Russia + Saudi Arabia=US IS FUCKED

[Beetwasher]

Russia and SA are hooking up. This SA getting nukes story is the real deal. The've partnered with Russia. That's why poppy went to Russia. That's why this happened immediately afterward:

U.S. Bars Russian Company Over Iran Sales
Tue Sep 16, 5:08 PM ET

WASHINGTON - A Russian company was barred Tuesday from U.S. contracts because it was found to be selling laser-guided artillery shells to Iran.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&e=3&u=/ap/us_russia

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/News/GlobalNews/US+told+not+to+meddle+in+Russia+Iran+N-ties.htm

Russia gives US hands-off warning

Wednesday 17 September 2003, 20:57 Makka Time, 17:57 GMT

Russia has warned the US not to pressure it over its nuclear links with Iran as the top US arms control official arrived in Moscow for talks on non-proliferation and an upcoming Russia-US summit.

--snip--

Here's the LBN discussion of the Saudi's Looking into nukes with a Guardian Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=120348&mesg_id=120348

Oh and don't forget the recent "Oil Deal" between SA and Russia. Was it just an oil deal? And we recently just up and left the country to after having a presence there for quite a while. Maybe they're looking for a new bodyguard? It's not like they're lacking in funds w/ gas at $2 a gallon. Just putting the pieces together here. Things are moving fast and furious.

[bahrbearian]

1. Very Good Catch....

[thebigidea]

2. well, no wonder Poppy was snivellllling around Putin recently...

[Beetwasher]

5. Russia's making a move to be the Sugar Daddy for the Mid-east

and there ain't much we can do about it. They're for hire to at least SA and Iran it seems...Not good, not good at all...

[sistersofmercy]

12. Exactly, trying to bail out the unfortunate son!!!

Run, Georgie Boy, Run, Isabelle is after you, she is the universal wrath coming to get you!

[fizzana]

3. At someb point the war in Iraq is going to spill over the

borders and then everything will be fucked. November 2004 can't come soon enough.

[whathappened]

4. think this whole bunch

in d.c. are a bunch of doom dayers , they want world war 3 so they can go home , well me thinks they are'nt going to make the great place in the sky , they are going down were the fires are hot and ever lasting

[madrchsod]

6. russia and saudi`s

signed a agreement to develope the saudi`s production of natural gas. the western oil companies lost out to the russians..the deal is worth over 25 billion dollars...the saudi`s are also boycotting the hospitals and clinics in the united states .several hundreds of million dollars lost because the saudi men have to state whether their wifes were prostitutes or maddams on their travel forms....

[protect freedom impeach bush now]

7. Bush has 'taught' the world that unless you got nukes, you're next

Bush has screwed everything BIG TIME.

Bush has opened Pandora's box.
Bush has 'taught' the world that UNLESS you have nukes,
you might be next on the PNAC's list to their next occupation.

REPEAT -

Bush has shown the entire world that NO country is safe
from a PNAC backed military invasion/occupation UNLESS you have
NUKES.

hence the Saudis HAVE the means - LOTS OF MONEY,
AND the ability -- Russian 'friends' have nukes to sell.


Bush has taught governments worldwide -

THAT YOU BETTER GET NUKES UNLESS YOU WANT THE PNAC CABAL
TO TAKE OVER YOUR COUNTRY AND YOUR COUNTRY'S NATURAL RESOURCES.

[_Wayne_]

8. Why isn't Iran allowed to buy missiles from Russia?

I'm not sure what you mean by "US IS FUCKED." Iran could buy all the missiles in Russia and would not be much of a threat to the U.S., all things considered. Atomic weapons is another matter.

[Beetwasher]

9. Just putting 2+2 together

Iran is also perhaps producing the radioactive material for nukes, there's a big hullabaloo about it w/ the IAEA.

SA has a major deal w/ Russia, and tells the world it's seeking nukes.

That's something to be very worried about.

[Blue_Chill]

16. 2 + 2 = PNAC has a better reason to invade Iran

If any of you care to stop further war you will oppose any weapons entering the middle east.

[IranianDemocrat]

37. Here's my take on the IAEA thing.

You may have heard, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) imposed an October 31 deadline on Iran to prove it is not secretly developing atomic weapons.

It seems that the world has mistakenly interpreted Iran's recent calm and moderate behavior on the international scene as a sign of weakness or fear. In this day and age moderation and reason no longer seem to carry any weight among international community and the only language that is respected appears to be that of force and belligerence. Countries like Israel, and N. Korea are being respectfully rewarded for their continuous breach of international norms and rules while those who have been pinning their hopes on UN and reason prevailing have either been obliterated or continue to suffer more and more day by day.

In the past couple of years countries like Pakistan, Jordan, and Turkey have been receiving billions of dollars and unlimited political support for their minimal support in the fight against terrorism while Iran has been providing most of the crucial help in this regard. From supporting the Northern alliance and the new interim government in Afghanistan, to putting a leash on Lebanon's Hezbollah, to staying out of Iraq and keeping the Iraqi Shiites calm, to withholding support for Russian Chechens and Turkish Kurds, to starting a detente with the Persian Gulf countries Iran has done more than any country in the world to keep the middle east quiet and stable in the past few years. Not only Iran has not received any monitory or political recognition for its immense work in stabilizing the region and thus the price of oil and world economy, it has instead been continuously attacked and mislabeled. And now this bogus deadline to disprove a negative.

It is time for Iran to stop playing nice with these bullies. Clearly the only language that Bush Administration understands is the use of force.

IMO, Iran should give U.S., IAEA and the rest of the world an October 31 deadline to either prove beyond reasonable doubt that Iran is producing nuclear weapons or back the f.. off and apologize for their stupid move. Otherwise, Iran should pull out of IAEA and immediately cease all the political influence that it has been spending in keeping all the different volatile groups in that region quiet and thus give the world a taste of what it would be like when Iran is destabilized.

[charlie]

10. Saudi Arabia is rotten to the core

and the House of Saud may be on the brink of collapse. I've read that their civil infrastructure is so infiltrated with Wahabists that the royal family is losing control of the government. When Fahd goes, it's a crapshoot whether the whole thing comes unglued. So if the Saudis get nukes, Boy George may wind up bestowing upon the world exactly what we've been fearing for years -- an hardline Islamist nuclear power state.

[Cascadian]

11. You might as well add China and France to the mix

Then the US is real trouble!

John

[Blue_Chill]

15. France is weak and China can't move it's forces anywhere.

Russia is stil the only real threat to the US. All china could do is aid Russia if we attacked Russia.

As for France? They can't do squat, they have no power that anyone respects at all.

[NNN0LHI]

21. You must be kidding. I hope your kidding? Aren't you kidding?

Yes France's boomers cannot destroy the earth a hundred times over as America's can. They can only destroy the earth a few times over. Which to me is a difference without a distinction.

Don

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/frnukes.html

Sea-Based Strategic Weapons

L'Inflexible (SNLE M4) SSBN

Like U.S. and British SSBNs, the French have two rotating crews for each of their missile boats, which they call Rouge (red) and Bleu (blue). The submarines usually spend two months on patrol, then return to Brest to exchange crews and perform maintenance before heading back out to sea. French policy has been to maintain three SSBNs ready at all times, with two at-sea on patrol. This was difficult with the early M-1 SLBMs and M-2 SLBMs, which had to patrol off Norway's north coast to reach inland targets in Russia. The M-4 has cut down dramatically on transit time to patrol areas, which because of the greater range can include the western Atlantic. With M-4 missiles, the SSBNs can even reach some targets in Russia from dockside in France. Each SSBN carries several predetermined "target dossiers" on magnetic disks. The entire complement of 16 M-4 missiles can be fired in three to four minutes.

Unlike the British, who developed a sea-based deterrent with significant U.S. aid, the French did it largely on their own. While there was much U.S. sharing of nuclear design and test data with the United Kingdom, including the outright sale of SLBMs, there was little such cooperation with the French. In the spirit of Charles de Gaulle's independent force de frappe, and its later incarnation, the force de dissuasion, the French embarked on constructing their own nuclear triad. Little American aid was forthcoming during initial development, though there was some U.S. nuclear aid after 1972, after the French had developed their first generation of weapons. French SSBNs and SLBMs consequently have lagged at least a generation behind those in the U.S. arsenal. Today the United States is sharing testing and simulation data with the French to help them maintain their arsenal under the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

more

Le Triomphant SSBN (SNLE-NG)

The M-45 is an upgraded SLBM that will be deployed on the new Le Triomphant SSBNs. Compared to its predecessor, the M-4, the M-45 has upgraded electronics, re-entry vehicle, and warhead. The reentry vehicle is coated with a new material and has a precisely designed shape, a high reentry speed, and is accompanied by advanced penetration aids to defeat ABM defenses. The new TN-75 warhead is miniaturized and hardened against EMP effects. The TN-75 warhead has been described as "almost invisible" due to its stealth characteristics. Talk of ABM defenses and the U.S. Strategic Defense Initiative in the 1980s spurred development of a design that would be resistant to such measures. As Chirac stated, the French nuclear tests at Muroroa Atoll in 1995-6 in part stemmed from the need to test this new warhead design. Deployment of the M-45 is expected to extend until 2010-15, when a follow-on M-5 SLBM will be deployed in its place.

The Le Triomphants will initially use the M-45 SLBM with TN-75 warhead, but are planned to use a new missile, the M-51, which is under development. The proposed M-51 SLBM is a very long-term project; backfitting of the Le Triomphant class to carry the proposed M-51 is scheduled to begin in 2010. Four boatloads of M-51s were originally to be ordered but this number will likely be reduced to three to rotate among the four planned submarines. In addition to torpedoes for self-defense, the Le Triomphants also carry an unknown number of SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles.

more

M-4 SLBM

A primary goal of the M-4 was defeating the upgraded Soviet ABM system. To this end, the TN-70/-71 warheads were "extremely hardened" to resist EMP effects from nearby nuclear blasts, and were miniaturized. With U.S. aid, the French were able to space (using explosive charges to propel the warheads away from the central missile bus) the incoming warheads so that a Soviet ABM nuclear blast would only destroy one of the missile's six warheads. Ninety-six of the earlier TN-70 warheads were manufactured (missiles carrying the TN-70 are sometimes referred to as the M-4A). An improved variant, the TN-71, has a lower radar cross section and is reported as more survivable against ABM defenses -- 288 warheads were manufactured (missiles with the TN-71 are sometimes called the M-4B).

more

[BrotherBuzz]

13. While Putin is polishing his game of chess...

Numbnut Bush* is cheating at checkers. King Me!

[Blue_Chill]

14. How does that fuck the US?

Seems to me Saudi Arabia getting nukes just gives the PNAC a better excuse to conquer more of the middle east.

[Beetwasher]

17. Candidate Flame War Kick

n/t

[sham]

18. kick

:kick:

[SnohoDem]

19. Shouldn't that be

WE ARE FUCKED?

US IS FUCKED sounds a little freeperish, y'know?

[Beetwasher]

20. Double Entendre

U.S.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

22. Good job Bush, thanks a lot

He's a uniter all right, uniting our enemies against us.

[depakid]

23. As usual, your instincts seem dead on.

I've been folowing these little reported events, too and connecting some dots.

My dad is an old cold warrior, who used to drone on and on about the strategic importance of keeping Russian influence out of the Persian Gulf. Next time I talk to him, I'll be sure to get an earful if I bring this up....

[Beetwasher]

25. Thanks

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I can't help but shake the feeling that I'm not. I saw some discussion on the news last night about SA getting nukes and the analyst I saw was spinning this as "merely boasting" by SA to use as leverage. I don't think so. Why would they make empty boasts when they've got all the cash in the world to make good? The way we've been rattling our sabers at every country in the region, and now that we've pulled our troops out, and now that many in this country are accusing them (rightfully so IMO) of harboring and financing terrorism, they have every single reason to seek a nuke for self-protection. This is bad, very bad. And we have only ourselves to blame. By being belligerent we drove SA, Iran and Russia right into eachothers arms. Now THAT'S diplomacy! (or anti-diplomacy?).

[Sephirstein]

24. Guess I'm going to sleep tonight...

Oh well...

The first Cisco test will be a joke anyways.

[htuttle]

26. And what do the Russians get out of this?

(other than simply getting some pieces into a stronger position 'on the board').

Russian oil is very expensive to develop. I looked up the actual figures, and in 2001, it cost Saudi Arabia about $1.50 a barrel to pump and deliver oil. In that same year, it was costing the Russians about $12.50 a barrel to produce oil.

So, back when oil got down to $13/barrel, the Russians didn't even bother to pump it. Now that it's up around $30/barrel, it makes good economic sense for them to sell their oil.

Putting 2+2 together, what Putin will get out of the deal is an assurance from Saudi Arabia to keep the price of oil high enough for Russia to make a decent profit on their own production.

So I'd look at $30/barrel oil as 'the new normal', so to speak.

[Beetwasher]

27. Excellent Post

And a kick cuz I think this is an important subject...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

30. I agree

Russian oil only becomes profitable to export at a high price, and with prices high recently they've made a lot of money. I expect any deal between SA and Russian will be about keeping the price high, exactly as you said.

[MariMayans]

28. unless this has changed..

We have had nukes in Saudi Arabia since the 1950's.

[Beetwasher]

29. Uhh, yes, it has changed

We no longer have a military presence in SA. We up and left. And, on top of that, I'm not so sure we had nukes there anyway. Source?

Additionally, if WE had nukes there, which I doubt, they were OURS, not SA's. See the difference?

[MariMayans]

31. Dhahran airfield didn't close

<snip>Before the era of ICBM's, among the first strategic forces deployed overseas to deter the Soviet Union were American bombers armed with nuclear weapons at Dhahran airfield on Saudi Arabia's eastern shore.<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/04/30/nyt.tyler/


We didn't really leave, we just moved the visible presense out of sight and I'm sure we probably still keep nukes there.

The Aramco puppet regime isn't going to turn on us, it's just play acting to try and keep the public from throwing them out in the street and if they did and did it quickly enough to capture Dhahran airfield they would have nukes instantly.

[Beetwasher]

34. Again

Those were OUR bombs. They are trying to get their own. Play acting? Yeah, sure, go ahead, don't take them seriously. That's NOT a very smart position.

"We didn't really leave, we just moved the visible presense out of sight and I'm sure we probably still keep nukes there."

Uh huh. I'll just take your word for it. Again, continue believing that and you're setting yourself up for a very nasty surprise.

"The Aramco puppet regime isn't going to turn on us, it's just play acting to try and keep the public from throwing them out in the street and if they did and did it quickly enough to capture Dhahran airfield they would have nukes instantly."

That is a very dangerous position to take. I apparently take this matter of national defense much more seriously than you do. Hopefully our gov't isn't as blind and their publicly stated position, which mirrors your own, is really just a cover. With the news stories I posted that clearly show Russia making moves in the region, the evidence is on the side of my judgements. You've got nothing but a CNN link that doesn't work about deployments the were pre-ICBM.

[PurityOfEssence]

32. Russia hooking up with Islam isn't anything to fear in a lasting way

The Russians, like the Serbs, largely identify themselves as the Christian faithful who've kept the Muslims at bay. Don't forget Chechnya.

There may be momentary alliances of convenience, but Russian movers and shakers aren't crazy, stupid or blind to their very obvious history or painful present.

[Beetwasher]

35. I Think You're Underestimating the Opportunistic Nature

of the Russian leaders and their desire to challenge the US once again and re-assume a larger roll in the world. Nothing would serve their purposes more than taking the US down a notch. Regardless of the long term stability of such an alliance, the short term implications are something to be very concerned about.

[Rich Hunt]

33. kick

:kick:

[BonjourUSA]

36. STOP THE PARANO !!!!!

:crazy:

[Beetwasher]

38. What?

I assume you mean paranoia? You need to pay attention Chester. This isn't paranoia, read the articles I posted. It's merely conjecture. I'm not hiding under my bed or anything. Get a grip.