Why are so many of you against our troops?

[No Passaran]

I can't help but notice in a lot of posts here on DU, whenever a soldier dies and/or a civilian has been accidentally killed, you go and blame regular soldiers. I am one of those who just returned from Iraq. You can't begin to imagine the conditions and psychological hell that we had to go thru while over there. You think we wanted to be there? No. Every time we went out on a mission, you pull out a picture of your loved one, kiss it, and hope they treat you better when you get back home than those poor Vietnam War veterans. Let's support our soldiers and get on the higher ups and put some pressure on them to bring them all back home.

Those that died today probably had a wife, kids and were someone's sons and daughters. They probably kissed a picture of their wife and/or kids before they went out on this mission thinking everything's gonna be all right. Now they're gone.

[AWD]

1. You must not have been paying attention

For a LONG time now, many of us were activley trying to prevent the war from taking the lives of our soldiers.

We demanded, in the streets, that our men and women not be sent overthere to die for oil. NONE of us want them to die, and we ARE calling for their return.

Frankly, I'm insulted that you would think I cheer such death. I organized, and fought every day against this occupation.

[Flying_Pig]

33. Same for me (what AWD said),..... Having said that, it is your .........

commanders we are against, particularly, your commander-in-chief. As for the grunts, they are just doing as ordered.

I know for some here, it might be hard to forgive the many soldiers who cheered on Bush (while saying horrible things about Clinton), voted for him, supported his illegal war by thrusting their fists into the air with a big huzza!, and in essence, are supporting this flithy regime to the fullest. As for me, I don't hold a grudge. We are all victims of these bastards, and the sooner we get rid of them,and bring our troops home, the happier we'll all be.

Anyway, welcome home. Join us in removing these fascists, in what is a truly meaningful effort to save our democracy.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

123. Democrats support our troops, Republicans use them as security guards

for oil companies.

[Dookus]

2. Welcome back,

BRO. Glad you made it home safely.

I HOPE you'll find that it's a very small minority of people who slam the troops. I think the vast majority of us here support the troops and want them all to come home safe and sound.

Again, welcome home.

[midnitemoleman]

3. I have never seen someone blame a soldier, Bush yes, but not a soldier!

As a exmilitary person I think you need to spend more time read what the good people of the DU post. It is BUSH that lied! It is Cheney that lied, Hell it's everyone in the administration that lied. But you come and blame us, bull shit! You name one poster who blamed a soldier! Go on, name the poster who blamed a soldier and not Bush/Cheney? Something tells me you wont do it, ummm I wonder why!

And if I mistook what you ment please forgive me, but I was a Combat Eng. in the Army and I understand you do what you are told as a soldier or face the brig. But come one my friend, you cannot say we DUer's blame our great military men and women.

[Booberdawg]

8. I've seen it before n/t

[midnitemoleman]

11. Ok, now suport that with some proof please!

Post the person who did it, we will wait!

[Booberdawg]

20. I've seen it on occasion, I wasn't taking notes

and I didn't have my crystal ball with me at the time.

Take it or leave it, I'm simply suggesting it is not appropriate to get all defensive or your bowels in an uproar and call the man a liar.

[oasis]

37. I have never seen it and I am constantly reading these boards. There

are reports of casualties and many, many DUers express their sympathies and disgust.

DUers have family and friends in this war too.

[Booberdawg]

38. The YOU didn't see it. Others in this thread have. n/t

[oasis]

129. "Why are there so many of you against our troops?" okay? "so many"

The author implies that there is an abundance of such negative posts.

I obviously don't agree with the premise of the question.

[JHB]

40. "Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=119983

Scroll down to post by karlschneider. BRO responded to it, so I'm sure that's one of the ones he's talking about.

And there are a number of others that criticize the poor planning, but could easily be interpreted as criticizing the grunts who have to carry it out, particularly if you already have a "hostile to the troops" impression thanks to some of DU's more absoultist cranks.

[karlschneider]

51. Sigh. I guess some people are sarcastically challenged. Would you get

your undies in a bunch if I had written "Bring 'em on"?
Bah.
You are hereby ignored.

[Forkboy]

58. Sarcasm is considered by some to be downright hostile

or so I was told :)

[JHB]

116. One would hope...

...that someone with some experience in posting to boards (and at 1000+ I think you qualify) would understand that sarcasm often does not translate well to prose, especially in short snippets.

Lacking cues from the tone of your voice or the look on your face, and given the wide and sometimes seemingly unreasonable range of opinions put forth in forums such as these, if you don't drop a hint (an emoticon, a joke "</sarcasm>" tag) you shouldn't be surprised thate someone takes what you say at face value.

[bitchkitty]

124. That's kind of silly -

I read it as sarcasm. I don't see how anyone could have read it differently.

[No Passaran]

19. Ok then...

I didn't say all of you so if you want to put yourself in that group thatn that's your problem. I just went on one of the links that are posted now in Breaking News and found people just calling us "untrained" and/or "trigger happy".
I support all those guys on the ground. I don't like the cause of this was and I wish it had never happened but for all those enlisted I say this: I will support you every time you go on a mission.
I work with 12B by the way.

IndianaGreen (1000+ posts) Thu Sep-18-03 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #5

12. American troops are trigger happy in Iraq
A common complaint, heard several times before, is that every time US troops arrive at the scene of an attack they form a circle around it and open fire in every direction. A fine example of what command and control is not supposed to be!

freeforall (408 posts) Thu Sep-18-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #12

18. They're trigger-happy everywhere...
Look at Afghanistan, and the Canadians they killed. I've said this before, but I don't think the US troops are trained properely - will shoot at anything that moves.

[arcane1]

27. "untrained" and/or "trigger happy", that's ALL?

hell, I've heard commanders saying things like that!!

try again. 2 people stating what appears to be fact, is not the same as saying "so many" of us do not support the troops

you're really digging for a reason to condemn us, huh?

[Brian Sweat]

You're quoting people that worship your avatar.

There is no question that a small number of people here have attacked the troops just for being over there. This is wrong, but it is not the overriding sentiment here on DU. Most of us support the troops, but oppose the action.

[jayfish]

34. I Think The Problem (Other Than Us Being There...

in the first place)is with the Rules Of Engagement.As in, there are none. For example, all of the reports I have seen concerning the killing that took place at the Iraqi wedding today say that when the US soldiers heard shots they started to fire indiscriminately at buildings. What are the rules of engagement over there?

Jay

[oasis]

42. I suggest posters who make scurrilous accusations against DU be

prepared to back it up. Not being able to provide a link is a lame excuse.

[Booberdawg]

45. LOL! Since when?? Long time members spew shit without backing it up!

[Wednesdays]

64. And should be called on it, too!

What's fair is fair.

[oasis]

130. Sometimes they don't have their "crystal balls" handy. post #20

[damnraddem]

67. I don't think that there is any question that U.S. troops were ...

inadequately trained for the long term in Iraq. The Dubya gang gave little thought to what would happen after the 'shooting war.' The troops were not trained in dealing with Iraqi civilians, there are inadequate numbers of translators, there were no special units trained and detailed to guard cultural property. This IS NOT a criticism of the troops -- it's not like soldiers cut class, the class was not offered. This is criticism of the lack of planning by the Administration.

[drewb]

82. I just got out after 13 years in the Military...

and what IG said is right on the mark.

Our troops are poorly trained (to be an occupying police force).

Command and Control - that's tough under good conditions, in a shooting war it's damn near impossible.

Welcome back, don't take things so personally.

As it's been said, most everyone here was trying to keep you and all the other troops from being sent to Iraq in the first place. Re-direct your anger at those that got eight of our troops killed today, not at the people here trying to get ALL of them home.

[absolutezero]

84. ive seen it a few times

i only blame the politicians and some of the high ranking officers (the joint cheifs)

[Demobrat]

4. Against the troops?

I'm amazed that you would get that idea. Most of us marched against the war, more than once, and consider the troops to be innocent pawns of W's. We just want them home safe.

[Booberdawg]

5. I think the majority of DU members are 100% supportive of the troops

not to be mistaken for support of the war. Ugh, there are a few bad apples that blame the troops for what fresh hell is brought upon them.

I don't know what you saw here that you are referring to, but angst against the troops is not the norm. Not at all.

Welcome home!:toast: :party:

[quilp]

6. THERE IS NO DUer "AGAINST THE TROOPS"

In fact, I'm wondering who you really are if you think that. Most here are certainly against Bush and his "policies". All want the troops back home ASAP. Sorry to say the fact that someone died for a cause doesn't make the cause a good one. The fact that someone dies for a bad cause over which he had no control does not detract from his personal nobility. Soldiers don't get to pick their "enemies" or their "causes".

[Sticky]

13. Do you have an example of

a post that slams the troops? I've never seen one, although I've seen posts that were misinterpreted.

I care about the troops in Iraq - I worry all the time - even stay up at night praying this whole debacle gets resolved so everyone can come home safely.

I do not support the war - or bush.....but I certainly support the fighting men and women!

[IrateCitizen]

7. I think you're only seeing a small minority here, BROCockY

The overwhelming majority of DUer's are very supporting of the troops, even if it is in "unconventional" ways like:

- Opposing their use in illegal or immoral conflicts that have nothing to do with our national defense.
- Getting upset when VA benefits are cut.
- Getting even more pissed off when hazard pay is slashed.
- Getting downright irate when the troops are stranded in a quagmire without any clear exit strategy.

Of course, we're not part of the contingent who actively cheers war on and waves a flag as our "support", so it's easy for us to be tarred with the brush of "not supporting".

BTW, welcome back -- glad to see you're safe and sound. Now we just have to get the rest of you guys and gals back.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cappurr]

10. You deserve a reply to this so I'll do the best I can

Most of the folks in the military are trained for specialized MOs. And thats what they do. If you are infantry and you are told to go and wipe out a group resistors you do it. And if a four year little girl and her puppy happen to get creamed...well thats collateral damage.

The soldiers on the ground are not taught the language of the pople they will be in charge of. They know nothing about there customs, religion and frankly, don't much care a lot to know.

Thats why combat soldiers should never be put in a place of keeping the peace or building a democracy. They are not trained for it; they can't do it and they will be under constant attacts from the population to the point that every arab they see, no matter whether male or female, child or not is the enemy. And they treat them like they have been trained to treat the enemy.

It is certainly not the military boots on the ground that deserve the blame here. It is the higher up who allegedly planned this phoney fiasco.

[damnraddem]

70. Hear, hear!

Here's a different example. In WWII, there were military units trained to protect cultural property; they traveled with military units and attempted to protect such property, whether from U.S. troops or from anyone else. In Iraq, there were no such units; and there were apparently no orders to protect museums, libraries, or even government ministries. We all know about the looting that followed. Some would have happened no matter what. The issue is that it should have been anticipated and guarded against. It should be anticipated because: 1. it is always an issue; 2. efforts had been made by the military in former campaigns, including in Kosovo; and 3. specific warnings had been directed to the Pentagon and the White House by those concerned with the rich cultural heritage in Iraq, the 'cradle of civilization.' Where was the training to protect cultural property; where were the orders to do so; where was the leadership insisting on it?

[OldSoldier]

118. Give them some credit: They did protect the Oil Ministry

Comparing Our Great Leader's conduct in Iraq to the Allies' conduct in Europe during WWII is wrong. Compare it to the Japanese Occupation of Korea 1910-1945, in which the Korean people had their entire culture forcibly stripped from them. Their language, their religion, even their foods--all were banned. (Yes, that means kimchi too.)

In Iraq, the first thing The Great Satan (that's Bush, all you lurking freepers) did was let the looters burn down the Koran Museum and loot the National Museum. Why? To destroy the Iraqis' culture, of course.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skwmom]

26. I don't think Bro is a phony poster.

I've noticed several anti military digs on this board. Other people have also commented on it.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

31. Nope. I haven't read any "anti-troop" posts

except for a post here and there about how the soldiers should have tried to go to college rather than enlist, but those posts have been written by military retired who think Bush is a disaster for our military, and even their posts re: the soldiers' choices have been taken to task.

[quilp]

141. Anti Military is not the same as anti troops.

It is quite possible to despise the Pentagon and its revolving door self-serving Generals, and still support the grunt.

[protect freedom impeach bush now]

14. Bush & Cheney ARE the ones against the troops.

Bush & Cheney NEVER SERVED.

Bush went AWOL from his lite-weight Air National Guard duty.
The AWOL SOB couldnt even bother to show up in 1972.

Cheney when asked - "said he had better things to do".


Bush IS the anti-troops one.
Bush FAILED to do all he could to prevent a war, INSTEAD
Bush did ALL he could to START a war.

The PNAC long ago planned this Iraq occupation.
AND it is the soldiers who pay the price for this PNAC
cabal's long plan domination of Iraq.

[trogdor]

56. Bush did ALL he could to START a war.

He even managed to get the inspectors back into the country. Hell, he could have declared victory right then and there, stood down the troops at an appropriate time, and basked in 70%+ approval ratings from then on, but noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! He had to be Billy Bob Badass. He promised us a war, and that's what we were going to get, no matter how much cooperation he got from Saddam Hussein. So, now we have troops getting injured or killed EVERY GODDAM DAY for NO GOOD REASON.* Futhermore, if we wanted to get a similar level of cooperation out of say, North Korea, FORGET IT! Why should they cooperate? We're going to do what we want anyway regardless! The Bushies call this diplomacy; I call it idiocy, and it has nothing to do with how much we do or don't support the troops.

[Sagan]

15. Hey, I didn't want ya'll there in the first place.

And almost all the other folks here felt the same way.

[arcane1]

16. where are you seeing this????

I go to DU every singly day and I have ET to see anyone post anything that "blame(s) the regular soldiers" for anything

link?

:shrug:

[Skittles]

17. you won't see me doing that

and I just mailed yet another care package to Iraq. There are the minority here who cannot understand the military but for the most part I'd say DUers do support the troops.

Welcome back, BRO. :D

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arcane1]

21. who is calling them murderers? who is saying...

they "don't feel anything for the terrible predicament they are in"

:shrug:

sorry, I'm not seeing this. The closest I've seen to this kind of language has been from Ann Coulter saying that wounded soldiers are complaining that their hair is mussed

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arcane1]

29. 4 or 5 people in the past month???

hell, we've had 10 times that many disruports in that amount of time...

but I'll trust you...

[prolesunited]

36. Trust YOU!

We don't even know who you are! I don't think so. We have people who have been here for a LONG time and post every day saying that's not true, and I'm going to take your word? NOT!

While people we waving flags and calling us traitors, we were out there marching in the streets to prevent these senseless deaths from happening. So you can save your condemnation for those who deserve it because it is NOT us!

Edited for clarity

[Booberdawg]

39. Ruh roh! IsraeliDemocrat has been tombstoned???

[prolesunited]

43. All hail the new mods!

:toast:

[oasis]

47. When will the "intruders" ever learn? Moles return to your holes.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

66. Yeah. He had the f'ing nerve to say Grasso deserved the 140 million

what a f'ing retarded GOP POS. Happy tombstone!

[damnraddem]

71. I wonder how many of us don't see anti-troop comments because ...

they're deleted from the board. If that is what happens, do note that they ARE deleted from the board, and the posters sometimes ejected.

Is that the case here?

[Eloriel]

96. No, they're not typically deleted from the board

I myself have seen at least 2 threads, probably more, that were definitely anti-military and anti-troop, tho not recently. I've seen posts from a few DUers that were definitely anti-troops.

BUT, these represent a VERY small number of people -- 3 or 4, maybe 5 in all, out of thousands of regular posters.

As othes have said, the vast majority of DUers are very supportive of our troops, and the vast majority were also very much against this war.

Eloriel

[Isome]

23. Where were they called murderers?

link?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

35. You gotta take his word

[Flying_Pig]

41. Oh, just like we're supposed to take the word of his sig pic......

Lying Joe Lieberman??? NOT!!

[No Passaran]

28. exactly

I don't support the war, but I have to support those on the ground. They don't wanna be there. Now think about this, you have a national guard soldier who just finished high-school and joined national guard for some extra money. Right after basic training his unit is sent to Iraq. One month later, that poor boy is dead. I know hundreds of stories like this. If they accidentaly shoot at somebody, let's stop blaming them and start blaming those that sent them over there. Environment like Iraq will make you do a lot of crazy things that you can't really think through in 5 seconds that it takes for you to either respond or run.

[cally]

50. BROCockY..I'm glad you brought this up

because it is obviously something you have perceived. If folks, like me, are appearing to anti the soldier, then I know I need to be more careful in the words I use. I've only noticed it on a few occasions, but I understand that I will perceive things differently from you.

I am not against the soldier. I hate this war and I adamntly oppose it. I don't blame the soldier but I loathe the misleaders who created this quagmire. I want the troops and the civilians to be safe and for Iraq to have peace and stability.

Peace and I'm glad you are safe.

[mac56]

72. I agree with cally

I know I need to be careful with the words I choose, and I suspect many of the rest of DU'ers could do so also. That said, I think the vast majority of us DU'ers have the highest respect and appreciation for the soldiers.

Welcome back, by the way, from Athens, GA.

[diamondsoul]

147. Welcome home, BROCockY.

I'm not sure some people stop to consider how much their words can wound someone who has just come back from a combat situation. Especially one like this one. We're all angry about it, that it has happened at all, that our people are dying, and that innocent Iraqi people are dying.

Some of the stories make people angry and they talk about it, the ones when a soldier fires at innocents. It's hard for some people to imagine having to make life or death decisions like that, and what it's like to make those decisions when you're scared half to death with no idea which of these people wants you dead.

I don't think it's usually a matter of being "against the troops" as much as it's being angry over senseless deaths and not able to stop them from happening. Try not to take it personally. It's not meant to be, even though I'm sure it seems that way sometimes.

This is a bad situation for so many people, most just kids who ought never to have to see things like this happen, much less take part in them. We all want you and your colleagues back home safe and sound, and we want the killing to be stopped. Sometimes the frustration and anger isn't expressed in the most perfect of ways.

[gratuitous]

22. Why are you blaming the people that tried to stop them from sending you?

Welcome back, brococky. I'm glad you didn't get your ass shot off.

The fact of the matter is that there were quite a number of us here at DU, and millions more around the world who were dead set against you having to put your life on the line in Iraq in the first place. We knew the administration was lying about its rationale, and the urgency of the situation that they claimed was threatening the U.S. and the world. We marched in the streets, we wrote letters to the editor, we went to induction centers and tried to stop people from signing up, we went to missile silos to demonstrate against them, we called our Senators and Representatives, we withheld our taxes, we went to Iraq to stand unarmed with the civilians there we knew were going to be slaughtered.

For our trouble, we were called traitors. We were kicked around (figuratively) in the media and (literally) in the streets. We had our patriotism questioned. We were threatened, and when threats didn't work, assaulted. We were called cowards. Our patriotism was questioned in none-too-polite terms. Our opinions were mocked, caricatured, misrepresented, set up as straw men, and knocked down. We were told that we were some kind of starry-eyed idealists, and that we didn't have a clue about how "the real world" worked. We were ridiculed for a naïveté would get more people killed. Our country was alleged to be in grave danger, and other options would take too long and people wouldn't stand for it, because they needed immediate retribution. Concerns about the human rights of folks in Iraq were pooh-poohed as so much liberal, bleeding-heart mush.

Here we are six months later. We are no closer to bringing in Saddam Hussein today than we were in March. We have killed thousands of civilians. We have lost hundreds of good men and women in the armed forces due to battle and mechanical failures of their high-priced, high-tech transportation. We have wrongfully detained prisoners, with allegations of maltreatment that could be considered torture, and eyewitness accounts of attacks on civilians that can only be called (let us be neither starry-eyed nor idealistic) murder. We, the American public, are assured, however, that these and similar allegations are either unfounded, or if credible, will be severely looked into. Nothing of the sort has happened.

If that looks anti-troop to you, then I apologize. Our aim was to stop a bloodthirsty administration, bent on needless mayhem and destruction. However, insofar as your aims coincide with those of the administration in killing Iraq, then I guess we have to plead guilty to being "against our troops." The troops aren't performing any service I asked them to do.

[quinnox]

30. Don't let it get you down

There are always a few um, mentally or emotionally challenged people who will complain against anything, it doesn't matter if it is Disneyland or the Wizard of Oz. Know that the overwhelming majority of Americans are proud of and respect the troops, as they should. Welcome home!

[HootieMcBoob]

32. Just curious...

What part of Iraq were you in? What unit were you with? Where did you ship out from? What's your MO?

Welcome to DU the people here support the troops with their actions. There are also many of us here who served at one time or another. Remember, bullshit walks right?

[No Passaran]

48. to answer your questions...

I was with 2nd BTC, 3rd ID from Ft Stewart, GA. I drove into Baghdad on April 8th (Baghdad completely fell into our hands within 48hrsO. I was then sent to Fallujah (hoping I was gonna go home after they promised that they will if Baghdad falls).

To those of you that protested this war I have on thing to say: Thank you. Back in January and February of 2003 while still in Kuwait, we used to watch everything that was happening back home. We were hoping you would be able to bring us back home. At least 80% of us stationed in Kuwait at that time were greatefull for what you were doing. You guys came very close to brining us home nad I fully appreciate this. Now let's support those that are still there who hope that you will bring them home.

[alphafemale]

65. Welcome Home, BROCocky.

I'm from the Savannah area.

I remember protesting near Ft. Stewart and getting nothing but cheers and thumbs-up from the large majority of soldiers who would pass.

I'm glad you made it home safe. I'm sorry so many from the 3rd ID didn't. :(

And btw, welcome to DU. :hi:

[Ilsa]

69. Thanks.

"To those of you that protested this war I have on thing to say: Thank you. Back in January and February of 2003 while still in Kuwait, we used to watch everything that was happening back home. We were hoping you would be able to bring us back home. At least 80% of us stationed in Kuwait at that time were greatefull for what you were doing. "

Thanks for telling us that. The reich-wing media was telling us that all the troops overseas were pissed at us for trying to bring you home. They, and recently Rumsferatu (credit to the caller on Malloy) told us we were aiding the enemy by dissenting. They did everything they could to try and shut us up, accusing us of treason and "forgetting 9-11". The assholes in control of the media and the war were pitting us against one another. Trolls have been on this board before doing the same.

BTW, my bro was in PGW I; sister in Army reserves for ten years, father-in-law took three tours to Vietnam in Special Forces, Bro-in-law is ex-Navy, father WWII Navy vet. I have never Not appreciated the military.

[damnraddem]

74. Welcome back; and the sooner the better for bringing the rest home.

Yes, Dubya made a mess that the U.S. has responsibility for cleaning up; but keeping the troops in Iraq is NOT cleaning that mess up. It's time to hand the job over to the UN and others -- what they can do, we're not sure.

[Career Prole]

77. The bastards lied about that too.

BROCocky said:
To those of you that protested this war I have on thing to say: Thank you. Back in January and February of 2003 while still in Kuwait, we used to watch everything that was happening back home. We were hoping you would be able to bring us back home. At least 80% of us stationed in Kuwait at that time were greatefull for what you were doing. You guys came very close to brining us home nad I fully appreciate this.

The sons o' bitches told us we were demoralizing you. Thanks for mentioning that...and welcome home. :toast:

[Jack Rabbit]

105. You're welcome, BROCockY

From a verteran of the US Army who marched against the war last winter and who plans to march against the occupation in the coming months.

No war should be held against the grunts, but only against those who decide it should be fought. I appreciate those who, like you, elect to defend this country. I condemn those in power who, like Mr. Bush, misuse our troops.

Better use can be made of brave people like you than fighting in colonial misadventures for the benefit of some crooked politicians' cronies. You could have been used to really pursue Osama and his cutthroats rather than create business opportunities for Mr. Cheney and his thugs. That is the real shame of the presnet situation. It is made worse by the fact that those in power have shown by the example their lives that tghey believe that war is to be fought by underlings. They say they are using you to defend democracy, but they show by their actions that they do not understand what democracy is.

Thank you for your service. Welcome home. I'm glad you're safe.

[frank frankly]

107. glad to hear that

I am glad you are back! We will bring them home.

[JHB]

44. It's not "so many"...

...but as with so many things, it's the obnoxious cranks off on a crusade in their own little world who get peoples' attention.

Welcome back, to you and (hopefully) the rest of your unit.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Postman]

46. Not against troops, what are you reading?....

Against criminal Bush. I marched against the war before it started. I didn't want to send you there to start with. The anti-war people are not "against" troops, we are against using you guys for unjust reasons.

[TacticalPeek]

49. "a lot of posts"

I think this is a big overstatement. There is actually very little of this, mainly from the same few, agile typists, plus the occassional, unthinking characterization.

If you look around DU, you will see that there are many vets here, all troop-supportive. I am, my father was, back to my great-grandfather. My son is an active duty special operator with the Navy/Marines. I absolutely support and am sympathetic with the grunts.

However, you must admit that we have a serious fire discipline problem going on, in the course of a mission that is absurd and unachievable. That is a criticism of training and leadership, not knocking the troops.

And while it is true that one must follow orders, at the point that children and innocent civilians are routinely wasted, perhaps duty and honor point more toward the brig or stockade than the patrol or ambush. Especially for those who believe they have an immortal soul at stake. If the job cannot be done with honor, it should not be done.

Support? You've got it from me. Unquestioning approval of insane destruction? Not what my country is about.

[RapidCreek]

100. Nicely said

And while it is true that one must follow orders, at the point that children and innocent civilians are routinely wasted, perhaps duty and honor point more toward the brig or stockade than the patrol or ambush. Especially for those who believe they have an immortal soul at stake. If the job cannot be done with honor, it should not be done.

RC

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackSwift]

53. The only Vietnam vets "treated badly"

were the ones protesting. War protestors did not "spit on" returning vets. The only vets spit on were spit were themselves protesting the war and spit on by Republican turds for protesting. Democrats are well aware that foot soldiers do not make the policies, and we have been aware of that since long before you were born.

[Q]

54. "...you go and blame regular soldiers."

- I've been at this board since (almost) the beginning...and I don't remember seeing a thread that "blamed" soldiers. Never. In fact it's been quite the opposite around here. The troops have always had the support of DU. It's the so-called, shit-for-brains "Commander in Chief" who has always been the target of our ire and disgust.

- The Bushies lied to rush this nation into a war they had planned before they took office. Blame them if you're intent on finding the guilty parties. Most ( by my count) on this board are against the war and the false pretenses that put Americans in harm's way for NOTHING but the enrichment of the Bush* Banana Republic.

[DrWeird]

55. Why should I support US troops...

and not, say, the iraqis who are fighting off hostile foreign invaders.

[Catherine Vincent]

57. I Support the troops but I don't support your sorry-assed President!!!!!!!

[lebkuchen]

59. You're military? Can you tell me,

when that help Bush promised is going to be on the way?

[IndianaGreen]

60. Did you hear Bush say that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

Or has that registered yet in your head?

BTW, thank you for finding all of those WMDs...

[calimary]

61. My greatest respects to you for having done the heavy lifting.BUT

your concerns are not terribly well-founded. Yes, there are some here who are just mad as hell. But believe me, as one who stood out there on the sidewalks more than once in front of the Federal Building in Westwood, and at "Peace at the Beach" with thousands of others, getting laughed at, flipped off, called names, and insulted - told to get a job, get a life, get out of this country because I was unpatriotic, I never once advocating not supporting our troops.

A conservative friend of mine, on the day we all knew the war was breaking out, pleaded with me to fly the flag outside my house to support the troops. I told her what WE ALL were saying, every day, on the protest lines and in letters to the editor and in phone calls, emails, and letters to our representatives and ANYBODY else we thought might help, THE WAY TO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS IS BY NOT SENDING THEM OVER TO THAT STUPID, USELESS, WORTHLESS, RECKLESS LIE-JUSTIFIED AND LIE-INSPIRED WAR, IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!

I STILL believe, while consulting the website Military Families Speak Out, that it's still what we should do. We should BRING THEM HOME! They're being used and exploited just as every American's heartbreak and fear over 9/11 has been shamelessly used and exploited. We don't hate you or any of your fellows still marooned over there in hell-on-earth. We hate them what sent you.

Not a day goes by that I don't think about the mother of Branden Oberleitner. Don't know anything about her. And the only reason I know she exists is because Headline News shows her in a piece about the funeral for her son, one of many thoughtfully packaged and shipped back home in a body bag. I will never forget seeing how she doubled over in anguish after the folded flag that covered her son's coffin had been handed to her. I will never forget how red and swolen her profile was, her nose, lips, chin, cheeks, sinuses, too, undoubtedly, from so much crying. I am about to start crying even at this moment while I write this, because I, too, am a mom. I hate the bushies with every molecule in my body for rendering her thus. For doing that to her. For breaking her heart irreparably for no other reason than their own greed and megalomania. For depriving her, forever more, of her precious, beloved baby boy. Especially considering the war was fought on completely false pretenses and he died for NOTHING. I will never forget this. I hope I live to see them burn in hell.

We fought, railed, and raised our fists trying to get SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, to listen and to keep you and your fellow soldiers OUT OF THERE! Nobody listened. Everybody was too drunk on jingoism and using the American flag as a nice, colorful gag to silence us and laugh at us and demonize us and shove us off to the side and dismiss us as a bunch of jokes, ex-hippies, commies, appeasers, and Saddam-lovers. We fought like hell to head this off. It didn't work. Nobody paid any attention. That's probably why there's so much raw anger and outrage here, to this day, and why so many of us are just flailing at anything by now.

By the way, BROCockY (and welcome to DU, while I think of it. Sincerely!), we were ALSO the ones who yelled and screamed and protested in outrage as STUPID ASSHOLE george moved BEHIND YOUR BACKS to cut your VA benefits, cut your combat pay, cut your family separation differential, while sending one out of every three of you out there with defective haz-mat suits, and not enough materiel support. WE WERE THE ONES SHOUTING AND WAVING OUR FISTS AND BLOWING WHISTLES ABOUT THIS AND MARCHING IN THE STREETS AND EMAILING ABOUT THIS LIKE A BUNCH OF CRAZIES! I'm sorry to report that nobody listened to us then, either. I can't tell you, personally, HOW MANY jaws dropped when I'd have conversations about this in the supermarket or at the haircutters' or the karate school, or WHEREVER I was, that I might by chance encounter someone I could either commiserate with or try to enlighten out of their pathetic "God Bless America" stupors. I can't tell you how many. I was stunned by the obvious lack of informed people around me. I swear to you jaws dropped and stayed that way.

As a mother, and as a loyal, democracy-loving American, a progressive, a VERY proud and resolute liberal, and a believer in the creed that one person can make a difference, I have thought the very same thoughts you articulated, on a daily basis. And it has fed my outrage. Every Memorial Day weekend when I'd take my Cub Scout out to the VA cemetery, where about 3,000 Cub Scouts and Tiger Cubs and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and Daisies and Brownies were there to put flags on every grave, I'd tell both my kids (my daughter, too, along with her little brother) that EACH ONE of those headstones and grave markers represented somebody who had a mom, a dad, a wife or sweetheart, children, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews. And that every one of those probably cried over this tombstone and, of those still living, their heart aches a little every time they think of it. It's something I never want my children to forget.

War is hell. And the pansy-asses running our government and our country (so thoughtfully right into the ground), almost 100 percent worth, never wore their country's uniform, never saw combat, never shed blood, never got their hands dirty, never sat shivering in a foxhole, never had to eat an MRE, never had to satisfy themselves with one wistful look at a photograph from home before they hoisted their field packs and their guns and headed out. Not one. They're all, with a very few exception, vile, reprehensible, cowardly, arrogant, CHICKENHAWKS. Especially the FIRST CHICKENHAWK, who was the worst of all. Maybe he had his dad pull strings so he could cut in front of the line for the pantiwaist Texas Air National Guard, where he refused to take a flight physical to earn the right to wear that Top Gun suit he shamelessly paraded around in, last May, and then skipped out on the Guard entirely for more than a year. In my opinion his rank is Lowest of the Low. And we've fought him, here, with every ounce of our energy.

In one sense, it is war here, too. Because it's also dirty and, at least, verbally bloody. But don't you think for one nano-second that people here think YOU and the other soldiers are the ones to blame. I'm sorry if you're getting that impression. THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE ABOUT. We hate the war you were in. That doesn't mean we hate you. We hate that you had to go fight it.

And probably most of all, we hate that we weren't able to stop it, and save more of your friends and comrades. We hate that nobody listened. Until now, when a few of 'em are starting to wake up, finally. And now, it's pretty much too late.

[Karenina]

81. Thank you for your words, Calimary!

You said it all. Yes, there have been posts when Ami soldiers have been involved in egregious incidents of brutality against Iraqis that have expressed emotional outrage. One can no more blame the posters than the soldiers involved who will return to the U.S. physically and emotionally
damaged only to face an enviroment where their rehabilition is a LOW priority.

Everyone seems to be dancing around a "core issue" here. The "volunteer" military is comprised of a varied demographic. Most are economically deprived, looking to the MYTH of America to serve their country honorably and better their lives. Some are GUNG-HO jingoists who got woodies thinking they could off some sand-niggers. When their activities return to bite us all in the butt, NO clear-thinker can say "I SUPPORT what they do." "The chick got in the way." She's dead.

Americans must come to terms with the mentality of those who are being USED by an Überclass to achieve their own ends. Those ends do not include a whit of concern for those they use to achieve them. Upon their return they may come to realize how they were used and how every human being bleeds red.

[calimary]

152. Kiss!

[TacticalPeek]

87. Roger that, calimary. Thanks.

[calimary]

153. Kiss.

[Uzybone]

89. Wow

that was powerful stuff. Excellent post....got me pretty emotional. BRO, this post IMO best exemplifies the sentiments here. Glad you are back.

[calimary]

154. Kiss.

[Dob Bole]

62. Nothing but respect here...

I'm from a really small Southern town with no jobs. So just about everybody I graduated with is in the military. (Except me, because I got a full scholarship to go to college. Otherwise, I would have been at the mercy of that really butch Marine recruiter chick.)

People at DU are criticizing policy decisions by the Bush administration. Nothing more, nothing less. Troops don't make policy decisions. They make tactical decisions, survival decisions, etc, and do their jobs well. If anyone protests at the return of the troops, I hope they accidentally cross the police line and spend quality time in jail with Bubba.

That's my take on it, harsh as it might sound.

Dob Bole

[damnraddem]

63. I haven't seen blame of the soldiers on here.

I've seen many messages about supporting the troops: they should not have been sent into harm's way, Rummy's war plans put them into too much jeopardy, inadequate planning is killing too many, don't cut combat pay, oppose cuts in veterans' benefits, bring the troops home now, stop the no-bid privatization of support functions that has led to the troops' lacking what they need, and so on. In general, the antiwar movement has in this invasion been very careful to not blame the troops, rather blaming the gang of thugs who ordered the invasion -- and that care is generally reflected on DU as well. In my local peace group, many members have sons or other family members in Iraq, and this is a constantly-noted concern; and I have seen like comments on DU boards.

[maha]

68. Go ask the Freepers

I've never personally seen any messages on DU that were not supportive of the troops, although there may be a few.

I suggest you ask the people writing these messages, not DUers in general. Or the freepers.

[bluestateguy]

73. I can only speak for myself...

I always make it a point to remind folks of the failure of this Administration's policy whenever something like that happens with an "I told you so" message. For that I will not apologize. However, I will not criticize the enlisted soldiers who are over there, only the politicians who sent them there.

[corarose]

76. Jr and our Troops are two different entities

We are not against our Troops we are against Jr's OIL War. Can you differentiate between the two?

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calimary]

79. How 'bout we send OLD Bar over there?

"Beautiful" mind and all. I'll trade you one Barbara-the-Bitch for a division or two.

[Isome]

80. No one else has come in to support the allegation....

except for the now tombstoned Israellidemocrat. Or, am I missing a post? If I'm not, then the questionable allegation deserves no further comment.

I'm wondering how the referenced thread, and the responses to it, could be reasonably misconstrued as anti-soldier.

[bigtree]

83. Its raining outside (inside, too)

God bless our soldiers.

[redwitch]

85. Watched the News hour on PBS last night.

they show the photos of the day's dead American servicemen. They look so young. As the mother of 2 young sons I can assure you that I am not anti our troops. I think it is a crime to waste their young lives in this bush mistake. I cried last night when I saw their faces.

[Imalittleteapot]

92. I shared tears with you last night watching News Hour.

:cry:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. During the first offensive in Iraq

I read about a couple in a suburb of Portland whose 19-year-old son had been killed in action. They were working class, and their son, whom everyone remembered as "a great kid," had enlisted in order to earn money to go to college. He was their only child.

The newspaper photo of the parents walking out of the church behind their son's coffin was one of the most heartbreaking things I've seen in years. They were so griefstricken that it looked as if they could stand up only by clinging to each other.

George W. Bush and his crew of oil-soaked greedheads have a lot to answer for.

[RapidCreek]

86. Just curious....

Being a vet myself....Did you feel you were doing the right thing by going there? Were you proud of what you and your unit did, while you were deployed? Do you equate support of troops with fighting like hell to keep them from being implemented as publicly funded, privately directed, mercenaries? Do you feel support of the troops includes working for their immediate return from Iraq? Do you feel that cutting veterans benefits is supportive of the troops?

If the shoe were on the other foot and you were a run of the mill average Iraqi citizen and your house was blown up and your family killed, would you look upon the American troops who did it as poor kids who were just following orders? Would you think of them warmly in spite of the fact that they invaded your country and destroyed those in the pictures you are inclined to kiss?

At what point would you feel it more important to kiss a photo of your loved ones....and refuse to serve in such an occupation or declare yourself a conscientious objector....then pay the consequences? Would that be dishonorable or cowardly? Would it take more or less stones to go that route? Would the overall odds of you and a few Iraqis staying alive be increased or decreased if you did so?

Will you return if you are redeployed?

Please understand that I am not casting any aspersions here....just interested in what you have to say. Frankly I have always been a little confused as to what exactly the phrase "support the troops" means. As one who uses it...perhaps you can give me your definition.

By the way....I am happy you made it home alive.....what has your time in Iraq taught you? Do you believe the world is a safer place as a result of your service in the mid-east?

RC
USN Vet

[Karenina]

88. "what has your time in Iraq taught you?"

n/t

[RapidCreek]

95. Seems like a pretty clearly asked question to me.

Or did I not understand your post Kernina? Perhaps you could embelish on your post if I did not.

RC

[Karenina]

97. Sorry if I was not clear here RapidCreek

I simply meant to reiterate the question you posed as I feel it is the MOST IMPORTANT ONE! :hi:

[RapidCreek]

99. Hehehe ok...yea me too!

:)

RC

[BonjourUSA]

90. Even in FFrance we don't confuse between……

……the instrument of a policy and the policy itself.

What do we can notice when we watch US soldiers in TV reports? Young men, very young men lost among an inamical population, and who should never be there. That's all

[Imalittleteapot]

91. You are absolutely wrong BROCocky. Shame on you.

Some of our fellow citizens have been brainwashed into thinking that the folks here are against the troops by the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity, and other Whitehouse mouthpieces. I've met more patriotic Americans right here on this board than I've encountered in a lifetime, and all of them have a genuine compassion (not the conservative kind) for our men and women in the military.

Being against the war and the Whitehouse warrior does not translate to being against the troops. Many here are sending care packages to soldiers they have never met. All of us share a deep concern for our men and women in Iraq…their living conditions, their stress, their families, their fate. All of us agree that troops should have never been sent into harms way in the first place.

So, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

BTW, I personally have a dear nephew in Iraq who gets, from this address, cards, letters and monthly boxes full of goodies and requested necessities like personal hygiene products, phone cards, sunscreen, insecticide and GatorAde of all things. I'm wondering why he can't get these simple things from OUR government.

[No Passaran]

102. shame on me? whatever

1. I'm not gonna defend my views or the way I feel. I understand we all have our differences. Yes, I am a Liberal Democrat and Yes I am against this war that happened, but I guess it's become pretty fashionable around here to call those young boys "murderers" and "trigger happy". I've been a member of DU probably longer than you have (my number of posts reflects how many times I've been deployed to Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan). Those who have read everything that I've wrote here and didn't mistake some of the points I was trying to make, thank you. Those of you that got offended by this probably deserve it since you felt like I was talking to you.

2. Some does not mean all.

3. I have a right to post whatever I feel is right. I make donations to this site each month (even when I was deployed for 11 months and couldn't even get to a computer).

4. Split right here is evident. we have those who jump on a bandvagon and those who think for themselves. You go on and figure out which one you are.

edit notes: added #4

[Merlin]

106. As a fellow combat vet, I don't understand your criticism.

I have been one of those who has been most critical of the civilian deaths caused by our occupation forces. Are you suggesting that means I don't support our troops? Come On!

I'm a devoted Philadelphia Eagles fan. They've lost 2 in a row. I'm very critical of their sloppiness and lack of discipline. Does that mean I don't support the Eagles?

I'm an American. I'm very, very, very critical of George Bush and his entire fasicst government. Does that mean I don't support America?

Look, there is absolutely no question whatsoever that there is some extremely sloppy discipline in this man's Army these days, and it is showing up horribly in Iraq. There is absolutely, unequivocally no excuse for the constant stream of murders and mistakes and episodes of thuggery and jack-boot storm trooper tactics some of our troops have engaged in in Iraq. There is no fucking excuse whatsoever. It was wrong in Vietnam. It's wrong in Iraq. And it's always, always, always counterproductive. Every time we kill one of theirs by mistake or in error or in compulsive, angry retribution, they kill 2 or 3 more of ours because their fury demands it. We would do the same in their shoes.

The US military is absolutely wrong in not doing more to discipline the commanders of units in which such incompetence and wholesale disregard for human life has produced such a continual string of horror stories.

I hate this war. But I support our troops. I hate it when they act like nazis. But I appreciate their sacrifices.

Do you have a problem with that?

[OldSoldier]

121. Sloppy discipline

Merlin hit the nail on the head with his "sloppy discipline" comment.

Actually, he was a bit mild: there is no discipline in the Army today. Patton is rolling over in his grave.

I live outside Fort Bragg. I see paratroopers all the time. These guys are supposed to be the most wonderful, most highly disciplined, soldiers in the Army today. In some things that's true--they all have nice bald heads, they all run ten miles on their own every Saturday and six miles on their own every Sunday, their berets are all nice and neat. And you look at them and think, "these are some squared-away troops."

Then you look deeper, and you realize that this "discipline" is just a veneer. I go out to eat some Fridays, and the place is full of soldiers. All dressed in BDUs after 1800. All drinking beer. Ten years ago, you never saw this. Not because we weren't proud of our uniforms--we were--but because we knew that at 1630 or whenever the duty day ended, we were to go to our quarters and take off our duty uniforms because we were no longer on duty. Also, every post I was ever stationed on had a policy governing wear of duty uniform off-post, and they're fairly uniform (no pun intended)--get your ass home and change. You could make short, necessary stops--the policies usually read "bread, milk and gasoline"--but no huge long shopping trips. Now? There are undoubtedly guys on Fort Bragg who don't own civilian clothes. I see soldiers in Home Depot on weekends dressed in BDUs. Ask 'em who they pissed off to have to work on the weekend and they look at you funny: "I'm not on duty. We have the weekend off." Then why the hell are you in uniform, goat breath?

We also didn't get gang tattoos, or at least we didn't get enough gang tattoos that the Army felt it necessary to assign a dermatologist to tattoo removal on a full-time basis. Fort Bragg's hospital has a major on staff that does nothing but remove tattoos. When he's not removing gang tattoos, he's removing the very fashionable ankle tattoo from female soldiers. Yeah, they're popular, but it's written right in Army Regulation 670-1 (the dress code) in the first chapter, right after the haircut policy: no tattoos visible in Class A uniform. Guess what: the Army Classic Uniform basic issue contains two knee-length skirts. And these soldiers are getting huge leg tattoos, then wondering why they've got appointments with the doctor to have them removed.

I know: Clinton got a blowjob so now military discipline is out the window. I'm sorry, but that won't fly: Bill Clinton has been out of office since January 2001; their hero Chickenhawk George is returning pride and dignity to the military so why did the 4077th MASH have more military discipline than the 82nd Airborne?

[TacticalPeek]

127. A-fn-men!

Somebody (Wes?) hurry up and fix the Army, before Rumdum drives them all to the unemployment line.

[Isome]

108. But you didn't say "some" BroCocky

The words you used were "so many" and "a lot of posts". Both of those phrases mean a greater quantity than "some". It may sound too petty for consideration, however it makes all the difference in how your message is received.

[Oilwellian]

126. So, even after over 101 posts above this one....

from DU'ers giving tons of support to our troops, but not this administration, you have the NERVE to CONTINUE saying the following:

but I guess it's become pretty fashionable around here to call those young boys "murderers" and "trigger happy". I've been a member of DU probably longer than you have (my number of posts reflects how many times I've been deployed to Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan).

First of all, I guess you didn't read the 101 posts ahead of your last one, speaking of heartfelt concerns and desires to protect our troops from the sleazy politicians and war profiteers who sent them to Iraq in the first place. I question your true intentions in creating this thread when you OBVIOUSLY haven't even read the responses.

Secondly, this site didn't exist when our troops were deployed to Kuwait, so I question even your basic knowledge of DU. Then you said:

I make donations to this site each month (even when I was deployed for 11 months and couldn't even get to a computer).

Where were you deployed for 11 months? This war in Iraq is only 6 months old. How did you donate to this site for every month while overseas? Did you send a check from Kuwait, Iraq or Afghanistan? Inquiring minds want to know.

[No Passaran]

128. for Oaf Of Office

"Secondly, this site didn't exist when our troops were deployed to Kuwait, so I question even your basic knowledge of DU."

This site didn't exist when I deployed to Kuwait in September of 2002? I think theser regular members will tell you that it did!

"Where were you deployed for 11 months? This war in Iraq is only 6 months old."

I was deployed to Kuwait for a regular six-months rotation for training purposes (something called Desert Spring).

"How did you donate to this site for every month while overseas? Did you send a check from Kuwait, Iraq or Afghanistan? Inquiring minds want to know.""

There is something called Credit Card. Look it up.

Now I feel dumb answering these kinds of questions.

[leetrisck]

93. Bologna! Do you listen to FAUX news

propoganda? Just because I do not support the idiot in the yellow house certainly doesn't mean I don't support the troops and no one is happy when one of our troops is killed or injured.

[gully]

94. BroCocky... I'm sorry for what you have perceived to be a lack of support

here at DU. I am sure you are reading things in a very sensitive light.

I for one say...Thank you for your service to our Country. I too protested the war, and tried like hell to keep you home.

I'm sorry for what you've encountered abroad, and am glad your safe at home.

~Peace

[frank frankly]

98. welcome back!

[Dr Fate]

101. yes- support our troops!

Opposing Bush's disasterous foriegn and domestic policies does not mean being down on the working men and women of the armed forces...

they are only doing their job...

I support them and hope they get home safe ASAP...

[jiacinto]

104. I agree with you fully

There are just some DUers who hate the military and are just simply anti-troop. They sicken me.

[rman]

109. what do you think of Bush being against the troops?

with him cutting Vet benefits, and sending you over there based on lies?

Are you now also one of the many soldiers who have come to the conclusion that "war is a racket"?
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Glad you came out alive, btw.

[Guaranteed]

110. I hope you're not voting for Bush.

Assuming you're not, since you ARE on DU. But where's your anger at him?

[No Passaran]

111. this is not a thread about Bush

If you read all my posts you would know where I stand and how I feel about Bush.

[imax2268]

112. I was in the first Gulf War...

I wouldn't even think of saying anything derogitory to our men and women in uniform...they need us to support them right now...the little boys in the white house sure as hell are not...!

[Spentastic]

113. Can I ask you.

Why did you join the forces?

What did you believe that the U.S armed forces were for?

Did you ever consider what subjugating your will to the military might actually mean.

Were you willing to defy a lawful order to save your own integrity?

These people that don't want to be there just happen to be pulling the triggers that fire the bullets at Iraqis that no doubt don't wish to be dead.

[No Passaran]

114. An honest answer

1. I joined because I'm a 4th gen. soldier (no civilian soldiers in my family, we were all career soldiers). So I gave it a shot:)

2. I joined when my president Bill Clinton was still in the house. I joined because of Bosnia and mainly peacekeeping missions that I thought I was gonna do.

3. Yeah. Don't forget, I basically grew up in this uniform.

4. If by that you mean: "Shoot at that crowd of unarmed civilians" then yes. I had my ass in trouble a dozen times because of my opinions. When I was in Iraq, I didn't shoot any civilians. I encountered Iraqi soldiers and Saddam-Feyadeen (I hope I spelled that out correctly).

5. They're scared more than Iraqis. You put a kid out there who just graduated from HS and Basic, he's gonna be scared. You have 5 sec. max to make your decision so they're making them. How does a kid from Wisconsin know that when they Iraqis use small-arms fire during their weddings?

[Spentastic]

115. Thank you for your answers

I'm British and there appears to be a somewhat different argument about whether "supporting our troops" or not defines you as a patriot.

I find this an intensley difficult subject to address. I considered joining the military at one point, but could not convince myself that I'd trust authority not to put me in a secanrio I found abhorrent. So I didn't.

Furthermore I'm not a great fan of granting automatic respect to a group on the basis that I'm told that the military is without question a worthy institution.

Finally "How does a kid from Wisconsin know that when they Iraqis use small-arms fire during their weddings?". Quite obviously the kid in question did not. However, due to that lack of understanding a 14 yr old is dead and emnity has been increased. I believe that the reason for young kids to see the military as a "way out" needs to be eliminated. If even a portion of the trillion dollars the war machine requires was rediverted the U.S may have that luxury.

[OldSoldier]

122. How does a kid from Wisconsin know...

This has always been one of the biggest problems with US Army training: they don't tell you shit like this.

"Iraqis like to shoot their guns in celebration. If you see a whole bunch of men with big ol' shit eating grins on their faces firing straight up in the air, they're not trying to kill you, they're celebrating."

The kid from Wisconsin who just graduated from basic training isn't supposed to make value judgments like this--are they happy because their daughter just married the man of our dreams (he's a nice man who makes a good living, and he's never been in Fedayeen Saddam) or are they happy because a whole squad of American soldiers just came around the bend and they get to avenge the death of their friend Abdul Aziz? Your sergeant is, and unfortunately after seeing paratroopers for nine years, I've got a strong suspicion that the average 82nd Airborne sergeant can't make a value judgment about using both sides of a sheet of toilet paper without getting it wrong.

[Fish Eye]

117. I support both sides

I feel that the average US soldier is doing what they think to be the right thing. There must be a conflict in many soldiers minds when they dissagree with their mission. I feel sorry for any who have this conflict and I do not fully hold them accountable for their actions. This is war.

On the other hand, I fully support the Iraqi's who deffend their homeland as I would hope that we would deffend ourselves if we were attacked and occupied.

The killing sucks but it is what we have thanks to the greed of a few. In the end the United States will lose and for nothing but profit for a few and misery for many.

[BiggJawn]

119. "Treat you better whe you get home"??? I smell a TROLL...

Where did you get that idea? From the non-stop 24/7 RW hate radio AFRTS pumps at you guys over there (if you truly were a soldier and if you truly were deployed over there)

Yeah, there's some malcontents around here who seem to delight in throwing the "Baby Killer Card", but they're in the minority and probably Rovian plants anyway.

I LOVE our troops! I love 'em enough to want to see the bastards that are using them for a private merc "Oil Army" put away for a long time. I want them HOME.

[HawkerHurricane]

120. Welcome back, BROCocky

from a squid who was 'over there'.

And yes, I have seen some 'anti-troops' posts. Not many, and not 'blaming' them so much as saying 'it's their own damn fault for enlisting'.

BTW, I re-upped last in Feb 00...and I could have sworn that was safe, since Gore was going to win. Not that anyone enlists in the military to be safe, but I didn't think we'd be getting into pointless wars.

[LeahMira]

125. Then why did you go?

I am one of those who just returned from Iraq. You can't begin to imagine the conditions and psychological hell that we had to go thru while over there. You think we wanted to be there? No.


Then why did you go? The guys who went to Vietnam believed that they were fighting for freedom. I'm sure (having known many of them) that they were scared, but at the time they went a whole lot of folks supported that war. The protests etc. didn't begin until the war had been going on for years. This time around there were protests before the war even started. There was plenty going on to give you cause to pause and think about what you were doing. You went anyhow.

Please understand that I do realize that the guys over there are suffering and scared, and that they don't want to be there. I don't want to see any of them killed or wounded. No one should have to pay for their bad judgement with their lives, or with an arm or a leg. But honestly, I wonder why you (and others) went there. And I wonder why you and those who feel as you do aren't helping and counseling others not to go.

Have we in the U.S. already lost so much of our freedom that people like yourself no longer have a choice?

No, it isn't easy.

I'm glad you're home safely. Now, what are you going to do?

[jiacinto]

131. Maybe he didn't want to go to the brig

or Ft. Leavenworth? Didn't that ever cross your mind?

[LeahMira]

139. Of course!

Didn't that ever cross your mind?


It's simply a matter of what you want more... or less, in this case. Going to the brig seems a whole lot easier to live with than going to this particular war.

And there are other choices besides those two.

Lots of guys refused to go to Vietnam and they left the country. That's a choice.

In Israel right now lots of guys are refusing to serve in the occupied territories and they go to the Israeli version of the brig. That's a choice.

I'm not claiming that the alternatives to fighting in a war are pleasant for any of the guys. I just wonder which is easier to live with in your own conscience.

[jiacinto]

143. I still think you are being unfair

These folks are in a difficult position. Too many DUers fail to realize that.

[Deja Q]

132. Just following orders?

Please remember one thing throughout: I'm not mad at you personally, but at the whole stinking situation that Duhbya* has put everybody in.

Unless the media was lying about all the looting and pillaging and so on going on, with US troops being told to do nothing (or other reasons which are too ghastly to contemplate), how can I support what the troops are doing? (I support them coming home as Bush*'s atrocity should never have been allowed to happen and saved for a day when we DO need noble people to die for a worthwhile cause). Or being told to protect the oil wells when nuclear and other facilities were left unguarded, just ripe for the picking by real terrorists. But y'all were there when you raised the US flag on Iraqi flagpoles, more than once, and y'all were definitely getting screen presence when states of Saddam were torn down.

Y'all could have done the right thing, but you didn't. You simply did what Duhbya* said about Iraqi troops; he wouldn't tolerate any excuses from Iraqi troops caught in battle: "We were just following orders".

I apologize; you're just a trooper, just following orders (which must be humanity's favorite excuse for when military plans go wrong). Of course you're an innocent in all this. I'm mad and against the "commanding officers" and "commander in chief" who told you what to do (or what to not do...) You guys are trained to blindly obey commanding officers. That can be a strength, but Duhbya* is proving how much of a weakness that is too. How can you trust him in the future?

The "war" was wrong in the first place and MILLIONS spoke up against it. They cared enough, not just for a bunch of starving souls half a world away but for American soldiers who would face an uphill battle.

You also could have done what Duhbya did 30 years ago: Go AWOL. Especially if you knew how Duhbya's been whittling away the benefits of vets, which is a disgusting disgrace. I wouldn't fight for Duhbya* knowing how little he cared for the people who went off to die for him.

Don't think it's easy for me to feel this way, I'm a gigantic mess of conflicting feelings on the Iraq issue. I'm sorry even one person of any nationality had to die or get hurt because of Duhbya*; you troops - in a way - are still victims of a greater menace: The whole situation was based on greed and pettiness from the "commander in chief" along with his lust for vengeance on a lousy 3rd world crackpot leader.

[bobthedrummer]

133. I am against militarism and fascism as presented by the neo-conservatives

I support the troops by not wanting them to get wasted in an illegal immoral CRUSADE against evil-doers, I am not a pacifist, but I despise militarism if you catch my drift and have never espoused hatred of our military, just neo-conservative dominated faux patriotism cloaking fascist militarism.

Shit like the following ideologies espouse. Shit like The Reichmarshall Rumsfeld talks.

Revolution in Political and Military Affairs/RPMA
http://www.guerrillacampaign.com/coup.htm

Shock and Awe:Rapid Force Dominance
http://www.dodccrp.org/shockIndex.html

Warfare in The 21st Century
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/library/bibs/warfar03.htm

Dehumanizing, being counting militarists with a fascist underpinning are what I despise, not the troops under their command and disposal.

[Padraig18]

134. Welcome back!

First, let me thank you personally for your service and dedication to our nation. I cannot imagine the hell-on-earth that Iraq must be, and I pray daily for you and your brethren in Iraq, and for all your safe returns.

I think you must understand that there is an ENORMOUS difference between 'supporting the troops' and 'supporting the pResident'; I begrudge you and your comrades not a thing, and would see you all supported in *any way possible*--- food, medicine, ammunition, transportation, mail, housing, etc.--- anything and everything.

However, I am also working for their IMMEDIATE return from Iraq--- a place we should never have gone and a place from which we must remove ourselves as soon as is humanly possible.

Again, YOU I support 100%--- Bush I do NOT!

[MrPrax]

135. What hypocrites!!

"Those that died today probably had a wife, kids and were someone's sons and daughters."

You can say this about ANY soldier!! Pick a cause or a nation

Jeez does everyone think morality and legality is based on citizenship and passports...

Personally I don't care where the 'murderers' hail from in this 'eternal' war between them and us...

[Starpass]

136. I think you are responding more to the scum who have brainwashed

Americans into believing that one is unpatriotic and anti-troop if one questioned the liars, tried to out the liars, tried to prevent this war and now are trying to get the troops home and these scum out of our government. They've done quite a jobe, haven't they? And a bunch of GI's are dead. And too many Americans don't care. You can help change that by voting against this regime and working to remove it, or you can attack the 1% of people on a political website who may actually hate the occupation of 'soldering'. It doesn't do you or the dead GI's families or the ones who still are there any good to try to destroy the opposition to these Nazis. If you succeed, there are a hell of a lot more places Georgie and the liars are going to send GI's to die for no reason at all.

[Samaka 3ajiba]

137. What are your feelings toward the Iraqis, BROCockY?

How did you act while in-country? How did your platoon act?

I will withold judgement on our servicemen before lashing out, but if a majority act like that soldier who kicked down the Shiite religious flag, you are no better than this administration.

I would like to hear more about your experience in Iraq and your thoughts about the war...

[hayu_lol]

138. BROCocky...here are the two sides of the equation...(audio)

http://www.theguyjamesshow.com

Scroll down to just under 'Bring Them Home Now and click on the audio tape of Rush and a mother of a GI combined.

It has already been pointed out that many of us on this site are vets. We know what your situation is...we were against this illegal war and didnt want you and your friends involved.
We support the VA with full funding...Bush wants to save a buck.

We are the vets from WWII, Korea, Nam, and the rest of the military actions this country has been involved in since.

But, we wonder, when the little fraud visits the troops as he just did...why the troops chanted HO AH HO AH and so on...do the troops support this fraud chickenhawk?

[leesa]

140. I don't think you have been reading the posts

We tried like hell to keep you from going there but all the flag-waving non-patriots insisted that we support you by sending you to your deaths.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamondsoul]

149. HOLY MOLY! You mods are quick! n/t

[No Passaran]

156. maybe an administrator should be contacted

since no rules have been broken here.

[proud patriot]

144. I send care packages to soldiers

:grr:

[Must_B_Free]

146. One problem:

"You think we wanted to be there? No. Every time we went out on a mission, you pull out a picture of your loved one, kiss it, and hope they treat you better when you get back home than those poor Vietnam War veterans. "

That's your decision. Ok? Live with it. My decision was to go and stand on the corner beating a drum telling people the war was wrong.

"Those that died today probably had a wife, kids and were someone's sons and daughters. They probably kissed a picture of their wife and/or kids before they went out on this mission thinking everything's gonna be all right. Now they're gone. "

It really sad that they're gone. If they had made other decisions, they might be here today.

Don't blame me for the fucking war and the dead. I was against it and I put my efforts forth to keep those people alive. Who are you to say I'm against the troops?

[linazelle]

148. I have been against sending soldiers into combat needlessly

since the war began. I would never make fun of or rejoice in a soldier's death.

On the other hand, I have heard people who are pro-Bush say things like more people are killed in car accidents and muggings than in combat. Others see these deaths as the price to pay for saving the country and nothing more.

I don't see it that way. Each life lost is precious. I hope you know that many many people feel the way that I do. I can never imagine what you have been through. I am glad you are back here to talk about it and pray that all who you left behind return as well and soon.

[directinfection]

150. blaming?

I don't think i've ever seen anyone here blame the soldiers. I marched for hours so they wouldn't have to be sent there. When a soldier gets the call to go, they have to go. I blame cheny/rumsfeld for this mess. But, then i see pictures of soldiers cheering dubya as he dismounts his fighter jet and i think to myself, dang soldiers! generally soldiers are republican from what ive seen, so they assume all liberals are against them. or sometimes i make the mistake of looking at them as blind unthinking foot soldiers of the evil regime that is bush. I just can't comprehend what it means to be in the millitary...because If they tried to send me to iraq i would have given them the finger. Some things are worth fighting for, this was not.

[AnnabelLee]

151. What about the "so many" of us

Who have sent packages to soldiers, men &/or women we don't know & have never even met? I don't see you cut & pasting any quotes from those threads. Take care who you splatter with that broad brush you're using.

[No Passaran]

155. ok

then this thread obviously didn't include you. So why you're complaining?

[oasis]

157. BroCocky, did you confront the LBN posters you refer to in #19 and

what was their response to you?

Were there other threads where, in your opinion, posters displayed disrespect to our troops, and did you raise this question to them?

Have you ever heard anyone say they disgusted with our troops' behavior other than in the threads at DU? At a coffee shop,on public transportation, dentists waiting room etc.

[No Passaran]

158. OK

It's kind of impossible since I live in Ft Stewart and everyone here is either in the military or married to someone who's in the military.

It's over. I said what I wanted to say and if they have a problem with it, then get over it. I can say what I want to say just like you have a right to say how you hate US Army and potray them as murderers, child killers, rapists and so on...

Now I'm not refering to you. I don't know what your position on this subject is (this is why some people who can't think straight thought I was talking about everyone when in fact I said SO MANY.) See the difference.

[AnnabelLee]

159. The fact remains

You have not demonstrated that it is "so many" who are, in your opinion, against the troops. You have shown us only a few posts that you thought demonstrated your point. Other than that you have made vague, indignant assertions. I do not believe you have proven your case, not at all.