For everyone who thinks Cuba is a flourishing democracy...read this.

[DealsGapRider]

Excellent column from the Washington Post this morning written by Vaclav Havel, Arpad Goncz and Lech Walesa, three champions of human rights.

"Exactly half a year ago, Fidel Castro's regime imprisoned 75 representatives of the Cuban opposition. More than 40 coordinators of the Varela Project and more than 20 journalists and other representatives of various pro-democracy movements landed in jail. All of them were sentenced in mock trials to prison terms ranging from six to 28 years -- merely for daring to express an opinion other than the official one."

"Despite the omnipresent secret police and government propaganda, thousands of Cubans have demonstrated their courage by signing petitions backing Project Varela..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A27042-2003Sep17?language=printer

I don't see how any thinking person can say with a straight face that Cuba is a democracy that respects human rights.

[Kamika]

1. riiiiiight

ok

[meegbear]

2. I've NEVER heard anybody say that

Maybe you need to find a new set of friends.

[DealsGapRider]

8. Maybe you shouldn't be such a jerk.

Did I do anything to you? Grow up.

[Evil_Dewers]

21. Who thought Cuba was a flourishing democracy???

Certainly it was no one here.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Chill]

33. I'm not sure if JanM made such a claim

I only know he was there when such claims were made. Also Jan is as smart as they get so I'm sure he isn't dumb enough to fall for the Saddam 9/11 link.

[JanMichael]

38. Ay caramba!

No to both idiotic assumptions.

<searches madly for the "finger" emoticon>

[JanMichael]

54. I've participated in those threads but never said that Cuba...

...was a "flourishing democracy". It's an experiment, and a People, that needs the US to back the hell off though. Our constant pressure has contributed, rightly so, to the paranoia that grips the government of Cuba. It's a two way issue in my estimation.

Who has defended the election system (1998 Elections book?) of Cuba time and again? I know but I'd rather not say, I'm sure that person will find this thread all by themselves.

BTW: Thanks for the kind words:-)

[madrchsod]

74. judilyn

had the most starting posts this last month on cuba,and nowhere did i see where she implied anything such as democracy. gee looks like i missed them ,but i`ll make up for that today..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. JudiLyn and Mika

are the two most starry-eyed supporters of Cuba, but their opinions are not in the DU mainstream.

Most of us have a more nuanced view of Cuba, unlike either the groupies or the believers of Miami exile propaganda.

[Mika]

139. It is a flourishing democracy

I was just as brainwashed as most Americans before I went to Cuba.

Cuba is nothing like the place we Americans have been led to believe. Nothing.

The first time I went to Cuba I was shocked to hear that there were elections, until my Cuban associates and friends showed me otherwise. Then, I was in Cuba during the 97-98 election season, which includes open debates, open platform creation, open candidate nominations, open run off elections, elections, and ratification elections. No party affiliation is required, but it helps. The union parties seemed to be the most organized and are powerful, but, the Cuban parliamentary systems run by coalitions of several parties.

I came home and tried to explain that I had seen an open and fully public participatory democracy - a different system than our democracy (ahem) but, an open parliamentary type democracy - only to be called a wingnut and out of the mainstream. No shit.. I've been to Cuba several times, including for a longer stay during the elections. I've actually been there, seen it, done it, and I'm looking forward to going again.


Focusing on, and demonizing, Castro is a distraction from the fact that Cuba is sovereign by choice of the Cuban people.



Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party {the Varela petition}
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the Head of State is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been that position since 1976.
___

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

__

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Blue_Chill]

12. Maybe you should pay more attention

There are MANY DUers that say EXACTLY that.

[Brian Sweat]

52. I've never read anything here to suggest that Cuba was a democracy,

but I have read posts that fawn over Castro.

[Cheswick2.0]

79. plenty of people here say it

I could give you a short list of those who trumpet the wonders of Cuban living.

[quinnox]

3. Cuba isn't a democracy

It's a dictatorship. I imagine when Castro is no longer in control, there will be much joy in Cuba.

[Terwilliger]

4. who said that it was?

really...Id like to see some evidence that someone claimed Cuba was a "flourishing democracy"

[DealsGapRider]

7. Are you kidding? I've seen a number of posts on DU

...from people who INSIST that Castro was democratically elected and that Cuba is not a police state.

And for the record, I support ending the embargo.

[Blue_Chill]

17. DealsGapRider is correct many DUers do make such a claim

Ask the DU socialists.

[Evil_Dewers]

24. "Are you kidding? I've seen a number of posts on DU"

Who here posted that they thought Cuba was a flourishing democracy?

Give me names.

[DealsGapRider]

35. I'm trying to find them, but the search function isn't working.

Perhaps someone could help me. I am certain I have seen DUers make statements that Cuba is a democracy, that Castro is democratically elected and that the Cuban legislative assembly is a multi-party body.

[Terwilliger]

45. search function is working for me

maybe you could try again

[DealsGapRider]

49. Here you go.

Knock yourself out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=1068

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Now wait a minute...

I have NEVER seen anyone on this board claim that Castro was democratically elected, and I have been following the Cuba discussions for a long time.

[BurtWorm]

82. Sure you have.

;)

Do you think maybe you're confusing posts about Allende and Castro?

[glarius]

5. Who is saying that?...but continuing the USA boycott is foolish and

doesn't help the Cuban people in the least....There are countries with equal or worse human rights records than Cuba, that the U.S.A. is dealing with....

[ShaneGR]

6. Castro=Scumbag

But how do we get rid of him? It certainly isn't military force. That would be an abysmal disaster.

So I propose you beat him with kindness. End the embargo and force American dollars down the Cuban people's throats. If that happens Castro can no longer act like Capitalism is a bad thing. He will lose control quickly.

[HootieMcBoob]

9. for anybody who thinks up is down...

huh?

[IndianaGreen]

10. Lech Walesa is not a champion of human rights

When Poland was ruled by the Communist Party, women were equal to men and had unrestricted access to birth control and abortion.

When Lech Walesa became President, he instituted misogynist legislation favored by the Polish Catholic Church that stripped women of their equal status and banned their access to birth control and abortion.

Lech Walesa is not a champion of human rights!

[DealsGapRider]

11. Some very smart people disagree.

"Heroes like Lech Walesa in Poland, Vaclav Havel in the Czech Republic, Nelson Mandela in South Africa, and Aung San Suu Kyi in Burma are powerful reminders of how precious our human rights are and how high the cost is to sustain them." -- Bill Clinton

[IndianaGreen]

16. Bill Clinton gave us Plan Colombia

Some very smart and liberal people can commit the most heinous acts, including supporting death squads and totalitarian regimes in Latin America.

[Blue_Chill]

14. So equal status is all about birth control?

whatever you say dude.

[IndianaGreen]

19. Anyone that does not give women full civil rights

can not possibly be considered to be for human rights!

[Blue_Chill]

22. I disagree

The whole world isn't like the US, in many places birth control is not seen as a good thing. It's viewed as incouraging casual sex. It has nothing to do with equal rights and everything to do with the way cultures feel about certain topics we in the US pretend do not matter.

[JVS]

27. I love it when Conservatism dons the liberal multi-cultural mantle.

It just cracks me up.

[Blue_Chill]

32. I'm not a conservative.

And what the fuck do you know about multi-culturalism? Perhaps you've visited a Taco bell?

[Terwilliger]

37. now you're ad hominem

JVS is one of you and called you out...what say, BC?

[JVS]

42. What do you mean by "JVS is one of you?"

just curious?

[Terwilliger]

44. let's just say...

you both have similar beliefs :-)

[JVS]

48. If you mean by our avatars, perhaps

Although I consider myself a rather poor example of a Christian.

If you mean politically, I'm really much more one of yours than one of his. I almost invariably disagree with him on this board.

On Edit: I change avatars every once in a while. I think my next one will be Marx

[Terwilliger]

53. thats right...you consider yourself a poor Christian

thats why I like you :-) :hi:

[Blue_Chill]

56. Where's your pointy hat?

....

[Forkboy]

129. The Popes wearing it

[JVS]

41. I'm not saying that you are a conservative.

But it seems a rather conservative or right-wing stance you are taking on women's rights. You seem to be proposing that curtailments of women's rights are part of some cutures and that we should accept that. If I were to say that "Descrimination against blacks and hispanics is traditional is some cultures, so we should accept it" wouldn't I be wrong? You are using the concept of not judging other cultures by our own standard, which is popular among liberals, to justify Poland's stripping its women of full civil rights, which is not a liberal thing to do.

[Blue_Chill]

50. I see it this way

It's a cultural view on the entire subject of birth control. That is what I am saying. I do not believe that is the same thing as the conservative right in the US which allows all forms of birth control that men can demand (are you on the pill? I can use a condom) but not the one form the is under a womens total control (abortion).

[Terwilliger]

36. like the people who cut women's genitals when they're young?

Tell me that's not a god-based barbarism!

BC, you talk about rights but then try to pick and choose who gets them and why.

[Blue_Chill]

55. whatever

I'm not choosing for anyone, I'm saying that not all things are like they are in the US. In the US the anti-women stance of pro-lifers is obvious in that they have a problem with abortion mostly because it's outside of male control.

[JVS]

23. You are brave to take a firm stand like this. I salute you!

[Mairead]

63. Exactly!

Walensa is actually a conservative Catholic who has successfully made the transition from elected union leader to entrenched bureaucrat.

For Walensa, Solidarnosc went from being a cause to being a tool.

[IrateCitizen]

13. I often wonder what Castro and Cuba would have been like...

... if the US hadn't invested so much energy over the years trying to undermine it, and turn it back into a bastion of casinos, unfettered capitalism, and miserable poverty.

Castro's record on human rights is abysmal. That much is inarguable, based on facts at hand. But it is also clear that he has been incredibly successful in some areas, most notably health care and education. After all, Medicins sans Frontiers sends many of their doctors to Cuba to learn how to successfully diagnose and treat various illnesses and conditions without the benefit of high-tech equipment. The literacy rate in Cuba is extremely high, especially when compared with some of the other nations in the Carribean and Latin America.

But in all of this, it is impossible to ignore that the early attempts to invade, undermine, even assassinate Castro helped undermine ANY possibility of socialism AND democracy taking hold in Cuba. And the end result has been that Castro has taken to authoritarian methods to hold on to power. I am certain that he honestly believes that his vision of socialism IS the best thing for the Cuban people -- and in some instances, he's right. But he also has been forced into the fatal flaw of believing that HE is the one person who can implement this vision, and therefore, is completely unwilling to cede power to anyone else.

I'm not trying to justify his human rights abuses, but given our absolutely diabolical means in undermining the one Latin American state that was making a transition to socialism THROUGH democracy (Allende in Chile), it is something that I think merits notice and analysis.

[DealsGapRider]

30. Stretch

"But in all of this, it is impossible to ignore that the early attempts to invade, undermine, even assassinate Castro helped undermine ANY possibility of socialism AND democracy taking hold in Cuba. And the end result has been that Castro has taken to authoritarian methods to hold on to power." I think this is a real stretch. We haven't made any effort to invade or assassinate Castro in decades, but the repression of human rights continues unabated. And what of the grotesque persecution of homosexuals under Castro. Ever read any Renaldo Arenas? What, pray tell, did the torture he suffered at the hands of the secret police for being gay have to do with US foreign policy?

"I am certain that he honestly believes that his vision of socialism IS the best thing for the Cuban people" So what? Mao probably genuinely believed the Cultural Revolution was good for the Chinese people. Both are still monsters.

[IrateCitizen]

43. It's not a stretch. It's an honest supposition.

Maybe things would be just as bad there, maybe they would be a flourishing democratic/socialist state, or maybe they would be somewhere in between.

BTW, I noted that Castro's records on human rights were abysmal, so there really was no reason for you to dredge up even more info on them. And some of it (like the persecution of homosexuals) I will agree, most likely has absolutely nothing to do with the influence of US foreign policy.

But to state that, "We haven't made any effort to invade or assassinate Castro in decades, but the repression of human rights continues unabated," is just pure folly. It is precisely because of the efforts we made to overthrow him early on that has made him extremely wary of the United States even to this day. But once again, I also acknowledge that he is probably trying to hold on to power for power's sake, as well.

And I would say that your description of Castro as a "monster" on the same level as Mao is a bit of a stretch in and of itself. Castro has made advances in health care, nutrition and education for the Cuban population that Mao could only have dreamed of achieving for China.

In short, you are displaying the same kind of knee-jerk reactionism (Cuba = bad, Castro = evil) as those you accuse of presenting it as a flourishing democracy. It is neither, and the best analysis is to try and look at it with an unbiased eye, weighing its cons (which are many) against its pros (which are also significant).

[DealsGapRider]

62. What does US foreign policy have to do with human rights in Cuba?

"It is precisely because of the efforts we made to overthrow him early on that has made him extremely wary of the United States even to this day."

I don't deny that Castro has been wary of the US and that we tried to invade and assassinate him. But how does that explain, much less justify, his human rights violations? He could still maintain a hostile attitude toward the US without repressing his people. What does locking up someone who dissents against the Cuban government have to do with US foreign policy?

And for the record, I don't have any problem with the Cuban people. Just the oppressive Cuban government. And there is nothing simplistic about saying Castro = evil. He is evil.

[IrateCitizen]

68. Look up the propaganda tactics used against Allende for an example

Allende tried to work through democracy, but the United States actually used the openness of the Chilean political system AGAINST him by running massive propaganda campaigns and inflicting "maximum pain" on the Chilean economy.

Similarly, the US's meddling in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas helped undermine the more democratically-minded elements of that government, and led to severe crackdowns on free speech and free political association.

Ergo, it stands to reason that any leader standing up to the United States would come to believe that ANY kind of opposition to them within their own country would be fostered from the outside. And that is then used as a reason for clamping down on freedoms.

THAT is what US foreign policy can have to do with Cuba. While I am certain that a large part of what has happened there is directly attributable to Castro, it is IMPOSSIBLE to deny the culpability in US foreign policy toward fomenting exactly the kind of behavior you so bemoan today.

[Osolomia]

134. What part of “US government financed dissidents” don’t DUers understand?

I've read the human rights reports over the years and the worst human rights violation against Cuba any of them can come up with is that Cuba harrasses and arrests US government financed "dissidents".

The US government makes no secret whatsoever of this financing, even the 2004 Democractic Presidential contenders are campaigning for millions more in such "aid" to Cuba's "dissidents" yet most DUers seem to be in a state of denial about it to this day.

How do you think foreign financed Al Qaida “dissidents” attempting to overthrow the US government should be treated?

Why do you expect Cuba to treat its US financed “dissidents” any differently?

Huh?

[Nederland]

40. On the other hand

it would also be curious to see what Cuba would be like if it hadn't received billions of dollars in aid from the Soviet Union for years. Sure its sensible to wonder what effect the US efforts to undermine Cuba have had, but it is ignorant to ignore the fact that those efforts were also countered by USSR support. We can only guess at what would have happened had Cuba's development been allowed to progress without interference from either side.

Personally, I see little laudable accomplishment in Cuba. Its rather easy to create good health care and educational system when you don't have to pay for them. What it difficult is to create sustainable social programs that can be paid for by a country's underlying economy. In that respect, the ability of European countries to create excellent, sustainable healthcare and educational systems is a far more impressive accomplishment than anything Cuba has done.

[IrateCitizen]

46. It's important to remember, Nederland...

... that Cuba turned to the Soviet Union only AFTER the US had tried to invade and overthrow their government. Given the very little that the USSR and Cuba actually had in common, the link probably never would have developed if it were not for the instigation of the United States.

As for the sustainable health care and educational industries in Europe, I am certain that their rapid emergence had nothing at all to do with the US rebuilding of Europe through the Marshall Plan after WWII. Not to mention the fact that you're talking about nations that had been allowed to develop and exist for hundreds of years as compared to a former colony.

[Nederland]

60. Sustainability is the key

I do not dispute the fact that what we see in Europe is in part due to the fact that Europe received enormous support via the Marshall plan. However, my main point concerned the creation of sustainable systems. On a per capita basis, the amount of money Europe recieved from the Marshall plan is similar to the amount of money Cuba recieved from the USSR. And yet after the influx of cash from outside sources was removed, we see Europe with robust economies capable of sustaining social programs and Cuba falling to pieces.

[IrateCitizen]

70. Europe is neither a former colony, nor an economic pariah.

Cuba has been both for quite some time.

[Nederland]

87. Response

Let's take it one point at a time.

1) Cuba is a former colony.

The world is full of former colonies that are doing far better than Cuba despite the fact that they never received billions of dollars in aid from a sponser like Cuba did from the USSR. Just look at the rest of Latin America--almost every one of those countries have a colonial history identical to Cuba and yet they all have economies that out perform Cuba.

2) Cuba is an economic pariah.

Cuba is hardly an economic pariah. It trades freely with Europe, Canade, and most of Latin America. Furthermore, I find it odd that you would claim that lack of trade with the US harms Cuba. I seem to recall on other threads that you claimed that the US exploited its third world trading partners. Are you saying that Cuba is an economic pariah because it is missing out on being exploited?

[IrateCitizen]

88. Counter-response

1. There are some other countries in Latin America whose economies are doing better than Cuba's from a GDP standpoint. However, on many social indicators (infant mortality rate, literacy, life expectancy), Cuba is far and above the leader.

However, if you're talking strictly about export value, then you may have a point. But I prefer to focus on the whole picture.

2. Have you ever heard the expression, "The only thing worse than being exploited is being a pariah"? While the unequal trading terms imposed by the US through institutions like the World Bank and IMF have been disastrous to developing economies, it also cannot be argued that a strategy of ZERO TRADE is beneficial, either.

I'm surprised you're still trying to portray my trade views as an either/or dichotomy, when it is quite obvious that they are much more complex than that.

[Nederland]

102. Actually

...you are not focused on the whole picture, you are focused on the past. Again, it comes back to my original point of sustainability. Sure, right now if you compare Cuba to other Latin American countries they have better infant mortality rates, literacy rates, etc. However, those positive numbers are simply the result of systems and infrastructure that were created by billions of dollars in aid from the USSR. Now that that money is gone, those institutions are slowly crumbling and in the long term, the numbers will follow.

As for your second point, I never argued that a "strategy of ZERO TRADE is beneficial". In fact, I specifically pointed out that Cuba does not suffer from zero trade, it freely trades with most of the world. You need to explain why, despite having access to European, Canadian, and Latin American markets, Cuba still cannot get its economic act together.

[IrateCitizen]

103. It's probably due to unyielding statism in the economy.

And I'll bet you're surprised to hear me say that! :evilgrin:

But it's probably the truth. While there are socialist aspects of Cuba's society that led to DRASTIC improvements among the general populace, there has not been enough of a shift toward market competition either. I'm not talking about allowing big corporations in, but rather the building of a strong base of small and medium-sized businesses under which the economy might be able to grow.

Now, don't get me wrong -- the LAST thing I would do would be to open it up to the free-for-all that is modern capitalism. But with the strict statist controls (rather than regulation) on their economy, Cuba has been unable to progress beyond basic agricultural exports.

But all of this is way off topic from the original post, which was about Cuba as being the source of all evil in the Western Hemisphere. ;-)

[Nederland]

114. Bravo

There is hope for both of us yet.

[IrateCitizen]

115. I'm just trying to capitalize on your post on my "liberalism" thread...

... in which you said that for the first time you read a post of mine w/o finding anything major to disagree with. ;-)

Hey, if Thankfully_in_Britain can be coming to general agreement on the World Trade Organization, there's hope for you and I finding agreement. All I have to get you to do is to put down Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek for a while, and ....

Well, I can dream, can't I? :D

[blindpig]

51. GOOD OBSERVATIONS & ANALYSIS

PRETTY MUCH MY SENTIMENTS.........I EXPECT YOU TO BE TOASTED BY OUR RESIDENT REACTIONARIES. HANG TOUGH.

[RichM]

15. It would be easy to find equal "proof" that the USA is not a "democracy

that respects human rights," as well. This pretty much disqualifies you from the category of "thinking person."

[Blue_Chill]

20. Strawman

What the US is or is not does not change anything in this discussion. Stay on topic please.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Sure it does!

What you are suggesting is the moral equivalent of pointing fingers at Mike Tyson for being a rapist, while glossing over William Kennedy Smith or Kobe Bryant's sexual predatory behaviours.

[Blue_Chill]

28. Incorrect. It is a statement made in respsonse to the spread

of disinformation on DU. The claim was made that Cuba was a democracy and that is being shown to be false. The US's status has nothing at all to do with this.

[Terwilliger]

39. OK...who said democracy flourished in Cuba?

I dont think you or DGR has answered that question.

[DealsGapRider]

47. How much crow would you like to eat?

Okay, take a look at this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=1068

[Terwilliger]

58. crow?

I didnt say there was no one saying these things...I just asked for something more definitive

I looked at the thread.

[buddhamama]

18. i can't remember a single person

on DU stating that Cuba was a flourishing Democracy.

i've seen DUers defend,compare and contrast the U.S. and Cuba but never have i seen the word 'democracy' enter in to the discussion.

[madrchsod]

34. - cuba is a flourishing democracy ??????

who believes that? well that was a waste of time and bandwidth...

[DealsGapRider]

59. Ahem

"Cubans speak freely. There are many political parties, including Christian & capitalism espousing parties and platforms. Candidates are selected in their district by a series of runoff elections and ratification elections. The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976." -- Mika

"And the Cuban HR record is better than the US record" -- IndianaGreen

"Contrary to the info passed on to Americans by the anti Castro factions, there will be nationwide and heartfelt grief in Cuba when Mr Castro dies. He is like George Washington to the Cuban people. He is not the be all/ end all to Cubans, but, he is one of the men who lead the way in the beginning, who handed the torch of freedom and democracy to the people." -- Mika

"I think it is because people will know that the US lied to it's people about how bad Cuba is, the travel restiction's purpose is to keep people from finding out "Cuba is a dictatorship" BS is a myth propagated by the butcher Cuban-Americans in Miami." -- The Commie

[Mika]

138. Hey DealsGapRider, you neglected this part of my post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=1068#1113

"I can't find online stats for the 97-98 or 2002-03 elections (when the union candidates fared even better), but here are some 93 stats
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/dictator.htm

* 99% of the electorate voted
* 7% of the ballots were spoiled.
* Of the 589 deputies, 80% of them were elected for the first time. Their average age is 43.
* 77% are men and 23% are women
* 59 of the deputies are peasants or agricultural workers.
* 46 are industrial or manual workers.
* 23 are trades union leaders.
* 25 are intellectual, artists and journalists.
* 29 are teachers and specialists, 10 are secondary and university student leaders

I've been to Cuba and witnessed democratic nominations and elections in 97-98.

How many of you DUers have been to Cuba?

Yep, I'm out of the mainstream in America because I have actually been to Cuba (legally).. many times. I have many Cuban friends that I comunicate with regularly. I look forward to going again.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

57. I have a question... How does America treat people who...

take money from a foreign power which has sworn to overthrow the American government, and has sponsored attacks on American soil, to campaign for just such actions in America?

Does Guantanamo Bay ring a bell? How about Camp X-ray?

Why is America allowed to arrest and imprison traitors without trial, but Cuba is not?

In fact, the linked article calls for MORE foreign support of these traitors, while totally overlooking America's actions. Where is the call from Vaclav Havel, Arpad Goncz and Lech Walesa for support for the Muslims who were rounded up after Sept 11?

"Despite the omnipresent secret police and government propaganda, thousands of Cubans have demonstrated their courage by signing petitions backing Project Varela..."

And Cuba is such an abuser of rights that these people have been rounded up and imprisioned without trial - some being sent to foreign countries to be tortured, other just locked in dog kennels without hope of justice, like the many Muslims rounded up after Sept 11?

Isn't it funny that it takes international (ie US) interference (ie money) to get these Cubans to campaign against their government?

How many times has the US tried to kill Castro? How many Cubans have been murdered by US proxy forces over the years?

And people wonder why anyone who receives outside funding to say that this sort of thing is ok is arrested as a traitor?

I can tell you one thing - I don't like the fact that these people have been arrested any more than you do - however, I like the fact that the US is worse in this regard even less. The fact that people like Vaclav Havel, Arpad Goncz and Lech Walesa can overlook one while condemning the other is rather telling of what they TRULY believe.

How would Lech Walesa have reacted if people were being paid by foreign powers to call for HIS overthrow when he was president of Poland? I'm pretty sure he would have had them arrested as traitors too.

[RichM]

61. The most "antidemocratic" part of Cuba is Guantanamo Bay!

It's hard to blame that on Fidel...

[Devils Advocate NZ]

69. It is a crime in the US and most countries to...

campaign for the overthrow of the government. Hell, even making jokes about burning bushes will get you a visit from the Secret Service (Is that anything like Secret Police??).

Doing so with funding from an enemy government is usually cosidered to be treason, and in many countries (including the US I believe) can be punishable by death.

But it is Cuba that is undemocratic because of its treatment of traitors?

By the way, how does human rights abuses equal undemocratic? As Blue_Chill said, some cultures vew acts of treason far more harshly than we do. Who are we to judge?

After all, abusing the right to have an abortion is the same as abusing the right to commit treason isn't it? Yet Poland under Lech Valesa was said to be democratic.

[DealsGapRider]

71. What a ridiculous statement.

Gitmo is a Marine installation. Glad to know you think so highly of those who wear the uniform.

Or if you're just referring to the prison, it's even more asinine of a statement. Of course it isn't an oasis of democracy. It's a friggin' prison full of terrorists and anti-women, anti-gay Muslim fundamentalists. How would you like it if we released them all in your neighborhood?

[Terwilliger]

73. what a Republican talking point

:eyes:

Gitmo is an example of US imperialism and self-bestowed primacy. Castro may be a lot of things, but Gitmo is an incursion on their state, and it's an example of why people don't like the US.

[Forkboy]

75. How do you know what Gitmo is full of?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. Yes, at least some of the prisoners

have been released after months of confinement after it was determined that they were innocent civilians who got caught up in sweeps or who had been dragooned into forced labor.

Being detained for no good reason thousands of miles from home is really going to increase their friendly feelings towards the U.S., isn't it?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

77. Is it? When were they convicted?

Or are you just full of Bush propaganda? (AKA shit)

Last I heard, Bush was saying that they couldn't hold trials because they wouldn't be convicted under civillian laws, and that military trials were not needed because they were assumed to be guilty (except for those ones recently released who managed to prove they were innocent even without a fair trial).

[RichM]

90. HA ha ha -- you sound just like Ollie North!

Come on, admit it - Ollie's one of your heroes, isn't he?

PS - I didn't say a word about "those who wear the uniform." They are simply the hired help.

[Sideways]

119. Cut The Shit About Those Who Wear the Uniform

Gitmo is illegal amoral and insane it has nothing to do with those who wear the uniform and everything to do with the fucked up US Patriot Act.

As to your assertions that:

"It's a friggin' prison full of terrorists and anti-women, anti-gay Muslim fundamentalists"

Exactly how the fuck would you know that? Because AssCrack said so?

Your post is rife with racism. Are you aware that many AMERICAN CITIZENS are being held at Gitmo? Because they have Middle Eastern heritage yet they are AMERICANS. Didn't Rush clarify that point?

As to your ridiculous and patheticly pedantic question:

"How would you like it if we released them all in your neighborhood?"

This just stinks and smacks with the same kind of crap that ignorant whites said about blacks.

Really dude or fuckwittage dudeness I would rather have them in my neighborhood than YOU.

Oh and BTW I am a military kid and my Dad happens to be a retired Admiral. He just for the record thinks Gitmo alone should be the death of Bush and he is a Repug.

[Forkboy]

122. Hi Mary

Great to see you around :hi:

[IrateCitizen]

125. So, you're saying you disagree with the initial poster???

:hi:

Good to see you as always, MaryT. Remind me to never get on your bad side....

[Forkboy]

128. I've been on her bad side

and it wasn't fun :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. The point is not that Cuba is some sort of paradise, BUT...

compared to many other island nations in the Caribbean, such as Haiti or Jamaica, it has achieved high levels of literacy and health care.

Yes, it is a dictatorship, but while I agree that one political prisoner is too many, it is the height of hypocrisy to damn Cuba, as the Reagan administration did in the 1980s, while simultaneously throwing money at the Salvadoran generals (who murdered a wide range of people, from archbishops to peasant children, at the rate of up to 200 per month) and the Nicaraguan Contras (who specifically targeted schools, health clinics, irrigation projects, and other Sandinista attempts to improve the lives of the peasants.)

I would urge everyone on both sides of the Cuba issue to see the movie Honey for Oshun, which plays on the Sundance Channel pretty often and is probably out on video. It is remarkably frank about the problems that the country faces, including over-zealous police and special favors for foreign visitors, but also shows some attractive features of the culture as well.

Having seen many Chinese and Iranian films and films from the old Soviet Union, I cannot recall an officially permitted film from a dictatorship being so direct about the flaws of the society. (Some of the most critical Chinese and Iranian films are banned in their home countries. I have seen nothing about Honey for Oshun being banned in Cuba.

So let's get some perspective here. Cuba is the country that conservatives love to hate. Yet even the most rabid Miami exiles have never accused Castro of the kind of wholesale massacres that were horrifyingly common in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Nicaragua (perpetrated by the Contras), and which continue in Colombia to this day.

Yup, El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala had human rights records that were as bad as or worse than Cuba's: no freedom of speech, freedom of religion only as long as your church supported the government, no freedom to organize or assemble, limited freedom of the press (although most people couldn't read anyway), death squads that would drag you off and torture and kill you on the mere suspicion of anti-government activity or union organizing or organizing charities for the poor or for criticizing the murders of other people--none of that wimpy keeping dissidents in prison stuff. They had horrible human rights records and to top it off, the majority of the population had no access to education, health care, clean drinking water, or nutritionally adequate food. Meanwhile, small groups of elites (like the "fourteen families" of El Salvador) lived like royalty.

Today, with the Sandinistas out of power (narrowly voted out after the Bush Sr. administration promised to stop the Contras if the Nicaraguans voted "correctly"), Nicaragua has rejoined Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras on the list of "good" countries. The common people still live miserable lives, but at least they're available for sweatshop labor. (Look at your clothing labels.) Having elections that offer a choice between very right wing and extremely right wing candidates and allowing foreign investors a free hand to build sweatshops make Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and El Salvador "fledgling democracies," while Cuba remains "a Communist dictatorship."

So while acknowledging that Cuba's human rights situation is not ideal, I have to applaud its sincere efforts to ensure a minimum living standard for its people along with very good education, health care, and support for the arts.

I'd bet that if your average Central American peasant or sweatshop worker were to go to Cuba, he'd think he'd died and gone to heaven. A North American probably wouldn't, but it all depends on where you're starting from.

[IrateCitizen]

76. Well stated, Lydia.

While I harbor no illusions of Cuba being some sort of socialist paradise, it amazes me to no end when those who want to talk about some being knee-jerk in their rosy assessments of it are just as knee-jerk in their condemnation.

Your post really hit the nail on the head. And all of our Latin American policy has been predicated on the "domino effect" -- that being, if even one, small, inconsequential country is able to successfully transition to any degree of socialism and improve the quality of life for the vast majority of its citizens, it just might give OTHERS the idea that they can do the same. Since WE can't have that, we have to either overthrow them, or squeeze them until they pop.

That's the thing that kills RWers about Cuba. They've undermined and squeezed for the past 40+ years, but although they're struggling, they just won't POP! Of course, they also aren't able to present an example of success to the rest of Latin America, either.

[Tatiana]

65. I'm still not seeing where...

anyone calls Cuba a "flourishing democracy." I think the position of many is that Cuba has serious issues, but our (U.S.) meddling has likely contributed to the problems, rather than helped to solve them.

[madrchsod]

66. i`ve gone over a month`s

worth of posts on cuba,well i skimmed, found one that "seemed" to be defending cuba. a fast skim of the threads seemed to not back up the statement"for everyone who thinks cuba is a flourishing democracy.." i find no great out pouring of "cuba is a democracy"...the one post i found was on aug 30th. bay city progressive posted it..i don`t know how to post threads..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. I'm far more concerned about our flourishing Democracy locking up

Lynne Stewart, a civil rights lawyer. I really don't think we have much room to talk right now.

[Terwilliger]

81. are those charges still pending?

I heard her on Democracy Now, but that was like a month ago

[DealsGapRider]

83. What's the term again....oh yes, moral relativism.

There is very good reason to believe that Lynne Stewart has enabled her radical terrorist client to communicate with his followers in Egypt. Arresting her is hardly a human rights example. Either way, there's no way you can compare her case to, say, rounding up gays and lesbians and thowing them in concentration camps, which takes place under Castro. In fact, attempting to compare our justice system with Castro's is revolting.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. A term created by the RIGHT..I don't respond to right wing propaganda

And it's a bit hyperbolic to suggest I am comparing OUR system to Castro. I simply stated that I am MORE concerned about our system when it isn't working properly. Stewart had a right to privacy when meeting with her client.

[IrateCitizen]

85. Then please cite those "very good reasons"

Because the last time I checked, Lynne Stewart was an attorney who had a history of defending those who would not otherwise be defended in our legal system. Her career has been one based on performing a service that few others are willing to perform.

Where you draw the correlation between this, and her enabling of a client to communicate with his followers, is completely unknown to me -- or many others on this board.

Please cite your evidence for making such a bold accusation, other than heresay or supposition.

[Forkboy]

86. You were so busy handing out crow earlier

so how about answering my question; How do you know what Gitmo is full of?

[DealsGapRider]

91. I know it is full of people who were deemed by our armed forces...

...and intelligence personnel to be terrorists or Taliban members. These people are neither Republicans or Democrats...they are our defenders and yes, I trust them. It's not like Ashcroft was the one out rounding these people up.

Does that mean they don't make mistakes? Of course not. But I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. And I believe that while there may be exceptions, the vast majority of the people in Gitmo deserve to be there.

Here's what Congressman Peter DeFazio, past chairman of the HOUSE PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS, had to say about it:

"Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Oregon, confirmed the military position. 'I believe that the United States is in fact exceeding the requirements of international law and human rights in the treatment of these people,' DeFazio said."

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/26/ret.guantanamo.detainees/?related

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. Oh, well!

If our military, which has never, of course, lied to us, says that these people are so dangerous that they must be held (for how long?) without even the trials that were accorded to Nazi war criminals, then who am I to wonder if maybe this type of treatment will only harden the resolve of the prisoners and their associates to wreak vengeance on the U.S.

[DealsGapRider]

104. I tell you what.

Why don't you, Noam Chomsky and Dennis Kucinich go marching around with big signs telling the American people that our military if full of serial liars, the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay should all be turned loose and we should adopt Cuba's system of government. I bet that would really resonate with the electorate. If every Democrat thought like you, we would hold about three seats in Congress -- Eugene, Berkeley, Ann Arbor -- and never elect another President EVER.

It is lunacy to suggest that if these people can't be convicted in an internation court, they should be released. Sorry, a lot of al Qaeda terrorists and other miscreants were picked up in Afghanistan bearing arms and firing at American troops. How exactly are you going to prove that when the only witnesses were al Qaeda foot soldiers and US troops. After all, American military personnel are big, fat liars, right?

[IrateCitizen]

118. What a complete ad-hominem cop-out!

Why don't you, Noam Chomsky and Dennis Kucinich go marching around with big signs telling the American people that our military if full of serial liars, the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay should all be turned loose and we should adopt Cuba's system of government. I bet that would really resonate with the electorate. If every Democrat thought like you, we would hold about three seats in Congress -- Eugene, Berkeley, Ann Arbor -- and never elect another President EVER.

I guess if you can't respond in a rational manner, to rational points brought up through the course of a debate, the best course of action is to simply smear your opponent as some kind of out-of-left-field wacko.

Sorry, DealsGapRider. You're not going to score any points for this kind of immature behavior here. :thumbsdown:

[U4ikLefty]

140. I agree!!!

:thumbsdown:

[Forkboy]

99. " requirements of international law and human rights..."

no charges,no open trials....that's some human rights we're championing there.

[DealsGapRider]

110. Can you explain to me how we're supposed to convict these people?

Say we picked up a bunch of Saudis in Afghanistan who were firing at American troops during Operation Anaconda. How are we supposed to prove in an open trial that the prisoner really was captured in Afghanistan and that he was firing at US troops? The only witnesses are the prisoner and his captors. If he was captured on the battlefield, chances are that there aren't a lot of objective witnesses around.

Face it, before the war Afghanistan was crawling with Arabs -- not Afghans, but Arabs -- who received training in al Qaeda camps and were allied with the Taliban government. When we invaded, we captured many of them. So, you have to ask yourself, do you hold fast to the notion that every one of those men who can't be convicted in court should be set free (knowing that you will be releasing known terrorists and endangering the lives of innocent people) or do you hold them in perpetuity? I say the latter.

I'm sorry. The stakes are too high. We cannot afford to take chances and let these people go just because it might offend the sensibilities of a few exceedingly impractical people who devote a huge amount of their time to identifying ways in which the US has wronged the people of the world over the last century.

[Forkboy]

123. Wow

I dont even know how to respond to so much right-wing drivel dumped on us all at once.

offend the sensibilities of a few exceedingly impractical people

those damn pesky people who actually care about human rights.How dare they stick up for such things.

You make Rush proud. :puke:

On edit-I also hope that everyone thinks about your phrase "crawling with Arabs".

[oldcoot]

137. So what is your problem with Cuba?

Cuban government and law enforcement officials would agree with everything in your post. They would argue that many of the people in prison belong there and that these people are a threat. The Cuban government probably would even describe some of these individuals as terrorists and that releasing them would endanger innocent people. In some cases, they would probably be right.

If good Americans are willing to violate the civil liberties of alleged terrorists because it is "too dangerous" to treat them fairly, then how can we criticize other nations for ignoring civil rights?

[IrateCitizen]

100. Then why Amnesty International has been so outspoken about it?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510782003

For additional perusal, a piece from Human Rights Watch
http://hrw.org/editorials/2003/us033103.htm

But, perhaps we should just ignore these NGO's, because they're probably a bunch of commies and French-lovers anyway, right? :eyes:

[Nederland]

89. Question for the pro-Cuba crowd

If we took two people, one walking around Washington DC with a sign that said "Bush Sucks", and walking around Havana with a sign that said "Castro Sucks" (in spanish, of course), who would get arrested first?

Just wondering...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. Better comparison

If you were an archbishop who preached against death squads, how long before you got gunned down in your cathedral during a service?

If you were an American missionary nun working to better the lot of the poor, how long before you were raped and murdered at a military checkpoint?

If you were a peasant whose neighbors had provided food to the guerillas, how long before your whole village was massacred?

If you were suspected of being a labor organizer, how long before the army broke into the house and tried to get you to talk by burning your child with cigarettes?

All of these things happened in El Salvador while the Reagan administration was showering its military with money. The rule seems to be that if you allow U.S. corporations free reign in your country, you can get away with anything, but if you don't, you're evil. Period.

Yes, that was then, and this is now, but we're not comparing Cuba with the U.S. I'll grant that the U.S. is more democratic than Cuba, and I never said it wasn't. But it isn't the embodiment of pure evil that the Miami exiles (many of whom haven't been there for forty years) claim it is either.

[Nederland]

95. Thank you

I'll grant that the U.S. is more democratic than Cuba, and I never said it wasn't.

A fair answer to my question. I'm wondering if the other pro-Cuba people here would be willing to admit the same.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

124. The US is more democratic than Cuba? Can you remind me how Bush

became president? It sure wasn't because he won the election!

Still, no point in comparing the "leader of the free world" with a nation that has been under US threat of invasion (including at least one failed attempt) for nearly half a century.

Who would expect "the leader of the free world" to have to live up to it's own standards?

[Nederland]

132. Good Lord

Are you actually suggesting that Cuba is more democratic than the US?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

142. No, what I am suggesting is that the US can't possibly

criticise Cuba's democratic process when it's own is thoroughly corrupt, and neither can it criticise Cuba's human rights record when it's own is not much better.

What makes it worse is that the US hypocritically proclaims itself the "leader of the free world" while having a system that is in reality not much better than Cuba's.

Cuba has never had a chance to be truly democratic, because outside manipulation from the US gaurantees that no fully free election is possible. In fact, the US wants Cuba to adopt exactly the same kind of "democracy" that allowed the rich to rule the US.

Here we sit at DU criticising Bush for stealing an election and the media for enabling it, and then criticise Cuba for trying to prevent such things? The hypocrisy is astounding.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. Pro Cuba crowd?

Question for the ANTI-CUBA crowd...please differentiate your opinions on Cuba where dissenters are treated poorly and China where we do business with NO sanctions in place for human rights abuses....


I'll bet you love it when the tables are turned...don't you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

98. Yes, NSMA. Why China and not Cuba?

I've been to China. People are afraid to speak openly there, and every university official has a Communist Party "shadow" whose job it is to make sure that he stays on the straight and narrow.

Yet Americans are free, nay, encouraged to invest and travel in China. Illegal emigres from China are mostly deported as "economic refugees," while illegal emigres from Cuba automatically get refugee status if they can make landfall.

Why is that?

Could it be because China offers opportunities to set up sweatshops free of labor and environmental laws and lets American fast food chains establish outlets in major cities and Cuba doesn't?

Our government wouldn't be that mercenary--or would it? By any measure, China's human rights record is as bad as Cuba's, and much worse if you count the Cultural Revolution. So why is it "China good, Cuba bad"?

[DealsGapRider]

101. There's no question that the Cuba embargo is inconsistent.

And I support ending the embargo immediately. But that doesn't mean anyone should rush to defend Castro or suggest that America is to blame for the wretched things he has done to the Cuban people.

Also, it's important to note that precisely TWO countries in the world honor the US embargo: the US and Israel. So it's ridiculous to suggest, as some have here, that the embargo is responsible for the miserable poverty that most Cubans live in. Countries all over the world trade with Cuba.

[Nederland]

107. Agreed

The embargo is dumb.

You have to admit that its interesting that so many people (except Lydia Leftcoast) are avoiding the question. All they want to do is bring up other examples that I don't even disagree with them on. Why can't they just admit the obvious: Cuba is less democratic and less free than the US?

[IrateCitizen]

109. In answer to your simplistic question, you are right.

However, you will notice that Lydia and I BOTH went into a little more depth to show how much the US really supports "democracy" and "human rights".

Since the United States exerts an incredible amount of influence on the rest of the world, it is impossible to adequately discuss these matters without taking that fact into some kind of context.

[Nederland]

117. True

It is necessary to ask how much the US really supports "democracy" and "human rights" in the rest of the world. However, what I find is that the only countries that support "democracy" and "human rights" more than the US are inevitably countries that have little power and influence. One has to wonder what their record would be like if they actually had the means to back up their lofty rhetoric.

Is the US perfect? Far from it. In terms of defending democracy and human rights it probably falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. However, I firmly believe that the US has acted in a far more moral way than any other power in history that ever held the advantages the US now holds. Every other country in history that held the type of vast military and economic superiority that the US now holds promptly went off and tried to conquer the world. Yes, the US is doing exactly that in a less violent way, but that is precisely my point: it is less violent. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that worthy of even a slight bit of affirmation?

Unlike so many people here at DU I am not in the least bit ashamed of my country. I have absolutely no doubt that on balance, the United States influence on the world has been overwhelmingly positive. When this country was founded, the US was the only constitutional democracy on the planet. Over two hundred years later a majority of the world's governments are based upon the principles that were first put into practice here: democracy, freedom, the rule of law. Sure, we have huge gaping embarassments in our histiry like slavery that people love to throw into our faces, but what country doesn't? Name another country on the planet that ever has held the type of power the US now holds that doesn't have something in its past that is despicable. I certainly don't know of one.

[IrateCitizen]

121. Now we're REALLY veering off-topic with discussions of power politics

I know you may not agree with me in this instance, but this is one of the areas in which I really must value Noam Chomsky. He has done as much work as anyone to expose the dynamics of power politics, and the consequences of them.

The United States is little different in this manner than ANY of the empires throughout history. As we have grown in power -- a power held, as in all empires or states, by a very small segment of the population -- we have become tempted to expand and consolidate that power.

You are correct in stating that we are doing it in a "less violent manner" than at any other time in history. But I would counter by saying that this is due to an evolution in the way in which the world views the application of naked violence to achieve self-serving ends, than anything else. Ancient Rome was incredibly brutal compared to the United States of today -- but they were not viewed as any more or less brutal than other competing sovereignties of their time.

And in stating that America, as all nations, has glaring offenses to basic humanity in its past is simply affirming the fact that it is a nation-state. As such, it is not a moral creation, and is bound to act in its own narrow self-interest above all else, at least according to modern definition. ALL nation-states that have been around for ANY considerable length of time have a past that they would rather forget.

Finally, I would say that if there is one thing I am ashamed of regarding my country, it is the way in which the founding ideals of it have been twisted over the years by so many for completely immoral and self-serving ends. In fact, I am often amazed that we have been able to hold out as long as we have, while pursuing an imperial foreign policy ever since the Spanish-American War of 1898. But it is clear that we are reaching a watershed moment, in which we must decide whether we will pursue empire or go back to being a democratic republic. Some may call that a sense of shame, I simply refer to it as "calling them as I see them."

[Devils Advocate NZ]

127. Less violent?

I am sure the tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civillians wioll agree with you. How about the millions in Viet Nam? Or the hundreds of thousands if not millions in South America?

Less violent my arse.

[Nederland]

130. Compared to Whom?

Again, I made a comparision, not an absolute statement. Have US actions resulted in the deaths of many people. Yes. The question is, has any other dominant power in history cause fewer deaths (relative to population size, of course)? If you believe there is such a power, name it.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

143. None that claimed to be "the leader of the free world"

while simultaneously crushing that very freedom in every nation it sank its hooks into, including its own.

I am not arguing that there were better empires, I am arguing that the US CLAIMS to be a better empire, just as you have, and the truth is, IT'S NOT.

[Muddleoftheroad]

116. Keep the embargo

Embargoes are a nation's way of saying it doesn't like the actions of another nation. We don't like Castro and the actions he takes. Hell, I wish we would do this more often, not less.

[Nederland]

120. Disagree

Embargoes are a way of punishing the people that live in a country when we should be punishing the leaders of that country. Did Mu'ammar Qadhafi suffer from Libyan sanctions? Did Saddam Hussein suffer from Iraqi sanctions? Did P. W. Botha suffer from South African sanctions? No. It always the people that suffer, and poor people most of all.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

126. Hiw did George W Bush become President of the US?

What were you saying about democracy?

[Nederland]

131. At least Al Gore had a chance

Castro's opponent didn't even have that. Especially when one considers that he didn't even have an opponent.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

144. Did he?

So are you saying that all the manipulation that led to the stealing of the election happened AFTER the ballots were cast?

What about the months of media lies that made it seem POSSIBLE that Gore lost? What about the voter roll scrubbing that happened months in advance of the election?

But, I wasn't refering to the fact that it was stolen, but the fact that Gore got a majority of the votes, even in the official results, but still did not become president.

How can a democracy be said to exist when it is possible for the winner to be the man that DID NOT get the majority of the votes? Remember the so-called popular vote? I seem to remember that the official figures had half a million more people voting for Gore, but becuase of the structure of the electoral college having a majority of the "popular vote" was not enough to gain a victory - what mattered is where you got your votes, not how many you got.

Is that democracy? I sure don't think so.

[Nederland]

147. I guess

..you think we should just give up now and not bother nominating a candidate seeing how democracy is already dead?

[IrateCitizen]

148. That's not the argument being made, Nederland.

You have asserted that the United States is a flourishing democracy as compared to Cuba.

DevilsAdvocateNZ has countered by asking how the US can be such an enlightened democracy if the 2000 Presidential election was stolen from start to finish.

The question at hand is not whether or not we should bother to field a candidate since democracy is dead. The question is whether or not the US actually IS a functioning democracy at the highest level of its government -- one which you have attempted to avoid by changing the subject.

NOW, just answer the question at hand rather than trying to deflect it.

[Nederland]

149. Never used the word "flourishing" Chris

I merely said that the US was "more" democratic than Cuba.

Why do I say this? Its rather simple, actually. Since Castro took power, the US has had (if I did my math correctly) 22 an national elections. Every two years we have Congressional elections, and every four years we have a presidential election. In these elections we have a choice of multiple candidates from multiple parties. Since Castro took power, we have seen the party controlling the White House change six times, the party controlling the Senate change four times, and the party controlling the House change twice.

Now let's compare this democratic history to Cuba's.

Since Castro took power, there have been a handful of elections held at odd times of Castro's choosing. In these elections voters do not have a choice of candidate and do not have a choice of parties. The people that appear on the ballot are all there because the controlling Communist party has put them there. In all the years since Castro took power there has never been a power shift. Never. Castro is always in control, and the Communist Party is always in control. There is no choice for the voters.

Is the US more Democratic than Cuba? You bet it is and only an idiot would think otherwise. Am I pissed off that the Supreme Court decided the election? Sure, but at least we had and election and at least we had more than one choice in our election. I'm also confident that in 2004 we will have another election and we will again have more than one choice on the ballot. If its another very close election will the Repukes try to steal it again? You bet. But at least we have a chance of ousting the person at the top. That's more than the people of Cuba have had in over forty years.

[IrateCitizen]

96. I'm disappointed to see such a strawman from you, Nederland

First off, nobody here is what I guess you could call the "pro-Cuba" crowd. Many of us just like to look at them in a more subjective manner than to simply believe that they are the primary source of evil in the Western Hemisphere.

Secondly, political violence is generally not conducted against people within the United States. It is more often carried out by client states or insurgency elements with our clear support.

For example, when Catholic Archbishop Oscar Romero was murdered in El Salvador, it was not done directly by the United States government. It was, however, an act that was carried out by El Salvadoran troops who were largely funded by US aid, whose officers were trained at the US-sponsored "School of the Americas", and who were carrying rifles and machine guns supplied by the US. And, they were ideologically supported by the United States, as well -- because they were stopping a movement started by the Catholic Church in Latin America that preached "preferential treatment of the poor".

So, did the US do this directly? No. But it was certainly done with more than us "looking the other way". In fact, when it has come to a choice for this country to support either human rights or capitalism, we have unerringly fell on the side of capitalism. The image of the United States as the prime global defender of human rights is one of the biggest myths perpetuated in recent history.

I would imagine that if Lech Walesa had been a Latin American organizing for workers' rights, he would have ended up face down in a ditch. It was because he was speaking out against economic statism that he was lauded, not because of any commitment to human rights.

[SweetZombieJesus]

97. Bravo

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Nederland]

105. Its just a question

nobody forced you to answer.

[IrateCitizen]

108. But since I did answer, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

My main protestation was to your liberal use of the "pro-Cuba" label, which often connotates images of being tarred a "commie". :grr:

Other than that, I thought my answer was pretty damned balanced. :shrug:

[Nederland]

111. Sorry

Instead of saying "pro-Cuba crowd" I should have said "those inclined to defend Cuba's social, economic and political record." Of course, that is too long to fit into the subject line...

[IrateCitizen]

112. You could always abbreviate...

Like this:

Fr thse inclnd 2 dfnd Cuba socl, ecnmc & pltcl rcrd

That might have fit a little better. :evilgrin:

[MrPrax]

106. Funny Thread...

Everyone compare's Cuba to the US?

But it is spanish derived and as such why would the US necessarily be a model for Cuba to follow?

The self-importance of the American Way rap seems to have to do with confidence building than any real discussion of geo-politics, democracy or human rights

The case by the WP is bolstered by 'foreigners' as if to annoint this purely American view...
What no Latin American scholars to 'attack' Cuba?

Again this seems to be done to frame the imperialist rap that Cuba is part of America and the US has some eternal right to dictate human rights, freedom, democracy.

And nowhere (as usual) is any comparison made to any of the other shinning paragons of US freedom in that same region: Jamaica, Haiti, Domincan Republic, Bahamas, PR, or anything in central America...

It is similar to the 'all knowing, but never examined' contention that the US and it's foreign policy have actually produced democracy and freedom anywhere in the world...

Even if a country like AF is attacked and occupied, the 'programming' still requires Americans to ignore that and still bleep on about democracy and freedom in Iraq...

[Nederland]

113. Yeah

It is similar to the 'all knowing, but never examined' contention that the US and it's foreign policy have actually produced democracy and freedom anywhere in the world...

Nobody has ever examined the role the US played in creating democratic institutions in Germany and Japan. </sarcasm>

[Osolomia]

133. Travel banned DUers spewing their cold war fantasies yet again

And still nary an iota of a clue of what’s actually happening and why despite the mountain of evidence under their noses.

The Batitistiano Dems* around here almost make the repukes look good.

Shame!

[Osolomia]

135. FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO LEARN about "democracy" in Cuba

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections, By Arnold August
A review by Jennifer Wager

Defining democracy can prove a contentious task, but in his recently published book, Canadian author Arnold August uses an old and rather simple source: Abraham Lincoln's description of democracy as "rule by the people, for the people." Having a working definition, August then sets out to empirically document the Cuban democratic system.

Make no mistake, however, this is no Western travalogue, dragging along a "white man's burden" to validate or denigrate its Third World subject. August is an explicitly anti-imperialist scholar, with a rigor that might make a WEB. Du Bois nod approvingly. The author instead aims to describe the Cuban democratic process for a North American audience that knows little or nothing about the island nation.

August begins with a basic historical overview of the evolution of Cuban democracy, which encompasses a significant portion of the book. August takes us all the way back to the colonial period and the formation of the ideals of nationhood and the struggles for independence, from the Cuban Wars of Independence and the US intervention and occupation, to the neo-colonial republic, up to the struggles of the Cuban Revolution, which, according to August, heralded the realization of true democracy. The historical section is important and readers would be wise
to not skim over this rich chronicles of Cuban history.

The historical chapters give North American readers an idea of Cubans' strong desire for freedom and democracy and how this desire was forged in the long and bitter struggles for independence — first from Spain, then from the US. The historical background exposes the oft-told lie that what Cuba needs -- what Cubans want now -- is US style capitalist democracy. August deftly proves that Cuba has already "been there, done that" during its half-century tenure as a US neo-colony, when US corporations ruled the island and Cuban
dictators, including the hated Machado and Batista, where hand-picked by US powerbrokers in Washington and New York. In addition, August includes an entire chapter dedicated to explaining Cuban the "perfecting" and "rectification" process and the reforms that Cuba made during the 1990s to deal with the simultaneous effects of the tightening of the US blockade and the fall of the formerly Socialist countries of Eastern Europe.

After almost two years researching the book and one year writing it, August paints a detailed picture of a system that works from the ground up -- from the neighborhood level, where candidates are nominated block by block. August made his study a comprehensive one, by actively observing the elections process in both the city (the municipality of Plaza de la Revolucion in Havana) and the countryside (in the province of Cienfuegos). Indeed, the author lived with a delegate to assembly representing the municipality of Plaza de la Revolucion, one of 15 municipalities that comprise Havana. Each municipality has their own assembly.

Amazingly, the book covers every significant step of the 1997-98 political process, from nominations of municipal delegates in September 1997 to the "accountability" meetings, in April-May 1998, during which citizens "check up" on the progress that the delegates they elected have made in addressing the concerns of the citizenry. Since North Americans know so little about the Cuban political system, the book packs quite a few refreshing surprises:

More...
At the Pastors for Peace website:
http://www.ifconews.org/cudemocracy.html

[Cascadian]

136. There is a bad side and a good side to Cuba.

On the good side, at least the literacy rate is one of the highest in Latin America. The education system is a right not a priviledge. Plus, they have universal health care. On the down side, I do agree that the Cuban people need greater freedom of speech and I believe that will happen eventually once Castro fades away. Let's not make no mistake. The Cuban people deserve democracy and the only way it can start up is by ending that U.S. boycott and normalize relations with the U.S. It's been over 40 years and it has failed miserably.

John

[haymaker]

141. You certainly showed all them Cuba lovers!

How many are there again?

[Osolomia]

145. The “pro-Cuba” crowd includes a BIPARTISAN MAJORITY in the USA!

You are all aware of the bipartisan majority vote in the House last week for the 4th year in a row on Americans’ freedom to travel to Cuba are you not? And of the upcoming vote in the Senate? And of Bush’s threatened veto?

Surely you’ve heard about the 38 US states that have signed $380 million in sales to Cuba since an historic trade fair in Havana last year. Or the steady flow of US businessmen and government officials to Cuba ever since along with the hundreds of thousands of Cuban-American “exiles” who supposedly fled for their lives yet freely travel back and forth across the Florida Straits and spend all the money they want there?

How about the annual votes in the UN unanimously condemning the USA’s embargo against Cuba for over 10 years now?

And of course, anyone who posts news articles about what’s happening as we speak must be “pro-Cuba” too.

I could go on but you ought to get the picture by now.

It’s quite the “pro-Cuba” crowd is it not?!

In fact, they’re popping up all over the place as today’s news alone articles go to show:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=121626&mesg_id=121626

There’s no excuse for DUers not to know what’s really going on by now, and to take a stand against the disgraceful ignorance and bigotry and hatemongering that is so prevalent on this forum, especially with an election campaign going on where the candidates prefer to continue pandering to this extremist right wing minority more than 10 years after the Cold War ended.

[Mika]

146. How many Cuba lovers? over 12 million

"You certainly showed all them Cuba lovers!
How many are there again? "



Over 12 million.. and that's in Cuba alone.

Plus, there are millions of Cuba lovers the world over.. of course, unlike so many DUers and Americans in general, they have actual experience with or in Cuba (so, they actually know something about the island and its politics).