Dean supporters... couple questions re: policy stances that worry me

[RichV]

This is not a flame or intended to start an argument. I have actual concerns about how a couple of Dean's policy stances will play out in the general election if he gets the nomination and I'm wondering what some Dean folks, or even Dean himself, can or has provided to account for them. If you're here to bash Dean, please do it in another thread.

I'd like to start with the assumption that the constant "liberal" label put on Dean by the media, the McGovern II rhetoric, and the "he'll lose 49 states" stuff will go away and not be an electoral liability. Whether that's the case remains to be seen.

So, how is he handling the issue of having signed the civil unions bill? I personally understand the benefits of this bill, but I think it will freak out parts of the country that we need in '04. My stepfather (midwesterner in his mid-50s) voted for Gore but talks about Dean as "The Gay Marriage Guy" and is turned off by that. I'm sure there are more folks out there like him. So how is Dean talking about this? I understand he says it's a state issue that the federal government should not involve itself in, but I'm not sure that's resonating with people predisposed or discriminatory enough to dislike the idea.

The other thing I'm curious about is how he plans to make his idea to roll back the Bush tax cuts look desirable to the American public. I understand he's been saying that money would reduce the deficit and/or pay for universal health care but I wonder whether that'll play or not given people's rabid dislike of tax hikes. Particularly when so many of us are struggling financially. I'm also curious why he offers that position given that I doubt any such proposal could ever get out of the House of Representatives, therefore making it little more than a rhetorical tool that may turn off more people than it attracts to his candidacy. At the moment we can't even count on the House to freeze the tax cuts for the top 1% temporarily to pay for the Iraq war, let alone repeal three years and $2-3 trillion worth of tax cuts. Seems to fly in the face of political reality.

Interestingly, I no longer see his opposition to the Iraq war as the potential problem it once was. Looks like Dean took a political gamble and won on that point, at least for the moment.

Apologies if the Dean supporters are sick to death of discussing these points. They're just the things that I fear will drive some people away from Dean and I wondered if you guys could provide me any comfort. FWIW, I haven't decided on any one candidate but at the moment see Clark, Dean, and Kerry as the most desirable and Clark and Kerry as the most electable. However, I'm certainly open to suggestions. I should also note that my primary vote probably won't count for much since it'll be in Missouri where Dick Gephardt should win easily if things remain as they are.

Thanks a lot. Everybody have a great Friday. B-)

[JNelson6563]

1. here you go

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights

Here is a page with an article and many links on the right hand side that address more particulars. Why not go right to the source for your info and then pass it on? That way you know it's accurate.

Julie

[RichV]

2. Cool

I'll go read over cereal.

[JNelson6563]

9. I always read

when I eat cereal too. :-)

I like the link because of all the subtopics it links too so you can get more detailed info. Hope it helped.

Julie

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. I find quite a lot to read on the cereal boxes themselves

like...where's Battle Creek, MI? :)

[JNelson6563]

21. If I could draw a mitten

here I'd show ya. :-) That's the beauty of living in Michigan is you always have a map of your state with you. haha

I live up by the pinky BTW.

Julie

[denverbill]

20. Maybe Dean should advertise on Wheaties:)n/t

[RevolutionStartsNow]

23. I had that same thought when I read this threadlet

(I just made that up, "threadlet: part of a thread that veers off on its own")

[Le Taz Hot]

3. I'll respond

and understand, part of this is merely opinion on my part.

Civil Unions Bill: I firmly believe that America is not as homophobic as it's made out to be. Non-'phobes consist of: gays, bisexuals, lesbian, transgender, families/friends of GBLT, most women, a generous portion of men, people that have no thought about the issue one way or the other and people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality but not expressly against it. 'Phobes consist of ultra right-wing fundie Christians and insecure males. Add up numbers of the two camps and you can see who wins this one.

The response is actually a VERY simple: It's a Civil Rights issue. Those who oppose it will (and should) be portrayed as anti-Civil Rights. We then remind the American people of which party fought the Civil Rights movement tooth and nail and which party joined the movement. This pResident* has divided us by race, religeon, sexual orientation, gender, etc. After 9/11 and probably future terrorist attacks on US soil, we need each other now more than ever. We can't afford a pResident* who divides us.

Tax Cuts: Again, the response is simple and he's been doing it on the campaign trail for some time now. He asks, "Do you want health care for your family, funding for education and special education, Social Security, Medicare, etc., or do you want a $300.00 tax cut? Follow it up with Americans making $200,000 or more recieved 50% of the tax cuts. Follow that up with the fact the Bush* took over with a surpluss, and in less than two years, has made it into the biggest deficit in history AND the bill just keeps going up.

Those are all points that, I believe, will appeal to the average American. They're common sense and straighforward. He's a straightforward talker and I think that's one important element that resonates with so many people. As he says, "You may not agree with my positions but you'll always know where I stand."

Hope this answers it for you.

[RichV]

4. Good reply

Thanks. :)

[Fabio]

24. I'd just add

that these are my thoughts about your initial point about the political liabilities of being for the repeal of the entire tax cut.

First off, let me say that I favor John Kerry, so I dont want there to be any allegiances questioning. I am upfront about it, but try not to be too subjective. Anyhow...

I honestly believe that the political ramifications of repealing the middle income tax cuts are significant. For your average american family with 2.1 kids, the additional tax relief amounts to about $2000. It is substantially less for single people. So it is real money to a large number of people. Not all, not necessarily most, but some significant number. Taking away that money, even with the other trade offs in value discussed above (like Healthcare and Education) will be a politically difficult sell -- because people have less faith in the ability of the government to execute than confidence of having cash in their own hand. Add to that the fact that other candidates (like Edwards and Kerry) have defensible solutions that address the same areas that those candidates who want to repeal the whole cut (again, health care and education) and it becomes a little worse.

The real difference here is this -- Governor Dean wants to fully balance the budget by the end of his first term -- an honorable goal that would in many ways add to the long term health of our country.

The others, like Clinton set out to do in 1992, are seeking to cut the deficit in half or slightly better. That's why Senator Kerry can hold onto the 40% of value that fell to the middle class during the last tax cut.

Given that I think balancing the budget in an uncertain economy is intrinsically tough (because we always loose tax revenue, increase the need for our social safety net and face an uncertain economy at the same time), I prefer an approach that supports consumerism, increases the quality of life (because of new healthcare, fully funded education, etc), and gets us on a clear path to fiscal sanity.
In short, the shortest path to a budget deficit is creating the appropriate atmosphere for the rapid expansion of our economy.


But let's be clear - Dean and Gephardt's philosophys are reasonable and defensible (though I think Dean's desire to balance the budget is a more pragmatic goal than Gephardt's desire for more big government programs.)

Was I at all clear here?

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. Neither will be a problem in the general, here's why...

On Civil Unions...Dean is absolutely brilliant on neutralizing this issue. Every reporter I've seen ask him about it to try to provide a "gotcha" has failed miserably and been immediately silenced by Dean. He has two great stories that will frame this issue for Americans in a way they will feel okay about. One is about an elderly veteran who was on the beaches of Normandy. He is gay. The other was one of the "Let's Roll" heroes on the 9/11 flight that was brought down in PA and probably saved hundreds of lives. That man was gay too. Dean simply says that if those patriotic American heroes are brave enough to make those kinds of sacrifices, surely they deserve the exact same protections and rights as the rest of us. There's just no arguing with that without looking like a total ass. Dean makes this about civil rights and equality, NOT about sexual preference. He also respects the fact that the church should not be told who they have to marry. Dean doesn't support "gay marriage", he supports "civil unions" or anything similar that grants equal rights to homosexuals while still protecting the autonomy of the church. Dean also ended up making his entire 2000 campaign about civil unions, dignity, tolerance and civil rights. It was very ugly, the worst I've ever seen. (I live in Vermont, by the way) There is nothing that can be said to Dean about this that he hasn't already had to argue/defend/talk about. He's prepared, ready and will have no problem in this area.

On the tax cuts...he frames this beautifully, too. He simply says voters have a choice...the tax cuts or full funding of special education, health insurance that can't be taken away, homeland security funded at a state level. He also reminds people that the reason their property taxes have skyrocketed is because of those tax cuts. States have had to find money to compensate for what Bush gave to Ken Lay and the boys in tax cuts and special favors...and now the middle class is actually paying MORE in taxes than they were before. He's right. Who would complain about giving up the average $400 refund check when it would buy better schools, roads, homeland security, insurance and less property taxes? You'd be hard pressed to find many who would opt for the cuts when you look at it this way.

For what it's worth...I am a swing voter, registered Independent, just like the voters both party looks to for victory in elections. I've met MANY people just like myself who make up Dean's base. It's not a "liberal base" anymore. Dean's campaign has changed that entirely. This election's base looks very much like the general election voters, moreso than ever before. This is why the idea that Dean is unelectable in the general is complete nonsense.

[LeahMira]

8. Well...

Dean simply says that if those patriotic American heroes are brave enough to make those kinds of sacrifices, surely they deserve the exact same protections and rights as the rest of us.

... but there are plenty of people who can agree with that statement and still have strong reservations about "marriage." It's about SEX, and there are still a whole lot of puritans out there.

He simply says voters have a choice...the tax cuts or full funding of special education, health insurance that can't be taken away, homeland security funded at a state level. He also reminds people that the reason their property taxes have skyrocketed is because of those tax cuts.

... and again, there are plenty of people who feel that privatization is the way to go... despite the fact that many who can't afford to pay for special education or health insurance will suffer. It's all wrapped up in that Calvinist thing that says if you're a good person you will be rewarded and if you aren't rewarded you must not be a good person. Go figure!

I do think that as people see their state taxes and their property taxes start going up... far in excess of any federal tax cut they might get... they will begin to grumble. Democrats have to hit hard on this issue. The obvious thing is for people to start blaming their state governments for the increases, and any Democrat has to make the link between the federal cutbacks and the higher state and local taxes.

I would think that the point could be made most easily in the states that are generally poorer and really need federal assistance to get by, and a lot of those states are in the south where there's also a lot of support for Bush. There's enough time left before the next election for all the states to feel the pinch and start to get restless, but the poorest states will feel it the most. We'll see if they feel more like it's trickling down on them or if they feel that someone is pissing down on them.

[RichV]

11. Alabama

is probably a good example of this. Massive cuts in social services happening now since their Republican governor's proposed tax hike failed. We'll see how they feel aboutit in a year, I guess.

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. I saw the Civil Unions fight first hand right here

About 70% of Vermonters opposed Civil Unions and people were really mad as hell at Dean. He signed the thing about 6 months before he had to run for re-election. That took balls of stell. He only had 6 months to win people over. Here's what happened...

The "take back Vermont" crowd joined up with Ruth Dwyer, the Republican running against Dean. National figures were trying to help her beat Dean and things go mighty ugly. Even the people who were initially offended by Civil Unions ended up being so disgusted with the hatred they were seeing that they realized that they were a lot more uncomfortable with the discrimination against gays than they were by civil unions or homosexuality. Just because we have quite a few extremely liberal people in Vermont doesn't mean the whole state is that way. In fact, the state is actually very conservative about money, guns and people are pretty opinionated and somewhat old fashioned. But we also have a somewhat "live and let live" mentality. Dean can win over the country on this issue not only because he handles the issue so brilliantly, but also because the hatred and discrimination is going to be exposed and it will really turn swing voters off big time, just like it did here. Just about everyone knows someone who is gay, and there really isn't the level of homophobia in the country that many think there is. A lot of people are a little uncomfortable with the idea, but don't have a strong opinion either way. The only people who are strongly opposed are the same people who are strongly opposed to abortion, so those votes are long since lost anyhow. Not only is this issue NOT going to hurt Dean, it might also help the gay community unlike anything we've ever seen before.

Dean is already talking about that connection between the tax cuts and rising taxes on a state level. That message is really resonating with people, too. A lot of Republicans I know have admitted to me that it wasn't a tax cut, but a tax shift and increase. These folks aren't impressed with Bush on this issue but they don't say much because they don't think their state will lower the taxes and that Dean will revoke their federal cuts and that they will pay more. If Dean can come up with something to address that concern he'll pull in even more Republicans than he already has. And he is doing that. It doesn't surprise me either, because there are many Republicans who aren't against social programs but fear tax and spend and anti-gun policy. Dean neutralizes both of those issues with his record. He will pull in some votes Bush is relying on. Dean is definitely our best hope of getting rid of Bush. It really astounds me when I hear some people on here are too blind to see that. Maybe it's because there are a lot of very liberal people on here and they assume that middle America sees things like they do. Fact is, middle America looks very much like me, which makes it very easy for me to see just how appealing Dean is to the average American.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

10. Dean may indeed be absolutely brilliant

but I don't think Rove will let Dean say anything in his smear ads. :shrug:

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Dean won't have to say anything in any smear ads

Rove is going to make the same dumb mistakes Dwyer made in 2000 here in Vermont. Any ad about Civil Unions is going to turn voters off so badly that they will support Dean for that reason alone. Dean will be running his own ads as well. Who else running has the same experience having to run against a very brutally ugly campaign? Dean is the only one with that experience AND he won! He's the best prepared and I KNOW he can overcome anything Rove pulls. I've seen him do that against worse than Rove will toss out.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. there are several faults with your arguement but the most glaring is

that Dean is the only one with experience running against very brutally ugly campaigns. I would say that collectively, they all have as much, if not more, and specifically Graham, having also been governor before he was Senator and from the largest state represented, has absolutely the most experience campaigning.
And of course to compare Vermont's electorate to the national population is a bit of a demographic stretch.
But you seem sure Dean is THE one so don't let me go and soil your rosy glasses.

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. You've got to be kidding! lol

Do some research on "Take Back Vermont". When the other candidates have to wear a bullet proof vest, get death threats, have their vehicle vandalized, gets spat on, called a child molestor, fag, gets harassing phone calls at home, then we'll talk about them having to run against a brutally nasty and ugly campaign. Sorry, but none of them have ANYTHING close to the experience Dean has in this area. Even Cynthia McKinney had an easier go of it. Oh, and Dean WON against all that shit, too. If that doesn't tell you anything about his staying power and tenacity, nothing does.

[JNelson6563]

22. no hate quite like Godly hate

Thankfully.

Julie

[Fabio]

25. Come on.

Dean may have run in some tough campaigns in vermont, but you cant have an objective frame of reference for him versus the other candidates. I mean, you said it yourself, you are from Vermont.

Another point, toughness in a campaign is not just about death threats and vehicles being vandalized. It's also about grasping the depth of issues, being intelligent about those issues, and, also, of course, the quality of the competition. No one on this board, not the most committed Kerryfan, Clarky or whatever, no one is going to take away the fact the Dean has run a great campaign thus far.

So let's just be fair to everyone, and say, they've probably all faced great challenges. And certainly the biggest test in all their political lives will be the next four or five months.

[Eloriel]

18. Superb post with superb info

All the more viable coming from a Vermonter.

Thanks!

Eloriel

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. You're welcome

You might want to check out the thread I just started with some information about "Take Back Vermont". I believe it's a pretty convincing compilation of information that shows that Dean has what it takes to defeat whatever Bush and Rove hurls at him. He's already beat far worse.

Oh, an you're welcome. Thanks for valuing my input from Vermont. Dean is a class act.

[RichV]

6. Thanks

So are you guys just counting on Dean getting a sufficient mandate in the general to get his tax plan passed? That's one issue I've never actually seen addressed anywhere. Seems to me like it wouldn't fly in Congress, whether the GOP maintains control or not.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful replies so far. :)

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. If anyone can get it passed, it will be Dean

He fared quite well in getting things passed here in Vermont. If necessary, he will not hesitate to play hardball with the lawmakers to get things done. He isn't one to be passive or take any crap. He's a very strong and capable leader...and very influential with others. His supporters are also going to be working very hard to get other Democrats elected to help Dean pass the things he wants to pass. Dean's campaign is changing things, and you're going to see massive Democratic gains in 2004 as a result.

[Le Taz Hot]

15. Keep in mind that the tax cuts

were/are not popular with most Americans. I think most people understand that if you have more going out than you have coming in you you need to either cut your spending or increase your income or a combination of both. If/when this comes up, and it will, regardless of who is president, enough people write/call in to their elected representatives, AND said representatives read the polls, enough of them MIGHT go along with discontinuing the tax cuts. I know those are big "ifs" but they're certainly in the realm of possibility.