General Clark is a War Criminal who is UNFIT to be our President

[seventhson]

I tried like hell to post this on LBN a few times and got shut down twice on the basis of it being an "opinion" piece.

Maybe it is more than twelve hours old but I will be damned if this is not the hottest investigative reporting news I have seen in this election so far.

Here is the story:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen09172003.html

and the sources appear to be impeccable.

Clark is someone who BELONGS in Guantanomo as a war criminal IMHO

NOT someone fit to serve as MY commander in chief.

Jesus. Has DU gone to the dogs on this or WHAT???


The media campaign seems to have converged HERE at DU.

Is this an anagram for Argdamedon?

Is THIS the battlefield where the Truth is Borne?


Clark really looks like chicken grease in this election now.

Just what good progressive liberal democrats and lefties and greens WANT --- a Freakin war criminal for Christ's sake.

Pitiful and disgusting.

I'll dance with Dean. At least he is a HEALER by trade instead of a mass killer.

Jesus. Help the blind to see, man

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. Unlucky Thirteen

Welcome to Ignore, seventhson.

*PLONK*

DTH

[seventhson]

3. I guess that must be you

Unlucky and 13

Pity


You could use the knowledge

[diplomats]

8. I just did that, too

Nothing new here.

[Wonk]

14. Some hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest...

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html
I wish that X were false, therefore X is false.

[KC21304]

23. Welcome to the world of Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

Here is what that nice Mr. Hyde posted earlier.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=363767

[cmd]

2. Defeat GWB

Keep your eye on the prize.

[seventhson]

5. I agree

but the prizes do NOT go to thise who poisoned prisoner-refugees.

It makes my stomach turn.

[Bertrand]

4. Could you please validate the info

outside of the op-ed of an opponent?

[wyldwolf]

7. Nope, he can't!

[disgruntella]

9. Oh, here's the validation

As posted in one of the locked LBN threads by seventhson:
"The revealing of this story is really really scary. I know, I worked as a lawyer on the Haitian refugewe situation."

seventhson WAS THERE. End of story.

(edit: I said I'd stay out of GD but I could NOT resist)

[wyldwolf]

13. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Blue_Chill]

18. I know how you feel buddy

:D

[Blue_Chill]

15. End of story? Please not even close.

The story mentions documents uncovered but fails to provide them, it mentions a spanish pilots accusation but fails to provide any verifiable proof.

and I have no reason to believe seventhson is credible.

[Bertrand]

21. no offense to seventhson

but i would prefer an argument not based on an appeal to authority.

[Blue_Chill]

6. Where are the sources listed?

You mention "and the sources appear to be impeccable" yet I don't see any sources.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

10. No valid sources? what else is new.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mobuto]

71. Um

This nefarious Clark caused Haitian men to grow breasts, deliberately targeted elementary school basketball courts, and dropped sterilization drugs on Yugoslavia?

You believe this?

[seventhson]

75. yes

nt


why?

[Dr Fate]

11. Replace "Clark" with "Bush" and you might have somthing...

...If Clark is a war criminal, then the pugs should bring it up...

[Eloriel]

41. Not until after he's on the ticket

That would be the Rove way.

Eloriel

[KaraokeKarlton]

12. You shouldn't trust counterpunch

I'm not saying that there might not be skeletons in Clark's closet, but I read the crap they wrote about Dean. I live in Vermont and the stuff they wrote about him was spun so damn bad it doesn't even resemble the truth. Put forth some effort and look for other sources of information and see if you can find the other side of the story, too. Counterpunch have shown themselves to exaggerate, twist and misconstrue things very, very badly. Just some friendly advice.

[seventhson]

72. Compared to Clark. Dean is a fucking SAINT

Clark is pure Military Industrial Strength MADISON AVENUE FASCIST.

Anyone who even entertains dancing with him is a lost soul.

But that is between you and your creator.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemDogs]

22. Completely unfair, Forkboy

Disagree with the article, if you have things to dispute. This issue has floated around for some time. The rumor and the article may be wrong; I don't know. You are wrong, I do know.

[Forkboy]

44. I'm sorry

but he's completely mad you see.Quite quite insane.

But you're right...consider me :spank:

[seventhson]

77. Yeah - a political poster whose favorite icon is someone getting spanked

bite me

[CatWoman]

25. bwahahahahaha

this thread is TOO funny :D

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imax2268]

19. I remember my first beer...!

[_NorCal_D_]

20. Interesting,

but it has the feel of RW spin.
:eyes:

:tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:

[Skittles]

27. that's exactly what I think

straight out of the Rove book of spin

[bluestateguy]

24. Sheer bigotry

Some people seem to believe that being an officer in the military automatically makes one a "war criminal". The evidence you provide is flimsy and weak.

[tjdee]

26. Mitchel Cohen is a GREEN PARTY MEMBER.

On edit:
I don't really like how I capped Green Party Member as if it were terrible horrible rotten. Just trying to call attention to it...


Mitchel Cohen is editor of Green Politix, the national newspaper of the Greens/Green Party USA. He ran as a write in for NYC mayor (on edit, I'm slightly incorrect here, seems he was only a write in for the Green PRIMARY), and espouses such niceties as "Voting for a Democrat or Republican is like choosing between syphilis and gonnorrhea."
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-nyc/2001-September/003029.html

Sorry, he's not the most objective voice. Obviously, the far left is not enamored with Clark's being a general, and even on DU we've seen that just being in the military is enough to make him a mass murderer/war criminal/insert killer synonym here. This is not a surprise.

[bicentennial_baby]

28. Whoomp

there it is!

[_NorCal_D_]

31. Good ol

greens at it again eh?
Looks like they want election 2000 redux.

[janekat]

35. He even ran for mayor of NY as a Green n/t

[_NorCal_D_]

45. Don't get

me wrong. I have no objection to Green party ideology, it's just that sometimes I feel that they are divisive merely for the sake of being divisive.

This is a perfect example.
:bounce:

[Forkboy]

48. Ouch

I could easily be taken for a Green sympathizer (because I am a Green sympathizer) but even that is a bit much for my tastes.

[OKNancy]

52. I thought he was a Marxist-Leninist

He writes for a bunch of the Marxist sites. He's also one of the free Mumia crowd, and very anti-Israel

[dfong63]

86. what does the author's party affiliation have to do with

... the facts in the article?

[sistersofmercy]

29. Yes, the Clarkies are vigilant!

[Avalon Sparks]

30. I effing knew it~

I knew that the Neo-Cons would try to smear Clark with this ASAP.

The fact I think is, you can't be a leader in the military for 30 plus years and not have some "controversy" around some action or non-action you took~ I would say it's impossible.

If Dems are gonna fall for this smear campaign like some some sheeple fell for the "Gore Lies" bullshit, we are gonna screw ourselves.

IMHO - Wesley Clark is our best chance of beating Bush.

The NEOCONS are going to go into hyper overdrive with bashing, smearing and tearing him down - we have got to fight their bullshit with EVERYTHING we have.

[Dr Fate]

32. Rove type spin/fake leaks?

Or even plain made up?- I'm not familiar with the source- I'd like to see more on this before I take it as gospel...

[IndianaGreen]

33. I would have relied on The Independent as a source over Counterpunch

The Counterpunch piece is a typical character assassination which does little to advance the truth, or to air the issues.

I would have relied on The Independent as a source over Counterpunch, and I believe Robert Fisk has an article out today about depleted uranium munitions and their use in the Balkan war (keep in mind the uS has been using DU munitions since the Gulf War in 1991).

Here is Rupert Cornwell's take on Wes Clark's candidacy:

'Dream candidate' Wesley Clark sets out for White House
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
18 September 2003

But General Clark's sales pitch is founded upon his ascent to the top of the military ladder. And those years in uniform contain clues that his presidential bid is as likely to implode as to carry him to his party's nomination and the presidency itself. No one doubts the Clark intellect. The Clark judgement is another matter.

Take Kosovo, the 11-week war, fought exclusively from the air, without a single Nato casualty. The former supreme commander now holds up the campaign against Slobodan Milosevic as a model of modern conflict, a war fought by the US at the head of a multilateral alliance - not as the superpower that launched an unprovoked, almost unilateral war against Iraq. General Clark claims his political skills played a large part in holding together that 19-nation alliance.

Kosovo also casts him in a less flattering light. There was the episode, well remembered in Britain, which pitted him against General Sir Michael Jackson, commander of Nato's K-For. "Sir, I'm not starting World War Three for you," General Jackson replied when ordered by General Clark to prevent a Russian force from occupying the airport at Pristina. General Clark took the refusal to the most senior military commanders in London and Washington, but was overruled in both capitals. Precisely what happened is not clear. But the episode hardly reinforces the image of the cool commander-in-chief with the super-safe pair of hands.

Nor were his people skills that dazzling. General Clark might have held Nato in line, but not his own bosses at the Pentagon. William Cohen, Defence Secretary at the time, could not stand General Clark and his perceived love of the limelight. "Get your f*** face off TV," Mr Cohen is said to have ordered him at one point. Even more irksome was his habit of bypassing the Pentagon in using backchannels to the White House. General Clark's relations are warm with Mr Clinton, who urged him to join the 2004 race. But in 2000 they were not enough to prevent the Defence Secretary and his other enemies at the Pentagon from removing him from his Nato command three months early, in effect sacking him.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=444430

[janekat]

34. Guy who wrote article that is a Naderite.....

Nice to see they're working hard again this time around to defeat the Dems again....

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-nyc/2001-September/003029.html

"Mitchel Cohen is editor of Green Politix, the national newspaper of the Greens/Green Party USA."

They've all endorsed Mitchel Cohen, who is running a WRITE-IN campaign for Mayor of New York City on the Green Party ballot.
Enrolled Greens: Please WRITE-IN "Mitchel Cohen" for mayor on your paper ballot, and fill-in the little box right next to the "write-in" area.

[NNN0LHI]

53. Whodathunk? n/t

[Prodemsouth]

36. Consider the source, Counterpunch is never going to have anything good

to say about a Democrat who can win. Editor admits to being an antiSemite. One lousy mag, put out by a gang of Defeatist elitist.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IranianDemocrat]

38. Seventhson post = not worthy of reply.

eom

[Wonk]

42. Yet you continue to do so anyway.... why's that? nt

[Booberdawg]

39. Another ration of bullshit from seventhson

The author of this newest tripe from you, Mitchel Cohen, is the co-editor of Green Politix, the national newspaper of the Greens/Green Party USA

[Styles]

40. Out of curiousity.....

Why is it that Clark was a respected war hero... by both parties, Democrat and Republican with a reasonably clean history... up until the point that he decided to run for the Democratic vote?

And aren't repugs known for revisionist history?

Hmm........ something smells repug'nant....

[fedupwithbush]

Is this Democratic Underground?

or demo-rat underground? I'm blown away by the low blows I've read on here recently. I was always impressed at the links and proof people could provide on their posts here. But this one stinks to high heaven. Anonymous sources, nameless pilots, an internet site that's not exactly yahoo news. Am I at DU or a fake site put up by Republicans?

But even worse, are you only for your guy or if "God Forbid" someone else gets nominated, would you vote for them or Bush?

I loved what Clinton said at the Harkin Steak Fry. Don't have the quote but something like "Fall in love until the nomination, then please fall in line."

These vicious attacks are scary. I hope there aren't many like you. If there are, Bush wins. And with friends like you, who needs enemies?

[Booberdawg]

61. Unfortunately this has become a far to common practice for seventhson

Always uses dubious sources and reasoning and draws conclusions out of whole cloth.

Welcome to DU, BTW! :hi:

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

46. Kerry did vote for the war in Iraq, didn't he?

Doesn't that put him on a par with Bush as far as war crimes go? I think so!

[KC21304]

59. Could you please tell me the difference between Kerry's and

Clark's stand on Iraq ? I know Clark did not vote for it because he didn't have the opportunity. But from everything I have heard him say I think their positions are the same.


Kerry/Clark

[IndianaGreen]

64. Kerry is a Bush enabler on the Iraq war

Kerry's hands are drenched with the blood of innocents!

Kerry was also a willing propagandist for the neocons that wanted this war as illustrated in the following article:

Published on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
Kerry’s Deceptions on Iraq Threaten His Presidential Hopes
by Stephen Zunes

categorically stated that Saddam Hussein was “attempting to develop nuclear weapons.” However, there appears to be no evidence to suggest that Iraq had had an active nuclear program for at least eight to ten years prior to the U.S. invasion. Indeed, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported in 1998 and subsequently that Iraq's nuclear program appeared to have been completely dismantled.

To justify his claims of an Iraqi nuclear threat, Senator Kerry claimed that “all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons.” The reality, of course, was that much of the U.S. intelligence community was highly skeptical of claims that Iraq was attempting to acquire nuclear materials.

Indeed, despite unfettered access by IAEA inspectors to possible Iraqi nuclear facilities between this past November and March and exhaustive searching by U.S. occupation forces since then, no trace has been found of the ongoing Iraqi nuclear program that Senator Kerry claimed existed last fall.

In addition, Senator Kerry stated unequivocally that “Iraq has chemical and biological weapons.” He even claimed that most elements of Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons programs “are larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf War.” He did not try to explain how this could be possible, given the limited shelf life of such chemical and biological agents and the strict embargo against imports of any additional banned materials that had been in place since 1990.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0826-03.htm

If Kerry was deceived by Bush, then he is too stupid and gullible to be President. I suggest that the answer is that Kerry shares the same neocon value system as another well known Yalesman and Skull & Bones pal: George W. Bush.

[KC21304]

74. I believe if you review Clark's answers in interviews before the war

he also said that Iraq did have WMDs. Is it possible they both really did believe it because of the intelligence they were given ?

I'm very disappointed in your reference to Skull and Bones. If you really believe that Kerry is the type of person who would let that silliness influence something so important, then I guess there would be no use for us to further discuss his candidacy.

I have always said I will support any Democrat.

[IndianaGreen]

79. Kerry was serving in the Senate

Kerry had a duty to find out if the intelligence he was been fed stood to scrutnity. In addition to all that, Kerry must have been blind and deaf to have not noticed the British press debunking the WMD allegations as fast as they were being made, and the millions of people from around the world that demonstrated against the rush to war.

While Clark can get a pass for just having jumped into the Presidential race, Kerry has no such excuses!

[Sinistrous]

47. Just one of the inaccuracies in this piece:

The officer in charge of the refugee camp? None other than Gen. Wesley Clark, chief of operations at the US Navy internment camp at Guantanamo, and later head of NATO forces bombing Yugoslavia.

Fact: Gen. Clark was never the officer in charge of the refugee camp at the US Naval Base at Guantanamo. The closest he came was as CINC Southcom for a brief time in 1996 - 1997.
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/1998/spring/art4-sp8.htm

The fact that Guantanamo is a Navy base and Gen. Clark was an Army officer should have given any reader pause about the truth of that statement in the article.

[disgruntella]

50. Thank you SO much

I thought the "Naval Base" reference was weird. I tried doing a google associating Clark with Guantanamo and got nothing except the Counterpunch article echoing in a few chambers. I appreciate the fact (with a CITED SOURCE, heavens to betsy)

[Blue_Chill]

54. Thank you, the first source I've seen in this thread

and it points to the fact that this op-ed piece is BS.

[democracyindanger]

58. More

According to Clark's bio (http://www.nato.int/cv/saceur/clark.htm), he spent the majority of the 80's and 90's in training and strategic policy assignments.

According to this (http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/jfq_pubs/1220.pdf ) Clark's involvement with Haiti was working "with the U.S. interagency community, President Aristide, and the United Nations on measures to build the political and economic structures needed to ensure long-term progress and stability in Haiti." (p.63) IN Haiti. Not Guantanamo.

Also, a search at the Center for Constitutional Rights website generates nothing for Clark or Haiti. Maybe it's a different site. Or maybe he just made it up. Bets?

[KC21304]

67. Oh that can't be.

Absolutely every last vicious, disgusting screed Seventhson posted over and over and over again about Kerry always checked out to be infallible. And if you don't believe me, just wait until his book comes out. LOL

[janekat]

49. Some MORE stuff on the author...

This guy has written some WEIRD stuff. Doesn't really sound like a REAL Journalist.

http://www.nospray.org/SecExper.html
The U.S. Government's Secret Experimentation with Biological and Chemical Warfare
by Mitchel Cohen

Part One

The integrated federal, state and local response to the “health situation” in New York City brought on, supposedly, by infected mosquitoes smacks more and more of a military operation, at least insofar as the manner in which the mass-spraying of dangerous insecticides on the entire population
and environment has taken place.


http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2002w41/msg00057.htm
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/leninist-international/1999-August/004703.html

http://www.iacenter.org/kissinger.htm

I thank Paul at globalcircle.net for digging up the information about the email threats to myself and other activists. And I want here to uphold the good name of Sami Mashney, Palestinian activist whose name had been forged on the emails by, apparently, Israeli hackers.

- Mitchel

[lcordero]

51. There is too much controversy surrounding him

I want somebody that would be able to hand over * & friends over to Hague without having to think twice.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the military(I'm a part-time soldier), I just want somebody that won't let * & company get off scott-free.

[Blue_Chill]

55. Why do you think that is so?

This controversy shows you exactly who the Bush team is worried enough about to attack.

[stanwyck]

56. Sorry. Not up to our standards

There are lots of bizarro websites out there. Lots of conspiracy theories and totally fabricated stories. Let's try to have some dignity and respect for each other and not post whatever sludge we uncover. This is a waste of everyone's time.

[OKNancy]

63. LOL - It's Seventhseal

he always does stuff like this

[maha]

57. I expected this.

I figured some parts of "the left" would recoil from a soldier-politician, no matter what his record.

[sangha]

60. It's just a matter of time

before seventhson starts a culture war

[moondust]

62. He's just starved for attention.

At Smirking Chimp I've seen him get pissed off and demand that somebody start discussing his topic!

[skewthat]

65. I'm a hardcore lefty but I'll be honest this stuff is trite.

I don't support Clark and I can still see this stoopid.

[iangb]

66. Rove says "Thankyou very much......

....the cheques in the mail".

[Woodstock]

68. I thought we were here trying to defeat Bush

not the Democratic Party.

[mobuto]

69. Highly Amusing

The General caused Haitian men to grow breasts, deliberately bombed elementary school playgrounds, and dropped nerve gas and sterilization drugs on Yugoslavia.

People believe this?

[GregW]

73. Ooo Ooo - lemme guess!

He's Skull & Bones too, eh?

<<CLICK - IGNORE>>

[neverforget]

82. No, but he did crucify Jesus and was on the Grassy Knoll

:eyes:

[OneBlueSky]

76. hey . . . read it in his own words . . .

I was getting excited about Clark until I read this article he wrote a mere five months ago . . . now I can't figure out which of his two faces to pay attention to . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=11938

[iangb]

85. Is that where he says....

...<snip>The United States has the opportunity to use the power of the international institutions it established to triumph over terrorists who threaten not just the United States, but the world. What a tragedy it will be if we walk away from our own efforts, and from 60 years of post-World War II experience, to tackle the problem of terror without using fully the instruments of international law and persuasion that we ourselves created. .....?

....more http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0209.clark.html

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andy_Stephenson]

81. Why is he called the

Perfumed Prince?

[5thGenDemocrat]

83. As far as I've read the references

He's called "The Perfumed Prince" by David "Alley Oop" Hackworth.
While Hack is a man of unquestioned courage and a personal favorite of mine, he is also a warrior while Clark served just seven years (plenty enough for me) as a combat commander. So what? Eisenhower served even less. The rest of Clark's career, umlike Colonel Hackworth's, was in staff, educational or diplomatic postions.
I would argue that there is room is geopolitics for both the carrot (diplomacy) and the stick (combat). Maybe David Hackworth and his ilk don't like that, but we don't pay our military for their personal opinions.
Yes, we need Hacks. Yes, we need Clarks even more. I don't care if seventhson or David Hackworth don't like it, I'll unreservedly vote for Clark if he is my candidate -- if only to piss them off.
John
Too stupid to know better.

[Oilwellian]

84. Dayum....

I feel so much better after you said all of that. :D

[homelandpunk]

80. YAWN. Hardly a "School of the Americas" past...

Get over the fact that some Serbs died because they continued to embrace 1000 year old religous grudges and allowed GENOCIDE free, unfettered reign, until CLARK, thanks to Clinton, stopped their fucking medieval atrocities. How would you of stopped those religously insane slavs? Bomb them with flowers? Are you even old enough to remember what was happening there, cause I'll be damned if you think you can defend Slobo and get away with it here. Are you Serbian, cuz I can't figure you out. There must be a nationalistic blind spot for you, to imagine continued genocide was preferable.
As far as the titties thing, hey, Kozmo invented the "bro" so what is the problem?

[Democat]

87. Rove has a DU account?

Who knew?