I fear the decline in civil society

[jiacinto]

I've been registering voters lately here in Florida. And I run into these statements when I approach people

I'm straight
I don't want to sign no form
I don't vote
I'm too tired to fill out the form
I don't want to register to vote
I'm too busy

It really angers me how indifferent some Americans can be to the concept of voting. Millions of people in third world countries have died fighting for the right to vote. Millions of people don't have this right at all.

I have a very thankless job. People come up to me and laugh at me when I approach them. I do this in very hot and humid weather. And I fear about our civil society. Why isn't our society more mobilized on these issues?

I hate using the "Sheeple" term that bounces around here from time to time. But I can fully understand why some people believe it. I think that the problem is because people are cynical and don't think people care. But it bothers me how our civil society has weakened in America.

[Clete]

1. Maybe it's just Florida.

I haven't found that attitude on the West Coast with people who are interested in what's happening in politics. The ones who aren't either aren't eligible to vote or are apolitical.

[JasonBerry]

2. You are SO right....

That is one reason I like to read Vaclav Havel. His writings on civility in politics AND community are stunningly beautiful.

[jiacinto]

3. What does he say

nt

[JasonBerry]

6. Here is one description...

http://www.semcoop.com/detail/0679744975

But, my thoughts on his writings:

He discusses, in great length, about the need to bring the "public square" into modern politics - everywhere! He calls for people to be engaged with government and community on the most local of levels. He calls for an openness that would allow for people to come together - whether they agree or not strategically for the good of the people and the country. He discusses how that is possible when we are civil and are able to engage in civil discourse without thinking that idealogy is superior to common goodness, that the vast majority of people have a common good in sight, with varying ideas on how to get there. Openness that breeds saftey in speech and then a spirit of civility that creates more people willing to be engaged leading to a better society. He says it all in a way that is not pie-in-the-sky, but truly hopeful and as I said, he writes with such beauty. (What you would expect from a playwrite of his stature.) He's an incredible man who just breathes hope for better tomorrows.

[jiacinto]

9. Bowling Alone

Robert Putnam aruges that civil society is on decline in the US.

He says there are fewer

community organizations
sports leagues
neighborhod groups
business associations

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. Re: Sheeple

No shit Carlos. I don't like to use the term either but it unfortunately, all too well, describes what "we" are up against. And in Florida even! People's memories are frighteningly short.

BTW: I have the utmost respect for you for doing this. You are as much (if not more of) a patriot as anyone out there.
Thank You!

[jiacinto]

5. Thanks

I appreciate it.

[sendero]

24. I'll second that...

... you are doing important work.

"Illegitimi non carborundum", loosely translated as "don't let the sheeple get you down"

:evilgrin:

[Flying_Pig]

7. This is exactly what the fascists and their servants, the media, ...

have been working for. The more stupid and lazy you can make a people, the easier they are to control. I mean, did you ever wonder why Republicans always want to gut education programs? If you review history, you'll find that every fascist regime since the beginning of time, has done the same thing. The breakdown of civil society was abated somewhat when Clinton was in office, but now it has accelerated big time. Nothing will get them (the apathetics) off their ass, unless it directly affects them. As an example, let there be a gas shortage, and see how quickly they get upset.

Keep the faith though. You're doing good work, in a difficult place. And somehow, I have a feeling you're about to get some help, either from candidate(s) motivating the voters, or from something the Bush regime will do that will provoke serious outrage.

Hang in...

:hi:

[SharonAnn]

17. Yes, when I called an elderly woman to see if she needed a ride

to vote she told me that she quit voting after they refused to count votes in Florida in 2000. She said there's no point in voting anymore. She lives in East Tennessee.

No amount of logic would convince her that not voting is exactly what "they" want and that's why we should get out and vote. I called here several times for early voting, had others call her, but she was unshakeable.

This is a woman in her 80's who has voted in every election in her life.

So even people who care become disinterested in participating.

[waldenx]

8. Ask yourself the question:

Why are some people cynical?

They are tired of politicians and do not get motivated by the crop of pathetic losers running for office. Show them a quality candidate and they will get excited. Don't blame the people.

[jiacinto]

11. I don't blame them

But it does anger me how some people don't appreciate the right to vote.

[Andy_Stephenson]

10. Carlos...the first example you cited...

worries me...

"I'm straight"

:scared:

Good lord what are you wearing when out doing this? Wait...don't answer that.

:hi:


kudos for registering people!

[greatauntoftriplets]

12. Lord, I've registered people....

...and never got any responses like that! Mostly, I am already registered to vote, or sign me up!!!

[Andy_Stephenson]

14. I get many to register.

It's like selling anything. You have to believe in your product.

[greatauntoftriplets]

15. Yep.

It was a good experience.

[jiacinto]

16. It's a form of slang

nothing to do with sexuality.

[markses]

20. "I'm straight" means "I don't need to do that" or "That's OK, thanks"

It is an expression in African American Vernacular English. It has nothing to do with being "straight" or "gay." That's not what people are saying to Carlos.

Then again, "I'm straight" CAN MEAN "I'm already registered," an option Carlos failed to notice. For example, if I'm at a bar, and I just got a drink, and a friend offers to buy a round, when she asks me what I'm drinking, I would say "I'm straight." Meaning, of course, that i already have a drink. Carlos might have a translation problem as well.

Now, it is interesting that Carlos sought to signal the "indifferent" group with such verbal signifiers - the use of "I'm straight" and "I don't want to sign NO form" gives a subtle hint at just who these people are. Carlos uses race and class markers in his descriptions of the responses.

EXAMPLE:

I'd rather not sign a form.
I ain't signin' no damn form.

Of course, these things aren't perfectly determinative, but we can make general assumptions based on these linguistic markers. My question: Why did Carlos signal the race and class of the respondants so clearly? What difference does it make to his argument? I'm perfectly willing to accept that he's working with certain populations and just heard that a lot (though it stretches credultiy a bit to think that many people responded "I'm straight," when asked to register).

[jiacinto]

23. I was not singling out race

But I am registering people in Dade County, FL, which is predominantly black and Latino.

I will make this point, however. It angers me that only decades ago MLK fought against much adversity to win a right that many of the generation that followed his refuse to exercise. It's as if his struggle--at least in regard to the right to vote--has been in vain.

[markses]

28. Yo, whatever, yo

I think I'm following your point here, whether you "meant" to make it or not.

Love the "However, blah-de-blah." Sheds light on the thread, no doubt. Needless to say, it makes you angry...

As for the history of great men, I should say that Martin Luther King was just one man, and that millions of African Americans fought that struggle. Maybe even some of the folks telling you to step fought that struggle, dog. Two things, though. One, sometimes folks just get tired that struggle, you know? Especially when ain't no results showing, like maybe in some places in Dade County (or in Watts, Oakland, Philly or Brooklyn). Second, maybe some other folks still fighting that struggle, but they ain't fighting it with YOU. Maybe they fighting it other ways, see? Ain't about you, kid. Or your anger.

[jiacinto]

30. I don't understand your contempt here

I really don't.

[markses]

31. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

What contempt? Could you be more specific?

[Classical_Liberal]

49. Frankly when he was in politics more changes were happening

nothing really big has happened lately, so people don't see how government makes a difference.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. What a lot of asumptions you make

If you look up, you will understand that Carlos does understand "I'm straight".

Why talk about him as if he weren't here on his own thread? You ruin what could be an intelligent and thoughtful question on your part with a lot of supercilious intellectualizing. Speaking of Carlos in the third person telegraphs your true intention for posting.

Why not just address the reason for the thread rather than indulge yourself with psuedo sociological psychoanalysis for which you are neither being consulted nor paid?

[markses]

58. Yeah, OK

It's clear that Carlos understands the meaning of "I'm straight" (as in, "I'm OK, thanks.") What I claimed is that there could be other reasons for the use: The person may already be registered. In fact, that's a fairly common usage of the phrase "I'm straight," as my example meant to demonstrate. In other words, I understand that Carlos understand the meaning, but he ignores one possible reason for the utterance. Now, if I missed a post "above" in which Mr. Jiacinto noted this possibility, please inform me of it. I'd be happy to apologize if it's a matter of oversight. (In fact, it is implied in the rest of the post that he understands the meaning as "I'm OK, thanks," that is, the terms meaning in African American Vernacular English. So, I'm not even sure what your beef is here.)

As for referring to Carlos in the third person, you may want to check the POST I was responding to. It was not Carlos' post, but "God_bush_n_Cheney's," and IT referred to Carlos in the second person. Since I was responding to somebody other than Carlos about Carlos' use, I used the third person. Would you have me refer to Carlos in the second person when replying to somebody else who uses the name Carlos? Seems a breach of conversational convention. If it had been Carlos' post, I would have responded with the second person, as I did in the posts that respond directly to him (posts 13, 26, 28, 31) . So, again, clueless about your charge here. maybe my mind's just muddled by "supercilious intellectualizing...."

As for the "pseudo sociological psychoanalyzing," I thought we were more along the lines of pseudo sociolinguistics, but, my bad. Next time I'll confine commentary to cash transaction forums...:eyes:

[markses]

13. It's not indifference - it's RESISTANCE

1) "I don't wanna sign no form" READ: Fuck your bureaucracy and your goddamn control society.

2) "I don't vote." READ: I ain't heard a good argument about how the elite voting class relates to my life or my neighborhood. Or, if I heard those arguments, I don't hear how my vote counts (Florida is, of course, one of the most comically gerrimandered states in the union.)

3) "I'm too tired to fill out the form." See #1, with a bit of "Fucked if my work ain't killing me" thrown in for good measure.

4) "I don't want to register to vote" See #1, #2, plus "Fuck you."

5) "I'm too busy." See #2 and #3.

As for how "civil society" has weakened, I'm not sure it has. weakened from what? When, exactly, has universal suffrage been instituted in the United States? When has "civil society" (which, and I assume you're referring to classical political theory here, supposedly mediates between the State Form and the - ahem - war4 of all against all - ahem - ) ever existed for us? Oh, certainly in sly treatises and nostalgic rambling fantasies, but in history? Hardly.

Here's another possibility. Since Florida is not in a condition of universal suffrage - since people convicted of a felony are NOT PERMITTED TO VOTE IN FLORIDA EVER AGAIN - perhaps when somebody tells you "I'm straight," or "I don't vote," they mean something slightly different, not indifferent.

And even those who are - in fact - indifferent are not indifferent because of a personal failing so much as because of a social production of indifference. It's not about you, or even them. If "people are cynical," or "don't care," there's a damn good reason for it. A damn good reason.

[SharonAnn]

18. It's actually our government that has changed, i believe.

The corporations have bought and sold our government and people know itl. They know that the decisions made are not for the "people". The decisions are for the corporations and the "elite".

[jiacinto]

19. Felons can get their rights back

It's a form that they have to fill out that get sent to the board of elections.

[Solomon]

22. You mean they have an

opportunity to try to get their rights back. :smoke:

[jiacinto]

25. Ok

But the option does exist in FL.

[markses]

26. Which the Board of Elections can deny

Yes? It is not an automatic reinstatement of suffrage at the completion of the sentence/parole, is it?

In any case, you did the usual trick of responding to a secondary point in the post, rather than the substance of it, so I'll assume you have no response.

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. But the 19,000 non-felons

that deleted from the voting registers because they had the same name has a felon, will not get their right to vote back until next year! These people were excluded from the 2002 election as well as the 2000 fiasco.

BTW: Carlos, what neighborhood are you hanging out in. If you're in Little Havana, I'm not surprised at the response. You might cut yourself some slack and try some places were even if the people suck the view is good. South Beach, Coconut Grove, Lincoln Road, might be fun.

[Sterling]

21. Your living in it bro

And your work here has not helped matters much.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. Well this is what those who cater to the middle wanted

They wanted people who were so disaffected an so uninformed that they believed government was rigged, their vote didn't matter and nothing ever changed. People who would be content to let others decide for them. People who would think life was far too complicated for them to make the decision. People who wroked SO much, they had no energy left to even consider how politics might shape their lives. People who were malleable.

Mission accomplished.

All I can say is...if you even turn 5-15% of the people you are talking to around...you have done a great public service.

[Andy_Stephenson]

32. the vote is rigged.

ala Diebold.

[KittyWampus]

29. People No Longer Join Civics Groups

Like the Elks and Masons etc. Some woman was talking about the lack of group membership. People used to join groups much more often and then act along with that group.

but I think we are seeing the bottom of this trend.

People are needing support groups... especially in these times when families are splintered and no longer in tact.

[Wednesdays]

61. People *DO* join groups, they're just in different forms...

like Democraticunderground, for example? ;)

But I agree, there should still be a place in society for the traditional neighborhood groups.

[mitchum]

33. Thank you for registering people to vote...

I really do mean that

[jiacinto]

34. I appreciate your comments

This is truly a thankless job.

[DeathvadeR]

36. ditto

keep up the fight...

[bluestateguy]

35. Mandatory voting is the answer

You'd be amazed at how a $100 fine from the government for not voting would get their attention.

[Dr Fate]

47. I disagree...

voting is a right- I only want people who feel obligated or compelled through their own FREEDOM to vote...

..forcing the vote is not the answer- it will turn people off...I don think anyone can claim it works in Belgium, their system appears just as corrupt as ours...

[arcos]

50. a democratic society has to allow undemocratic thinking...

Some people don't vote because they don't believe in democracy. This doesn't necessarily mean they believe a dictatorship is better, some of them just don't have an alternative.

But if you don't believe in democracy, how can you be forced to vote?

Plus, if everyone is required to vote and they go and vote without any information whatsoever, it would be worse. People wouldn't be making conscious decisions, just taking it lightly to avoid a fine.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

52. Wow.

Why do we need to do it like the white majority in New Zealand does it?

We also have the right NOT to vote if we so choose!

[uptohere]

37. I mourn the death of civil society

And I'm not so sure its coming back. At least anytime soon.

[friendofbenn]

38. why did more people used to vote in days of yore?

maybe its because there was a choice then? how are people suppossed to motivate themselves to vote for things getting "less worse?"

[sangh0]

63. They didn't. It's a legend

While there have been times of greater participation, it has not been the rule. In fact, at one time, only the landed gentry voted.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. These are the voters that the Democrats abandoned

or took for granted. These are the voters who work 40 or more hours a week and still can't afford the average apartment rent in their town, pay a lot of regressive taxes, and get almost nothing in return. These are the people who are suffering as states cut their budgets, sometimes with the acquiescence of Democrats.

They're depressed, and depression leads to feelings of helplessness and futility. Things are really bad for them, but not bad enough to stir them into action. Or at least, they don't know of anyone who looks any different than the typical politician.

What state and national politicians are going into the barrio and Liberty City and talking to the people there to find out where they're coming from? Are any presidential or Congressional candidates going into the poor neighborhoods for town meetings?

Before poor people will register to vote, you have to give them someone or something to vote FOR. You can't just appeal to abstract civic duty.

As far as the decline of community is concerned, I think it's very real. Your typical Sun Belt city isn't a city at all, at least not in the parts built since World War II. It's a collection of strip malls and housing developments, designed mainly in the interest of moving and parking cars. You can spend a long time in such an environment and hardly ever run into the same person twice--quite different from a small town or a traditional urban neighborhood. Minneapolis, where I live now, has some of those auto-centric characteristics, but in the older neighborhood where I live, I keep seeing the same people over and over at the locally-owned espresso bar and the food co-op.

You don't even need formal organizations to have a civil society. In the Japanese neighborhood where I lived as a student, the public bath was a popular gathering spot, and people talking together at the bath house started a protest movement against a developer who was planning to build a high rise in the middle of a district of single-family homes and small apartment buildings. Public baths and other small businesses are facing hard times in Japan, and I think that has led to a decline in the quality of life there.

If the Florida Dems want to register black and Latino voters, they'd better find exciting candidates who really understand conditions in the minority communities and can prove that they sincerely want to and can change things.

[jiacinto]

40. I don't buy into the "hidden liberal majority" theory

From what I've seen most of these people simply are indifferent. They don't have liberal views per se.

You definitely need a car down here in S. Florida. That much, I agree with.

[bluestateguy]

42. I guarantee you this

if they are fined for not voting they won't be indifferent anymore.

[friendofbenn]

44. get out and vote!

for no healthcare and a tax cut for the middle class! i mean how ungrateful are these people?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Depends on what you mean by liberal

If you mean limousine liberal, who's for all the causes that have big fund-raising organizations but refuses to go places where poor people might be, then no, they're not liberal.

But I think they would be receptive to a sincere message of economic populism: affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable education of high quality, help for small business start-ups, jobs that pay living wages.

However, you don't hear that message very often.

[jiacinto]

67. Yes and no

I just think that they are so indifferent that they can't be considered "liberal" voters.

[arcos]

51. I remember a Florida poll right after the 2000 elections...

They asked something like this to non-voters: "if you knew the election was going to be so close, would you have voted?"

The answer was a close yes. And when asked "who would you have voted for?", by a 2 to 1 margin people chose Gore.

I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics, though :(

[Q]

41. Well...at least they didn't call you an 'extremist'....

- How can you blame people for not voting when the Democrats allowed Bush* to steal an election and take office without doing anything about it?

- This doesn't give them much of a choice: vote for Bush* OR his enablers.

[Aidoneus]

43. indifferent to what you're selling, maybe..

pretend we're some person you walk up to, could you give an example of the pitch you're making?

[fabius]

45. Depends on where you go.

I went to a street fair in Portland OR to plug Dean and we got several new voters signed up and almost EVERYBODY knew who Dean was.

If the redneck idiots stay home it's OK. It's always a struggle. Sign up the ones that are more aware, they're out there somewhere. Try another precinct!

In my profession I go to city council meetings in very small, poor towns all the time. These are unpaid volunteer politicians just trying to do the right thing. They do a surprisingly good job. Civil society still is alive.

[Lexingtonian]

48. thanks for doing this, carlos

You may want to give these folks something of a break. When it's that hot and humid remarkably many people you run into in public places are, though very people realize it, in fact lightheaded and disoriented from a lack of salt and dehydration. Throw in tiredness and you get this stupid crankiness- it's discomfort at demands to handle more sensory information rather than tune it out. And it's definitely worse in older people.

I don't know whether I can agree with the 'sheeple' notion either, but average people are very disappointing from the p.o.v. of activists. You can't demand moral courage or informedness or decisiveness or toleration of psychological pain from them. They'll declare themselves incompetent at anything immediately- the free and the brave are rareties, the competent even more so. By and large you have to make things easy on them and hope for the best- they do come around, but never on your schedule. And in Florida the November 2000 controversy means there is psychological pain associated with voting beyond simply your candidate losing out. Republicans are making very well understood that the election results mean drastic differences in the public square, a thing that makes poorly informed people anxious and fearful of getting involved in instability.

So I suspect everything depends on the situation you're working in- your attitude, expectations/zealotry, whether you really are offering them an improvement on their day. It sounds like you're running around with a clipboard in malls. Maybe you and your group have to have a stand to which you send people- shade, tables and chairs where they can fill out the paperwork, a clock for them to check, some lemonade and potato chips. Maybe you can offer to have someone transcribe the information from peoples' driver's licences if they like, with tape covering their SSN. Basically you have to put a sunny and conventional routine face on things with some class- not the huckester and opportunistic one or the Officialdom one, you're not trying to get people to take a Personality Test and fall in with a cult group. Pretend to yourself that you're enlisting people into something resembling Amnesty International rather than PETA, and remember that most have been solicited for silly petitions and cult groups (in Florida, Scientology and 'Christians') in a manner similar to what what you've been trying.

But it's pretty depressing that evidently the Party hasn't taken the 2000 census data and gone over to early evening canvassing of underperforming precincts, retirement homes, the local RMV parking lot, high turnover apartment complexes, and new developments.

[jiacinto]

71. The problem with Florida

There are a lot of gated communities and other places that you need permission to be at. I am not working for the state Dem Party.

Registering voters is hard because you have very places where you won't be asked to leave from.

[Iverson]

53. want to feel better?

I agree with your original post straight down the line. Now you're practically obligated to change your mind about feeling discouraged!

;)

[Cheswick2.0]

55. hang in there Carlos

You are performing a valuable service. I know it is discouraging that so many people have bought the boring cynics message, but if you get some people registered you have done more than most of us.
Do you have an answer to their comments?

Democracy, use it or lose it

[jiacinto]

66. Well

I am trained not to debate with people. I don't have time to fight with them. If they don't want to register I just walk away and talk to the next person.

[JNelson6563]

57. Well the tone hasn't been helpful

The condition of political dialogue in this country is horrible. I think we can thank the Republican Revolution for that.

But then again, even amongst ourselves, we can be quite horrible. I recall so clearly one poster in particular assuming they were the only person to suffer a certain kind of hardship in life. They compared it to a poker hand and declared they had all aces while I of course had crap. It was ignorant and vicious.

Did you happen to catch that exchange Carlos?

Julie

[IrateCitizen]

59. Just remember, Carlos... you're doing God's work with ACORN.

And for that, you should be lauded. But I'm afraid I can't say anything to help you with regards to seeing the decline of civil society. It has been going on for the past 50 years or so.

I just finished reading an incredible book by Rabbi Michael Lerner (of Tikkun fame) titled, The Politics of Meaning. I would say that it discusses the very phenomenon of which you speak -- the decline of community and rise of cynicism in American society. It also goes a long way toward explaining why working and middle-class folks are drawn to right-wing groups and fundamentalist religious movements, and why liberalism has largely failed many of these folks (not that conservatism is really treating them with any value, either).

The basic premise of the book is that we need to recreate communities of caring throughout our society, to overcome this ethos of selfishness under which we have been conditioned to operate -- and become increasingly unhappy in the process. This is not something that government can accomplish by itself, it is something that must be a grassroots movement if it is to succeed.

I would highly recommend you find a copy of this book, if you can. It is probably a little out of your usual vein, but it will definitely help answer many of the questions that are troubling you right now -- even if they aren't all the answers you necessarily want to hear.

Keep on keepin' on, Carlos.

[jiacinto]

65. Ok

It just saddens me how indifferent some people are. Please don't mention where I work at DU as I would like to keep that information confidential in the future.

[FlaGranny]

60. That's great Carlos!

Thanks for your efforts. How many people have you registered?

[WoodrowFan]

62. I'm straight?? HUH??????????????

Only gays vote? I am so confused! :wtf:

Never mind, I didn't read the whole thread... OOPS :spank:

[DemExpat]

64. Great work, Carlos!

Thanks for doing this tedious and 'thankless' work......but getting some people to register is fantastic IMO.

Now, if you could only have a better feeling about it yourself, not be angry at the disinterested, but happy with the 'hits' - and try to have a positive, optimistic attitude about it - it would feel a lot better to you too!

People get 'infected' by optimism, don't you think?

Way to go for your efforts and your activism.

DemEx

[goobergunch]

68. Keep up the good work, Carlos

Each person you register does make a difference.

[Starpass]

69. I think there is another element at work

I truly don't think that there are a bunch of people sitting around saying "they don't do anything for me" and thus, if a true savior comes along they will vote. I think that voting to them is about as "foreign" an experience as going to an opera. Can name a few people I know that demonstrate this same quality. They don't know what "da fuck" dis voting shit is, what registration is, how you vote, where you vote, etc. It's something "other people do" but not them.

[jiacinto]

70. Yeah I understand, Starpass

But it is very upsetting given how many people in the third world have died for trying to get this right that people here in America don't use.

[Forkboy]

72. You came to GD to talk about a civil society?

:D