My opinion on the churches who are on the fine line

[FreedomAngel82]

I'm listening to the Majority report and they have a reverend guy on there talking about what happened Sunday. He was saying how the churches who are getting involved with politics are on the very thin line of getting tax'd. Now I know not every church does what these churches do so that's where I'm a little mixed on taxing churches or not. My grandparents church is very small and a lot of elderly people mainly so it might be hard on them. What I think is if a church does go over the boundaries of seperation of church and state (and we all know there is such a thing) they should get tax'd. The churches who don't should be okay. The only thing I'm not sure about is if the churches who are tax'd stop doing politics and go back to being a church should get off paying tax's or not. What do you think? Is this a good idea? The church I go to has never had any problems with politics being mixed in sermon's and whatnot. Sure, you can have discussions in your classes about issues but we've never endorsed a canidate or anything like that and my preacher didn't say anything about what's going on with this past Sunday. I was just wondering what other people thought about this idea.

[Atman]

1. Please define "Church"

THE Church? As in The Catholic Church? Few denominations are autonomous. There is a central governing board or body to which many belong, like an association. Like a Diocese in the Catholic church, which is itself under another layer of church beurocracy. So, when you say "churches that get involved in this sort of thing," what exactly does it mean? If a local church hold a political rally and the governing board doesn't reprimand them or revoke their charter, is the larger "Church" (capital C) responsible, too?

Sticky wickets abound. But in essence, I agree.

[FreedomAngel82]

2. I mean

churches in general. Like the church down the road from your street.

[Atman]

10. I think their tax-ex status is derived from the larger organization

A local church is often just a branch of a larger denomination. I don't think they are necessarily self-sufficient, from a taxation standpoint. I don't know if I'm making myself clear on this, and I know it doesn't apply to all churches, but it does to many. A local, totally independant congregational church with no national affiliation, should be taxed if it violates the separation clause. But at what cost, and to what end? The political ramification would be enormous (negative) for any democrat endorsing such a proposal, and unless you're going after big national ReligioBusinesses, it would seem the tax money collected wouldn't be worth the trouble proportionate to the shitstorm which would ensue.

[CatholicEdHead]

11. Often, not always though

most of the "born-again" churches are independent churches with no real large organization above it. They only loosly follow the same talking points.

[Warpy]

3. I would love to see commercial property

owned by churches fully taxed. It was quite a racket back in Massachusetts, with big churches owning strip malls, apartment buildings, hospitals, and other income generating properties off the tax rolls.

I have to assume that these megachurches with their three shows a day are socking away tremendous amounts of money, and that money has to go someplace besides allowing the preacher to live like a sultan. My guess is that their investments are many and their profits high, and should be vulnerable to taxation.

I'd see the laws amended so that the buildings, the upkeep, the heating, equipment from fans and Sunday school materials to hymnals, all should be tax exempt. However, anything that is invested and produces income outside the congregation should be taxed at the going rate.

It's the way to make the churches accountable to their congregations instead of the other way around.

[Cuban_Liberal]

5. Question:

What if a chuch operates a not-for-profit institution, like a hospital, or nursing home? Would you allow that to remain tax-exempt?

[DARE to HOPE]

18. I don't know--our Lutheran publishing houses are taxed...

both Concordia and Augsburg, as they are for profit. I would think strip malls would be, too.

[gratuitous]

4. There isn't really a fine line

It's a big, bright, do-not-pass-Go line, and responsible pastors know just what they can and can't say. Churches can speak out on issues, and they have for centuries. But endorsing candidates and political parties are a distinct no-no.

Churches that host select politicians from one political party ostensibly for an issue oriented rally have crossed that line, and they know it.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. So

what about what happened this past Sunday and the churches who were involved in that? They hosted Bill Frist and let him and his people speak but didn't hear from anybody else which was really unfair. It was basically a rally where nobody got to say anything.

[vi5]

6. I'm still fuzzy on why we don't tax churches in the first place....

..I really am.

[Cuban_Liberal]

8. 'The power to tax is the power to destroy'.

That, in a nutshell, is why.

[vi5]

12. Uh...yeah, o.k. whatever that means.....

So it's o.k. to destroy private citizens and other entities but not churches?

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. That wasn't the question.

You asked why churches weren't taxed, and I answered you.

[vi5]

15. Then could you elaborate futher.....

....That quote wasn't really an answer to my question. Then let me get more specific:

What is the legal/constitutional basis for not taxing religious institutions?

[Cuban_Liberal]

16. Multiple reasons.

First and foremost, the 1st Amendment recognizes the right to a free exercise of religion, and taxation could be viewed as impinging on this right in a manner that is hostile to religion. Second, taxes are normally levied only against institutions that create wealth, and churches are viewed as consuming wealth. Finally, most churches are 501(c)(3) corprations, which means they are tax-exempt, since their income (minus ordinary administrative expenses, e.g.) is essentially devoted to charitable/benevolent activities.

[vi5]

19. Got it. That's what I was looking for....

I figured it was something along the 501/non profit line but wasn't sure.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Cuban_Liberal]

20. No prob.

I just didn't realize how detailed an explanation you wanted. Peace.

--Tony :hi:

[NickofTime]

9. JIZYA: The Best Tax for Repug-Christians!

JIZYA: The poll-tax or rather "protection money" that has to be paid by the DHIMMIS under Islamic rule:

Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden - such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the book - until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled (humiliated). Surah al-Baqara 9:29

[KharmaTrain]

14. Just Heard Dobson...This Is A Radiothon...

I was scanning the band and came across one of those hidden Xtian stations...they had Dobson on, not just discussing what happened Sunday, but giving a replay of each speaker along with his "interpretations" of what they were saying.

He was all but giddy with Bill Donahue...the Archie Bunker anti-semetic head of the Catholic Union. He played not once but twice Donahue's opening where he said he felt more comfortable in that bible-thumping tent revival than he did in his own church with the likes of Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

Then Dobson went on a harrangue about how Senator Ken Salazar has been a sell-out and is an evil person and is persecuting Christians and killing kittens and tracking mud across the clean, new carpet <click>

Of course, on Xtian radio, there's never any place for an opposite opinion or any accountability...despite them using OUR airwaves. This needs to be addressed when Democrats regain control of the FCC.

[Dob Bole]

17. Churches don't get taxed, but ministers get double-taxed

Because of idiots like the preachers on TV, all pastors have to pay taxes as if they are self-employed. They aren't...ministers get their usually-small salary from the church...they are church employees. But because of the abuse of others, many ministers have trouble making ends meet.