Confessions of a reformed Deaniac

[Octafish]

Kerry versus Dean contrasted in this article from San Francisco Sentinel:

With Hugh Gurin
Confessions of a reformed Deaniac

Monday, September 15, 2003

Like most of you reading the Sentinel, I am convinced that nothing is more important for our nation, and the world at large, than regime change in Washington DC. And like many of you, I am excited by the energy and honesty of Dr. Howard Dean’s campaign for President.

I think the Democratic Party and indeed, the American people owe Dr. Dean a debt of gratitude for revolutionizing grass-roots activism, and more importantly, getting young people excited about politics again.

That being said, I plan to vote for John Kerry in 2004.

SNIP...

I began to compare and contrast. Kerry’s economic plans call for a real commitment to eliminating our dependence on foreign oil, (so do Dean’s,) with the significant difference that Kerry has a strategy, for how to actually do it. One that would create 500,000 good paying energy sector jobs. Kerry supports creating American jobs and renewing our cities through building infrastructure, school construction and modernization, tax credits and cleaning up polluted areas in our country.

CONTINUED...

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/id282.htm

[Romberry]

1. You snipped out the lamest part...

..which was the first "reason" he gave for no longer being a "Deaniac". And that reason? Why, it was nothing more than being treated "rudely" by some other Deaniacs on one of the Dean blogs! How lame is that? This person is going to base his choice on whether or not he likes the other supporters of a candidate!

Kerry made a huge mistake posting this lameness on his own official blog. Instead of taking potshots at Dean, perhaps the others candidates ought to do what Dean did to get "popular" and spend their time taking on George Bush instead. Until then, all they are doing is "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean"ing themselves to total irrelevance.

Regardless of the outcome, Democrats everywhere owe Howard Dean's campaign a debt of gratitude for showing the inside the beltway crowd what a real set of balls looks like.

Short version: The article was lame.

[E_Zapata]

3. I am cracking up - you just proved that point in the article - perfectly.

Sorry - not trying to get in a fight. But the Deaniac "spirit" for crushing any dissent is not even a stone's throw from the fundies. It is just the truth. I know - I am a recovering Deaniac. And 3 months ago, I would have said AMEN to what you just posted.

And the thing is - I have no idea what you just said because the anger blinded me.

[Romberry]

11. Sorry, I disagree

I base my support on the candidate, not on the candidates "supporters". Doing otherwise is just juvenile.

Dean, support him or not, was the first (and at that time only) really visible candidate willing to take Bush on forcefully. While Kerry was voting for a blank check for the boy king, Dean was calling it for what it was.

Before I ever heard of Howard Dean I was ready and willing to jump on the Kerry or Edwards bandwagons. I figured one of them would be the frontrunner and would as a result be hard to beat. Boy did I miss that boat.

I'll support the nominee no matter who it is but these other campaigns (and their supporters) would do themselves a big favor by concentrating on Bush. As it stands now, all they are doing is loading up Karl Rove's guns.

[TLM]

19. How exactly is responding to criticism "crushing any dissent"

I guess the only way for you to be happy is if Dean supporters all sit mute and do not argue or debate any of the accusations, claims, or atacks made about Dean?

Because it seems any level of response is spun as crushing any dissent or cult obsession or whatever will allow the person having their bullshit shot to bits to change the subject.

[Nazgul35]

30. Of course.....

like candidate...like supporters.....sit quietly while the repugs bend you over and take a huge...well you know where that's going....

:evilgrin:

[ShimokitaJer]

32. Remember... it's official DLC policy to sit there and take it like a man

No matter what kind of idiocy they throw at you. Don't "sink to their level" by fighting their lies with the truth.

After all, it worked so well for Gore in 2000.

[E_Zapata]

41. How about responding to criticism with specific POLICY PLANS

that Dean wants to implement?

Dean supporters can't do that because Dean, himself, doesn't have viable plans - as the op ed piece indicates.

Dean supporters routinely and incessantly attack the messenger. That's thought police behavior.

[dsc]

69. Why

the writer sure didn't. He uttered pretty phrases but I defy you to find one policy detail in that whole piece. I have no better understanding of what Kerry stands for or how it would work now than before reading that piece.

[JNelson6563]

27. wow! That was easy.

'The anger blinded" you? lol! You may want to have that looked at. A few words on a DB cause you to be blind with anger, well you are either given to extreme exaggeration or you need to seek help ASAP.

Julie

[E_Zapata]

42. See? you guys just prove the op ed piece over and over.....

I am speaking of the poster's anger - not mine.

Kerry! blah blah blah Kerry! blah blah blah Kerry blah blah blah.....

What was he saying?

The ONLY appropriate response from a Dean supporter to that op ed piece would be to speak to Dean's plans, because that is the point of the criticisim in this op ed piece. You guys aren't doing that. No, you take it further and make mental health attacks on a person, like me, who agrees wholeheartedly that there is a big problem with Dean's policy plans.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

52. Take a look around.

You'll find policy position after policy position. I'll give you a head start: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214


The original poster is fully aware of this info. The Dean supporters are fully aware that the poster is fully aware.

[Octafish]

53. No. The original poster knows Dean is full of hot air.

I hope all Deanie-weenies throughout Virtual Reality know what I think:

1. Kerry is a Liberal Democrat with a track record of doing what is best for his country and ALL his country's people. He's also gone after the BFEE.

2. Dean is all talk. Where's his record as a Democrat? Do you think he'll go after the BFEE? Other than talk, that is?

[StopTheMorans]

59. we know what you think

and we'll watch your candidate continue to sink in the polls to boot. I like Kerry, but he's falling, and he's only going to start sinking quicker now that Clark's in.

[Octafish]

62. So you say.

I like Dean. I just don't think he's the candidate who can fix America's problems and move the nation forward.

[sendero]

72. for gosh sake....

.... TALK is what it is going to take to get Bush* out of office. Got that? TALK. Campaigning is ALL TALK, and most Americans could give a RAT's EFFING ASS about complex policy posititions because THEY ALL CHANGE AFTER THE ELECTION.

Kerry doesn't have the TALK, he NEVER HAD the TALK and sorry, he is highly unlikely to get the nomination. He should stop crying in his teacup and GET OVER IT.


Now, soon you can turn to the other threat to Kerry's heirdom, namely Clark. Good luck.

[Octafish]

88. Sorry you feel that way.

Sure TALK is what rhetoric uses to change peoples' minds. But you gotta KNOW what you're talking ABOUT! Otherwise, people will figure out which candidates are phonies and which are real Democrats who believe in government service and use their careers to make the country a better place to live in for ALL Americans. While some candidates SAY they would serve if called, my horse DID it.

[indigo32]

92. Sorry you feel that way too

such is life I guess. I think it's insulting however for you to insinuate that Howard Dean hasn't been a valuble public servant. He has.

[Octafish]

94. Thanks for pointing that out, indigo32.

After all is said and done, I AM a Democrat. So are the MANY DUers I consider Friends who happen to support Dean. I would never intentionally hurt their sensitivities or impugn their opinions regarding the candidate. If I have done so, I am truly sorry.

Dean IS a good man, whose done a good job in whatever area he has applied his talents and intellect. If he is the Democratic nominee, I will gladly vote for him and do all I can to support him.

Until then, I must do all that I can to get people to realize that the nation needs to get the Little Turd from Crawfurd out of the White House and into an orange prison jumpsuit ASAFP. From what I know and can see, the best man to take out the Bush Organized Crime Family is John Kerry.

The last time I would have felt like that would be 1968. Unfortunately, at the time, I was 10 years of age. So, I remember RFK, but, I'm ashamed to say I didn't understand at the time his greatness and what made him so until it was too late. As President, he would have made the kind of good things happen for our country and our people as his brother John did.

[E_Zapata]

2. I am a reformed Deniac too.

This snip says a lot:

"Dean seemed too good to be true.

The first thing that bothered me was the Thought Police you’ll encounter on his weblog. Now, when you get young people fired up about politics, some "My guy or the highway" sentiment is to be expected. But this was like the Soviet Union, circa 1959. Dissent is crushed. Brutally. That gave me pause. Whenever people are so sure their guy can do no wrong, I get skeptical. I began to look a little deeper."

-------I think this Though Police phenomena is like a disease in American Society. And Dean has implemented it somehow just like Rush and O'Reilly and Rove, himself. I have an example: watch me get brutalized in this thread by Deaniacs for even mentioning such blasphemy.

[Orangepeel]

37. Maybe I don't understand, but sheesh!

Did this guy posted negative stuff on Dean's weblog and then get surprised when "dissent was crushed?" What the hell did he expect on Dean's own weblog? Duh!

[blm]

55. Join with Ted Rall and others who realized that Dean

was an opportunist, not the great hope. A centrist wrapped in hot rhetoric coopted from Nader 2000. Too bad he didn't even have Nader's record pf progressive activism, just 11 years of aligning with the GOP in Vermont.

[Julien Sorel]

4. Annnnnnnnnnd we have a winner:

The first thing that bothered me was the Thought Police you’ll encounter on his weblog. Now, when you get young people fired up about politics, some "My guy or the highway" sentiment is to be expected. But this was like the Soviet Union, circa 1959. Dissent is crushed. Brutally. That gave me pause. Whenever people are so sure their guy can do no wrong, I get skeptical. I began to look a little deeper.

I like Dean, but I haven't seen anything to justify the rabid fervor his supporters demonstrate for him. This person expresses exactly what I thought. I remember the first forum or debate or what have you that I saw Dean at, and he came out and looked totally ordinary. I had expected this guy who came out and breathed charisma and then set it on fire with a snap of his fingers; what I saw instead was just one of nine people up there, trying to get his message across, and the message itself seemed ordinary. Since then I've been told his message doesn't matter; he's running a 'new kind of campaign,' and so the 'old rules don't apply;' all his faults wouldn't matter, because he was going to raise so much money he would blow Bush away --all sorts of things that it takes a big leap of faith to believe. The problem is, I'm a rationalist, and so are most people at heart; those who aren't rationalists tend to reserve their leaps of faith for religion.

There are a few months yet before things get hot and heavy; we'll have to see how many of these things pan out in that time frame. Lots of time left for Dean to breathe some charisma and set it on fire, lots of time left for the internet donations to poor in and so on.

[Forkboy]

6. So you wont get upset when people are asking questions

about Clark?

I'm not for either of them,but to me both camps sound and act awfully alike.

[Julien Sorel]

12. It depends on the questions,

as I've stated all along. Legitimate questions, sure, but much of what comes out about Clark are simply smear jobs. And someone starting the 100th thread titled 'I don't get the big deal about Clark,' or, 'But what are his positions' will get exactly what they deserve as far as I'm concerned.

Many of your own posts have been downright hostile to Clark, by the way, and you have allied yourself with some of the more errr, let's call them 'unique thinkers' on this board, so what you've 'noticed' is suspect to me. There have been, and there are, a couple of aggressive Clark people, but nothing like some of the Kool-aid swillers I've seen elsewhere.

And of course, garbage like the FAIR piece today are going to get fried, and some people who post that stuff along with them. If I was out there posting crap about Dean or any of the other candidates, I'd deserve and expect to get ripped for it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. I Sign On 100% To BillyBunter's Comments Here

His opinion matches my own on this subject.

I have pointed dozens of Clark-curious folks to lots of information. I've conceded many points or issues where Clark's position is unclear, or potentially even troublesome.

But I've also rejected and forcefully rebutted the BS smear jobs and hysterical posts of a certain vocal minority here, and I will continue to do so.

DTH

[Forkboy]

16. Your posts,DTH,have been excellent

and are greatly appreciated.I've checked many of the links you've provided myself.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

17. Thanks

I appreciate your kind words. Peace, and to a Democratic victory in 2004!

:toast:

DTH

[Forkboy]

15. Seeing as how you can perform a search

Can you find where I've been "downright hostile" to Clark? I haven't been hostile to any candidate except Lieberman.As for alligning myself with "unique thinkers" all I can say is better that than non-thinkers.

I do agree that many of the posts about ALL the candidates are silly,but on the other hand if a candidate is worthy there shouldn't be any problem shooting down the more outrageous charges against them.

If you think the charges on DU are crazy just wait until the GOP smear machine gets cranked up.Consider this practice in fighting what will prove to be a real test.

Anyways,I'd appreciate you either backing up your claim about me or apologizing.

[Julien Sorel]

18. You generally express your hostility by supporting

some of the more bullshit threads and posters, or simply making snide comments to Clark supporters. That's chickenshit -- it would be better if you did come out and actually express a direct opinion -- but then, so are some of the folks you seem to admire, so it doesn't surprise me.

At any rate, here are some examples of your handiwork after a brief search:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=297748#299496

The person whose post you are indirectly backing is on ignore, so I can't see what it is, but it's probably one of the endless conspiracy theories. I suppose that's the kind of 'thinking' you prefer.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=270866#273492

Sarcastic comment...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=270701#271697

Supporting another attack on Clark...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=273185#273435

Kucinich digs at Clark, you pop up and talk about how much that makes you like Kucinich...



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=270883#271017

Another sarcastic comment...


You are, however, quite friendly to Dean and his supporters throughout; in fact, you get downright toadyish at times:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=268100#268138

And I found several other Dean-friendly posts of yours. I found no Clark-friendly ones.

Cowardly hostility is still hostility.

[Forkboy]

22. This is laughable

I'll respond to each link of yours that proves that you couldn't find anything to back up your charge.

1-Forkboy (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-08-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #95

100. good,factual,well thought out rebuttal...not

2 points;
One,most obvious,it's not hostile to Clark in any way.
Two,you say,"The person whose post you are indirectly backing is on ignore, so I can't see what it is, but it's probably one of the endless conspiracy theories. I suppose that's the kind of 'thinking' you prefer." You're making an assumption based on a post you can't see yet you attack my thought process?Tell me BB,is making assumptions based on a total lack of knowledge the type of "thinking" you prefer?

2-Forkboy is a DEMOCRAT!!!! next...

That sure is hostile :eyes: Is it sarcastic? Yup.The original post said,"He just announced it on CNN, so hopefully this will shut everyone up about whether or not he is a Democrat."
As someone who was just recently called a Greenie,and as someone who has been called that before I thought it would be funny to point out that I'm also a Democrat.You're really grasping at straws here,and I think you know it.

3-well to be fair it's interesting that Clark had to as well.

This was in response to cat_girl who said it was interesting the the original poster,who was asking some very fair questions about Clark,had to state she was a Democrat.I find it interesting that Clark did too.Again BB,where's the hostility?

4-Another reason to like DK.He impresses me more and more.

This was in response to this statement;"General Clark has served his country well, but I'm not looking to confirm the primacy of the Pentagon," Kucinich said. "I have a fundamentally different view."

That's not a dig by DK it's a matter of where he stands.He DOES have a fundamentally different view.That's why I like him.It's not so much a knock at Clark as at the military mentality.Either way,if you consider what I said to be an example of "downright hostilty" I'd say that you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fucking sensitive.

5-Simple they found out Clark was a Democrat.

This one is the funniest so far because it's a knock on CNN and not Clark at all.The original post was aking why CNN cut Clark off to show Arnold...hence my reply.Did you even read any of these links you're supplying because I have to tell you that at this point I'm almost embarrassed to have to point out to you the obvious.Sarcasm obviously rubs you the wrong way or you just dont get it.

6- Thats pretty damn cool Eloriel.'m for DK personally but still like Dean a lot.I certainly think he can win it all,and with people like yourself leading the way he'll be tough to stop

oh my...what amazing hostility towards Clark. :eyes:
Here's a clue BB-I like Eloriel a lot.Dean was my first choice until a couple months ago.I still like him.If that's toadying to you then you're even a larger fool than I'm already beoing led to believe.

So,you found absolutely nothing that even comes close to the "downright hostility" charge you tossed out there and you aren't man enough to admit you're wrong yet you call me the cowardly one.

Thanks for the fun BB...better luck next time...coward.

[Julien Sorel]

26. LOL

Poor baby! It's the pattern. Sarcastic remarks always directed at the supporters of one candidate -- but you lack the guts to come out and say anything direct. Except, of course, the Kucinich comment, which was too good for you to pass up. But we have our own standards.

I'm quite certain I could have found a lot more, but I spent way more time on it than it was worth. The pattern is there, and it's obvious. Or are you going to deny that you don't like Clark's candidacy?

*On edit, I just did another brief search, and found more compliments of the anti-Clark conspiracy theorists from you while they were at work. Again, you lack the guts to come out and make the attacks yourself, you just back up the people who make the actual attacks. I also ran over some posts where you were favorable to Kerry, but again, none where you were favorable to Clark. Just the steady beat of little comments here and there. Grow a pair, kid. If you don't like a candidate, come out and say so. Or if you aren't hostile to Clark, come out and say it -- then explain why you have a consistent pattern of showing up on threads where Clark is getting flamed with your 'innocent' comments.

[Forkboy]

36. I actually like Clark

so I wont come out and say I dont like him.

Your post was a bunch of tripe...that's the best you could do to prove that I was being "downright hostile"? It was a joke and it's there for all to see.

I think I'll let our posts speak for themselves.Everyone can see you failed miserably and lack the courage to admit it.

[E_Zapata]

43. I think Billy did pretty well

The posts do speak volumes. But not as you conclude.

[Forkboy]

61. Thats good E

I'm happy for you.

[Julien Sorel]

46. Not enough time, so I'll simply quote myself:

Or if you aren't hostile to Clark, come out and say it -- then explain why you have a consistent pattern of showing up on threads where Clark is getting flamed with your 'innocent' comments.

Now that you've said you like Clark, Tinoire might kick you out of the club. No more high-fives for you!

[Forkboy]

60. Unlike you Tinoire is both smart enough and decent enough

to like someone even when they dont grovel at the same alter.

[TLM]

20. Funny when Dean supporters do that...

people accuse them of being thought police... "And of course, garbage like the FAIR piece today are going to get fried, and some people who post that stuff along with them."

[Forkboy]

23. How BB can go from his post about Sharpton

which was brilliant,to this total lack of comprehension and attempt to portray me as "downright hostile" to Clark is amazing to me.It really boggles the mind.

[calimary]

76. HEY! I'm a Deanie myself, but shoot - there's Wesley Clark info

all over the place! Summarized here, even. And links galore. Whoever doesn't know SEVERAL SOMETHINGS about Wesley Clark is probably not paying attention, or just logged on after being away for awhile, not watching the news, boarding up for Hurricane Isabel, or preoccupied by work/home/kids/unemployment/school/whatever.

Frankly, as a girlfriend of mine said yesterday - isn't this a NICE predicament to be in?

Stop and think about it for a minute!

All of a sudden, MAN do we have bench strength! Isn't it rather nice that now we have at least TWO if not MORE stellar candidates - guys (with the most serious and heart-felt apologies to Ms. Moseley-Braun. The late Alan Cranston, after considering running for president and shortly thereafter withdrawing from the race, said "I know how to count votes." Moseley-Braun just doesn't have the numbers (as we used to say in radio when heads rolled after a bad book). She'll have new influence and new weight to throw around within the party, and she, like the 9-11 widows, isn't gonna go away. But it's the men-folk. For now.

We've got guys who've earned new chops, and in some cases, put themselves on the map for the first time - and of those, there's a young 'un or two, just taking off the training wheels. This is a good thing. Everybody should shut up with their candidate lobbying (notice I'm not using this as a pro-Dean moment), and watch how things play out. If you can't decide between Dean and Clark, or Kerry and Clark, or Kucinich and Clark, or Kerry and Edwards, or Dean and Kucinich, or whoever, let's see how they shake themselves down. I'd be willing to bet that, with Clark in, somebody's gonna bail shortly. Depends on the numbers. This needs to sink in, watch how the press covers it - for ITSELF, AND for the whole "bush boil." Watch and see. I'm guessing the cards will reshuffle themselves.

This is one of those evenings with the "Sorting Hat" from Harry Potter. Alignments will be better solidified in the near future. Not right now. Sit back and sop it up with a biscuit. The rethugs are nervous. They don't like this, not one bit. And this isn't all they don't like, not one bit, either. It's beginning to be fun to be a Democrat again, what with the playing field starting to level out a little.

What I know about Wesley Clark, from reading here and about, I like. As with Dean, and frankly Kucinich too, and maybe Kerry and/or Bob Graham (who also unfortunately doesn't have the numbers) there's enough I can live with. And if Clark turns out to be the standard-bearer, I'll work my tail off for him.

Just read up, if you're gonna spout off, know a little of what you're talking about so you can back it up. CONSTANT VIGILANCE, as Mad-Eye Moody would say.

[E_Zapata]

9. Interesting,

"I like Dean, but I haven't seen anything to justify the rabid fervor his supporters demonstrate for him. "

I think Americans have this need to be on a winning team just to win. And to hell with the details and the fine print. win, win, win. I don't know. But the fundie movement didn't emerge out of a vaccum. It is something about our society.

The author of this article is spot on. Dean does not have PLANS, he has positions. And, worse, those positions change with the wind. I pray to God that he is not the nominee.

[stickdog]

21. OK, repeat after me.

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

"It's only, by far, the most organic, most exciting, most empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in the history of the United States."

Getting it yet?

[laconicsax]

28. 18 repetitions, 5 times a week from 10 to 15?

Maybe I'm just really tired at almost 3 AM (ok, I am really tired and have no idea why I'm still awake), but I'm not quite understanding the purpose of your comment.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

39. Note: remember Jesse in '88?

Jesse Jackson ran another organic, exciting, and empowering nationwide grassroots campaign in 1988.
And he was a far better orator.

[stickdog]

40. Yes. It may have been second best to Dean's. And your point is ... ? (NT)

[E_Zapata]

44. It's great that you are ENJOYING the campaign so much

Politics should be fun and invigorating. We all owe Dean a big salute on that.

But we have a job to do. Who is going to get down and dirty and do it?

Judge the PLANS to get the job done and mark your ballot.

And allow me to do the same.

[stickdog]

82. You guys just keep refusing to comprehend.

Dean's organic, inclusive, responsive, continually expanding and ultimately empowering grassroots campaign is THE POLITICAL STORY OF 2003.


How can I possibly make this clear to people who simply don't want to comprehend?

Dean says: "We can't fail in Iraq. We need to commit more troops."

Over the next day or two, Dean's supporters make themselves heard via the campaign's blog, email, phone banks, meet ups, message boards, etc.

In response to his supporters' overwhelming feedback, Dean refines his message within days: "We need more troops in Iraq: but UN troops, not American troops."

This is the ultimate EMPOWERMENT OF THE CONCERNED AND INFORMED CITIZENRY over media punditry, corporacracy and the tyranny of the elite neo-politi-cons (of both major parties). Democrats can't compete with Bush's 200+ million by raising the money from rich contributors and corporations. But if 10 million concerned, EMPOWERED citizens contribute $20 each ...

Can't y'all just, for a second, step back from the personalities and policies and punditries and get a grip on the populist power we now have the potential to unleash if only we just stop doing everything we can to help the establishment suppress it?

[curse10]

78. Then why do I find it so boring!

Dean doesn't excite me-- and he obviously doesn't excite a great deal of others on this board.

[stickdog]

80. Because

A) you like establishment Democrats and are actively working with them to preserve and protect the status quo

or

B) you are a no-compromise far left/progressive with no vision for using Dean's organic, populist campaign to achieve at least some of your long standing goals

or

C) you are simply jealous that Dean said the right things at the right time and is now hogging the spotlight you feel should be on your guy or gal.

So which is it?

[curse10]

84. Blah blah blah blah blah

Try none of the above.

Try Dean isn't as exciting as all the Deanites want him to be. Dean isn't as progressive as the Deanites want him to be. Dean is a status-quo governor who's worked for years with the repugs in his state. And Dean isn't hogging the spotlite anywhere but here. In the real world, outside of DU, many people still don't know who the heck he is.

[stickdog]

89. Try A. (NT)

[curse10]

90. I didn't know Deanites could read minds!

That's super cool! Can you tell me all my political stances!? I'm confused, obviously, because I'm not on the Dean bandwagon! Help me find my inner Deanness. :eyes:

[Spider Jerusalem]

97. And...

you've managed to say exactly nothing. Organic, empowering, exciting blah blah blah...what is that supposed to mean, exactly? That you actually think that popularity is some measure of worth? That slick marketing and presentation are more important than substance? That just because there are X number of rabid Dean-bots, we'd all be idiots not to join in the lemminglike rush to anoint the good doctor the de facto Democratic nominee, despite the fact that his record as governor of Vermont is somewhat troubling and problematic from the viewpoint of what the party is supposed to stand for and from the point of providing meaningful contrast with the Republicans, especially in the areas of corporate regulation, labor and the environment? T

The man may look good in a suit, and may be able to hold a crowd spellbound with his glittering rhetoric....but that isn't enough for me or many others.

Are YOU getting it yet?

[stickdog]

98. My post was clear. Your response was a load of muddled anger.

Go ahead, Spider. Support the status quo smiler.

[Mairead]

33. Deja vu all over again?

Since then I've been told his message doesn't matter; he's running a 'new kind of campaign,' and so the 'old rules don't apply;' all his faults wouldn't matter, because he was going to raise so much money he would blow Bush away

Why does this sound like the dot-com 'new economy' bubble?

[Julien Sorel]

34. Funny you should say that, because that's exactly what

I was thinking of. In fact, I was thinking in terms of Greenspan's 'Irrational exuberence' comment. But just as I watched people lose millions and millions of dollars before they finally allowed themselves to be re-introduced to reality, I suspect we might have to watch a political version of the same effect. Hopefully the rest of us won't be drug down with them.

[Jim Sagle]

5. Thank. I'm now leaning Kerry - as a 2nd choice to Dean.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Wow a true believer AND ad copywriter...I wouldn't have guessed!

I like Kerry but this form of marketing is a bit cheesy...IMAGINE THAT!!! An AD COPYWRITER giving a testimonial for Kerry and refering to himself as an EX DEANIAC. :eyes:

[MercutioATC]

8. Hey, at least you're voting Dem....

That's what really counts. I wish Dean did it for you, but if he doesn't go with whomever you feel comfortable.

We ARE all in this together...

[Old and In the Way]

10. Like a kid in a candy store.....

so many choices, which to choose? Anything but the sourball, I think.

And the poor Republican chumps....only Bush for you!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

14. More than once recently

I've spoken to Repubs who seemed almost wistful; you can tell they don't like Bush, but what are they to do? One guy I was talking to yesterday said "I guess I like McCain..." in a sad voice. Ha. Only Bush for you!

[nolabels]

25. Hey, that starting to sound pretty good

You can tell they don't like Bush, but what are they to do?
He said "I guess I like McCain..."
Ha. You republicans, Only Bush for you!

[Octafish]

38. "Ha! You republicans. Only Bush for you!

It IS a great meme!

[E_Zapata]

45. it's a keeper for a bumper sticker.

*

[Moot]

24. I like Sen. Joesph Biden for president

I like Sen. Joesph Biden for president, but his wife wouldn't let him run. Frankly, I'm not crazy about any of the candidates. But now that Clark is running, I think I'm leaning towards him. The fact that he has a strong military and foreign affairs background is exactly what this country needs right now. His being a Rhode Scholar doesn't hurt either. Once he's in office he can appoint all the old Clinton domestic experts back in and get this country back on track.

[newyawker99]

29. Hi Farrahnuff!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[haymaker]

86. Biden has given cover for more Repuke

sordid bullshit than any Democrat (allegedly) in history. Start with Long Dong Silver.

[JNelson6563]

31. I look forward to your next post

Confessions of a former hate-monger. I doubt it will be as interesting as Brock's though. He was a more creative hate-monger.

Julie

[Octafish]

35. Thanks for the kind words.

You can slam me all you want for pointing out what I don't like about Howard Dean. You can slam me for pointing out what I like about John Kerry. I don't care which. Just don't call me a hate-monger, please. In so doing, you label me as something which is not true.

Contrasting the two candidates was my reason for posting the article. The author (creatively!) says he can't understand the support for Dean when the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker is basically all-talk and no-walk. Kerry, for those who bother to read, has detailed plans for accomplishing what needs to be done to make the country move forward.

Getting back (un-creatively!) to your reply: Why is it so many of Dean's supporters can't seem to take any criticism of him or his policies? Is it he doesn't stand up to examination? Your (plural) animus towards me for pointing that out seems more a frustration stemming from the knowledge that your (plural) horse isn't all that much more than a lot of hot air, rather than from an inability to disagree with what I posted.

[ibegurpard]

47. Why is it so many of Dean's supporters can't seem to take any criticism of

They just can't take it coming from YOU

[Octafish]

48. I'm so glad.

Here's one that you should watch out for:

Q: Did you know that Howard Dean and Rush Limbaugh have something important in common?

A: During Vietnam, they both got medical deferments and were classified 1-Y.

Thanks for the inspiration, ibegurpard! Once I get all the links together, especially the parts about coming in to the draft medical with notes from the private physicians, I'll be sure to post it.

[ibegurpard]

51. We'll be looking forward to that oh-so impartial hatchet job I'm sure

:eyes:

[sangh0]

49. And why is that?

Octafish's post tend to be reasonable and free of invective. So what makes Octafish so special to you?

[ibegurpard]

50. BWAHAHAHA!

Oh Sangha, you slay me!

[Octafish]

54. Thanks for reminding me. Here's a "Hatchet Job."

In fact, I labeled it that way to make it easy for Dean supporters to avoid:

DEAN: What I Don't Like about the Guy (a Hatchet Job)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=65346

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Only problem is your article is an advertisement written by an ad

copy specialist. It doesn't indicate HOW KERRY intends to pay for his plan. Plans are nice but they all cost money. Again, I am not ani-Kerry nor Dean but this is a rather DISHONEST example of an article.

This is NO MORE an article than an ad copywriter for Microsoft espousing the wonders of micro-soft.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Golly gosh..I wonder how he made his way to Kerry

:freak:

http://www.portfolios.com/zoom.wga?User_number=hbg16&imagecount=14

[Octafish]

63. Would the Kerry Camp had as much imagination.

With Chris Lehane out, perhaps there's a desk for a creative, clear-thinking copyrwriter. This fellow seems to do a darn good job of putting thought to paper, one of Jefferson's marks of a disciplined mind.

Me? Well, of course, there IS something to be said for obtuse — just don't know what it is.

[Octafish]

58. Fair Question. The government just can't print money, can it?

From what I understand, the Kerry plan puts everybody into the Federal employees insurance program. Employers and self-insured individuals are to get tax credits. To pay for the program relies on rolling back the Bush tax cuts on the upper brackets. (Personally, I'd like asking the big profit corporations that have escaped the last two decades — since Reagan dropped their tax rates from 50-percent to 28-percent — without paying their fair share to pick up the tab.) Here’s how Kerry put it on PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer:

'NewsHour' Interviews Democratic Contenders Kerry, Sharpton on Health Care

Kerry promotes cost-saving plan; Sharpton stands up for constitutional amendment guaranteeing a right to health care

Source(s): Margaret Warner, The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer (Sharpton) (July 1); Margaret Warner, The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer (Kerry) (July 2). Continuing its series on Democratic presidential contenders’ health care proposals, the "NewsHour with Jim Lehrer" interviewed Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and the Reverend Al Sharpton of New York.

Senator Kerry said his plan would expand health care access to 27 million of the 41 million uninsured Americans while reducing costs. The federal government would take on the cost of insuring all poor children and pay most catastrophic coverage costs for companies, but states would pay for expanded coverage for the working poor. Private employees would be able to opt to buy into the Federal Employees Health-Benefits Program. Kerry said his plan would "actually reduce health-care costs" by having the federal government pay 75 percent of the most expensive care, which he claimed would lead to "automatically reduced premiums." Kerry proposes financing the $72-billion-a-year plan by rolling back recent tax cuts endorsed by President Bush. But noting that his plan would cost $900 billion over 10 years—more than the $1.6 billion gained from rolling back tax cuts— Margaret Warner asked Kerry whether he would have to roll back tax cuts "for more than just the wealthiest." Kerry responded that he would only roll back cuts "for the wealthiest," as well as the inheritance tax. Warner also queried Kerry on the $500 billion that it would cost the federal government over 10 years to take over the cost of insuring poor children. Kerry said that states would welcome the plan because it gives them a "net plus...of about $5 billion," and "it really doesn’t cost that much measured against the other choices we’re making," such as the recent tax cuts.

Kerry says his plan would insure almost the same number of people as other plans put forward by other Democratic contenders, but offers a "comprehensive" approach to the health care system that tackles drug prices, medical error, and administrative overhead, which he claims counts for about 25 percent of the cost of health care in America. Asked by Warner why private insurers would now accept a streamlined paperwork system that has been a goal since at least the Reagan administration, Kerry says companies would accept his system because it is "not a Washington solution" but a "market-based" one that allows "greater competition in the health-care system."

SOURCE:

http://covertheuninsuredweek.org/news/index.php?NewsID=367

Here’s the Kerry Plan, complete, in PDF format:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/kerry_health_plan.pdf

PS: Hey, nothingshocksmeanymore! I really do appreciate your excellent question (and your posts going back to DU1). I know it's meant to help the DEMs get the best candidate available. Our country and its future need that candidate!

[dsc]

64. Unless those credits are refundable

that laid off 26year old is still screwed. I am 35 so I am in the age he mentioned (above 25). That tax credit might pay 2 months of my insurance if it isn't refundable. What should I do the other 10?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. Thankyou and I will keep this info and bookamrk it for later reading

I really DON'T like the fact that the letter really IS more of an AD than an honest letter but I DO like Kerry....again..i just thought it was SO obvious as to border on cheezy. Sorry...not trying to be a naysayer...just my cynical take.

[blm]

74. Actually, nsma, some papers do allow those who work in other depts.

to write columns if they wish to contribute.

Mr. blm's newsroom has published columns from their own workers on occasion.

Knight-Ridder papers allow it, too.

[sendero]

75. when a phenomena occurs....

... and you "don't understand why it is happening", which would a sane person conclude:

1) that your perceptions are not what they could be, or
2) that the phenomena is "wrong"

[Octafish]

91. What do you know about phenomena?

You create a false choice, one shaded to create the impression that no matter which way one answers, the party is labeled the fool or a kook. Good one. Here's just one other possibility for you to chew on:

A person may say, "Gee. I thought this was what I was experiencing. But upon closer examination this phenomenon turned into something else. So, maybe who I'm hearing talk is not a progressive Democrat who will kick Bush out of the White House. Maybe the candidate's a ________ (fill in the blank with the name of something familiar, like 'phony opportunist') ________ who will continue the same-old same-old."

That's how I see it. You never did say how you see it, deseo, or am I supposed to read between the lines and guess?

[dsc]

66. The most astounding part of the article for me

The first thing that bothered me was the Thought Police you’ll encounter on his weblog. Now, when you get young people fired up about politics, some "My guy or the highway" sentiment is to be expected. But this was like the Soviet Union, circa 1959. Dissent is crushed. Brutally. That gave me pause. Whenever people are so sure their guy can do no wrong, I get skeptical. I began to look a little deeper.

end of quote.

Look at what is missing here. He gives not one example of the "My guy or the highway" sentiment. Nothing. This supposed watershed thing for him and he can't give a single, solitary, example. Doesn't that make one wonder? I know quite well why I am voting for Dean. I can give you several specific examples. Why can't he?

[chadm]

67. Kerry is Skull & Bones

Kind of like Bush's "compassional conservatism", you simply can't trust his rhetoric.

[XanaDUer]

68. Illuminati, really.

And Brotherhood of the Bell.


:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. PROVE THAT IT MATTERS...COURT IS NOW IN SESSION

[disgruntella]

71. Number One Presiding!

[newsguyatl]

73. anyone who's followed this poster

knows what to expect with his/her posts...

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ibegurpard]

83. Funny you should mention wastebaskets

That's where I'd expect to find most of the stuff you post about Dean.

[Octafish]

93. Funny you should mention that.

Although my post was in no way meant to showcase the glorious hero of Stowe and Killington and Vale, no where did I criticize anyone who supports Dean. Several respondents have, and I've tried to limit my remarks to their writings. In the above case, I should have made clear that in no way was I trying to impugn the dignity or work of a newsroom janitor. I should have made clear the poster, IMO, could be a snoop who goes through trash. maybe he or she will read this.

[curse10]

79. Interesting Article

I feel very similar.

[gully]

81. Confessions of a reformed Kerry-ack....

http://www.switch2dean.com/steve-transcript.html

"I think right now Howard Dean and John Kerry – that’s going to be the first battle that’s fought. They’re pretty much going toe to toe right now. Comparing the two, I don’t think John Kerry has enough guts, has enough everyman characteristics. I think he’s going to be... with the main goal of taking the White House back from the Republicans..."

Ok, so my guys not as literate as yours, but he can vote ;)

[Octafish]

87. Thanks, gully! As far as writers go...

...he's really pretty good. He makes his case in a subtle-like manner. And I truly feel for him losing his job two weeks ago and pray he'll land on his feet in a better one. Going by how he can write, his thought processes are pretty much intact. Which brings me to some more stuff of interest for ridding us of this putrid Pox Bush:

EXCERPT...

... What I would say to somebody about Howard Dean is that he’s got an attitude, but it’s not just that he’s angry because I think he understands that it’s not just raw anger of an insurgent candidate that going to win the election – you understand that that’s not going to win, but he has the feeling, he has the passion, he has the guts to stand up to the powers that be and to the current administration and I think that’s what it’s going to take to win back the White House. I don’t think that any one of the other Democratic candidates for President are going to be able to generate enough excitement, generate enough support to actually take back... to win the election.  I don’t think they have the ability to do that. 

CONTINUED...

http://www.switch2dean.com/steve-transcript.html

I agree with him in so far it will take someone with the guts to stand up to the Little Turd from Crawfurd. I'd add we also need brains, backbone, know-how and vision. My horse John Kerry has all that — with knobs on. And Kerry stood up a while back and said: "It's time for a Regime Change in America!"

[gully]

95. I'll give you this...

I'd add we also need brains, backbone, know-how and vision.

Gosh my candidate possesses these fine qualities too. And, he's also leading the polls because of his 'brains, backbone, know-how and vision' ;)

[TheDonkey]

85. Pretty accurate on how I feel. (nt)

[Classical_Liberal]

96. Since Kerry has dismissed Carter's evenhandedness in Israel

How are we going to stop the Al Qaeda from using the homeless Palestinians as a recrutment tool? Also Kerry voted for the war. I think Dean is a spunkier leader than Kerry and Kerry has not proved otherwise. Kerry has proved that he cares about scary interest groups more than this country.