It has been irrefutably established that Clark is no classical liberal

[WilliamPitt]

He gave a speech at the School of the Americas. He said he 'probably' would have voted for the Gulf War. He used depleted uranium weapons in the Kosovo war. He's a career soldier from the Pentagon wing of government.

Right? Right.

Neither is Dean, who is a Second Amendment guy and is far more of a centrist than the press would have you believe.

Neither is Kerry, for reasons that have been beaten to death, resurrected, beaten to death again, resurrected, burned at the stake, and then beaten to death again.

Clark. Kerry. Dean. None of them will fit the prerequisite perfection mold for the liberal base of the party. Though much of the monkey-shouting here has been about people misrepresenting various facets of these fellows' records, or accurately representing them as the case may be, one thing is certain.

*putting on Rick Pitino mask*

Adlai Stevenson is not walking through that door. George McGovern is not walking through that door. Dennis Kucinich is trying to walk through that door, but sadly and maddeningly will not make it off the porch.

OK?

Clark. Kerry. Dean. I'd bet my laptop that one of these fellows will be our candidate after the shindig in Boston next summer. None of them, not any of them, fit the righteous liberal mode.

Face it. Sleep on it. Decide what you're going to do.

Decide wisely. Please.

[Terwilliger]

1. OK

now, just what is the Democratic party?

[WilliamPitt]

3. A mess, apparently

And also the protection of Social Security, the protection of Medicare, the protection of a woman's right to choose, the defenders of the environment, the advocates of sane tax policy, the party that does not believe in obstruction, the party that says count all the votes.

I'd say all three of the fellows listed meet that criterion.

[Terwilliger]

45. So, it's ok if we're liberal amongst ourselves

but not among the rest of the world?

[WilliamPitt]

47. What good is being liberal amongst ourselves

if it only stays here?

[Terwilliger]

61. ahh ok...

so, is it ok to achieve that through force? Can you bring democracy to the world by non-democratic means?

It seems like the military just needed more wars after the Commie threat was done. I think its time to turn our swords to ploughshares.

[WilliamPitt]

69. How does that answer my question?

[Terwilliger]

71. did you answer mine?

my original question?

Are we on a path to global economic domination/assimilation? Will we use force to make it happen?

Should we forego a fucked-up foreign policy because the Pukes have usurped the military?

What the fuck are Democrats? What exactly do they believe in?

[CentristDemocrat]

97. Why are you even here?

It's obvious you're a Green/Socialist.

[Terwilliger]

98. obvious that you're not a liberal

[Terwilliger]

99. I guess not

some people have to answer questions, while others...

[Ohio Dem]

11. To the left of the Republican party.

But not by much. There are centrists in both parties. There are noncentrists in both parties.

The Democratic party is mostly centrists. DU doesn't accurately reflect the Democratic Party. I hate to break that to you, but it's true. Most union members, blue collar workers all, are a helluva lot more conservative than we here at DU are. And they're Democrats, by and large. That's just one example. We need these people. And Will is right in his choice of the three for this very reason.

[Terwilliger]

58. We'd better edumacate the stupid

so they don't forget that they're building the trucks that ferry the cannons that wipe people out

[ModerateMiddle]

95. "DU doesn't accurately reflect the Democratic Party"

What I might say is that the very vocal majority at DU doesn't reflect the Democratic Party.

I might be willing to say that a majority of the folks who signed up for DU, but don't jump into the fray, DO represent the Democratic Party.

I would also guess that DU is not a very good advertisement for the Democratic Party.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

86. Why did you leave out frontrunner Gephardt?

Amazing how they always try to leave out the union guys!

[fizzana]

2. Neither was Bill Clinton

n/t

[grasswire]

8. this is how I see it

1. Neither Clark nor Dean is connected to the BFEE. I will support either one of them for that reason only. (I'm not too sure about Kerry, with that S&B background.)

2. Between Clark and Dean, I consider Clark to be the most electable. I'll put him over Dean for that reason.

3. We must remove any access to power for the BFEE. They must be driven out of Washington with as much humiliation as we can deliver.

4. Wes Clark says he will hold Bush accountable for his wrongs, including the taking of the world to war on false evidence. If he talks more like this, I will crawl on my knees through a field of shards to help him win.

[frank frankly]

4. good points

There are many reasons to support any of these candidates you mentioned, and reasons to be wary. Very well outlined here.

My criteria as a largely undecided Primary voter, is which one of these 3 will go after the BFEE most aggressively? Who will put these criminals in jail or at least try to put them in jail? Who has the vision to get a democratic election done in Iraq and end the occupation?

I hope the answers to these and other people's questions will be fleshed out in the months to come.

[CMT]

5. I agree

Dean has really never tried to label himself as a liberal imo. His stump speech always talks about balancing budgets and often even his stand on the guns. What he did such a great job of and was able to woo so many liberals by is more than his opposition to the war (as important as that was) but by publically and consistently taking on George W. Bush--often in harsh terms in a way liberals have been hoping someone in the Democratic party would do.

I don't underestimate one other candidate in the mix--John Edwards. He has been making his move lately and if he can secure a third place finish in Iowa and a win in South Carolina he might yet have legs.

[sugarcookie]

53. Yes, John Edwards

He has got my attention too. I'm not going to count him out just yet

[RandomKoolzip]

6. You are totally right as usual, Mr. Pitt.

Time to buck up and face the music. God, I wish Kucinich had a chance.

I believe Dean is still the one guy without too much of a maddening moral stain on him among the group. He is not perfect, but I'm still going to vote for him (or Kerrey/Clark) should he get the nod. It's still ABB at my house.

[Q]

7. Is 'face it' like 'move on'?

- I'd bet your laptop that it is.

- Would you marry someone after knowing them for only a couple of weeks? Isn't this what you're asking DUers to du? How can they make a 'decision' when there's still so much to know about the candidates? This isn't a horse race...the next election will decide the future of the country AND the party.

- You can count on a couple things: some kind of shit is going to hit the fan before 2004....and the Bush* junta not easily giving up the power they've been able to wrestle from the legislative branch. The Neocons have been waiting and waiting for this type of power for decades. They're not going to let something like a silly election to get in their way.

- There's plenty of time to study the candidates before making a decision. I realize you're getting anxious for Christmas...but you can open your packages in due time.

[WilliamPitt]

9. Do you agree or disagree

that Clark or Kerry or Dean will eventually be the nominee?

If yes, do you further agree that this savaging and embittering will come back to bite us in the ass a few months down the line?

[5thGenDemocrat]

15. This ain't marriage, Q -- this is The Dating Game

Ask all the questions you want to and give additional points for glib answers if you wish. Fact is, we're going to have to go on The Big Date with one of them. Me? I'm going to vote D no matter who the candidate is, so I'm not losing sleep over it one way or the other. I just want Election Day to get here.
I don't vote for platitudes. I vote for Democrats.
John
That leaves me hanging as to Joe Lieberman -- but I'll even vote for him if I have to.

[kodi]

10. the next POTUS selects the next 2 to 4 on the SCOTUS

Sleep on that.

[angee_is_mad]

12. My heart is for Dean, but

my money is on Clark. He would get alot of moderate republicans to vote for him. That would only leave the rightwingers for Bush, because Bush would never get a substantial amount of minorities that would help him.
Okay, Clark would attract the independents(closet republicans) and moderate republicans. Scary thought!

[WilliamPitt]

14. Attracting independents and swing republicans

is how you win national elections.

Period.

[sfecap]

18. And of course...

Raising the money to mount the campaign also wins elections.

Clark has a lot of catching up to do. Dean will be the leader in fundraising. That is usually the guy who gets the nomination.

[ModerateMiddle]

96. "Dean will be the leader in fundraising"

No, Bush will be. Is being the leader in fundraising enough of a reason to elect someone?

[LeftCoast]

44. Will, normally I'd agree with you

But I think this Presidential election is going to be the most partisan in a generation or two. This one is about throwing red meat to the base (on the part of the R's and the D's).

[Rose Siding]

87. indies and swing

It seems that a strong universal issue shared by indies, swings and the current "classical" libs is the growing concern of corporate power over the govt. This splashes into both the war and the economic issues.

I'd look for success from a candidate who taps into *that*.

[CMT]

21. I don't underestimate Dean's ability to attract independents

He is leading among them according to ARG poll in NH by bigger margin than his lead over Kerry among Democrats. According to the Field Poll in California, he and Bush are neck and neck in the state among Independents. The only other democrat to do as well among Independents vs. Bush in that poll is Lieberman.

Dean is bringing lots of new people into the party.

[Fenris]

13. Very well put, William

I don't see why anyone expects Jesus Christ himself to walk through the door and proclaim Himself a candidate. He isn't coming.

I say, look at the candidates, and then look at what we're up against. Look at your alternative. One of the moderate Democrats. Or another 4 years of THIS shit.

If you cannot vote for one of them, then vote for whoever you want. Yes, it's a nice idea to vote for someone who embodies your hopes and ideals. But keep in mind that when you refuse to vote for the lesser of two "evils" you run the risk of getting the greater.

And I am not criticizing liberal Democrats (which I consider myself to be) or Greens. I'm simply trying to move past all of this Clark/Dean/Kerry-who's-more-liberal-and-who's-an-evil-moderate nonsense. It's nice that we can discuss the faults and virtues of our favorite candidates, but GD is becoming less of a discussion forum and more of an ad hominem boxing ring. Please, can we be civil about these things?

[Girlfriday]

17. The way I see it.....

...no classic liberal can beat shrub; like it or not, we have to run someone who can get on-the-fence cons and grab the independents.

[frank frankly]

19. also

I do think that Kerry or Clark or Dean would all make very good Presidents. And I am certain that any of them will soundly beat Bush (assuming the BBV is stopped).

It's tough when supporters of candidates are very aggressive or rude, but these are very out-of-control geopolitical times, and I think people here at DU were losing their minds (rightfully) in March. I personally am afraid of Trojan Horse candidates right now, which leads me to ask questions about them that I need answered. That doesn't mean I won't vote for them or volunteer or whatever it takes to end this illegal war and insane administration.

But, once again, I think any of these 3 would be at least as good as Clinton.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

16. Thanks Will

Great post!

:thumbsup:

DTH

[Nashyra]

20. Thank you Will

I will sleep better. These are not the dreams of the Dem base but it is what it is and at least it can be the end of the nightmare and the begining of the dream

[toddzilla]

25. i wouldn't vote for jesus anyway..

his father has some bad shit in his past.. :(

[RichM]

22. Question: since you know that DK is the only one who says the right

things, why don't you use your influence to encourage the radical notion that sometimes, voting for someone whose ideas are great, is the right thing to do? Why do you have to talk about "not making it off the porch?" That just helps solidify very conventionally-rooted defeatist attitudes about the best guy in the race (to the extent that ideas mean anything).

These are no ordinary times. Why do we have to settle for a "business as usual" candidate? You think DK is the best, yourself, in theory. Why aren't you willing to fight harder for what you really believe in, instead of making a nasty little calculation, that in effect moves you far to the right of where you really are?

You know the mechanisms that have combined to produce the ever-rightward lurch in the Democratic Party as a whole. You know that they begin, at the individual level, with surrender to the gods of pragmatism. Why do you so willingly give in to them?

[WilliamPitt]

26. I do, and I have

I have written about Dennis about truthout.

I ran a campaign fundraiser for Dennis on this very website that did quite well for the candidate.

But I put my heart in a box when it comes to campaigns. I know that my influence is minimal in the grand sceme, and I must bow to the realities. I go cold and pragmatic when the general election comes up, and have been all the more so with George in the office.

And I will sleep like a baby. Dennis is an amazing human, but he doesn't have the horses, and I can't give them to him. I wish it were different. I wish I were syndicated in 200 newspapers. I wish I were on TV and radio every day.

I'm not, and neither is anyone else who will stand and shout for Dennis.

[roguevalley]

79. I like them all but Lieberman.

That said, I will vote for whomever we choose and I hope we choose
the one who can kick Bush out. This isn't about radicals, mechanisms
or even honor anymore. Its about saving the world.

A person who doesn't see all the signs and facts and portents is doomed to end up on the curb again. I voted for Al Gore and he won. But he lost too. Clark or Dean and whomever won't be so shocked and
concerned with looking right if that happens again. They will go for
the juglar.

I want the killer candidate to get bush out. That is all that matters. That is all that counts. These men are liveable for me, their values are good, their ideas 100% better than dimwit. I will do
the pragmatic thing because the WORLD DEPENDS UPON IT. There is no time to be clever, heroic or cleave to an ideology that will mean defeat because unless we put the best most electable candidate out there, we ALL lose. We lose until the next three generations are dead and gone.

I have principles that I don't compromise and one of those is using my head to steer through the jungle. Any of these men, excluding Lieberman, will be the one to take us out of despair and danger. Anything less, any kind of posturing no matter how principled, any kind of moralizing even if its right will mean our doom and the doom of the world.

[maggrwaggr]

23. flame me, but Lieberman is looking more like a Democrat than Clar

Clark voted for Reagan? Nixon? Would have voted for IWR?

And he calls himself a Democrat?

I was pretty damned enthused about Clark, no joke, especially after seeing him on some talk shows really dishing it back to the rethugs, but looking at what the guy actually stands for and who he's voted for in the past, well GOOD GOD

How can he possibly call himself a Democrat? Unless he's pissed that the Repubs didn't want him to run against Bush so he's running against him anyway, as a Dem?

Sorry, I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but MY parade just got PISSED ON BIG TIME by Clark himself.

[Bertrand]

24. Clark doesnt claim to have been a dem all his life

he said that he became one in 92 through Clinton.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Do you have ANY IDEA how many Democrats voted Reagan?

Millions. That's why he won so decisively in 1984. Write off anyone who voted Reagan and you blow out millions of blue-collar Democrats over the age of 40. The term 'Reagan Democrats' wasn't something made up for TV.

P.S. The phenomenon of a 'Reagan Democrat' was a failure of the Democratic Party.

[frank frankly]

30. quick question, Will

What's your take on the strange WH reversal this week: (Saddam not linked to 9/11)?

Do you think they are preparing to dump Cheney?

Sorry to jump off-topic, but this move has me confused, although hopeful...

[WilliamPitt]

32. They're trapped and scrambling

Probably got the word that the media guys weren't going to soft-pedal this one anymore. That 70% belief poll from the WP was a wake-up call, and there has been pressure on this ever since.

The dump Cheney thing seems farfetched. There are plenty of ways to move Cheney out without having him go out and get caught in a lie that condemns the entire White House.

No, Cheney just fucked up, and Bush is protecting the boss.

[frank frankly]

35. thanks!

I was hoping otherwise.

I even bet someone $5 Cheney would be gone by the end of the year...I did get very good odds, though.

[WilliamPitt]

36. He might well be gone

He is not healthy, and he's done his bit. But this? No, this was a mistake, not a tactic.

[Julien Sorel]

60. A symptom of a problem of the Democratic Party, rather.

We're seeing another, here on DU, which sympton, thank God, is largely quarantined here.

Your post starter was excellent, by the way, and really laid it out well.

[KoKo]

88. Wes Clark also voted for Nixon.....he may have voted for Poppy I, too

According to NYT's interview......he was a Repug until he heard Clinton's speeches. :eyes: He had a magnificent conversion.

[xray s]

37. Man oh man...the NERVE of a Reagan voter to change his mind!

Imagine. The ability to grow intellectually!

BTW, Reagan was an FDR Democrat up until about '64, when he changed into a Republican because of Barry Goldwater. Let's see...did the Republicans tell him to get lost because of his past political affiliations, or did they welcome him with open arms?

To any former Reagan Democrats, Reagan Republicans, or other refugees from the Right out there lurking because you are disgusted by GWB and his insane policies, both foreign and domestic, and are rethinking your politics and are looking for a home...

WELCOME!

From a former Republican who made the switch back in '91...xray

[WilliamPitt]

38. Woop

There it is.

[Girlfriday]

46. Wait a minute...

Who is the Repugs numero uno of all time???? Reagan, right? Right. And don't they just love to point out to all and sundry at every opportunity that he was a screaming Liberal before he ran for gov as a Repug in CA. People change, don't worry so much.

:hug:

[Girlfriday]

50. Whoa...

....Who is the Repugs' numero uno of all time???? Reagan, right? Right. And don't they just love to point out to all and sundry at every opportunity that he was a screaming Liberal before he ran for gov as a Repug in CA. People change, don't worry so much.

:hug:

[roguevalley]

80. my brother is a dem and he voted for reagon.

my brother is a smart guy but sometimes he messes up. do I ignore
him for the rest of his life or is he allowed to change, grow and
become better? Smarter. I hope so. I would hate to think I could
mess up a few times and have no one stand by my side. Maybe its because I am old.

[sistersofmercy]

27. Why do you think Kerry not Gephardt?

[WilliamPitt]

29. Media coverage

Kerry has it, Gephardt doesn't. That may change after Iowa, but this is my read right now.

[sistersofmercy]

43. I'll agree with that but we haven't hit the midwest pool! Gephardt...

carries loads of respect in the midwest. I personally believe his calling Bush* a miserable failure sent Georgie running to address the nation (along with his conniving for 87 bil). Gephardt is diplomatic, he never comes down on someone like he has Bush*, tells me he's mighty ticked off on how our country is being lead.

[WilliamPitt]

49. I'll be happy to be wrong

:)

[sistersofmercy]

57. It's superficial but I just think Kerry appears so somber.

[VelmaD]

31. Dangit Will...you just have to...

go around waking people up from the happy dream that an honest to god liberal might show up and rescue us all. *sigh* I've been avoiding picking a candidate to support just because I couldn't bring myself to deal with the reality of what you posted quite yet. *humongous sigh*

Ok, ok. I know you're right. I don't have to sleep on it. Starting tomorrow I'm gonna start trying to figure out which one of those 3 I find the least objectionable and do my bit to get their happy ass elected.

I am officially getting off the pot.

I'm just so tired of always having to vote for and work for and support the lesser of all possible evils instead of someone I really believe in. Again, I know. That's politics and I accept it. But dammit I don't have to like it.

Thanks for the kick in the ass hon.

Darth Velma

[WilliamPitt]

34. Welcome

P.S. I've gotten your emails and PMs, but have been scrambling. Will reply tomorrow. :)

[VelmaD]

40. It's all good

You're a busy boy.

Sigh. This is the first time I've been in GD in a while. Actually glad I came in here for a change. Was hoping it would be the cure for insomnia but now I've got yet another thing to think about.

Somebody find the switch to turn off my brain. :-)

[KT2000]

33. Reality Check

Good points. And I think that deciding who is the best Democrat is ludicrous - but eternally entertaining.

But the fact is - the right wing media has spent the last 8 or so year defining the Democratic Party for the nation. It is a perverted definition to be sure - but some of it has sunk in with the public and colored the vote. We should not forget that the White House - Senate and House are all controlled by the GOP. Propaganda got most of them there.

One of the reasons I am supporting Clark is that the Democratic stereotypes the RW has been pushing for the last 8 years are blown away.
Its like Nixon going to China.
Besides that - I really do think he values the Constitution and free speech among other things.

[jonnyblitz]

39. pretty sad. n/t

[stickdog]

41. One is Al From's new DLC lover.

The second is a boring, elitist legislative insider whose is endorsed by 4 out of 5 boring, elitist legislative insiders.

The third is running the most successful and empowering national grassroots campaign in US history using an organic, iterative small donor/new activist paradigm that quite clearly has a very good chance of taking this country back from the corrupt corporate/fatcat oligarchy that has stolen it and moving the lion's share of political power to an informed, concerned, empowered and energized citizenry.

[WilliamPitt]

42. But if Dean is not the nominee

and the "DLC lover" or "boring" candidate is, what will you do?

[stickdog]

52. Sigh about the loss of a golden, perhaps once-in-a-lifetime

opportunity -- one that the great William Pitt, among many others I highly respect, somehow saw fit to turn his nose up at in order to endorse a safer, status quo, by the books, establishment candidate and campaign.

And, of course, work 24/7 to drag the kicking and screaming Bushistas from their stolen White House perch.

[mike_c]

48. although both are centrists, Clark will shatter the democratic party...

...while Dean might not. I think many in the liberal left, like me, will have a great deal of difficulty voting for a career militarist.

[WilliamPitt]

51. How exactly will Clark 'shatter' the Democratic Party?

He might shatter DU, but that's been happening anyway.

[frank frankly]

54. wouldn't you vote for him, though, against Bush?

Look, in many ways I am societal liberal and a personal libertarian...but I will support whoever wins the Primary. I don't see this shattering the party.

None of these candidates are going to match perfectly. But if Clinton is any kind of barometer, I think they are all at least as liberal as he was, and hopefully the grassroots surge that came about in reaction to BushCo will help keep any candidate more honest to the Democratic base.

[WilliamPitt]

55. And will blunt the predictable GOP attacks

That was Bill's biggest weakness. Too many progressives checked out, thinking that after 12 years of Reagan/Bush, everything was OK. No one had his back, and he got his ass kicked.

That won't happen this time.

[frank frankly]

56. It really is amazing to remember the impeachment now

I've learned a lot about geopolitics the last three years. The way Clinton was treated was so different than what Bush received...it's stunning. I'm still hoping that the cognitive dissonance will kick in to counter the incredible media programming most people still suffer under.

[Old and In the Way]

82. I wonder if the Impeachment would have happened if we had the

Internet network now in place? A MoveOn org that has been really effective in getting people to contact their legislators. A Blog network that'd brought the BS to light immediately?

If these's anything good that's happened in the past 3 years, it is the awakening of a vast LW giant that was quite docile in the 90s....thank the neo-cons and Bush for radicalizing us. I suspect that the pendulum is going to be swinging quite dramaticly over the next few years. As we gain momentum, we are going to take back the majority rule....then watch political dynamics and agenda change.

[Wednesdays]

92. It was precisely because of the Internet, that Clinton was saved

Moveon.org was organized specifically to defend Big Dawg...and IIRC, it was a huge success in motivating people. I believe that without it, the outcome may very well have been different, or Clinton may have escaped conviction by one vote (a la Andrew Johnson). As it turned out, there wasn't a snowball's chance of convicting Clinton.

[sistersofmercy]

59. School of Americas? If that's what I'm thinking it is, can't be good!

[einsteins stein]

62. Hey Will? The Only Way I'm NOT Voting For The Dem Candidate

Is if the Whistle-Assed, silver spooned, white-lined, born again frat boy of a squatter turned Democrat and won the nomination.

During the primaries, am as on-edge as I want to be, but when that November day rolls around, unless we nominate Bush himself, I wont look back. Dem, or nothing. Anyone but Bush.

I honestly don't think we'll get as much dissent on the left this time, and I pray thrice daily for a Perot, or a fascimille thereof, to split the right.

But, I feel it in my bones..

Who knows?
It's only just out of reach
Down the block, on a beach
Under a tree
I got a feeling there's a miracle due
Gonna come true
Coming to me
Could it be?
Yes it could
Something's coming
Something good
If I can wait...

[Generic Other]

63. On the jiacinto scale, I qualify as extreme left

What does he think of Clark, Kerry or Dean? Because ultimately, the Dems have to get my vote and jiacinto's and everyone in between to oust Bush.

I'm trying to be pragmatic. None of the candidates is Prince Charming. But neither are they Quasimodo.

And they all share our committment to getting Bush out of office. That makes them better than any of their GOP detractors.

Perhaps we need to make a pact among Dems not to attack anyone but Bush. Every candidate could still promote his or her qualifications, but we don't need our candidates to beat each other to a pulp before one steps in the ring with Bush. We need a united front.

Like I said, I could support any one of these men.

[proud patriot]

77. That's an excellent point

pm Carlos and ask him :hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

84. Carlos supports Dean, he said so months ago

!

[homelandpunk]

64. he gave a speech at the SOA...ok. I need more

than that to convince me he is the personifiction of that terrorist organization. Did he train any of the terrorists there?
If Gephardt were the nominee, you would say well, hold your nose and get Bush out. But with Clark, it seems that the anti-Clark crowd are saying they could not hold their nose...they would just sit out. Now THAT is some real hatred. And I don't get it. He can't be that fucking evil. He defeats Bush. That is a GUARANTEE. If anyone thinks the military is less of a threat to us with Dean in, that is fantasy. As far as i can tell, the military loves Bush more than Clark, so what does that tell you? Anyone want Bush the military fawns over, or Clark, whom the military would not fawn over?. The crazies in the military would be too willing to do Bush's bidding in a suspension of the constitution and Bill of Rights. Clark would have a hard time pulling that kind of shit...because the repubs would fight any extreme positions coming from a Dem, which would be good in that case. Hypocritical and partisan, but good.

[WilliamPitt]

65. It was a rah rah speech, typical for a commander

The accusation is on the same bullshit scale as the DU thing.

[Terwilliger]

67. oh, you're kidding

did he train any of the terrorists? OF COURSE HE DID! Do you think he's morally pure or something?

If he was there he supported their work. Period.

Thanks Wesley for Manuel Noriega! Long may he be drugged in prison so he can't talk about US foreign policy!

If anyone thinks the military is less of a threat to us with Dean in (is), that is fantasy.

OK, well there you go. Did you hear that proud patriot? Eloriel? Dean is more of a threat than the military! From a Clark supporter!

~/. Long Live The D L C ...

It's capitalism for you and me! ~/.

[phegger]

70. wait a minute...

If anyone thinks the military is less of a threat to us with Dean in, that is fantasy.

Dean is more of a threat than the military!


Er, I don't think that's what he said. See above.


-ph :smoke:

[Terwilliger]

74. you're right

[phegger]

75. Hey, it's late...

*

[Terwilliger]

78. yes

but what's *my* excuse? :evilgrin:

[roguevalley]

83. please for the sake of argument,

add links, quotes, facts.

Your comments are interesting but hard to evaluate because they are your statements without attribution. I am sort of amused about some of the comments here because, due to the nature of his JOB and the OATH Clark (and others in the military, unlike Bush) he was compelled by his orders and obligations to do/attend/speak at/go to many of the places mentioned in comments. The comments imply choice. Given the nature of work, choice is seldom an option. To blame Clark for Noriega is a slander without attribution and I'm tired of slander against Clark and ALL of the candidates. If you believe he created Noriega, which you imply, put the proof on the table.

[Terwilliger]

94. that's right...neither Republicans nor Democrats are involved in the SOTA

it's all black ops! secret, secret! hush hush! :eyes:

No, I don't have hard proof that Wesley Calrk personally trained Manuel Noriega. I didn't say I did. I said that if he was there, he supported what they do, and what they do is train South American dictators and thugs there (probably mujahadeen as well).

Whats not to understand?

Take your holier than thou attitude and ask yourself why Democrats have accepted Otto Reich and Elliot Abrams as Bush admin hacks. They've got blood on their hands, and Clark is part of that structure. To say he's some sort of maverick bent on righting the wrongs that the US has perpetrated on the world would be absolutely incorrect.

[roguevalley]

81. The military are no friends of bush, nor are their families.

given the choice between dimwit and a real soldier -if that is the main issue soldiers vote on ... war and military - something I don't believe is true, then Clark is a lock.

[phegger]

66. I have to admit...

...that I'm a bit taken aback by the "I would have voted for IWR" thing. (It doesn't change the fact that for me it's ABB.) I wonder how much of it is that he hasn't yet learned to navigate the media minefield. They'll jump on anything to generate some controversy.


-ph B-)

[WilliamPitt]

68. You missed the second half of the statement

"I now think Dean was right."

Or something pretty much directly to that effect. There's a GD thread about it here somewhere.

[phegger]

73. Well, this part did make me feel better...

Clark said that if he were in Congress, he would vote against Bush's request for $87 billion for operations and reconstruction in Iraq unless the president details a specific strategy to eventually withdraw U.S. troops. Clark said he wants more troops in Iraq, but was unsure who best can provide them -- the United States, Iraqis or other countries. . He would consider cutting defense spending if elected, he said.


-ph :smoke:

[WilliamPitt]

85. Yup

[MIMStigator]

72. Right you are.

Deanies and Clarkies better get their sh*t together. They sound like screeching,dare we say, Naderoids.

[frank frankly]

76. late night kick

for the night shift to enjoy...

[dave29]

89. If Dean Clark and Kerry are all electable

then this "unelectable" or "more electable" argument they have been using needs to go. This, more than anything else is what will hurt our chances in 2004. Any of these three could spank GWB and his corporate gang.

"Unelectable" should never be an argument we use against our own. Every time I hear it I see Karl Rove wringing his hands with glee, and that drives me nuts.

No matter how you feel about any of these guys, they have the juice. We should support the will of the people to choose the candidate and make damn sure he/she is as STRONG as possible.

[phillybri]

90. Kick

:kick:

[DealsGapRider]

91. "He's a career soldier from the Pentagon wing of government."

Is anyone who's a career soldier morally suspect in your eyes? I assume by "Pentagon wing of government" you mean the entire military... Can someone not be a liberal if they're in the military?

Please explain, as I can't help but get the impression that you think less of Clark because he's been a career soldier.

[WilliamPitt]

93. No no no

That's not my view, but my understanding of what a lot of people here have been saying. My dad was in the military, and is now the Chairman of the Alabama Dem Party. I'd be pretty dumb if I thought that.