Electronic Voting: To anyone that has not figured this out yet:

[Zorra]

The only reason to use any type of accounting system that is grossly inaccurate, subject to undetectable manipulation of sums, and does not produce indisputably verifiable results, is to use the system to deceive.

If my bank used accounting machines that were unverifiable, did not give me a receipt for my bank transactions, and then told me that my account balance was far less than yet they could not prove it, and millions of other people had the very same problems with that bank, I would take this as evidence that my money was being stolen.

In fact, I'd know damn well that my money was being stolen.

Can I prove the 2004 presidential election was stolen? Yes, I probably could, if I were given enough honorable law enforcement/legal personnel and resources to conduct a legitimate investigation without any interference by republicans or other parties interested in obscuring the facts.

But I do not need an investigation to know that the election was stolen. All I need to know was that completely unverifiable and easily manipulated accounting methods were used to cast and count votes.

If given the opportunity, the members of DU could design and implement a foolproof, accurate, efficient, and verifiable standardized national voting system, safeguarded by bipartisan and non-partisan independent observers, based on using paper ballots hand marked with a pen, that would ensure fair elections with clear, verifiable, indisputable results.

Republican legislators would never allow never allow a genuinely fair and honest balloting system to be implemented

[Jo March]

1. Bravo! Excellent post!

Can you imagine anyone using a bank that did not provide paper receipts for ATM or teller machine withdrawals? Can you imagine if suddenly that bank said, "We aren't going to let you see your statement. Just trust us." ??

I know that the election was stolen. Look at all of the people who went to Nashville this past weekend. They know it, too.

The world will know soon enough.

We're going to make election reform work for Americans. We have to.

[demgurl]

2. Your last sentence says all that needs to be said.

If people wanted an election that was completely on the up and up then they would make it so that there was a paper trail and votes could not just disappear. There is only one reason, I can think of, people would not want an honest and traceable voting system.

[BillyDoc]

16. And that last sentence implies something important

And that is that the only way we will again see democracy in the USA is if the people of America INSIST on it. And by that I don't mean simply beg and plead with our bought-and-paid-for politicians of both parties. If you really want democracy, you will have to fight for it, and you WILL have to engage in civil disobedience in that fight.

Of course, hardly anyone is willing to fight . . . so maybe democracy really isn't a good idea here. We have way too many wimps and too many "good Americans" waiting patiently for "somebody else" to do their duty for them. (http://breakthelink.org/The%20reason%20why.php )

For those rare Americans with the stones to actually work on this problem, see if you can find some good ideas here: http://electionfraudbounty.org/Two%20simple%20election%... . And if you are an actual code-monkey with Linux programming experience . . . PLEASE, PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE check out this site. Then contact me!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. There will come a breaking point when too many people are....

...doing without too many things, things that they used to be able to afford to buy easily.

When that point is reached, Americans will rise up and go after the top 1% who own 99% of everything. At that point in time, police and military units will have to choose for whom they will be willing to fight.

It will get a lot uglier before corrections are made...and we may not recognize the government that emerges from the ashes.

[natrat]

44. silly, that's why they build the camps and surveilance networks

so when it does come to a boil we can get mowed down in 34 seconds

[FreedomAngel82]

25. Exactly

And look at the responses of Blackwell and Fenney in Florida. They're totally running away! Why? It's so obvious! Other wise the republicans wouldn't have called everything a "conspericy theory" on the objection to the electoral votes. They're lock and center with McClellan about it and we all know who he gets his orders from....

[Just Me]

3. I am in TOTAL agreement with you!!!

Only those who seek to deceive would advocate a system that fails to produce verifiable accounting, period. There is no excuse whatsoever for failing to demand a hard copy back-up,...none.

[Junkdrawer]

4. "A Tale of Two Brothers: EVoting in the USA"...

Once upon a time there were two brothers: Bob and Todd Urosevich. In the 1980's, with the financial backing of the right-wing extremist Christian billionaire Howard Ahmanson, Bob and Todd founded a company called American Information Systems (AIS) that built voting machines. They were also certified to count votes. It is interesting to note that back then there was no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry. Even more interesting is the fact that this is still true today. Not even the Federal Election Commission (FEC) has a complete list of all the companies that count votes in U.S. elections.


Voting Fraud in the USA
Did you know....

80% of all votes in America are counted by o­nly two companies: Diebold and ES&S.

There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.

The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.

The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

35% of ES&S is owned by Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, who became Senator based o­n votes counted by ES&S machines.

....


http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=9751&fcategory_desc=E-Voting%20Machines%20/%20Vote%20Integrity

And I'll add:

Isn't it a coincidence that about the time that Diebold & ES&S take market share, RW Republicans start winning election after election?

[bpilgrim]

19. This has become inflammatory.

which is a very good thing as it brings much needed sun light to a critical issue.

if the clintons and others of their stature in leadership roles today decided to champion this issue it certainly would get a lot more sunlight than it gets today.

how long must we wait for our leadership to 'get it' :shrug:

peace

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Yep

And every irregularity favors Bush. Hmm. Now if it was the democrats stealing as they claim we do it too why would all the favors (every single damn one) go in Bush's favor? Duh.

[ariellyn]

5. Excellent post. The fact that they don't want verifiable voting

is proof enough for me. Why would any upstanding American citizen not want verifiable votes?

[bpilgrim]

20. even your average republican gets it... this is a nonpartisan and PATRIOT

major issue that anyone in their right mind could get behind (0 negatives) so i really don't get why our leadership has shied away from this UNIFYING opportunity :shrug:

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/bbv/cspan-repub_caller-paper-trail.mp3

peace

[Lars39]

6. Lack of transparency and unwillingness to have transparency

should be enough to galvanize folks, but sadly it's not.

[Spacemom]

7. I was discussing this with my son the other day

(He's 9) He asked, "What's wrong with paper and pencil?" I may be biased, but I think he's a smart kid. :D

I sure hope we fix things before he's old enough to have his vote stolen. :eyes:

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Here what we do

is use a permanent sharpie pen and bubble in the circle by the person we want to choose and if for some reason you mess up you get two other tries. :shrug: We've never had any problems. Last month we voted for the top two people for mayor and we knew the next afternoon. :shrug: We vote tomorrow and will probably know by Wednesday our new mayor. It's very easy to read and count and easy for the elderly people.

[clem_c_rock]

8. Excellent - I'm a computer programmer and it takes about 1 month

basic computer knowlege to realize:

#1. Making an electronic computer voting system is not a difficult piece
of software. The browser you're viewing this forum in is about
2 million light years more complex.

#2. Diebold machines are build on Windows 95 and Windows 98 platforms.
MICROSOFT THEMSELVES WILL TELL YOU TO NEVER USE THESE PLATFORMS IN
ANY SITUATIOIN INVOLVING SECURITY.

The fact that you can rig a voting machine this easily proves it's built for fraud:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm#password

Any CNN sucking DU'ers want to still argue that that election wasn't stolen, please go through and argue these points:

http://nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html

[redqueen]

9. Recommended... GREAT post!

:applause:

[MelissaB]

10. Excellent post! Yes, indeed!

You are getting a standing ovation at my house.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Wilms]

11. kick n/t

[jen4clark]

12. Kick!!

:applause:

[CrispyQ]

13. This is the most critical issue to our democracy at this point in time!

Corporate Personhood has been the bee in my bonnet for some time now & will continue to be so, but BBV is even more critical. We'll never have a chance to elect someone who might do something about corporate personhood if we don't have fair elections.

I cannot believe what my country has become. Also, I am so ashamed of the average American who doesn't care about any significant issue as long as the malls are open & "Survivor" is on.

How fucking hungry & cold do the fucking sheeple have to be before they'll wake up? And will there be anything worth salvaging when they finally do? Forgive my profanity, but I am fed up to my eyeballs with the American public. And I realize the media is also to blame, but if those of us at DU can take the time to source out more reliable news sources, the sheeple could do it too if they weren't so fucking fat, lazy & complacent.

Whew! I'm in a mood today! :nuke:

[SoCalDem]

14. I have proffered just such a ballot..numerous times

:)

It involves a minor switch, which would not matter much anyway, since most states run elections every year anyway for this and that..

The main elements are :

Nationally held office elections in even years.No propositions, local candidates..just the congress/senate, and every 4 years president

The ballot would be 5 x 7 card stock with just those 3 offices on it.

names alphabetically with a check-box immediately in front of the name..indelible sharpie pen..

mark your X..

Counting would be a breeze..it would be cheap to print, and easy to store in case of a recount.

I would prefer to hire extra humans on election day, than to spend billions on unverifiable vapor machines owned by republicans..

[BeFree]

21. Great idea, SoCalDem

But it's too simple, and doesn't allow any shenannigans....

We need some flexibility in our elections because elections should be as complicated as possible. Your index card with just the three most important votes listed would bring too much certainty and be damn near impossible to hack.

Back to the drawing board, eh?

[SoCalDem]

34. You are right.. too simple.. We all know

that street-riots result when the wrong city commissioner gets "elected" or Proposition X gets defeated..:sarcasm:

My simple plan would take all the nonsense out of it :(

Republicans "should" love it though.. we all know how they love the "straight up or down vote" thing:evilgrin:

[BeFree]

38. Seriously, great idea

...an idea that will be presented to my local democratic party.

As far as I can tell, the locals here are ready to demand paper ballots. Let's see if your simple solution gets any arguments.

[SoCalDem]

39. City-county-state elections would be in "odd" years, so

they get the attention they deserve, and are not lost in the shuffle of a national feeding frenzy.. (sell it that way :)..)

[BeFree]

40. Good idea, but,,,

...I'm not going to try and change things too much. Just try to get the Pres., US Senator, and House members placed on the index cards. I'll leave the rest of it for later.

Otherwise I know what the answer would be... But I think they'd go for the three races idea.

[PATRICK]

36. Ballots could include Braille aids to guide

the blind with a much better chance of their vote actually counting than destroying democracy to make the process elctronically convenient.

[SoCalDem]

37. Exactly.. The "handicapped" angle is a smoke screen

Handicapped people have always been able to vote. Does anyone really believe that a trusted family memeber or friend would NOT vote the way their handicapped friend/relative wanted??

Absentee ballots (my plan) would have to be RECEIVED ONE WEEK prior to the election, and the voted COUNTED AND RECORDED BEFORE the election.

Absentee ballots for MY ballot would be easy since we all know exactly WHO is running...MONTHS IN ADVANCE.. there would be NO reason for them NOT to be sent out, and received by SEPTEMBER.. That would give people plenty of times to make 2 or 3 decisions..

[earth mom]

15. KICK! eom

[loudsue]

17. Hell yeah!! Great post!

Well reasoned, and a good punch to it! :woohoo:

Nominated for GREATEST page!

:kick::kick::kick:

[intheflow]

18. Appreicated this post so much, I nominated it.

thank you for the reminder! :kick:

[Unforgiven]

22. Oh Hell Yea!

Kick this thread!!!!

[Octafish]

23. People get receipts for their order at Burger King.

That's something they do for each customer: They create a hard copy of the transaction.

It's a smart thing to do.

Voting is the most important thing the average citizen can do for his or her country.

Extraordinary Americans have given their lives to make it so.

The least the government can do is give everyone an accounting of how that is cast.

Make certain every vote is counted -- that is the least the government can do.



Especially these bedwetting chicken-hawk bastard neocons.

[Laurab]

24. Excellent post - thank you! n/t

:kick:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. Your post is right on the money! Well done!

[AuntiBush]

30. A Simple Recipt - A Simple Printout is all that would be needed.

But you're last line clearly, and plainly states "why" they'd fight not to have an honest ballot practice.

It would throw them back into the stone ages. Like the rocks they crawled out from under.

[Robeson]

31. You're right, but many elections have been rigged in this country....

...the Repugs have just introduced a new way of doing it. I'm starting to think that the political system has always been against fair elections. The fact that a large element of the populous is now aware of the corruptness of our political system, has put these "politics as usual" guys into a corner, or at least, into the light. But will they change, or will both parties leaders insist on fair actual elections? I don't know.

The election of 1876 was just - if not more - corrupt than what is done now. Only now, they can accomplish it with more stealth, such as the use of computers. Back then, the party who paid the most bribes to election board officials, could take the election. If anything, a cursory knowledge of U.S. history, provides examples that elections being rigged, are part of this country's history. Its just that grammar schools and high school history classes, don't like to mention those untidy bits of history, when they're trying to brainwash the populous into worshipping our "system".

[Vektor]

32. DAMN RIGHT SKIPPY!

That's about the size of it, isn't it? "Proof" or not - the election system sucks, and it is unacceptable.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[dandrhesse]

33. Please send this to all Republican Senate members

This should be distributed far and wide. Commonsense approach to a "technical" problem that people are convinced is too "complicated" to figure out. The telling sign for me is whenever a Republican starts a speech with "This is a complicated issue", or "Let me explain how the process works" as if we are morons and don't "get it".

While canvassing a voter told me that they watched the debates and thought Kerry clearly won. Then they heard all the spin on TV for a week and started to wonder about their own frame of mind and their ability to decipher what was really being said.

This is so common, especially among people who don't have a lot of confidence in their own "reasoning capabilities" or that think politics is like law and needs "experts" to tell them what is what.

It isn't rocket science and but politicians often try to make it seem that way so folks will think that ordinary people can't possibly understand what is going on. I told the voter to trust her gut and her eyes. If she watched the debate and thought that Kerry easily won then that is what happened and don't let anyone tell you differently.

She thanked me and said that she had felt like she was losing it, because what she kept hearing didn't jibe with what she saw. That is the effect of propaganda and that is exactly why it should be prosecuted.

[PATRICK]

35. The final conclusion also need not stand alone

They also are on record and in violation of past accords for abuses in vote suppression, new "Jim Crow" strategies based on criminal records, deliberate sloppiness and inadequacies selectively affecting the opposition, slanting all reforms to quid pro quo(at least) instead of fairness or legality or increasing the voting electorate.

In fact anything that encourages all people to vote equally, anything that eliminates money influence, any reform without a loophole or a big advantage is fought tooth and nail.

That demonstrates not only that the GOP intends to fight a real voting environment but that it does so out of fear and recognition it cannot win a real majority of the votes even with other large advantages of money, business, corporate media and an organized fanatical base. This type of fear must always lead to increased tyranny. It cannot stop ever because it creates a deeper anti-GOP resentment among an even greater majority of Americans who must never be allowed an outlet or a focus. This too, even with a despicable Democratic avoidance of confrontation or populism where it hurts the most- at the top.

The big picture is that now, yes now, despite the remains of honest democracy in large portions of the system, we are living in an illegitimate government and practical dictatorship. If you need to have
all those dramatic and personal frills of repression to convince you, then you are probably part of it already but wrongly think you are one of the "us". The next step that is not being voiced aloud much is the death of the sham, the whole constitutional republic since the weight of lies makes it unsustainable except as a mocking illusion. Yet a profitable vestige would remain for appearances as long as the money holds out.

[Bluesplayer]

41. Casinos

Put the casino industry in charge of the elections - they never make a mistake on their counts!

[KittyWampus]

42. True, But There's A Vast Difference Between Us Knowing The Election

was stolen and PROVING IT IN A COURT OF LAW.

[In Truth We Trust]

43. Paper ballots NOW!!!! Hand counts Now!!!!! n/t

[natrat]

45. in my mind every time harry reid or scum biden etc. open

there mouths and do not mention this it is just more distraction These are not stupid people, they know exactly what's up . Almost like they are complicit. Really there is no other issue more important.

[Lone Pawn]

46. Yes. 99.5% of America, including the entire DNC,

which is composed entirely of very intelligent, well-educated lawyers and planners with access to not only all the information you have but quite a bit of internal information as well, whose entire jobs are to sit around and think about things of this manner, does not believe in ghosts.