Fineman: The race is on for the Un-Dean

[dave29]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/967382.asp?0cv=CA01

"CLARK HAS A lot of appeal, and potential, but his main attraction to party insiders and former Clintonistas — many of whom are joining up with the general — is that they see him as the man, perhaps the only man, to block Dean’s surge to the precipice of locking up the nomination. Party leaders — if there is such a thing — view Dean as a disaster waiting to happen in a race with President George W. Bush.

Even before Dean locked up the insurgent’s role, and turned it into an Internet-driven anti-war money machine, Democratic wise guys had pushed Sen. John Kerry forward as a consensus favorite to challenge Bush. But Kerry’s campaign has foundered, in part because of his vote in favor of the Iraq war (which most grassroots Democrats opposed) and because he has encountered the putative frontrunner’s problem of trying to be all things to all voters."

Interesting read on where Clark's support is coming from, and the fear of Howard Dean.

[Cocoa]

1. this is comforting to me

I really don't "get" Howard Dean yet, and my main worry is how Dean would do against Bush.

But stuff like this from people like Fineman and David Brooks really do assuage my concern. Makes me think the Dean threat is real to them. And his success at raising funds and creating supporters backs that up big-time.

[salin]

9. I think their fear has to do with

the ability at very low cost, of Dean (and his campaign) to build a broad campaign structure by, turning grassroots internet activism into statewide organizations. They know that Bush will out fundraise ANY democrat and be able to flood airwaves with ugly campaign adds and run devious push polls.

They also know that in race after race over the past 2 elections - even with these advantages often when they win - they barely win.

Thus a campaign that can mobilize people at low cost - can conserve resources and make them go further - and can run a very unpredictable (and thus hard to combat) campaign.

As other democrats become more savvy in this arena (and they will have to do so if they are to win the nomination), we will hear the same kind of moans targeting those candidates.

I think this has much more to do with the campaign and its success thus far, than it does about the particular candidate.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. Dean is already running against Bush

And he has created a new "base" made up of not typical liberal base voters, but moderates and swing voters as well...and even people who have never voted before at all. The only people who worry that Dean won't pummel Bush are people who don't realize that it's not really "ultra liberals" who are supporting Dean. I'm a registered Independent "swing voter" and the "ultra liberals" who normally make up the base are the minority at the meetups I go to. As it stands right now, if all Democrats backed Dean in the general combined with the new voters Dean has brought into the game...there is NO WAY Bush can beat him.

[HereSince1628]

2. Wow, all the club's philosophies in one statement

elitism:
"his main attraction to party insiders..."

living in the past:
"...and former Clintonistas...

must maintain party control by their elite group:
"they see him as the man...to block Dean’s surge

trickle down democracy...promotion of the concept that an elite groups opinion is more important than that of the party membership
"Party leaders view Dean as a disaster..."

belittle a successful innovative strategy they hadn't thought of:
"...before Dean locked up the insurgent’s role, and turned it into an Internet-driven anti-war money machine."

manage to prop a candidate's status via lack of success:
"Kerry’s campaign has foundered...because he has...the putative frontrunner’s problem"

[StandWatie]

3. good analysis

[Julien Sorel]

7. Raising money through the internet was McCain's

innovation in 2000, not Dean's in 2003. Dean invented the wheel, penicillin, split the atom, and will soon cure cancer as soon as he decides to get around to it, but McCain's 2000 campaign was the first to rely on the internet as a major source of funding.

[ShimokitaJer]

12. Get off your high horse, Billy

Your implication that Dean thinks he invented raising money on the internet is about as valid as the claim that Al Gore said he invented the internet.

How is this important to anyone?

[Julien Sorel]

13. I didn't say Dean said it.

But his followers sure do -- all the time.

[ShimokitaJer]

19. Well, if you want to pick nits

It was Dean's supporters who were the real innovators in ways of using the internet. It wasn't on Dean's initiative that MeetUps for Dean took off, that his speeches were made available over the internet, or that the blog for Dean became as influential as it did. Dean himself has said he was shocked at the results. The support for Dean grew out of an e-grassroots movement, much like those in favor of drafting a certain general who'd been teasing them all until today.

If you want to go back to the origins of raising money online, you're going to have to go a lot further back than McCain. Dean's supporters just did it a whole lot more effectively than anyone else. Using that kind of strength as a bludgeon to attack Dean sounds like nothing but sour grapes.

Clark is a strong candidate. Why do you feel the need to attack others instead of promoting him.

[Julien Sorel]

27. I wasn't talking about the Meetups, but the

money raising. Trying to drag extranuous stuff into it highlights the weakness of your position.

Raising money online is one thing; raising money for a political campaign is another. That innovation is credited to McCain, and considering his was the first high-profile campaign to do it, rightly so. In fact, since you want to get technical, Dean's entire campaign was lifted from McCain's 2000 run, not just the reliance on the internet for money, but the theme of being the 'angry outsider,' which is Dean's chief attraction.

As for 'attacking others,' I was actually responding to someone making an oblique attack on the Clark campaign, not 'attacking.' When I do attack, you'll know.

[ShimokitaJer]

30. He also stole the whole "running for president" idea from George Washingto

The Meetups and the internet community are what made the amazing extent of Dean supporters activism and money-raising possible. It has enabled a candidate who was considered "fringe" to become the frontrunner, despite the lack of support, and at times outright opposition, of the party "leadership." As I said before, this was not Dean's innovation but the innovation of a huge and growing number of Dean's followers, but it has inspired new respect for online campaigning and fostered many copycats among the formerly clueless.

Explain to me once again how this should be considered one of Dean's flaws.

I viewed the original post regarding Clark's supporters being threatened by Dean in particular as relatively uninteresting and almost definitely mistaken, but if it can raise this kind of reaction from a Clark supporter, I may have misjudged it.

[Julien Sorel]

43. It actually wouldn't surprise me to see one of your

fellow-travellers in the Kool-aid express claim that Dean invented campaigning. But until I see that claim made, you can leave the General Washington remarks out.

Unfortunately for you, I never discussed the Meetups. It was the internet fund raising I brought up; if you want to argue about Dean's brilliance in using the Meetups be my guest, but you'll be arguing against yourself. This is the second time I've had to point this out to you...

Explain to me once again how this should be considered one of Dean's flaws.

Show me where I said it was? In fact, show me where I said anything in this thread negative about Dean himself? It is the irrationality of his followers, a number you just struggled to include yourself among, that I count as a flaw; Dean himself I have only one issue with, which I haven't discussed in this thread.

I viewed the original post regarding Clark's supporters being threatened by Dean in particular as relatively uninteresting and almost definitely mistaken, but if it can raise this kind of reaction from a Clark supporter, I may have misjudged it.

When you are able to stop repeating irrelivancies like the Meetups and George Washington, maybe I'll consider your judgment worth bothering about :-)

[HereSince1628]

14. Well, perhaps I should have said

bitter because Dean doesn't rely, like them, on the practices of the past. But I had already used that on an earlier point.

And I don't think that you have to invent something to be innovative.
Inventive would mean first, innovative implies trying out new things. For example, many college's adopt the same innovative approaches to teaching math, English, etc.

[Sterling]

45. Are you aware your Gif is of a Tank with the letters MIC painted on it?

of a Tank with the letters MIC painted on it? And it is getting ready to attack DC?


Military Industrial Complex?

I think the irony is thick. People who are wary of Clark are afraid he is another war cheerleader and puppet of the MIC. Maybe you should change the photo. Or you can leave it up for a good laugh.


I thought at first it was a joke.

[AverageJoe]

4. I'll support the nominee

with every fiber of my being. Just wanted to make that clear up front. Even if it's Joe Lieberman, I'll be behind him 100 percent. Hell, even if it's Charlie Manson--just so long as it's not Bush.

I say this because I want to make it clear that I'm a Dean supporter now, but won't pout if another candidate gets the nod. And because I have a question:

Why in the heck would Dean be a disaster against Bush? He's smart, articulate, accomplished and has a proven ability to campaign effectively.

Please, someone explain Dean's huge liability to me. I don't get it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. Pit one ex-governor WASP with little prior experience in politics

against another and ....?

[AverageJoe]

11. Like Bill Clinton

you mean? Or Jimmy Carter? Hmmm. Dunno :shrug:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. Bill Clinton wasn't a WASP, and Jimmy Carter sure as shit wasn't either

Clinton was the boy from a town called "Hope", and Carter was the peanut farmer from Plains, Ga. (who also happened to serve in the navy).
Dean is the boy from.... Park Avenue! SO take your small state governor comparisons and plug them into the GW Bush/Howard Brush Dean candidate comparison program (version 1.0). And quit living in fantasy land.

[AverageJoe]

20. Don't mean to quibble

but I think both of these former presidents are white, anglo-saxon protestants...

I still don't get your point, but maybe I'm dumb.

And why so snappish, friend NYfM?

[HereSince1628]

10. It seems that Dean's greatest liability is a viable candidacy

Notice that by making the statement this way, they suggest that only 2 candidates are in the race to win the Democratic nomination.

And I have to admit their spin-guys are almost good, if a little too obvious. To load a little clip with that much message takes practice.

[sendero]

37. he's an outsider....

.... those people are being disingenuous when they say Dean is "a disaster waiting to happen".

What they mean is "he's not our guy, he's not going to toe our line".

I think Clark may well steal Dean's thunder and if so, so be it - I'll line up behind anyone who gets the nom.

But a lot of the crap you read about Dean is just spin, spin, and more spin.

[tjdee]

40. Dean is not an outsider! Oy!

How is a former DLC member and head of the Democratic Governors' Association AND the National Governors' Association an outsider?

He used to take Evan Bayh's wife to various functions, so he was obviously out and about.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me how Howard Dean is an outsider? He has connections to the political inside as much as anyone else. Maybe he doesn't travel in Clinton's circles, but it's not like he's Joe Schmo from Peoria running for president. Is it because he didn't have any insider MONEY? Here's an idea, maybe the insiders didn't back him because they didn't think he would win. That doesn't make him an outsider, though. Oy.

[CWebster]

5. John Nichols' view

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030929&s=nichols

[Woodstock]

8. I loved this part:

While the other candidates continue to position themselves as the progressive populist (Kucinich), the mainstream liberal (Kerry), labor's champion (Gephardt), the women's rights contender (Moseley Braun), the civil rights contender (the Rev. Al Sharpton), the vaguely Clintonesque Southerner (North Carolina Senator John Edwards) the serious senior senator (Florida's Bob Graham) or the Democrat even a Republican could love (Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman), Dean is satisfied to run as the guy who really, really wants to put it to Bush.

[Cha]

41. I love John Nichols, period. That is so cool..gotta remember

that line! :toast:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. Kucinich's misery at the expense of Dean is proof "looks" count

I believe Dennis is not getting the support he deserves because "physical" characteristics of a candidate DO in fact matter:
He is shorter than Dean, not as good looking, and does not have a good speaking voice.
So if you believe there is an ounce of credibility to that postulation, then the next logical quesiton is:
Who is taller, has a better speaking voice, and is better looking than Dean?

[AverageJoe]

23. Who is taller, has a better speaking voice and is better looking than Dean

Me! (Blush.)

Well, as far as any of you know, anyhow.

:smoke:

[CWebster]

24. It is a combination of things that

work in the moment.

Because you can't get more Hollywood typecast than Edwards and he isn't working.

Something doesn't work for Kucinich, I am not sure what it is, but it doesn't seem to be his moment.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

33. He doesn't appear "presidential" to the voters

and I am sure that's what it is.

[chimpymustgo]

29. John Reid Edwards.

n/t

[mlawson]

44. No kidding, looks count!!!!

That is why JFK beat Nixon in 1960. It's one big reason why Edwards beat Sen Faircloth in 1998.

Millions actually do vote on looks. This is a huge reason why the 2004 team should be Edwards / Dean. Or Dean / Edwards, if you prefer.

[chimpymustgo]

46. Edwards/Clark. The dreamy team...

nt

[Larkspur]

28. This is why Dean will prevail over Clark

...Minnesota, State Senator Scott Dibble, a progressive Democrat who was close to the late Senator Paul Wellstone and who now co-chairs Dean's campaign in that state, credits Dean's web-savvy campaign for bringing thousands of new people--especially young voters--into the process. "I just think that what Dean has done so far suggests that he knows how to put together a campaign that will build the Democratic base, and that's what we need to do if we're going to beat Bush," says Dibble. "Dean's gotten this far by running a campaign that's smarter, better at organizing and better at going after Bush. That's a big part of why I'm with him."

[Frederic Bastiat]

16. Clark will hurt Dean

Clark can negate one of the strengths that many of the candidates have(ie Kerry-military, Edwards-southerner) but he will take 2 of the advantages that Dean appears to have with his supporters-anti-war and outsider.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. bingo

polls showing a contrary view notwithstanding.

[leftwingnut]

22. ok lets relax.....

i get it...clark looks like friggin' SUPERMAN today!!! i wanna see a debate...he doesn't have any 'political' experience...

dean/clark '04

[LizW]

26. Clark is an outsider?

How do you figure?

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. Wrong

The anti-war thing is just what got people to look at Dean. They stuck with him because he knows how to balance a budget, has a proven record on delivering health coverage to the uninsured, signed Civil Unions, reduced child abuse and neglect, paid off the state's debt, built up a huge surplus for the state...and much more. And when did Clark do any of those things? He's an outsider with a nice uniform who was against the war. Dean is an outsider, a doctor who was against the war...PLUS all the above listed qualities. Clark isn't going to be taking any substantial votes from Dean. He's going to devastate Kerry, though, which I'm all for since I can't stand him anymore. Hooray for Clark entering the race and making a Dean victory even harder for anyone to prevent! WOO HOO Clark!

[Sterling]

48. I agree he hurts Kerry way more.

No one that was anti war thinks Clark was anti war.

[Sterling]

47. I don't think the anti war crowd buys it.

Not many anti war folk feel very good about his enthusiastic cheerleading during the invasion. The word is out Clark is not anti war.

[Larkspur]

21. If Clark is Clinton's stooge, then it will backfire on Clark

Dean is leading an populist army against the chicanery that is sick of Clinton style politics. Those politics worked for Bill Clinton only, but not for any other politician -- see 2002 election fiasco. While Dean used a variation of those politics successfully in Vermont, Dean adapts with the times and like a good leader changes strategy to meet the needs of the day.

And if Clinton is behind Clark's run to stop Dean, isn't he screwing the Dem Party, like he screwed Hillary with Monica?

[CWebster]

25. Ouuuuuuuu

nice.

[Starpass]

31. There seems to be a total overblown view of Dean/Dean supporters

Yep, they are manning the internet and getting bucks to get their boy nominated. But it is such a small spit in the bucket compared to having to appeal to that big mass of people out there. You talk about a small minority of people thinking they have the pulse of the nation in their pocket. It just isn't so. The nation is turning against Bush BUT they are NOT rushing to Howard (Howard Who??). Trust the big boys---one thing they know is politics and they aren't afraid of Dean because he will bring such awesome different government to DC. Hell, he'll be cozing up into beds that will make Dems mouths drop! But, they know they just can't sell this guy. Let him stand in front of the lights, camera rolling and say "I'm Howard and I use to run Vermont" and watch people fall out of their chairs laughing. Texas had a 'ring' to it; Vermont doesn't. About the only thing you could do to go one lower than Vermont is to say "governor of RI"! Do you see how it instantly becomes a cartoon??? Howard sounds like George did a couple years ago in the "international smarts" department; thus George will do much better against him in a debate on the issue. It actually makes George look better. We need to get someone with bigger credentials and a bigger presence and more than zinging one liners about Bush. We need a statesman to go against an idiot cowboy. We don't need the Vermont version of the same cowboy!!!!

[Larkspur]

32. And us Dean supporters are already working to get the undecides to Dean

I've starting going door-to-door in my rural neighborhood passing out flyers and chatting with my neighbors. This is how Dean will win -- door-to-door, person-by-person.

[chimpymustgo]

34. Right on, Starpass.

This thing is just heating up, but the stop-Dean movement is in full swing. Thankfully.

[sendero]

39. nonsense n/t

n/t

[Cha]

42. And No vision!

[NNN0LHI]

36. Fineman blows n/t