Holy SH*T--How Do You Stop Dean?

[einsteins stein]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/09/17/clark/index_np.html

An article on Salon (ya gotta subscribe to it, and I don't...) talks on how Clark may be the "new" Dean. The article compares the two, contrasting Clark's foreign policy experience to Dean's, which I thought was a little interesting, but nothing I haven't already heard.

The real juice in this article tells of how the Dem "elites" are not comfortable with Dean. Yeah, I bet! And just who are these "elite" Dems? Here's what the article says

"There are non-trivial number of people in the party who say,Holy shit, how do you stop Dean? He's raised over $10 million in this quarter, and he'll probably hit the $15 million mark. How do you do you slow it?'" says a former White House official who spoke on condition of anonymity and who is not associated with any of the campaigns. "I think the traditional party operatives are afraid of the Dean campaign and don't understand it."

Is that a former Clinton official? A former Bush1 or Bush2 official? The article doesn't say. Of course, in one sense, it doesn't matter what official spoke. Any former Whitehouse official would be biased against Dean, either over partisan lines, or because Arkansas native Clark jumped in the race.

Does anyone have access to the full story? I would like to know what other conclusions the author makes.

But that line, you have to love it:

"Holy Shit, How Do You Stop Dean?"

Sounds like the good Doc has his opponents nervous! The status quo never likes to see grass root organizations compete on a level playing field. Dean is riding a wave of populism and people power, and if I were a fat cat, I would be nervous too.

Bwa.Ha.Ha!

[IranianDemocrat]

1. How do you stop Dean?

You don't need to, the American people will because they don't want McGovern 2.

[CMT]

5. Another McGovern?? No

Dean is more like Jimmy Carter in 1976--taking the country by storm and setting the establishment on their asses.

[Ediacara]

9. yep :-)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

64. No. Carter served in the Navy.

so there's one BIG difference right away.

[PAMod]

66. McGovern was an Army aviator, what's your point?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

67. why compare Dean to Carter?

what's the point of that? and it wasn't my choice to begin with.

[PAMod]

68. Why compare any current candidate with an historical one?

Read the whole thread. Spend some time in the DU archives. Log onto the DLC site.

It seems that the Stop Dean movement (started by the DLC) decided they could scare people away from Dean by comparing him to McGovern, who won only MA & DC in 1972.

The point is that the comparison is way off the mark and makes the people saying it look uninformed and desperate.

All we are saying in this little sidebar is if your going to compare Dean to a past Democratic nominee, might as well make a comparison that is at least somewhat accurate.

Another thing while I have a minute, has anyone in DU ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophesy? That's when you make a prediction (Dean will be McG. 2) then help to make it so by the act of predicting it. The Republicans have been calling Democratic presidential candidates McGovern 2 for as long as I can remember - imagine their glee when we do it for them.

You see, NewYorkerfromMass, statements like that, which have no credibility when uttered by Republicans, suddenly sound like truth to any fellow Democrats out there without the means or ability to flesh out the truth.

BTW, "John Kerry = Mike Dukakis" is also a stupid comparison, that has made the rounds, and I have spoken out against that one, too.

[PAMod]

63. Right on CMT

I'm sometimes embarrassed by the lack of historical knowledge that allows the comparison between Dean (or anyone in this race, really) and George McGovern.

I can't think of a single accurate parallel between them except that both were against a failing military action in progress. But even that similarity is different (?!) Dean is not a "dove" like McG.

In addition, Dean does not have to knock off an establishment GIANT like McG. did (beating back Humphrey did as much to torpedo McG. as any Nixon dirty tricks did.) Dean's vetting process for selecting a Veep will be much better than the bleary-eyed desperate search that McG. performed.

The Carter parallel is much closer. You have an "outsider" former Governor from a "small" state (Carter, Dean) taking the process by storm after an heir apparent candidate decides not to make the race (Kennedy, Gore). The outsider candidate is staking his chances on the early votes (Iowa & NH) to build momentum into the other primaries. You have a large field of underfunded establishment candidates all trying to knock off the upstart without establishing why they themselves should be nominated.

And the best comparison between '76 & '04 (drumroll please) is the GOP nominee is an unelected incumbent president.

[paulk]

74. Carter was not a successful president -

exactly because he was an outsider. I hope Dean makes a better president than Carter.

[stickdog]

16. Sure. They'll pick Eisenhower II instead!

And from deep within its bowels, he'll warn us about the dangers of the military/corporate/intelligence complex!

[liberalnurse]

17. It's okay to bash Dean

but you plea to all to stop bashing Clark.....

[LoZoccolo]

27. I'm not going to let you hijack this thread.

no response

[LoZoccolo]

29. Seriously though...

...I bring up problems that Clark is going to face, and I keep seeing a lot of denial.

[Room101]

38. Bush is just another Bush

Like father like son

[Classical_Liberal]

54. Dean is no McGovern

He will win this one.

[artr2]

83. Welcome to my ignore list, ASSHOLE

Bye Iranianasshole - tired of all of your fucking shit bye

[CMT]

2. my hunch is he will raise more like $20m this quarter

I believe that Gen. Clark's comments over the past two days especially today regarding "probably" voting for the Iraqi resolution will further fuel Dean's drive to the nomination.

[Cha]

6. Really! I'm glad Clark is coming out and telling it like it is!

Because I believe there is a Big Difference!

[Jim Sagle]

40. So THAT'S why you've been drumming up publicity for Clark!

You knew it would help Dean! :toast:

[newsguyatl]

20. i believe you're right CMT

dean's popularity is gonna SURGE due to this... and he's gonna raise a SHITLOAD through septemeber 30th now...


the truth has reared its ugly head...

[calimary]

39. I would certainly agree with that.

I like Clark. There's a lot there that I can live with. For awhile I was really wavering, and I knew quite a few things about him. But reading the latest stuff from the Washington Post and elsewhere, where he admits he woulda voted for the war does deflate my ardor a little.

For me, on the war, it STILL comes down to this: If I (out-of-the-Beltway, no-connections-to-anybody peon ME could determine through reading and research, a year ago, that the war in Iraq was wrong, WHY THE HELL couldn't Kerry and Edwards and Lieberman and Gephardt and all the other pols now running who all say they voted for the war, but... WHY couldn't they see it? They didn't. Either they allowed themselves to be suckered in by all the lies, like the majority of Americans were, even while meaning well (like when somebody like Gephardt mentions that "I voted for it but I tried to manipulate it so the UN was consulted first" or WHATEVER, or they thought they better go along or else they'd be slammed as unpatriotic. There was A LOT of that going around Washington, as you'll recall. Back when nearly every Dem had no spine. Precious few actually did stand up to the juggernaut and, admittedly, the lopsided polls (that TO THIS DAY still tempt some people to refer to the "popular wartime president") with any courage.

Further, it was just another sign of capitulating to this boorish miscreant, as they started doing FROM THE GET-GO, as soon as that first post-innaugural breakfast where bush declared that "it'd be a lot easier to govern if this was a dictatorship and I was the dictator." Even three years later, I am STILL floored that nobody reacted to that - AT ALL. Nobody batted an eyelash or got upset, or, hell, even made a stray remark about it. It was as though that statement had never even been made. But it burned into my memory the moment it slid off his lips, and I will NEVER forget it, ever ever ever ever. It's permanently tattooed on my mind, like Auschwitz to a Holocaust survivor. It's a remark I firmly believe NO AMERICAN should EVER forget. It was a watershed moment, and just about everybody slept through it. I bet more than a few people here at DU and elsewhere were not asleep, though, and were aghast. Me? I was screaming! And for these folks NOT to see it, not to react to it, not to stand up to it, not to resist it, to just go along, it's just reprehensible.

I dunno about Clark. As I said, there's a lot about him I can live with. And thinking "strategery," it might present a great tactical advantage. Certainly as Dean's VP. And I recall him voicing hesitation about the war before it broke out, and certainly he's been against it since. But jumping on the bandwagon and writing about how to secure this great victory, uh, er, um, well,

Let's just say, I'm sticking with Howard Dean.

[jumptheshadow]

61. That's the second great post of yours I've read today

The Senators voted for the resolution because they were reading the polls. They might have been genuinely unsure about WMD but they knew that Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terror. And they gave that arrogant S.O.B. Bush carte blanche to do anything he wanted anyway.

I like Clark, and I am convinced he would have made different decisions than the morally vacuous cabal. I am uncomfortable, however, with Clark's statements yesterday.

On a side note: I am a relative newcomer here and have been saddened by our fixation on trashing Democratic candidates. Your thoughtful posts lifted my spirits, however.

[Maple]

3. You can read it now

Check at the bottom....you just watch a brief ad, and get a day pass for free

[einsteins stein]

11. yep

thanks, found it. If it were a snake, I would have been done bit..:eyes:

[Cha]

4. Just go down and get a "Free Day Pass"! It's so Easy!@

:-)

[einsteins stein]

10. Free Passing it as we discuss...

thanks zidzi, and all :-)

[blm]

7. Laugh...but internal polling does not look good

for those downticket and THAT is why Democrats are not happy. They increase house and senate members with other candidates.

[stickdog]

18. Because Dean's been branded as an ultra-liberal.

And you, of all people, know that's not true.

So tell me, blm, does Dean's 66% favorable to 9% unfavorable rating hurt Dems in NH, where people are paying attention to the real candidates and not the Rovian blundocracy?

[blm]

76. Wait till the firefighters start campaigning AGAINST Dean in NH...

This race is just beginning.

btw...The firefighters have good reason to NOT like Dean. You might check out why.

[einsteins stein]

35. Give that time

as Dean increases his momentum, and begins winning primary after primary, his coat tails will grow, because pols will begin to remake themselves in his image.

and THAT is all good :-)

[PAMod]

65. Geez, blm it's September 2003!

I would hope that most Democrats in Washington aren't sweating over these polls now.

In a business where 24 hours = a lifetime, the polls they take today will be lining birdcages tomorrow.

[blm]

78. And no negative ads have run yet have they?

You know, the ones that expose some nagging details about a candidate that contradict the image that they are fostering?

[PAMod]

81. See the 2nd half of reply 68.

If Dean is the nominee, he'll be a great candidate - and the attacks all be coming from the real enemy.

[Demobrat]

8. And if they had any idea at all how many of us there are

who are not even close to our $2000 limits, who have given literally pocket change so far, and are willing to give much, much, more, they wouldn't just be nervous.

[sfecap]

12. Excellent point.

The big donors are not yet in the game.

But Dean is raising money easily. In NM a couple of weeks ago he picked up over $100,000 in one day.

This quarter (usually the slow quarter) Dean will stun the pundits with his numbers. I think he'll pass 15 million.

[Eloriel]

14. Hehe

So true.

Eloriel

[PAMod]

69. I think the reporting this quarter is going to BIG news

What a great historical moment - when common folk pony up to help take our country back.

Of course, the second tier candidates will all sneer and find something negative to try to exploit.

[Demobrat]

70. You mean sneer, find something negative to explot,

and then copy him.

[janx]

79. Yeah. And the power brokers will again scratch their heads

in Washington and wonder: "How could this happen?"

!!

[quinnox]

13. Dean is stopping himself

A series of flip-flops and backtracks and blunders, then Clark comes in to steal the spotlight. As for the fundraising, do you think if Dean reels in a huge money edge Kerry wouldn't open up his considerable wealth to compete? No, I am not talking about his wife's wealth, but his own. He is in to win, he won't let Dean have any advantage in money.

[einsteins stein]

15. Would you mind elaborating?

By detailing the list of Dean's so-called series of "flip-flops and backtracks and blunders"

Not just your thoughts, please, give us some links. Hard stuff.

[einsteins stein]

44. Come on, quinnox, in all fairness, respond!

By detailing the list of Dean's so-called series of "flip-flops and backtracks and blunders"

Please, give us some links!

[CWebster]

19. Clark's spotlight is starting to dim

as we speak

[CMT]

23. so far Dean is taking in lots of $$

without having to rely on a wife who has a big purse.

[stickdog]

25. Opening your wallet proves you are entrenched in the elitist oligarchy.

Getting 50,000 small donors to open their wallets proves you are mounting a record breaking campaign with an attractive, winning message.

[Demobrat]

32. Steal the spotlight?

More like give Dean a momentary break from the bashing. Which of course his campaign anticipated weeks ago.

[sfecap]

37. You might want to read up on the FEC laws.

Kerry cannot use his (vast) personal funds to fund his campaign.

Sorry. He actually has to go out and raise the money like the rest of the candidates.

[Jim Sagle]

42. Pfffffftttttttttt!!!!!!!!!

[Terwilliger]

21. I don't

I wait and see

[DEM FAN]

22. You Can't Stop Dean.. Your Only Hope Is To Contain Him.

:-)

[Clark Can WIN]

31. with a team of inspectors

from the UN. he he.

[gully]

73. And allow inspections...

*Dean supporter BTW...

[blm]

77. allow inspections of his sealed records?

.

[FubarFly]

24. You can't beat Dean by being Dean-lite.

Can't wait to hear that one in 2008.

:evilgrin:

[Fabio]

26. Any reasonable person would say that either....

a) Dean stops himself - not going to say it is going to happen, but it has happened to others in the past.

b) Another candidate gains serious momentum, runs an excellent campaign and beats Dean.

c) This race narrows, in terms of # of candidates, and Dean's base (or appeal) fails to expand as rapidly as his main competitors.

At some level, all three will happen. But will they be enough to derail Dean? Only time will tell...

I should be interesting though. I hope people on this board all collect our thoughts whenever the next Democrat takes oath for the White House, see what passionate people we are, and then focus collectively on the tough choices our nation has to make in the years ahead.

[KaraokeKarlton]

60. None of those will happen

Dean won't mess up. Even if he makes a mistake, he's brilliant at recovering quickly. If the comments on the Israeli/Palestinian issue didn't hurt him, nothing's going to. None of those who ran against him in Vermont could get anything to stick. If he didn't lose in 2000 with all the venom spewed at him, he's not going to lose this time. No one else is going to be able to catch up. The only way that could happen would be if Dean slowed down and let that happen, and he won't. He has boundless energy and is keeping a very rigorous and demanding pace. He won't get complacent and slow down. He wants to win and has set out to do so. He's going to keep everyone in his rearview and will continue to set the tone of the race. The more the field narrows and the stronger Dean gets, the more people are going to get on board. Once he announces breaking Clinton's fund raising record he set when he was running for re-election, you'll see a lot more people jump on board for that reason alone. He will be viewed as doing better than Clinton did...and no one can say Clinton couldn't win. There are no skeletons in Dean's closet, either. He's already running a general campaign and he already appeals to swing voters and people from all over the political board.

[einsteins stein]

28. I read the rest of the article, glad I didn't pay for it!

Everything I wanted to know was in the free section.

It's obvious that the insider is a former Clinton official, if not Clinton himself!

The thing I agree with the most from the entire body of that text, is that the Dem "elite" do not understand the Dean campaign, or appeal, as it were, because the Dean campaign is not about corporate interests, big union recommendations, or a list of 50 Senators who stand with Dean.

Dean is about you, and me, and people like us all over the country.

If Dean doesn't already have a campaign song, I would suggest "This Land Is Your Land" by Woody Guthrie. I think it sums up eveything I feel, everything that is right about the Dean campaign.

--------------------------------------

THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND

This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking a ribbon of highway
I saw above me an endless skyway
I saw below me a golden valley
This land was made for you and me

I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

The sun comes shining as I was strolling
The wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
The fog was lifting a voice come chanting
This land was made for you and me

--------------------------------------

Yep, I think the fog is lifting, America. This land will once again soon be our land, same as it ever was.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

59. I wrote a song for the campaign

To the tune of "Little Pink Houses" by John Cougar Mellencamp. You can check it out on my blog at http://deangrassroots.blogspot.com.

I am looking for someone to make an mp3 of it, if anyone here can sing. Or if anyone can play the song and record it on guitar so someone can have background music, that would be great too.

[Clark Can WIN]

30. You stop Dean with super duper

Health Maintenance Organization kryptonite! :nuke:

Sorry, thought it was funny. I'm just silly tired and typing off my sleeve.

[einsteins stein]

33. Would that be HMO Green, or HMO Red kryptonite?

maybe we need to get Dean a solid led lockbox.

Yikes! Did I just say "lockbox"...cringe :hurts:

[Clark Can WIN]

34. Talking heads fan?

same as it ever was?

[einsteins stein]

36. oh yes...

into the blue again, once in a life...

[sham]

41. Bring on Sept. 30!

Eventually, the self-defeating Dem establishment is going snap out of its zombie state and realize that everyday people in this country are PISSED, that we are mobilizing against Bush*, and more than anything, that we WANT to win and we WILL NOT lose. And then they will stop trying to "stop Dean" and join us in stopping Bush*.

[maggrwaggr]

43. Did Dean vote for Reagan? Did he vote for Nixon?

No, I didn't think so.

I don't think Clark is a real Democrat. I'm starting to smell an opportunist. I DID like him a great deal until I found out these little facts.

He also came out and said he "probably" would have voted for the IWR.

So ..... I flush my enthusiasm for Clark down the toilet.

Sorry!

[Eloriel]

46. I WISH he were an opportunist

My fear is that he's far worse than that. An opportunist is just an opportunist.

Eloriel

[Egnever]

58. I am deathly affraid

you might be right

[einsteins stein]

47. Are you saying that Clark voted for Reagan and Nixon?

Did I miss something?

[Mechatanketra]

48. Uh, yeah, you missed something.

Clark commented to the press recently that he "probably" voted for Nixon and Reagan, and that he didn't vote Democrat until Clinton.

[einsteins stein]

50. Holy shit, Batman.

Yeah, I missed that.

Damn, I need to process that, along with some thoughts I've been having about Clarks timing getting into the race.

[Clete]

45. The more they pick on him, the more I know I

will be working for him, sending him what money I can squeeze out of my budget and yes, eventually voting for him. The "elites" don't like outsiders upsetting their candy store.

[einsteins stein]

49. OK, Thread Switch Up - How DO you Stop Dean?

You're GW Bush, its mid campaign, Dean is the Dem candidate, ___ is the Dem VP.

Dean is screamin! He keeps bringing in money, and he spends it better than you do. Your re-elects are tanking, and your overalls are tumbling. One month ago, Dean jumped ahead of you in the polls. Now, for the first time, it looks like the Dems are about to break out into a double digit lead in the polls.

Now. How do YOU stop Howard Dean? (without causing a civil war?)

[RevolutionStartsNow]

51. Diebold

It's their only hope.

But the hard work of Bev Harris and many many others may preclude that as well.

[einsteins stein]

72. Vote Fraud, yes...

But vote fraud is generic.

What will they say, specific to Dean?

More importantly, how will we counter it?

[dfong63]

52. WHY are they trying to stop Dean?

[janx]

80. Apparently they think the decision doesn't belong to the people,

that it belongs to them instead. And they just cain't unnerstand it!

[artr2]

84. Haven't you heard? He's unelectable

nt

[UnapologeticLiberal]

53. How do they know how much he has raised?

Has the campaign released numbers already? I am dying to know how much he has raised...do they know for sure that it is over $10 million? If that is true I will be psyched!

Mousepads, Shoe Leather, and Hope - The Great Grassroots Campaign

[Classical_Liberal]

55. I like him specifically because he pisses the beltway crowd off

actually.

[ibegurpard]

56. If for no other reason

that one is as good as any.

[dean4america]

57. you think 15 mill freaks them out?

wait till he ends up with 20-25 this quarter. then they will really freak out.

[gasperc]

62. How do we stop Bush!!!!!!!!!

What fuckwads, Clark, Dean Kerry does it matter? Who'll have the fortitude to take the Bush backdoor attacks. Bush does not want to lose and will spend, lie, cheat, what ever Machivellin technique it'll take to win!

[einsteins stein]

71. Right, that is why I asked...

Hypothetical situation:

You're GW Bush, its mid campaign, Dean is the Dem candidate.

Dean is screamin! He keeps bringing in money, and he spends it better than you do. Your re-elects are tanking, and your overalls are tumbling. One month ago, Dean jumped ahead of you in the polls. Now, for the first time, it looks like the Dems are about to break out into a double digit lead in the polls.

Now. How do YOU stop Howard Dean?

This question could be asked about any candidate that the Dems put up, but since this thread is already about Dean, start there.

What kind of dirty trick will Bush use? How would he attack Dean's positions? What will he dig up on Dean's past? What kind of outrageous thing will they say, that we all already know about, but they will try to make it sound as if it casts Dean as the devil himself?

They ran this tactic against McCain, and it stopped him cold. They ran it against Gore, and there are still people, Dems even, who think Gore actually lost in 2000!

Let's prepare ourselves! What should we expect from Bush?

[Demobrat]

75. They'll find some woman willing to say

that Dean performed a partial birth abortion on her at seven and a half months. Oh, and that he left the head inside her.

[janx]

82. But I really want to know, once and for all, WHO these Dem "elites"

are! It can't just be From and what's-his-name, can it?

Who is doing this?