From C-SPAN: 33% of American Soldiers who died in Iraq were Hispanic/Black

[LalahLand]

The actual breakdown was 20% Hispanic, 13% Black. Does this statistic reflect the breakdown of minorities in the military?

[TAH6988]

1. Considering that C-Span said soliders...

The Army enlisted corp is 28.9% Black and 9.7% Hispanic

http://www.mfrc-dodqol.org/pdffiles/II_Active_Duty_Members.pdf

[QC]

2. And I suspect that very near 100% of them are working class or poor.

The plutocracy has never been much concerned with the color of its cannon fodder.

[TAH6988]

3. Well, obviously all were working class

they all were working, right?

[QC]

5. Surely you know what the phrase "working class" means. Don't you?

[TAH6988]

6. Nope.

Seems to me that you can be lower class and work....middle class and work...upper class and work. The term "working class" IMHO, implies that the middle and upper classes don't work. I find that illogical.

[QC]

8. That tired old argument again.

It comes up every few weeks here, and I thought it was what you were leading up to.

The term generally refers to blue-collar wage-earners. In other words, people who are dependent on a paycheck and will be hurting bad if they miss one or two of them.

Of course other people work. Hell, Donald Rumsfeld works, but I would certainly not consider him a member of a disadvantaged class, nor would I consider his "work" especially valuable.

If it will make you feel better, please amend my statement to "members of the lower socio-economic classes." I don't care. You can call them "Bob" for my part. The point is that the country's wars are fought by lower class people of varying complections and instigated by those whose wealth protects them from the consequences of their policy decisions. Focusing entirely on race, to the exclusion of class, ignores this.

[TAH6988]

10. Not trying to upset you

I just have this "thing" for imprecise terms. If you mean blue-collar wage-earners, then by all means, say so. In the military EVERYONE works, and pretty damn hard. No, there are not many upper class types in the military, that is true.

[QC]

12. Not upset at all--happy to have a good discussion going.

It's not unreasonable to argue that "working class" is an imprecise term, but it does have a well known and long-established meaning.

Also, it refers to more than just income. A nice example is that recent article about unemployed Dallas yuppies running to local charitable agencies demanding help in paying their private school tuition, $2000 mortgages, club dues, etc. Those people are low-income now, but no product of the working class would feel that sense of entitlement.

So the term also takes in a set of attitudes, and I don't think that terms like "lower socio-economic classes" convey that as well.

[TAH6988]

13. Hmmm

How do you know that they are not "products" of your so-called "working class?" Perhaps they came from lower income families and worked their way up to Yuppiedom?

[QC]

14. Sure, it's possible.

Lots of people climb into higher classes and then forget where they came from. Reagan and Thatcher are good examples, and the snobbishness of the nouveaux riches is legendary.

What I mean is this: I look back to my father and grandfathers, a factory worker, trash collector, and miner. They ended up out of work whenever the company needed to save a few bucks. It was the natural order of things, as they saw it. It was how the system worked. So, when you got laid off, you just had to get by somehow until you found work again. That's the system, and the system is lousy, but what are you gonna do? I can't imagine them appealing to a charity to pay club dues. They could not have imagined doing it, because such a thing requires a sense of entitlement that is foreign to anyone who knows the system as well as these guys did.

[TAH6988]

15. You've got a good point there

No arguement from me on that one.

[QC]

16. Something interesting is happening now re: the working class

and this is where I'm willing to grant you that the term "working class" is not as clearly defined as it used to be.

I think we're seeing a proletarianization of the middle class, and that is what those Dallas yuppies were caught up in. For so many years, white-collar workers have bought into the notion that their ties and clean hands and McMansions made them a class apart from the guys on the loading dock. But now, they are finding that they are every bit as expendable. The same people who were singing the praises of the free market a few years ago and lecturing displaced workers on their failure to "upgrade their skill sets" are now being "outsourced." There is much outrage about this, of course, and I think that's positive, because a sense of violated entitlement might motivate these people to fight back in ways that people like my grandfathers couldn't.

So yeah, the way things are headed now, I think you can argue that anyone who is not independently wealthy is working class. Once more people realize it, we might see some big changes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. Imprecise?

It's defined in the Webster dictionary. You can't get more Johnny on the spot precise than that.

[TAH6988]

20. It's still imprecise

"Working class" implies that only people who do manual labor for little wages "work." That implication is not true, and you know it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. You're going to pick a fight with Webster?

I'll bring my own popcorn. ;)

[reachout]

11. working class

working class

n : a social class comprising those who do manual labor or work
for wages




"You get up every morning 'fore the sun comes up
Toss a lunchbox into a pickup truck
A long, hard day sure ain't much fun
But you've gotta get it started if you wanna get it done
You set your mind and roll up your sleeves
You're workin' on a working man's Ph.D."

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. Webster might help out in this situation:

In the Webster dictionary, "Working Class" is defined as: The class of people who work for wages usually at manual labor.



Hope that helps.

[TAH6988]

21. So those

who are paid a salary, don't work? BTW, I know PLENTY of people who are paid "wages" who earn more than "salaried" employees.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Pretty Close

Blacks and Hispanics comprise approximately 25% of the population...

They are a tad bit overrepresented...

[Snellius]

7. I've noticed this in the obituaries in my local newspaper

Especially among Hispanics. Every day my local paper publishes a list of confirmed casualties in Iraq. It seems like every other name is Sanchez or Rodriguez or Gonzalez, largely from Texas, most in their early 20s, with some at young as 19. These are kids who probably join more for the job and the respect than the adventure or patriotic quest.

[kayell]

9. A lot of them are also joining to get a fast track to citizenship

[SoCalDem]

19. At one point , almost half were from California..

I foud a website that had their pictures and home towns.. I actually counted how many were from each state.. Imagine my surprise , when I noticed that almost half of the dead soldiers were from "unpatriotic ole California"..

California is always "compared" to Iraq whenever they are talking size, when Iraq is actually closer to another state , in size and p[opulation, but it does not sound as sinister coming out of a repube mouth..

[TAH6988]

22. You have a link to suport that?

That seems way high.