An untintended consequence of NON stop BBV.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Let me first say I am glad that Bev is doing the work she is doing. I am glad she has put her efforts into this and I am grateful for learning all that she has discovered. I look forward to her lighting a fire under the heels of those who have the means to tamper with election data.

My greatest concern, however, is that the non-stop insistance that votes are currently rigged will continue to demoralize people and convince them NOT TO VOTE which certainly cannot help the case either. If record numbers of Democrats show up to vote and vote Democratic..then there is certainly cause to investigate the result.

By contrast if record numbers of Dems stay home feeling the game is rigged..then what have we accomplished?

So.....perhaps those who post on all the BBV threads can recommend a remedy and likewise express their intentions.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. Fix the problem with verifiable paper trail.

Problem solved. Democracy restored.

[Andy_Stephenson]

3. I second that

emotion....

[Nederland]

7. Not really

How you going to solve all the problems that exist with paper ballots?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Actually (and I am NO EXPERT on this matter)

The opti-scan ballot is not 100% accurate but is the closest if I recall of all the manual ballots because it puts an ink mark in a specific slot on the ballot and in the comparison that I had read in the LA TIMES a while back, it had less errors than any other methods.

Therefore, if the PAPER trail were made to simulate the optiscan then one could verify in that manner.

That would be my recommendation. It might not be CHEAP but with something a precious as a vote it certainly would make sense.

[Cheswick2.0]

14. why the paper trail is a bad idea

when they steal the election and they put the papers in their paper trail boxes never to be counted. Why? Because the election will never be close enough to call for a recount.

I think the only solution is to refuse electronic voting altogether.
Instead of a paper trail we should be demanding paper ballots.

[Clete]

22. Actually the votes that go into the scanner should work

if they are numbered, which in my precinct in past elections they have been. Now if they follow accounting procedures, there would be a journal print out of the votes like a cash register tape and other printouts of each candidate and issue with the total of votes for each printed out. The paper and numbered votes including voids would be filed in numerical order.

In the case of a close and disputed election you can go over the paper ballots manually to find out if there were any discrepancies. Numbered ballots that are missing would send up red flag that possible vote fraud has happened, but if you have the journal and original numbered ballots then you have something to audit. If you don't have that then you are going to have to hope that your vote counts. My two cents.

[gristy]

23. Yup. Just basic accounting.

[ShimokitaJer]

2. I think you may be exaggerating BBV's exposure

Sure, we on DU see posts on BBV all the time, but the VAST majority of American people have yet to see a single article about the issue. That's why every new article DUers find about it is cause for celebration.

To address the issue of voter demoralization, though, I think it is important to focus not on past votes, but on the future of voting. As energizing as it may be to suggest that the Republicans rigged Florida or Georgia, our priority HAS to be mandating the use of machines which leave an accurate and auditable paper trail. For one thing, ensuring accurate elections is an issue that nobody can call partisan, unlike crying fraud about past elections. But more importantly, NOTHING we do to support Democratic issues can succeed if future votes are rigged.

I think more exposure for the issue can be nothing but good for the effort to get these machines out of our election booths.

[punpirate]

4. Predominantly...

... the posts saying that the votes are or have been rigged exclusively in favor of the right wing have come from people who little understand the problem, who are occasional visitors at best, and who do not understand that the entirety of the electronic voting issue is truly bipartisan.

In this matter, what hurts Democrats also hurts Republicans, even if some of them are behind the push for paperless voting.... I don't expect Republicans to understand the meaning of "what goes around comes around" (they aren't swift enough to figure that out) but it still applies.

Getting the vote-counting correct and proper favors democracy, no matter who is voting. If we can convince people that we're fighting for the right of their vote to be counted, and we happen to be Democrats, maybe that will convince them we're on the side of democracy.

YeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaa!!!!!

Cheers.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Oh I completely agree

and I support a paper trail. I am just concerned about negative consequences and felt the need to voice it...perhaps so that we may frame this issue in THAT manner.

[punpirate]

12. Paper trail? Yes!

Hammer the issue? Yes! Over and over, until everyone understands it, deep down, in their bones.

What negative consequences can come from this? None I can see, as long as the asserted facts are accurate. Diebold's own technical support memos show them to be a bunch of idiots? Yeah, bring `em on....

Show the public that Diebold and other manufacturers are idiots and that they're trying to run the voting of this country? Why not? You don't want idiots running your life, so why should you let idiots control a voting process enabling other idiots?

Umm, I rest my case. *smile*

Cheers.

[RedEagle]

8. What I hear most often....

....echoes what we are trying to accomplish.

When people talk to me about voting, they don't talk about inconvenience or how they vote, but that they feel their vote doesn't count.

Over and over, this is what I hear. I really believe that the rank and file citizen out there has intuitively known for some time their votes were being disenfranchised. Either swept away or altered.

I see the BBV voting issue, in its success, re-instilling that faith in the system that will make people believe it's worthwhile to vote again, that they will be heard.

There are more issues then this, like redistricting, but this is the core. Nothing gets better without this.

Change starts in tiny steps. We're beyond tiny steps right now.

Rather than turn people away, it should energize them. If all of the people realize that by voting en masse, even if the system is not entirely free of fraud, it will be extremely difficult to pull it off.

We're working to make voting honest. The populace can push it over the edge of no return for the spin masters of fraud.

[Gordon25]

6. Try looking at it this way...

"My greatest concern, however, is that the non-stop insistance that votes are currently rigged will continue to demoralize people and convince them NOT TO VOTE which certainly cannot help the case either. If record numbers of Democrats show up to vote and vote Democratic..then there is certainly cause to investigate the result."

I understand the concern. I have heard it from local election officials who are afraid I am making too much noise locally, and in response to questions about why they aren't questioning the software in light of recent revelations.

My response is real simple. Why would you want to encourage people to vote on rigged machines which manipulate the vote count except to maintain an illusion of Democracy? Personally, I feel if we don't get this fixed perhaps we could get people to boycott the ballot box and vote with their feet in the streets during the next election.

Why support fraud?

Gordon25

[hang a left]

9. My thoughts on this issue are that if the evidence

of rigged elections does not motivate Americans into the streets, than nothing will.

[zbdent]

10. The paper-trail-less voting system will be vindicated

when Bush is re-elected on the certified tally of 16 trillion to 3 in favor of GWB.

[Terwilliger]

13. appease, appease, appease

That's right folks! Calm your rhetoric! Dems won't actually do anything to stop it, so don't waste your energy in that pursuit!

Give the people back their kool-aid, and make sure they know how to use their vote wisely! :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. Now there's the remedy I was asking for

That's what I like about you...your positive outlook! :D

[Terwilliger]

18. Thank ye kindly, ma'am

I see your point (anybody with any intelligence would) but I think its horrible that Democrats dont seem to have any priority in fixing the vote problems...even though it affects their vote totals the most

[hunter]

16. Focus on the future!

I see all sorts of circumstantial (and not so circumstantial...) evidence that elections have been rigged using BBV machines. But honestly, that's beyond what most people want to believe.

It's very much like the situation in the Catholic Church -- too many people don't want to know that their own parish priests have been child molestors. They don't even read or listen to the names of priests and bishops who have been caught.

I'd say the "average American" truly wants to believe they live in a democracy, the same way that the "average Catholic" wants to believe their own parish priests have not been child molestors.

These black box voting machines have been sold to the public as a way of making elections more accurate. The very first thing we must do is hold election officials to that promise. The next step is to make the public aware of the fact that most current electronic voting machines are not secure.

If we jump into the normal public discourse yelling and screaming that elections have been rigged, that the sky is falling down, we will be dismissed, even when our claims are correct.

By focusing on the future, and presenting this as a problem of making future elections more accurate and more secure, I think we will get greater leverage, and we will not discourage people from voting.

This does not mean we should stop hammering on the true miscreants of this scandal. They truly deserve what they will get... But I won't be disappointed if this issue takes time to percolate up onto the front page of the newpaper, and it may not happen until after the tide has turned, and most voting is done using voter verified paper ballots.

Persistence and patience will win this fight...

[Clete]

17. One of the first things you learn in accounting besides

debits and credits, is how to steal. Yes, that's right. Single entry (one transaction or in this case vote recorded on one column) invites fraud. Double entry (source document transaction recorded in two columns as debits and credits makes it almost impossible to commit fraud unless there is collaboration between those handling the money or in this case votes.

When there is a discrepancy between the two entries, then one must audit the source documents. If there is no audit trail then you have problems like in Florida with votes not counted and many thrown out. There is a way to smooth this out for accurate elections if votes are treated with accounting principles like any bank treats money.

[GregW]

19. I think we need a BBV forum

The constant hysteria about this race being rigged and those votes being stolen has diluted the message:

"Electronic voting machines must have a auditable paper trail"

I have most of the BBV'ers on ignore now to cut down on GD traffic, I wish I didn't have to, maybe a separate forum is the answer?

[hunter]

25. A separate forum? Are you nuts?

I'm here at DU because I believe people here are willing to fight the big political battles.

BBV is going to be a VERY BIG political battle. If I can't find people at DU who are willing to fight, hell, maybe I should just go someplace else. Let me ride shotgun with Jim March if that is what I must do.

So go ahead GregW, put me on "ignore." I don't put anyone on "ignore." I can take all the flames and noise that come down this pipe.

[Occulus]

20. The answer doesn't lie with BBV

Many voters, close friends of mine, and even my mother all agree: politicains don't listen.

That's why they feel their vote doesn't count. It has nothing at all to do with BBV; while that certainly makes it easier to tamper, that isn';t the underlying problem. The problem is the fact that politicans say what they need to to get elected, and then rampantly renege on their campaign promises while publicily "working" on the problem.

The conduit is corporate personhood. This enables corporations to 'buy' politicians, who need mney to get reelected. Were corporate personhood to be revoked, corporations would not be able to contribute at all to the political process. The people would be the only ones who are able to financially contribute, and since so many people believe politicans are liars who don't care, the money would drain away from politics fast.

Just my $.02.

[Eloriel]

26. Honey, if we don't fix the voting machine problem,

we won't have ANY way to fix the other problems -- all of which I agree with, btw.

If we don't fix the voting machines problem, we will not likely be picking our nominee ourselves, and it'll be another stolen election in 2004, we just won't know about it.

Eloriel

[Eloriel]

21. Oh, right. Let's keep people ignorant so they vote, but their votes

don't count. That'll work.

It's not that I don't get your point, it's that your point is wrong-headed. Very!

People need to GET INVOLVED, not cower in a corner wimpering.

Besides, if they keep voting for people who keep losing (for no good reason), they'll get JUST as demoralized.

Eloriel

[KoKo]

24. Exactly, Eloriel....."Ignorance is Bliss!" Let's not "upset the little

folks with little minds" about those "Touch Screen Voting Machines." Oh My, Oh Lordy.....they just won't trust those new "thangy's" and will not come out to vote.....they will say "What the F**k, (excuse my language) we just don't understand all this stuff and we're so confused......about this BBV Stuff.....well....it's just not worth going out there and standing in those long......long lines to do this...if our votes doesn't matter anyway.

Ho......hum........when they sort it all out and get it right.....then I'll go back...but "lordy" I just don't wan't to be bothered if I think there's a BIG controversy over all of this........it doesn't matter, anyway.....whoever wins is going to win anyway, they don't need my little vote.....and ......sigh....as I said....it's just all over my head anyway......

[John_H]

27. I have a different worry

which is that the fight is becoming unfocused and thereby inefectual. I would humbly submit that most efforts should be focused on obtaining permission to try to hack a machine in any state that has them.

Don't get me wrong any hit against diebold et. al. is a hit against eveil and rethugs--but I believe 110% that if that can be done the issue will be laid to rest in a touchscreen minute. And that transcends politics and PR. That will save the country.

[Gordon25]

28. Go to Jim Marsh's website...

...and down load his Diebold hack demo. Everything is there you need, all the sorce code, election data files, etc., with complete instructions on how to demonstrate the hack. You can do it on a pc running Windows with a copy of Access database.

Call and email your local newspapers. Ask them if they want to see how their votes counts can be accessed and altered by a hacker. Do the demonstration. If they don't use Diebold's GEMS software in your jurisdiction, offer the demo anyway. The chances are your system is electronic, and if so it is subject to the same kinds of security holes and back door accesses as GEMS. It might at least get some attention paid to the issue locally.

Meantime, while we respect your opinion we would much rather have your active participation.

Gordon25

[BevHarris]

29. Jim March CD now has "Memos Greatest Hits" coming out

I don't see it yet, but hear it is coming up -- a combination "rig-a-vote" demo and "Memos: Greatest Hits"

His web site:
http://www.equalccw.com/dieboldtestnotes.html