly ever post in GD. And almost flame-free, too!! Whoda thunk it? ;-)

Cat

[RamboLiberal]

95. I'm torn - I like both these guys

I'm going to support both. I may have to dig a little deeper in my wallet to do that financially.

I'm going to see how this falls out. Who takes the lead in the polls. Who wins the early primaries. But in the meantime I'll talk up both candidates.

Fortunately I'm not in an early primary state as far as figuring out which man I'm voting for.

I just want Whistle-Ass the hell out of our White House.

[Yupster]

96. Give him some time

You may absolutely hate him or absolutely love him.

If in the middle somewhere, then you'll have to make a tough choice.

I'm just going to listen for a while.

[Cascadian]

100. I am sticking with Dean.

I am too concerned with Clark's vagueness and his Kosovo incident really troubles me. Howard Dean is the only formidable and electable candidate as far as I am concerned. I like Kucinich too but I do not think he will get it as the rest of the country is not as left-wing as he is. I wish it were though honestly.

John

[FubarFly]

104. Absolutely not.

Although I still like Clark: I think he has the potential to be a good president, and I think that his voice will help bring down b*sh.

[buddhamama]

106. a friend of mine

who is a recent convert to the DEM party,thanks to me :-)
was supporting Dean until i sent him the link to the Draft Wesley Clark site on Friday.

He feels Clark is exactly what we need right now in a leader,especially on the world stage.

[artr2]

111. Nope, DEAN is my canditate

nt