Political campaigning from a church pulpit

[LastDemInIdaho]

Is it ok? Is it somewhat like the 10C in a courthouse?

Where does the ALCU stand on this issue?

[ComerPerro]

1. I don't have a problem with it

As long as the candidate doesn't give the impression that he will do whatever he can to uphold the Bible/Quran/whatever and that he will use the government to further his religion.

[LastDemInIdaho]

5. So political statements in a church are ok

And religous statements in a political (taxpayer funded) building are ok too?

[ComerPerro]

9. No, thats not what I said

I made my statement based on the premise of a politician speaking in a church, for his campaign. I have no problem with that.

But that doesn't mean that "political statements in a church are ok". That doesn't mean that I don't condemn a preacher saying "Democrats are satan" during sermon.

Also, some religious statements in a political building are ok. Take MLK, Jr's speech at the Lincoln Memorial. He made religious statements on government property.

[HFishbine]

23. It's simple

The church doesn't belong in government and government doesn't belong in church. No 10C's in a courthouse, no restraint of speech in a church. Gotta problem with that? ;)

[Blue_Chill]

41. So then you would restrict the speech allowed in church?

Why not just move to cuba?

[Malva Zebrina]

2. Been that way for thousands of years

no democracy will end it. Vote the way the church tells you to vote or else you will make the god very very angry and he will send you to hell.

[goobergunch]

3. It revokes the church's tax-exempt status...

so it's frowned upon.

[LTR]

6. Somebody better tell Robertson, Swaggart, Falwell, et al.

Politicking from the pulpit? Egad!

[Freddie Stubbs]

19. Out side is just as guilty

LOS ANGELES – Bill Clinton took to the pulpit of this city's most famous African-American church yesterday to deliver a rollicking denunciation of the drive to remove Gov. Gray Davis, calling it "fundamentally unfair and self-defeating."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/recall/20030915-9999_1n15clinton.html

[Bandit]

34. It is one thing to discuss an issue quite another to endorse a candidate

Remember Davis is not running for anything. They (the church and Clinton) did not endorse a candidate they argued against the recall issue. I think it is considered the same as soft money. Can't campaign for a candidate but can address an issue. I've been known to be wrong

[Isome]

36. Davis isn't running for anything...

[gristy]

4. huh?

More ammo for some kind of requirements on a minimum length and some minimum of thought on posts to start a thread.

[LastDemInIdaho]

7. Hard to phrase a single question in five sentences

No?

[gristy]

10. give me background...

give me your views... You'll fill up five sentences in a flash!

[LastDemInIdaho]

12. I just saw news of political campaign speechs in churches

And then a religous speech in a government building where the ACLU filed suit and refused to file suit against the political speech in a tax-free church. I got confused for a minute but I'm sure I'll be educated before the night is over.

Gimme five?

[dusty64]

8. They can when they

start paying TAXES like the rest of us.

[Clete]

11. If there is a church rule against mixing politics with religion

then they shouldn't, but I don't know of any church that really has a hard and fast rule against it. On the other hand our Constitution is pretty specific about separation of church and state so religion should be kept out of government buildings, schools and institutions.

[bearfartinthewoods]

22. it's not the church rules that concern me

it's the government rule that bans the practice. the same rule that snatched (rightfully( the tax execpt status of some rw churches because they politiced for repugs. it's wrong when they do it and wrong when we do it.

[ma4t]

29. take the wool off your eyes

An election cycle hasn't gone by in the past 20 years without images on TV of a candidate standing in a pulpit campaigning. When has a church ever lost its tax-exempt status for that?

[bearfartinthewoods]

38. can't give a cite but it happened last cycle to a RW church.

[Democat]

13. It's fine, as long as they don't want to be tax exempt

If you want to pay taxes, preach politics all you want.

If you want to be tax expempt, keep it out.

[LastDemInIdaho]

14. That's what I thought. What about this....

The First African Methodist Episcopal Church in south central Los Angeles may be headed for tax problems as a result of the rally held on Sunday for California Governor Gray Davis.

The group Americans United for Separation of Church and State says it has filed an official protest with the Internal Revenue Service, requesting a review of the church's tax-exempt status following a Sunday worship service that turned into a political rally for the governor. The rally featured the governor himself and perhaps the biggest Democratic heavyweight in the country: former President Bill Clinton. The former chief executive endorsed Davis from the pulpit of the church.

According to newspaper reports, Clinton encouraged those in the congregation to vote against the effort to recall Davis. "Don't do this. Don't shred your Constitution. Don't shred the fabric of government," Clinton said. "Don't tell people Californians are so impatient that they give somebody an employment contract and then tear it up in the middle because times are tough. This is the right thing to do, to beat this recall."

Following Clinton's lead, Davis said the recall election "threatens the very fabric of democracy." He continued, saying " is not good for you, it is not good for California. I ask that you defeat it."

And even the church's pastor got in on the politicking, describing Davis as "our vital warrior" and saying "we are his posse."

Robert Boston, assistant director of communications for Americans United, says he has studied what transpired in the church.

"I think it was pretty clear that this was a 'retain Gray Davis in office' rally -- and while that may be fine in some venues, it's not okay for a church," Boston says. "Non-profit organizations, including houses of worship, are not supposed to be involved in partisan politics."
+snip+

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1220316.html

[Democat]

15. The entire "religious right" movement should disqualify many churches

I'm not sure how churches escape getting stripped, other than the fact that most groups probably don't want to get involved in suing and or complaining about churches.

How many churches in the South will try to help get Bush elected in 2004? Probably thousands of them.

[LastDemInIdaho]

16. If one is wrong they all are wrong

No place for church and state in the same room.

[Democat]

17. One more thing - why are they going after Democrats? Maybe because...

How many churches were used to support the Ten Commandants mess and Judge Moore in Alabama? How many complaints were filed over the churches that supported Moore?

It seems like Democrats have made themselves easy targets with their incredible cowardice over the last few years. Americans United probably knows that attacking Republicans will result in a swift counter attack. Attack a Democrat and the media and right wingers will pile on.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State is a great group, but why target one Democrat when there are thousands of Republicans doing the same thing every day?

[LastDemInIdaho]

18. I think that's a question for the ACLU

If one is wrong they all are wrong.

[Catherine Vincent]

20. Yes, you're right..if one is wrong, they are both wrong.

And thank you for yet another post that makes you "appear" to be a Bush* lackey.

[Isome]

21. Not so fast...

It's my understanding that churches are tax exempt primarily because they're non-profit organizations. They're not tax exempt because a parish priest or church pastor is (has to remain, or has to become) apolitical. They are, however, prohibited from endorsing a particular candidate, soliciting donations, or using church funds for campaign contributions.

The civil rights movement was galvanized on many a Sunday before, during, or after church. The "moral majority" got its pep talks from Falwell on Sundays. Pat Robertson uses the pulpit to steer his sheeple in the right direction every day. The Unitarians regularly promote their politics on Sunday. McCokespoon and his handmaiden, Condaleeza tha' Skeeza used a church as a convenient photo-op, and McCokespoon took the opportunity to deliver a thinly veiled political speech at the 9.11 memorial service in '01.

Because Clinton spoke to a church congregation is no reason to get one's hackles up. Well, unless you're a RW'er. Strange, but RW'ers a blind to what their kind do, but are johnny-on-the-spot when others do what they do. It has something to do with projection.

If someone doesn't want their place of worship to address topical political issues, they can find another church to attend or speak directly to a church official. No one will render them mute or hold them captive. If anyone decides to complain about Clinton's speech, we can rest peacefully in the knowledge that a RW'er slithering around DU will be the first to let us all know.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. you are correct, however there are some people here so hostile to religion

that the meaning of the law is not important to them. They would like to remove all religion to a closet somewhere so that they can pretend it doesn't exist.

It's my understanding that churches are tax exempt primarily because they're non-profit organizations. They're not tax exempt because a parish priest or church pastor is (has to remain, or has to become) apolitical. They are, however, prohibited from endorsing a particular candidate, soliciting donations, or using church funds for campaign contributions.

[bearfartinthewoods]

26. you don't have to slither to see that the outlined incident crossed the

line. RWers do do this and a RW church did get it;s tax exempt status pulled according to a report last night. declaring a congregation as the candidate's pssee is over the line. we lose the high ground needed to defend our gioverment from churcg influence if we treat dem/church involvememt with a wink and a nod.

[Isome]

40. a RW church did get it;s tax exempt status pulled

They sure did, deservedly so, too! They handed out political tracts with misinformation and solicited contributions in a round about way. This particular instance is nothing like that, however.

The church didn't endorse a candidate, the pastor was talking about preventing the circumvention of democracy with the RECALL effort. As has been said a couple of times in this thread now, Gray isn't a candidate for office. This is about an attempt to nullify the will of the voters by a disgruntled and well-funded group, with roots outside of the state of California.

[Hubert Flottz]

24. If churches dabble in politics they should pay taxes!

Why should they be tax exempt? Why should church collections be permitted to be funneled to Repubs when everyone in the church doesn't support the people getting the cash? It's the reverse of the union dues argument and it's something that we Democrats should scream bloody murder about!

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. They should be able to say what they want

Churches have done this for decades at least.

As for tax status, that seems to conflict with the 1st Amendment:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[Isome]

33. church collections

They're not at this church, and neither did the pastor (speaker) of the church in question pledge, solicit, or donate church money. That eliminates the need to scream bloody murder about money.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. where are church collections being funneled to Repubs?

If this is happening then yes it should be addressed. However I think you over estimate the church/republican party connection.

Most churches struggle to pay the bills every month and yes that includes a salary for staff. Very few are the great money making enterprizes you see featured on sunday morning TV.

The fact that churches are not taxed protects the idea of church states separation. Unless a church is raising funds for a candidate then they should be left alone.

[Liberator_Rev]

28. If Democrats crossed the line, they SHOULDN'T be called on it

UNLESS Republicans are going to be held to the SAME standards.

If the IRS or whichever institution that might have jurisdiction wants to set up clear guidelines to which ALL parties are going to be held to account, then FINE.

But let's not have another deal like the one where Democrat Clinton got crucified for doing far less than what Republicans get away with doing in spades all the time, i.e.
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/GOPcorruption.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Churches are FREE to discuss ISSUES..the RECALL is an issue

This is why churches can out out a position statement on abortion and then point out candidates who support their POSITION. THey cannot CAMPAIGN for that candidate.

The RECALL is an ISSUE just like ABORTION is an issue.

The talk was ABOUT THE RECALL.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. The IRS is more important than the ACLU here

To be non-taxable and to qualify for tax-exempt contributions, you have to refrain from advocating specific political positions or candidates. That's why contributions to DU are not tax-deductible.

Technically, churches that promote specific candidates or legislation (as an official statement, as opposed to the personal opinions of the members or clergy) should lose their tax-exempt status.

The fundies ignore this, while the mainstream churches usually abide by it, although I wish that the IRS would come down on the fundies for their relentless pushing of Republican candidates and legislative proposals.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Several possible scenarios

1. The church officially endorses a political candidate or position
Problem, due to tax laws. The fundies are in violation big time.

2. The church hosts an after-service forum in which people on both sides of an issue discuss the issue in the light of the church's teachings. No problem, since the church is not officially endorsing any position, even if the discussants come to a consensus.

3. The Sunday service turns into a rally for a particular candidate or cause. Problem, not only because of the tax laws but because of alienating members who support the other side or who resent having an expected spiritual experience turned political.

4. A political group rents a room from a church for weekday meetings. No problem. All sorts of groups rent rooms from churches, and the churches do not necessarily endorse them. My former parish rented space to a Buddhist meditation group.

5. The church declares that it will act in accordance with a particular political position, such as performing wedding ceremonies for gay and lesbian couples or not rousting street people who sleep on its property. No problem.

6. The clergy state principles that members should follow in voting or any other aspect of their lives. The priest in my former parish used to tell us to spend some time thinking before we voted and to look beyond our selfish concerns to ask ourselves how our vote would shape the community's future. No problem.

7. A member of the church stands up during the announcement period and says that she has a political petition and that anyone interested in signing it should see her during coffee hour. No problem. This is an indvidiual initiative.

I hope that a Democratic president would direct the IRS first to send warning letters to churches that are conducting direct political advocacy and telling them to stop or risk losing their tax exempt status.

[playahata1]

35. A little historical perspective is in order.

The black Christian church -- which is different in orientation from most white Christian churches -- has, since slavery, been the most viable means of mobilizing African Americans politically. This is because the church has been one of the few spaces in which black people could gather without interference from the white power structure, as well as one of the few spaces in which a large crowd of blacks is guaranteed.

NOTE: When I say "different in orientation," I mean that elements of African-based spirituality have been incorporated into Christianity. In African spirituality, there is no distinction between the sacred and the secular. EVERYTHING is done to the glory of God (or whatever name is given the Supreme Being). Furthermore, God in the black Christian cosmos is seen as a liberator, not the jealous, vengeful, oppressor deity painted by white fundamentalists.

What I am saying is this: while, yes, you've got your Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and Billy Grahams and Ralph Reeds and James Dobsons and Louis Sheldons and Promise Keepers and whoever the head of the Mormon Church is and whoever the leading U.S. Catholic Archbishop is, what the MLKs, Jesse Jacksons, Wyatt Tee Walkers, Richard Allens, Daniel Alexander Paynes, Eugene Riverses, Johnny Ray Youngbloods -- and even Muslims Elijah Muhammad, Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan and Warith Deen Muhammad -- have done with and through the black church is of a different stripe. Which is not the say that all African Americans follow/have followed their lead politically. I am almost certain that most white Christians do not engage in political activity, let alone endorse certain candidates, simply because their pastor/priest/rabbi tells them to. They have other and just as, if not more, effective means through which to get what they want/need politically. Peace.

[Blue_Chill]

39. Church and state says it's none of your damn business

And if the ACLU has a problem with that they can shove it. Religion deals witht the topic of society which means they must deal with political issues. I don't like the crap I see coming down the church pipeline but I will be damned if I would support the ACLU or anyone that tried to limit what they could say.

[Mari333]

42. Tax them.

Why should I pay high property taxes and they dont? There are 85 churches in our small town and only 2 have a food pantry..the rest have large steeples, new stained glass windows, tennis courts, a pool, and they are just large social clubs.
Tax them if they want to endorse specific politics or candidates. Its as simple as that.