Do we really want Wesley Clark?

[Cascadian]

I am not doubting the man's eloquence and intelligence, but I feel very compelled to raise serious questions about a man who still strikes me as a loose cannon. Remember, he wanted to confront the Russians (our allies!) at the Pristina airport in Kosovo. I am also worried that the Democrats are going to do the same damn thing that the Republicans did when following Bush. Just the vagueness of it all! Does anybody feel the same way as I do?

I am concerned that the Democrats are going to make a mistake in nominating this guy. What if there is some crisis with a rogue state like North Korea? Is President Clark going to order a nuclear strike on Pyongyang? I still see many vague points in supporting Clark. I have read some things about him but I am still not convinced.


I honestly think Howard Dean should get him on his team and who knows? When Dean is elected, he should have Clark as a Secretary of Defense. But as President, I am not so sure.

John

[CWebster]

1. And they complain that Dean is a rookie.

Asked if he was ready to start telling Americans about his position on domestic issues, Clark said, "I'll do my best, but there will be a lot of things that I don't know right away."

"I want to learn," he said. "I've got a whole period of time. I've got to go around America. I want to talk to people about the issues.

[Cascadian]

5. Well he better hurry up!

If he wants the job. I want somebody who knows what he is talking about.

John

[DoveTurnedHawk]

36. What's Wrong With This Response?

He'll do his best. He's open-minded. He isn't so arrogant as to presume he has all of the answers right away.

DTH

[NNN0LHI]

2. The Russians are not nor have they ever been our allies! Ever

Trust me on this one.

Don

[Cascadian]

4. They aren't our enemies either.

I would say the relationship with Russia is a love/hate relationship. Kind of like France with America.


John

[CentristDemocrat]

6. Um, no.

France like Russia? Don't ya know your US history, bub?

[NNN0LHI]

7. Nothing at all like France with America. I beg to differ here

France does not have megatons worth of nuclear warheads ready to fly and destroy our country at a moments notice. Russia does.

Don

[MidwestTransplant]

9. I loved when Gore was attacked for being too close with

Russia. Then Bush "looked into Putin's sole" and they became our allies. Of course not really, they have an interest in undermining American hegemony.

[JVS]

32. They certainly did more to defeat the Nazis than we did

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Ever heard of World War 2?

For every American who died, somewhere around 65 Soviets did. They were responsible for something like 88% of the German casualties.

The Provisional Government of Russia was our Ally in World War 1 from our entry until the Bolshevik Revolution.

Sure, they were against us on Serbia, but their support of Serbia is basically what caused World War 1 to break out from being a small second Balkan War; they're old ethnic brothers.

Okay, so I'm obfuscating the point, but ya made that big ol' absolute statement...

[DoNotRefill]

50. Some Russians were our allies...

that's why we invaded Russia after the First World War...

Given that Russia has had American troops invade it, I wonder why they think we don't like them... I guess they're just paranoid... :eyes:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

3. I do

Kucinich is my favorite candidate. If he isn't a serious contender by my primary, I'm probably going to vote for Clark (Gephardt was my previous second choice).

"Loose cannon" - gimme a break. Howard Dean is worthless, and I don't want 4 more years of Bush because a bunch of rich white liberals like Dean's feel good speeches. "But Dean has *the music* man!" Please, this is serious.

[Kolesar]

12. those "rich white liberals" you cite are the Democratic party activists

Please quit mocking them like they are ignorant newbies.

[melissinha]

13. I just want the GOP Machine out

This may be naive of me but as long as we can determine that Clarke does align himself well with Democratic Party.... I don't CARE....I want to back a pony that can win..... plain and simple.... We gotta get Shrub out at all costs. He was no good for Texas he is DEFINITELY worse for the country.

But we'll have to really see with Clarke...

[karlschneider]

16. Yep, you've struck the spike on its cranium. The naked truth is that

just about anyone would be an improvement over the bastard squatting in the White House right now.

[arendt]

17. Will you knock off the "rich white liberals" stuff?

I don't have a case of the liberal "guilts". So don't expect
any mercy from me.

I fail to see why a man who engages the best-educated,
genuinely compassionate people gets labelled as "only
appealing to the rich."

You have no conception of "the rich". The rich are dripping
in money. They can blow a million bucks on nothing, and
not feel it. The rich never worked a real job (as opposed to
some financial ripoff post or some CEO-track shmooz-fest)
in their lives.

The people who like Dean still work for a living. They may
make a decent wage, but the majority of them are not
filthy rich. Having worked, they despise *'s phony resume,
and his phony management style, and the Dilbert style
management of the GOP by the PNAC crowd. Having
gotten clobbered by Bush's economic downsizing, they
not only have motive to resist him; they have the most
economic means available. You want to throw the liberals
overboard? You are throwing away about 80% of the
non-corporate funding of the Democratic Party. Not too
smart, I think.

BTW, should all us liberals go kill ourselves? I mean, you
piss on them for supporting Dean. If Kucinich is the nominee,
would you piss on them for supporting Kucinich? Which
do you hate more, Dean or his supporters? Enquiring
minds want to know.

In America today, most of the middle class has been
downgraded into working class, and a lot of the working
class has been pushed into poverty.

You make the same mistake calling Dean's supporters' "rich",
as pundits make when the call the Democratic Party "liberal".
The ground rules have changed. The pundits are talking about
a 1950s wealth distribution. But, we now have a Victorian-
era wealth distribution, with a few super rich, about 10% middle
class, and the lower 90% shopping at Wal Mart. The people
you are calling rich are the 9% who are still middle class,
but not super rich.

I suggest you educate yourself about economics.

arendt

on edit: added 2nd last sentence (The people you are calling
rich...)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

24. wow, a perfect example of the problem

Upper middle class parents send their kid to a private college. There, the kid hooks up with some "radical" political group and starts trashing the military. Meanwhile, the kids of blue collar parents join the army, and get sent to clean up the mess that the corporations cause in the third world - now staffed at the top level by those grown up rich white liberals - and get shit all over by the new crop of rich white liberals calling them baby killers, until they can climb to the top ranks of corporate America.

Rich liberals can vote and give money, after that I don't give a damn about them. That's their attitude towards me, why should I treat them any differently?


"I fail to see why a man who engages the best-educated,
genuinely compassionate people gets labelled as "only
appealing to the rich.""

Best educated at those private schools I guess. So well educated they keep telling us that NAFTA will be good for us in the long run, and we'll all get jobs as computer programmers or in the "service industry" (read servant industry). They drip with compassion as they pass out pink slips. Yah, whatever.

"The ground rules have changed. The pundits are talking about
a 1950s wealth distribution. But, we now have a Victorian-
era wealth distribution, with a few super rich, about 10% middle
class, and the lower 90% shopping at Wal Mart."

Yes, thank you rich white neo-liberals who gave us NAFTA and GATT. Now why would I want Dean, who is the perfect example of rich white neo-liberal NAFTA pimps?

"I suggest you educate yourself about economics."

Perfect example of your priviledged attitude. Just give money, vote for Clark or Kucinich, and we'll get to your concerns after the election. Trust us, we're compassionate. I really care what you think!

[arendt]

35. Your version of reality is as delusional as the PNAC's

> Upper middle class parents send their kid to a private college.

Nice straw man. Try my real-life story:

Child of secretary and school janitor gets scholarships to good
schools. Get's Ph.D. Gets good job. Remembers who got him
the scholarships. Also remembers who made him currently
unemployed.

> Best educated at those private schools I guess.

Yeah, the University of Illinois is a private school. Right.

> Yes, thank you rich white neo-liberals who gave us NAFTA and GATT.

What are you smoking, besides your brain? Have you read my
posts at this site? I am no neoliberal.

>>"I suggest you educate yourself about economics."

> Perfect example of your priviledged attitude.

Perfect example of "Ignorance is Strength". What will
you tell us next? That only true peasants are entitled to
run the country, ala the Bolsheviks?

Why don't you take that chip on your shoulder and shove
it? You'll feel better, and you will have an excuse for all
the bile and hatred you spew.

arendt

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

37. I'm sorry arendt, I didn't mean to be divisive

We welcome PhDs in our Democratic party. (According to Rove, that's the Democrats main constituency :) Please vote for Clark or Kucinich, and send them money!

After the election, we'll have a focus group on your concerns. Thanks!

[Kolesar]

8. Clark: "Bush has drawn his sword and cannot back down from Iraq"

Clark scared me during Resident Bush's belligerent run up to the attack on Iraq. Clark spoke this romantic rhetoric that Bush was compelled to attack, having drawn his sword. That just seemed a little too eager and a lot too creepy for me. There were other choices then.

Now a member of the Pentagon establishment wants to come out of political nowhere and run my country. Clark scares me. He scares me a lot.

[LuLu550]

21. Clark was against the war in Iraq...

read what Michael Mooore has to say about him...

[returnable]

31. Are you sure it was Clark?

He was very skeptical of the Iraq campaign from the beginning and always argued for restraint.

Perhaps you are thinking of the more gung-ho General Barry McCaffrey, who was also quite visible on the news channels during the Iraq build up.

If you had a link to that quote, that'd be great.

[Pepperbelly]

46. I remember when he said it ...

and I knew he was right.

Do you actually remember what had happened when that remark was made? Bonehead was past saber-rattling and was putting soldiers in place. At some point, Bonehead's bellicosity made it impossible for Bonehead not to carry through with what he had threatened or else American DIPLOMACY would lose all credibility. Of course, what is really unfortunate is that we found ourselves in that position ONLY because of Bonehead's mangling of the entire process. That was also what Clark found unfortunate but unless one sits in the Oval Office, all one can do is evaluate what is done.

[jayfish]

53. A Little To Literal, Don't Ya Think?

I think he was trying to inculcate the fact that by Shruya had boxed himself into a corner and had no choice to attack.

Jay

[OKNancy]

10. Why not just cool down

and let the primary process unfold. I'm sure many of the questions will be answered.

Personally, I'd want someone like Clark in a situation like you describe with North Korea. He has said many times - war is the LAST alternative. He has also stress working with other countries to solve problems instead of " running around like a cowboy".

[quinnox]

11. I would take Clark over Dean

7 days a week, it would be a much better chance for the Dems to win.

[Cascadian]

18. Republican loose cannon vs Democrat loose cannon!

Great! That may push me to vote a third party candidate then!

World War III anybody?



John

[Pepperbelly]

47. I believe that ....

war will be far less likely under Clark's leadership than that of any of the other candidates running for the office.

[Starpass]

14. No--I would prefer 4 more years of Bush

Dean should have been such a "loose cannon"!!---well, actually Dean IS a loose cannon and that is what is going to eventually shoot both his feet off. I don't want another chest thumping, arrogant Bush. We don't need THAT and neither does this nation nor the world community. We need a leader, statesman, person experienced in international circles. I've watched these "appearances" of the candidates and I fail to see where Dean is saying things so "radically different". He's saying the same things others are and sometimes a lot less. The press just seems to want to cover Howard rather than the others (geeee, I can't understand why).

[Cascadian]

22. I would rather have a candidate unafraid of confronting Bush.

Why do people still support those who talk the talk but their actions are the opposite? I don't want a Bush or GOP lite! I cannot and will not! I know Dean is no lefty either but he is much better than the other people running now Clark included though he hasn't announced yet!

John

[Blue_Chill]

15. I trust Clark to make the right choices on Security

He knows what he's doing when it comes to the military.

[Cascadian]

20. Wesley Clark would make a great Secretary of Defense

In a Howard Dean administration anyway. Why not stick a former military man with military affairs? Would make a great fit!


John

[Blue_Chill]

27. Because politicians don't know how to do anything

other then raise money. I'd like a change for at least four years.

[otohara]

19. Someone Who Was Way Cozy With Pentagon???

scares the hell out of me.

[Pastiche423]

26. ME TOO!!!

Actually, it terrifies me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

39. Otohara, He Was Relieved Early by Cohen Because He WASN'T Cozy

enough with the Pentagon and its top brass. He challenged them, went to the public on ground troops, and had fights with Cohen.

He is NOT a military establishment guy.

DTH

[otohara]

55. Jury Is Still Out For Me

He's spent way too many years in a uniform. He towed the military line to get where he got.

Hey if he wins the primary, I'm there - I can't vote in a primary next year. Colorado has no money and we don't count.

Get your guy elected, I'll vote for Anyone But Bush

[IranianDemocrat]

41. Have you ever heard the guy talk?

Or do you just see the title General and rush to judgement?

[otohara]

54. Yeah That's What I Do, Rush To Judgement

all the time, over and over - can't stop myself. Somebody STOP me!

Sheesh

[meegbear]

23. When dean is elected?!?

Nice to read an unbiased thought about another candidate.

[catpower2000]

25. Try this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=347249

[tjdee]

28. Read Howard Dean's statements on Iran and Syria, then get back to me.

Clark would be no more likely to nuke Pyongyang :eyes: than anybody else.

I suggest you learn more about the guy before labeling him a loose cannon. What in his past would lead you to believe he's trigger happy?

[Pastiche423]

29. Pristina Airport

[returnable]

33. The Airport Story©

He asked the British to block the runways.

That's not exactly dropping the Big One on Moscow.

[Pepperbelly]

48. both the far righties AND the far lefties never tire of flailing this old

saw even when the facts have been pointed out to them time after time after time.

[Must_B_Free]

30. I want no military person near the oval orifice.

seeing clark in fatigues was the capper.
No way. No how. No military man.

[thebeaglehaslanded]

34. Amen! No military careerist in the White House!

Especially one who milks the media, has no domestic experience, still has to examine the issues, and seems to be on a big ego trip. Clark's not the man to run this country and reverse all the damage Chimpy & Co. have done.

[Dookus]

40. right!

God forbid the commander in chief of the largest military force in the history of the world should have any actual experience with it.

The civilians running things now managed to fuck things up pretty good. Military doesn't equal militaristic.

[Bread and Circus]

44. Bigoted statement.

How can you defend that kind of a statement?

What the hell is wrong with the far left?

Do you realize that FDR (a great Democrat) was
the president during WW2? No he was not a general,
but still. Being a liberal and a Democrat does not
mean you have to be anti-military.

Perpetuating the stereotype of Democrats/Liberals
hating the military only puts more Republicans in
power. Is that what we want?

[Terwilliger]

51. yes, because everything Republicans say is true

right?

I dont like the military because they go off and kill people and they should be accountable and they're not and militray Generals get called up to be president BECAUSE WE ARENT ALREADY OVER-MILITARIZED ENOUGH!

[Pepperbelly]

49. personally ...

I spent time in the military and knew many, many kind decent people who did the same. I think this has to rank among the most ludicrous statements I have ever read. Military people have already signalled a committment to something past their own comfort, safety and personal enrichment, a committment to the country, and they proved it rather than just talking about it.

To think that some citizen would EXCLUDE me from the highest office in the land BECAUSE I defended the country is insulting and I suspect organic thought difficulties in the process that arrived at it.

[Kahuna]

38. The Russians were not our allies at that time. They opposed..

the war. And attempted to hinder our actions to halt ethnic cleansing. I don't know if all of the news accounts are true. And I'm sure that the WWIII language is hyperbole because who else was going to join Russia against the U.S. if it had come to that? General Jackson sounds like a crybaby to me using idiotic language like that.

[Donna Zen]

60. According to Clark's son

"He didn't order Jackson to start WWIII by attacking the Russians at Pristina airfield - he ordered Jackson to have our choppers land on the air strip before the Russians arrived and therefore deny them the ability to land the thousands of troops they were attempting to airlift in. Luckily, Bulgaria came through at the last instant and closed their airspace to the Russians."

To explain futher - from Clark's book "Waging Modern War"

The danger was that if the Russians got in first, they would claim their sector, and then we would have lost NATO control over the mission. I had closely observed the double standard the Russians had applied while working for us in the Bosnia mission. They took care of the Serbs, passing them information, tipping them off to any of our operations, and generally doing their best to look after their "fellow Slavs" while keeping up the pretense of full cooperation with us. And in Bosnia we hadn't given them their own sector. If they had their own sector in Kosovo, they would run it as a serperate mission, and Kosovo would be effectively partitioned. page 377

[Bread and Circus]

43. Yes!

At least many of us do.

[QC]

45. Do we really want 500 threads on the same topic?

[Clark Can WIN]

52. Yes!

We do. LOL

:hi:

[wegottem]

56. candidate

will you people quit your picking when the guy wiped his ass last. Give me a fucking candidate lets get on with getting the fucker Bushky out of the white house, and it would suit me out of the country. You wont have a thing to do withwho is the candidate only the Democrate conviction and politics. Please just give me one (1)

[mykpart]

57. George Washington was a general

and he made a pretty good president. And the pictures of Clark in fatigues is a great answer to Bush landing on an aircraft carrier in a flight suit! And how about always referring to him as General Clark and Bush as Mr. Bush? Vote for whoever you want in the primary, but if Clark is nominated, support him. Don't bail on your party. Democrats who voted for Nader helped George W. Bush take the White House.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. I want to see him debate the other candidates..then I'll know

Look....a coke snorting, insider trading, underachieving MORON got elected....WHAT COULD BE SO BAD ABOUT ANY OF OUR CANDIDATES COMPARED TO THAT?

[iangb]

59. You Betcha!

....Well that's a view from outside anyway.

Tha rest of the World knows Clark, and generally trusts him to 'do the right thing' internationally.

Clark's record shows that he understands the importance of miltilateral organisations in tackling problems. A Clark Presidency would see the revitalisation of bodies such as the UN and a return of good relations between the US and its traditional allies. (Imagine not having to pretend you're a Canadian when you travel OS)

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

61. Are you sure?

Or are you just one who has a knee jerk reaction to anyone from the military as being a loose cannon?

I suggest you find out more about Wesley Clark. For one he opposed invading Iraq.