I am NOT starting a flame war with the faithful here

[Nimrod]

I really hope this doesn't degenerate into that. This is something I would really like to discuss and hear opinions about.

I'm looking around at things like East Waynesville Baptist, HR-whatever that will allow churches to pound the pulpit for politicians, faith-based initiatives that mean loss of civil rights, and ALL the rest that's come about in the last half-decade or so.

My question to the faithful - and again I swear this is an honest question, NOT intended to make you question your faith and NOT intended to drive you out of church and NOT intended to make you feel put upon in any way.

The question is why stay with any organized religion that seems to be insensitive to what you may feel is important? If you have faith in what God feels is good behavior, and your church does the direct opposite, wouldn't God be on your side in this matter?

As a perfect example - you're a homosexual Catholic and are being denied communion. If you don't believe that God Hates Fags, then wouldn't His wrath fall on those who denied you and literally tried to blackmail you?

As much as they'd like you to believe otherwise, a church is only a building, made by men of plaster and mortar and stone and wood. A religion is only as strong as its members (hence the conversion drives). By casting you out of your church, aren't they only hurting themselves, both in the eyes of God and in the mortal realm?

So the question is, why stay within a religion that doesn't like you or care for you? It seems God would favor you rather than the mortal church leaders who have cast you aside. Can you not find your own inner peace with God and let those who would pervert God's word to gain power face their OWN judgement?

Once again - honest discussion. I'm not religious in any way, so the concept to me is genuinely foreign and would like to hear opinions on the matter.

[Tux]

1. I agree

As a UU Deistic Buddhist, the Universe is the church. A church I attend is just a building with good people but we can't confuse the spiritual and the Universe with a simple building.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. good point

though there are a few Sufi meeting places around (and they are usually in a person's house), most Sufis I know meet at other churches, retreat centers, and even in the woods to do our practices.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Good question

I gave up going to church a long time ago. In a way, I respect the good people who still attend and support a church. But I just couldn't do it anymore. I do feel that you can still be religious and not belong to a church.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I didn't

I found that the mainstream Protestant church I was brought up in wasn't addressing my needs on a spiritual level-although the denomination was founded by mystics, mystical visions and revelations or direct God experience weren't talked about in the various churches of this denomination I attended. The final straw came when, during a Sunday School class, the president of the School Board (and my boss) made a very insulting anti-Semetic remark. This hit me to the core; it almost made me think I was a Jew in a past life. I stood up, said thinking like that was what caused the Holocost, and walked out, never to return (though the minister called and asked me to apologize to the other members of the Sunday School class).

Personally, I followed my visions and dreams until I found Sufism and a faith that invites everyone, honors everyone, and does NOT get involved in politics (although what we do as individuals is fine). The first time I attended a Sufi function, I felt that I had come home after a long long time away.

Everyone must follow their own path, and I don't say that someone should follow my example. What I would say is it is important to follow your heart on such matters, and to seek the Truth within your own being.

[BeHereNow]

8. HUGE Rumi fan here-

There are two books besides my bible
that I keep in arm's reach by my bed.
One is "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas a'Kempis
and the other is "The Open Secret" collection of Rumi.
I find both completely compatible with the bible
scripture.

I stopped attending my church, a supposedly non-denominational
church about 6 years ago, as I saw the move towards the right
rearing it's ugly head there. Interestingly enough- the pastor
there, taught that teaching and understanding scripture was
the focus of the church and what he understood his work to be.
I must say, that I DID learn a great deal from him as far as
discerning false doctrine from the teachings of Christ.

However, even there, I began to see a spirit in the members
that foreshadowed the now rampant intolerant position
of the x-tian fundies. Interrestingly enough, it was the
very things I learned in that church about discernment
that led me to leave it.

BHN

On edit: I now have only true Christians in my life, and
unfortunately, I can count them on one hand.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Interesting, isn't it

how that which helped us create an ideal can become shattered on the rock of Truth.

Hope you can see a Sema sometime. That's the ceremony done by dervishes of Rumi's order where they turn. This is where the term "whirling dervishes" came about.

[BeHereNow]

11. Me too...I would love to see a Sema.

I live in the Los Angeles area, but have never looked
into it. I'm sure there are practicing Sufi's here though.

I remember as a kid LOVING the altered state
of spinning in the front yard- think there is a connection?
Was I a whirling dervish without knowing it had a name?
LOL-
BHN

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Sufis in LA?

My husband's spiritual teacher,Tasnim, lives in Burbank! She gives regular classes and is a Semazin (whirling dervish) as well as a Murshida (teacher). The feeling of turning you had as a child is related to the Turn, but there's more to it than that. I had the honor of having a lesson from Jeladdadin Laurus, head of the Mevlevi Order of America. It was awesome, and involved positioning one's body just so (the shoulders are stretched back until you feel like you are on the Cross, for example) To fully learn the Turn takes 2 years.

If you'd like to find out more about Sufi activities in your area, please check out this website:

http://www.churchofall.us

It will give you information on Sufism and on Tasnim's activities in S. CA and around the world.

[BeHereNow]

20. GET OUTTA HERE! I live in Burbank!

PM me?
BHN

[Just Me]

5. Before (even after) I quit "religion",...

,...I went to church primarily for the fellowship,...to just be a member with others for whom I cared greatly.

[Nimrod]

6. I can understand that

In my opinion, we as a species have a pronounced tribal instinct. It accounts for a lot of things we do or don't do.

[LanternWaste]

7. They are not the majority, only the loudest

The churches and individuals who make onto the evening news are usually not indicative in any way of actual mainstream belief. The mainstream is quiet, unobtrusive and mostly engages in small "C" works of charity- Meals-On-Wheels, bakes sales, et. al. to help out needy families in the community.

We don't hear political messages from the pulpit (although, I am the first to say that there are some religious doctrines which have been co-opted by politics and therein lie some dangers if one is not mentally sharp enough to determine if the intent is political or purely religious) nor do we wish to- from either side: that stuff is good for Monday morning, but we'd rather give our interest to God on at least one day and avoid petty, political posturing for a few hours.

And this *isn't* unique- you may think it is because you never hear/see this stuff actually going on, but (in my opinion) the best works of Christianity never get advertised, sold or marketed...

We really don't want to be on the news or the subject of water-cooler discussions at the office, it's anathema to us. Our efforts and concentrations are better spent elsewhere than "how to get on the news" or "which books to ban this week"

On the other hand, there are those in any religion, any community, any ideology who will use an already established foundation to their own ends and by their own means. Mega-Churches, lavish homes owned by pastors without any sense of humility, whether in the presence of God or not. Bookkeeping scandals, BMS's, buxom, blonde "secretaries".

Yes- they pish me off. But they can't and don't tell me what my church can or cannot do. "They" are not monolithic within the entire Protestant community. They are actually aberrations. Abominations. Hypocrites and Thieves. Snake-Oil Salesmen using the guise of Christianity to achieve an agenda wholly outside of the church.

No snake-oil salesman wants a man who knows the truth in the audience, if I were one-- I'd force him out. No Huckster of Religion wants a truly religious man in his presence or else he'd be outed before he began his con.

And in our case, it seems the snake-oil salesman has the town sheriff (*, that is) on his side....

in the long run, he doesn't weaken either my religion or my faith in my religion, he only weakens his own contract with God... but that's his choice, regardless of whether he perceives what the consequences are or not.

[cally]

9. I think folks stay in the hopes they can change

others opinions and for the fellowship. I disagree that the church is just a building. When I attend regularly, I get a sense of fellowship and a sense of belonging. Folks help each other out and many are involved together on community projects like food banks and abused women shelters. It's like a second family.

However, I've left a church two times over gay rights and politics. It's very hard to leave.

[alcuno]

12. I've explained before, being Catholic is like being Polish or

German or Irish and I'm tired of getting lumped in with the fundies. Gay Catholics are not being denied communion; communion is an individual decision that Catholics are taught to make.

If some diocese is banning people who are wearing a sash, they can do that. Nobody, NOBODY should play politics with communion. The Catholic Church is OUR Church and mass is about the coming together and NOT personality driven. We don't go to be entertained.

Along with other religions, we are joined together by the Nicene Creed and all this other stuff is a lot of noise.


We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
He came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

[merh]

22. Amen.

As a nomad Catholic, I go to mass to experience the mass. It is a part of who I am. I find comfort there. I am reminded of Christ's sacrifices and his messages when I go to mass.

I learned a very long time ago that the leaders of my religion are not my religion. They are humans that make mistakes and commit sins. Sometimes they are misguided and some times they just miss the boat all together.

My faith is mine, it is personal, it belongs to me and is between me and my God. I try to emulate Christ's life, as recorded in the New Testament, thus I suppose I am a new testament christian. The old testament is full of confusing messages and Christ said he came to fulfill the laws, not rewrite them. That means I should try to live my life in his examples. To love unconditionally. To forgive constantly. To give to others and do for others as I would want them to give and do for me.

My God is a ever loving, always forgiving being. The organized religion that is insensitive to what I feel is important is made up of human beings that make mistakes and that commit sins. I have been taught to forgive my brother 70 X 7 times (endlessly).

The graces and the blesses I receive by practing my religion, by living my faith come from God, not man. Putting too much responsibility in the hands of man is a mistake. It is up to me to live my faith, not to live it through the religion.

As I said, I am a nomad, with no parish. I go from church to church to hear different priests give the homily, to enjoy their fellowship and to experience the sacrament of the mass.

It is up to me to find the truth, to know God and to live accordingly. If I try to blame others, I am just cheating myself.

:shrug:

[zanne]

25. Ummmm. Errrr.. That's not true. alcuno.

I don't believe that, since my parents wanted me to be baptized and I was just a baby, that my fate is sealed. Ultimately, one decides whether or not they're Catholic, when they reach a certain age. Nob ody is BORN Catholic. I was born French-Canadian too, but that doesn't mean I speak French.

[alcuno]

26. Just remember. We can still bury you.

The Catholic Church considers you ours. Once you've been baptized and then had the sacrament of reconciliation, the sacrament of communion, and your confirmation, you are IN GOOD.

And any baptized Catholic can receive a Catholic burial. However, in answer to the question of why we stay, MANY of us come from Catholic families, attended Catholic schools, and did all the Catholic stuff. It's not an option or a choice, it just is what we are.

Think about it. There are people who haven't been to mass for YEARS and when asked they tell you they are Catholic.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. "and when asked they tell you they are Catholic"

Guilty as charged.

[zanne]

38. Still wrong.

Obviously, you haven't asked around enough. Please don't pretend to speak for me--it's insulting. I went to Catholic school, graduated from both Catholic grammar and high school. My family is very Catholic. Of course it's an option and a choice! What you're saying is that people can't decide for themselves and have no free will! You can say that about youself if you want, but don't speak for me, OK?

[gratuitous]

13. What lanternwaste said

Also, it's important to distinguish the various Christian denominations, so that you don't confuse an authoritarian top-down denomination like the Catholics with more horizontally organized, congregational models such as the Baptists, Mennonites or Church of the Brethren.

The Church of the Brethren determines its denominational polity at its Annual Conference, but decisions of the delegate body (made up of representatives from all the congregations and Districts of the denomination) can be reviewed, rehashed, renewed or reneged from time to time at subsequent Annual Conferences. This can make for either a wishy-washy polity or a very dynamic one that meets the needs of the body as they change and grow over the years. There are certainly elements in the Brethren who would like to see more deathless pronouncements on the nature of Sin and Evangelism, but they are tempered and their harder edges softened by having to persuade a delegation whose members are drawn from all over the country and the world.

At the 2002 Annual Conference, the delegate body voted to prohibit the ordination of sexual minorities as the official policy of the denomination. However, in the years since then, questions have been raised about the technical difference between polity and policy, the propriety of the vote as it was taken, and several other tangential issues. It is my confident hope that this particular decision will be overturned in the coming years, as the Spirit of Jesus who welcomes all gains prominence in the body and more persons take the time and the effort to discern the will of God.

And that's why I remain a committed, faithful and tithing member of the Church of the Brethren.

[Wheezy]

14. why do I stay...

well, I'm married to a pastor. The last church my husband served was a mega-church with a large staff and lots of rules. After three years of fighting against the leadership (I refused to become a member, which ticked them off), I told my husband that I would no longer be attending, and he supported that--he was ready to give up as well, since there was no sign of budging from the executive staff. He began to look for another church and within a few months, found the one we are currently in. I am cautiously optimistic here. This church teaches from the Bible and leaves politics alone. They won't take a stance on issues that aren't clearly defined. While it's more conservative than I'd like, I do see potential for change here, and a willingness to be open to things. They established a support group for friends and families of homosexuals -- this group doesn't exist to talk about the 'sin', but to help folks who've grown up with Dobson telling them it's the parents 'fault' to deal with it. I'm hoping to take the next step in that area. I am working right now to make the church totally, 100% accepting toward our gay friends--and spending a lot of time teaching the truth about what the Bible says about homosexuality.

I stay because I think I can make a difference. Believe me, I was angry when my husband decided to go into ministry...he knows I've never forgiven him, lol. But since I've been stuck as a pastor's wife the past 13 years, I've become more vocal, outspoken, and proactive for the things that are important to me--equality for all, compassion for poor, homeless, etc--and, I hope, the things that would be important to Jesus, not James Dobson or Pat Robertson.

Great questions.

[BeHereNow]

19. Welcome to DU and I commend you!

I commend you for your bravery- couldn't have
been easy refusing membership in the church
your husband was the pastor!
You are MY kind of Christian- it's not
easy standing up against the pharisees.
BHN

[DARE to HOPE]

28. Hey, Wheezy! :-) Welcome to DU!

Me, too. Married to a pastor, that is. Degrees in classical music and political science. Married and in this Lutheran congregation 30 years. What a ride!

Sounds like you HAVE made a difference already! Hooray for you! I have found that God tosses every issue one's way as you have the way to handle it. Prayer helps, also a supportive network of friends, though the life can be 24/7. God loves YOU, too, and wants the best for both of you, and for any children you have.


Why stay? Family history/connections is one deep reason, though also a reason sometimes to go. Also, the God of Love and Light needs His disciples to stay and teach, and pray for the Church/church at large. The major thing that really changed our "club mentality" rightwing dominated parish was 1) Bible study and prayer among the faithful and 2) when we finally went to weekly communion. Inviting in the Holy Spirit made all the difference in our group of working class folks in a mixed race area.

Change is not easy for people, and they only change in an atmosphere of trust. I think the congregation is a unique place for people to grow and shed their prejudices, and learn to love each other, across the lines of difference we have in our society.


As for the R Catholics--history that leads all the way back to Jesus is not so easy to walk away from.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. God bless you, Wheezy

[KittyWampus]

15. Along W/Others Comments- Qabalism Suggests Being A Light In The Darkness

others have lit the way for us as we, in turn, hold the lamp for those beneath us on the path.

If everyone segregated into us and them camps... we wouldn't be able to communicate well or influence one another.

[wicket]

16. My church isn't like that

I am happy to belong to an open and welcoming church such as the United Church of Christ.

http://www.ucc.org/

A couple of months ago, the UCC tried to air a TV ad on ABC that basically said all are welcome- even gays. ABC considered this to be "too controversial" and said they didn't accept religious advertising. And yet, just a few nights ago they aired a Focus on the Family ad:

http://www.ucc.org/news/r050305.htm

I don't understand what is "too controversial" about a house of worship accept gays.

As for why people who stay with faiths that shun them- I can't answer for them, but thanks for asking such an interesting question. :)

[Wheezy]

36. You're on the radio, though!

Wicket, Air America Radio (Phoenix) has lots and lots of local ads about the United Church of Christ... 'we ordained the first woman, the first gay pastor,' etc. I know that I will visit one of these churches eventually--I am so curious to enjoy one of these services on a Sunday when I'm not committed at my own.

I think the UCC has something great going for them.

(And the FotF ads are just pathetic.)

[wicket]

39. Welcome to DU Wheezy!

I did not know the UCC ads were in Air America- that's great! You are always welcome to attend a service, the people are so nice and welcoming, it's a home away from home for me :)

[Wheezy]

43. It sounds like a great place.

Thanks for the welcome. There are three ads that run several times a day for the local UCCs on Air America -- one church in Phoenix, one in Tempe, and some other nearby city (Mesa or Scottsdale?). First, it's cool that the three churches would rise above the competitive nature churches tend to have and pool their ads. And second, the ads sound like real people speaking, not some canned spokesperson tauting a bunch of fluff. Impressive.

[LostinVA]

17. A colleague of mine is gay and a devout Catholic

I was raised Catholic, and stayed in the Church much longer than my heart wanted to. I'm female and gay, and just couldn't stay with an institution that detracted me that way. I know many DUers can, and I'm not criticizing you. I just couldn't go it.

I asked my colleague about this after Ratzinger became Pope, and he got REALLY pissed at me -- he said doctrine meant NOTHING, only faith did. I was like WTF??? I spent many years teaching CCD and studying RC theology, and I told him that was heresy, and if faith was "all" that mattered, there were many welcoming congregations like the UCC and UU. He told me I just didn't understand and refused to discuss it with me. For the record, I was very respectful of his beliefs -- I was just trying to understand. He is out to everyone and has a longtime partner.

[More Than A Feeling]

21. Because my (American) Baptist church is filled with flaming liberals

starting with my wonderful (female) pastor. That and Separation of Church and State is written into American Baptist's (very limited) doctrine.

In summary, the wonderful thing about religious freedom and separation of church and state is that it has created a religious bazaar. If your particular denomination doesn't do it for you, there is another that will welcome you with open arms. You don't even have to change religions

[blondeatlast]

32. Your second point is too easily overlooked, but cogent.

IF it doesn't bring you contentment, you can move along.

Believers of all stripes who are frightened by the wackjob Theocon leaders need to really think about this.

[corbett]

23. It's A Form Of Desperation

They are so happy to have a politician whose faith (shallow as it may be) is on the evening news instead of Monica's blue dress that they'll swallow the guff hook, line and sinker. I can write chapters about people I know who are otherwise intelligence and discerning. When I show them evidence about the shrub, whether his blasphemy or his war mongering or his categorical lies, it rolls right off their backs and they stick their head in the biblical sand.

That's part of why I love PDA so much - because many of the members are the most devout Christians you'll find anywhere:

http://www.pdamerica.org/video.php

[Bouncy Ball]

24. I can answer that:

The question is why stay with any organized religion that seems to be insensitive to what you may feel is important? If you have faith in what God feels is good behavior, and your church does the direct opposite, wouldn't God be on your side in this matter?

Well, that's why I didn't go to ANY church for a number of years. And that's also why I now go to a UU (Unitarian Universalist) church. Liberal, concerned with peace, social justice, and fighting poverty. Accepting of everyone (literally), no creed you have to recite or believe, the UU church believes everyone should use their own conscious as a guide to reach their own answers and that we can help each other in that journey.

The UU congregation I attend has Christians of all flavor, atheists, agnostics, pagans, Jews, Buddhists, and a couple of former fundies who don't call themselves anything, spiritually!

It's wonderful. And finally I go to and support a church whose behavior and beliefs are in line with my own.

FINALLY.

http://www.uua.org

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Personally, I attend a church that is open and welcoming and

heavily into social justice and international peace. (It's Episcopal.)

But I think I can answer on behalf of the liberal Catholics who stick with their church. In each diocese, there seems to be a "maverick" Catholic church (e.g. St. Joan of Arc in Minneapolis, St. Philip Neri in Portland, Oregon) where the bishop looks the other way and all the liberals congregate.

Being Catholic is as much a certain style of spirituality as a laundry list of beliefs, and for someone whose personality is suited to Catholic spirituality, no other church will do. If such a Catholic went to a Unitarian church, it wouldn't feel enough like church to be satisfying.

[Merope215]

29. The Catholic church I attend sporadically

is very, very liberal, like one of the ones Lydia Leftcoast mentioned. It's the parish church for a very gay-friendly college (known as the "Gay Ivy") and is always getting reprimanded by the bishop for being too liberal.

But I sometimes go to other churches, when I'm home on breaks or visiting my grandmother, that are more conservative. The ritual is comforting, and the sense of participating in something with lots of other people, even if you don't them, is nice - you mentioned the "tribal instinct" a while back and that probably has a lot to do with it.

My little college parish has a real focus on teaching college students to understand Catholicism, and it's brought out for me the emphasis on suffering that has helped me understand a great deal more than I used to. I realized that the whole point behind the Christian mythos is that God came down and was tortured and beaten as a seditious criminal, one of the dregs of society. That absolute identification of the divine with the poor, the hopeless, the lonely, the voiceless, the oppressed, and the pained is, to me, extremely powerful: wherever there is suffering, God is with those in pain. I think it's a good way to understand our duties and obligations to those less fortunate than we, and it also provides a way to get through personal suffering and problems in one's own life (though of course there's always the danger, which should be guarded against, of being too passive about things that could and should be changed). Understanding that has actually made me even more liberal.

I'm straight, so I can't answer your question about gay Catholics, but to me they are among those people oppressed by much of society with whom God as I understand him has a special relationship. Anyway, sorry if this was kind of confusing (I don't really understand it fully yet myself), but there's something, I suppose. :hi:

[Kipepeo]

30. I see this as a choice between where you want to

try to change things from. Some people choose to try and change things from the inside, others prefer from the outside.

I am one of the ones who left my religion because I felt it so toxic at one point in my life - so I have since worked from the "outside." But I have, of late, become interested in religions/churches that are open to my political/worldview beliefs and so have started thinking about attending again.

I will say this - it is SO HARD to fight from the inside. So I have MUCH appreciation for those who choose that path.

As for that NC church in particular, perhaps they want to stay to 1) defend their heritage there as longtime members or 2) to keep their church from becoming what it is on the road to becoming. I think they want to reclaim it. And that makes me happy....to see people standing up for what they believe is right *in their own community and day-to-day life.*

[blondeatlast]

31. I rarely attend church. I do enjoy the socialization aspect, and good,

educated, thoughtful pastors can really make one think about things.

You are absolutely right--but to be EXILED from something that has been an institution, a source of strength, an intrinsic part of your lives--well, just think about what it's like to lose a job or get a divorce after 30 years.

DUers, and the Democratic Party and other LW orgs, would do well to realize that church is NOT all about religion, and that the reverse is true as well.

When we've come to even a tiny understanding of the place church holds in so-called "red state" culture, we'll be well on our way to winning the votes of those who have voted against THEMSELVES for far too long.

Until then--we'll have the same results.

[Nimrod]

35. Thanks for all the great answers!

I think I have a better understanding of a problem that's been nagging at me. I appreciate it. :)

[mmonk]

37. I go occasionally

because my family always has. My wife wants to still go as her parents do. I don't go every Sunday and catch grief, so I do every once in awhile. But you know, you can't change anything from the outside.

[progressivebydesign]

40. No flame here.. I was wondering the same things. n/t

[IrateCitizen]

41. Because it is the STORIES that bind people together...

Joseph Campbell revealed this basic truth perhaps better than anyone else. Now, you can say what you want about how religion has been abused and co-opted by power-mongers throughout history -- and a good bit of it would be true! But the simple truth is that religions of varying sorts have provided the stories and traditions that bind people together.

I, myself, was raised a Protestant Christian in a Presbyterian Church. I became disillusioned with much of the dogma surrounding Christianity and left the church about 7 years ago. Since that time, I joined a Unitarian Universalist Church for about 3 years.

But I was still finding myself extremely dissatisfied. Why? Because after drifting away from it, I realized that the story of Jesus was the one that still spoke most to me. I realized the importance of that story -- and the morals that it teaches us -- as being central to my life in many ways. The problem I found with UU's is that there was NO story that united them together. Rather, our congregation seemed to be the stereotype of Unitarians -- a place where intellectuals with nothing better to do gather on a Sunday morning.

So, I find myself drawn to Christianity because of the story that lies at the heart of it. Those who would pervert that message to serve the powers-that-be are not going to succeed in corrupting my own interpretation of it.

[txaslftist]

42. Christ's message is love.

You asked the wrong question. Here's your question:

"So the question is, why stay within a religion that doesn't like you or care for you? It seems God would favor you rather than the mortal church leaders who have cast you aside. Can you not find your own inner peace with God and let those who would pervert God's word to gain power face their OWN judgement?"

My RELIGION doesn't dislike or fail to care for me. Christ does not care what church I attend, he loves me regardless. Here's the tricky part: 2,000 + years ago a guy came along and talked about hypocracy and loving your neighbor and not being judgmental and loving others as yourself, etc etc etc. If you read WHAT HE SAID in the sermon on the mount and various other places, it is hard to disagree with it. That's not the tricky part. Ghandi could have said the same things, and mostly did. Ghandi's nonviolent resistance was much the same as Christ's turn the other cheek. Ghandi was wildly successful using nonviolent resistance, he freed a huge nation. Christ was hugely successful, his faith spread to the entire world, becoming the dominant one for a huge portion of us. The tricky part is Christ claimed to be the messiah, the son of god.

David Khoresh made similar claims, but he was a pedophile, a polygamist and a sicko. Ghandi made no such claims, but he was a good and pure person who was as honest as anyone could be. Christ combined the outrageous claim with the reputation for honesty. So was he telling the truth? In those days there were neither cameras nor scientific methods to verify Christ's miracles. The only things they had for evidence or verification were witnesses, whose sworn testimony formed the basis of judgment.

The chief miracle of Christ's earthly life was his resurrection. Lots of witnesses observed his crucifiction, including the apostles. Lots of witnesses observed his resurrection, including the apostles. If he did, in fact, defeat resurrection and rise from the dead, that was a bona-fide, tough to beat, indisputable miracle. The evidence of the witnesses to the fact supports this miracle. If that miracle occurred, Christ was indeed the son of god, and is indeed alive today as he said.

There are people in my church whose politics I disagree with. What we generally do agree on is the fact of the resurrection and the divinity of Christ. Christ commanded fellowship, ie- go to church. It doesn't have to be First Baptist (I'd be excommunicated from there, I'm sure); it could be your own unofficial church in your basement for all it matters with no one there but your family.

There are a lot of churches, some of the them huge and proud with tons of money, that are nothing but spiritual graveyards and houses of bigotry, exclusion and greed. Waynesville's church is probably of that type. My church is not like that, and my pastor is someone I can sit down with and have a beer with. I go to my church because I feel at home there, I feel welcome there, and it brings me closer to understanding the miracle of Christ, which I really believe in.

Sam Adams (I think it was) once wrote that the resurrection of Christ would one day be regarded in the same fashion as the divine birth of the Caesars or the mythology of the Greeks. That may be true, and I may be a horrible dupe for believing what I do.

Nevertheless, if you read the words of Christ you will find a message of tolerance, mercy, generosity to the poor, and being a genuine person that is undisputably true. The message of the gospels is much more of a Democrat message than it ever was a Republican message. "It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" Those are the words of the world's primary proto-democrat, who is also my savior (I believe).