Think about this possibility for a moment before anyone goes any further

[NNN0LHI]

Dean who I like has already said without hesitation that he would like very much to have Clark as his vice president. We also know that Dean and Clark have had meetings before Clark announced he was running. No matter who gets the nod the other one is going to throw their support behind the other, and may be on the same ticket together. So trying to destroy either of these candidates right now by using right wing talking points plays right into the Repugs hands. Don't fall for it. There is a damn good chance that you could be be pulling the lever for both of these guys on the same ticket next year. Bt tearing down either one of them right now could be also tearing down the other at the exact same time. Stop an think about it before falling for the crap. Because you may regret doing so when all is said and done.

Don

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. I agree

we need to support ALL of our Democratic candidates, stop the insults and PLEASE stop repeating the RW rhetoric. That's what they want. The more people repeat it the more likely others will believe it as truth.
It's the repuke way! Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat=TRUTH.

[Atlant]

39. Thank you both! (NT)

[sistersofmercy]

2. I couldn't agree more! I haven't fallen in line with any ...

of the candidates, I see good points with all of them. I have a few choice picks but I won't bash any of them.

[greyl]

3. Regret searching for the truth? I doubt it.

No matter how many authentically tough questions are asked before the nominee is decided, any Dem will be a much better choice than bush.

And btw, the tough questions shouldn't stop after the Dem wins the Presidential election either. We're advocates, not braindead cheerleaders, right?

[NNN0LHI]

5. Right wing talking points = truth? I have passed through the looking glass

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. :) Not to to me

in the eyes of the repukes, fence sitters and some more moderate Dems...NOT me and NOT any thinking Dem.. It's the way they work. They start a story and repeat it and repeat it and the people believe it. If the fence sitters keep hearing the RW spew lies about our Dem candidates enough times...they believe it. Look at what they did to Clinton. A lot of Dems turned on Clinton over a damn BJ. Look at the "Dean is not electable point". There's a lot of people on DU who are STILL asking that question..."Is Dean REALLY electable?" Of course he's electable. Karl Rove wants everyone to think he isn't. Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark looks like a pretty powerful ticket to me. Yesterday on C-Span someone, a repuke, called in to say he knew someone who worked with Clark and said Clark is a TYRANT! People hear that crap enough, they will think it's true. That's all I meant. :7 We need to keep in mind all of the GOOD points about the candidates to counter all of the rhetoric

[greyl]

27. No. It's stupid to classify tough questions as "right-wing" points.

Like I said, we aren't braindead cheerleaders here. Or at least I hope most of us aren't. That would be some lousy company to be in, imo.

If you want the atmosphere around here to mimick that of a door-to-door vacuum sales meeting/pep rally/brainwashing session, tough crap.

[NNN0LHI]

29. Its is even more stupid not to be able to recognize...

...and to fall for "right wing talking points" when they obviously are. Kind of sad too.

Don

[greyl]

33. fuckin A.

Brother, is it okay with you if people ask questions about people who say they want to represent Democrats for 4 years?

I'd rather not throw my vote away (in the primary) because some "politeness shield" hid info that is valuable to me as a voter who gives a shit about their vote.

It isn't Clark vs Bush yet, so resolve yourself to the criticisms - appreciate critical thinking.

Like I said before, I won't stop being critical after a Democrat wins either. It seems like you'd condemn post-Democratic-victory criticism as right-wing as well.
And that sounds like the right wing calling dissenters unpatriotic.

[bearfartinthewoods]

41. yup...welcome to AMWAY UNDERGROUND

tough questions not allowed.

[a_random_joel]

4. Personally I can't think of a stronger ticket

Than Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean. It's got everything you could ask for...

[Eloriel]

6. I'm not really sure what you mean

Are you talking about exploring their backgrounds, or "rightwing talking points" which aren't always true?

I haven't seen an "RW talking points on Clark." THe only "RW talking points I've seen on Dean run along the lines of "he's too liberal" or even "not electable" which also happen to be DNC/DLC talking points, now that I think about it.

Here's what we REALLY don't want: we don't want ANYone on the ticket for whom some really nasty (true) surprises can surface at that critical point. IOW: we have to get it all out and get it rebutted, neutralized, responded to, whatever, before the general election. Don't want any ammo left that Rove can use.

And the campaigns need to come to grips with that, as well as all their supporters.

Eloriel

[Atlant]

40. You're correct, BUT...

> Don't want any ammo left that Rove can use.
>
> And the campaigns need to come to grips with that, as well as all their supporters.

You're correct, and I don't think we're afraid of the truth, but we
don't need to foster the situation where the Dean supporters
simply despise the Clark supporters and the Clark supporters
simply despise the Dean supporters. Don is absolutely correct;
we may very well need to work together in the very-near future
so it would be a lot better if we can still stand to stand in the
same room with each other.

But a lot of the discussion here feels like it's aimed at fomenting
exactly the sort of animosity that would be later be fatal to a
Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket. And I can't help but think it's
deliberate.

Atlant

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. Candidate bashing on DU isn't going to hurt any candidates

You could spam DU all days long with right-wing propaganda, and the vast majority of Democratic and independent voters won't know and won't care. Sometimes I think he have an exaggerated sense of our importance over here - we're a tiny minority of the Democratic party.

After the primary, there won't be attacks on our nominee. Until then, all of the groups in the D party are scrapping for positions - think of it as toughening up, as pre-fight sparring. It just gets us in shape. I wouldn't worry about it.

[PAMod]

You are correct, of course

It is actually the candidates themselves bashing each other that plays into Rove's hands.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

22. absolutely, that's different

They shouldn't be trashing each other in public. Lieberman is by far the worst offender. His "Dean depression" was unforgivable. A lot of this is payback for Dean's "Bush lite" swipes from early in the campaign - he opened the Pandora's box.

Our candidate bashing threads are only taken seriously at DU, and nowhere else.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Bashing Dem candidates will not hurt Bush too much either

That is my point here.

Don

[bearfartinthewoods]

42. a primaryis supposed to be like the olympic tryouts

Feirce competition so as to feild the best champion.

[KoKo]

8. I'm now supposed to accept a man who voted for Nixon and Reagan and

although he didn't admit to it (probably voted for Poppy and Chimp?) Why not just go ahead and vote for Lieberman FGS. I am really pissed at all the Clarkies who came on this board saying for months that Clark was anti-Iraq Invasion, and a Democrat. He isn't any Democrat and I'm not going to support him for VP.

We already had Lieberman and Kerry who voted for this war......do we need Clark who is a lifelong Repug who claims he's a Dem now! We are suckers if we accept this guy. :grr:
Here is the quote about Clark's Repug status:

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what
happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."

Moving to fill in the blanks of his candidacy a day after he announced for president, General Clark also said that he had been a
Republican who had turned Democratic after listening to the early campaign appeals of a fellow Arkansan, Bill Clinton.

Indeed, after caustically comparing the actions of the Bush administration to what he described as the abuses of Richard M.
Nixon, he said that he voted for Mr. Nixon in 1972. He also said he had voted for Ronald Reagan in 1980 and 1984.

The general's remarks in a free-rolling 90-minute airborne interview suggested the extent of the adjustment he faces in becoming
a presidential candidate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html?ex=1064635200&pagewanted=print&position=

[NNN0LHI]

18. So Dean becomes an unworthy candidate if he chooses Clark as VP?

Using your rational that would be the case. Isn't it?

Don

[NNN0LHI]

24. Does it make Dean unworthy in that situation KoKo01? Please answer n/t

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

23. Clark is playing for the Reagan Democrat vote

That's no more offensive than Dean's gun right position is to lots of gun control people (I happen to really like Dean on that issue).

[Pastiche423]

45. I'm w/you, Koko!

We should support a man that was a repug for forty four years? A man that voted for Nixon and Reagan, the two rethugs that steered our country on the path it's on now? A man that couldn't say he was a Democrat until two weeks ago?

Are we nuts???

No to clark as pres. No to clark as veep.

[CWebster]

9. Disagree

It is more likely a deliberate manuever staged to ward off the threat of Dean. The establishment party of insiders are players in this war to thwart Dean. They have made no secret that they oppose him. They would rather preserve their power base and status quo by running the show with no outsider interference. Note the word being dessiminated thru the media just prior to the General's grand entrance:

"Lackluster field of Democratic candidates, not catching fire with the base."

Huh? Dean's record breaking millions in small contributions? His legions of supporters? His unprecedented grassroots campaign?

What camp do you suppose is pitching that lie? The one that calls itself our own?



It is an outrage - but not an unexpected one.

[KoKo]

13. Clarks admission of being a Repug & War Support make Kerry look great!

So, it's possible that he's in the race because of DLC/DNC pushing him as the "fall guy." Thereby making both Kerry and Lieberman get more attention. After all at least they are declared Dems......and even if Lieberman is Repug Lite.......he at least is a registered Dem who didn't vote for Nixon or Reagan (one would hope anyway).

[returnable]

15. Wouldn't it be nice...

...if someone asked Lieberman that question? I'd be kind of curious :)


"he at least is a registered Dem who didn't vote for Nixon or Reagan (one would hope anyway)."

[CWebster]

17. If Kerry could only muster the strength -

and free himself from DLC operatives, he could renew his odds. Kerry is a superior Democrat with a long and admirable record of fighting the good fight. I have renewed respect for Kerry as a true-blue Democrat--as for the rest of the field, since the emergence of the cardboard cut-out reborn general with a Republican history.

Although I am in the Dean camp, I wish Kerry would forge his own road and make a stand--in the direction of Teddy Kennedy and Gore-as Gore is today, before he suffers the same fate as the man Gore was yesterday.

[ropi]

10. Dean/Clark Clark/Dean

I agree... No matter which runs as Pres, the ticket will be strong. Let's appeal to Dean or Clark to consider this as a possiblity instead of bickering. If both of these gentlemen are into the "grass roots" types of movements, why not write each of them and ask one to offer to step behind the other. In this case, second place, that is to say the VP position, is not the losing spot.

[LeahMira]

12. Who's the audience here?

Come on. We all want to win in 2004. Meanwhile, though, Democrats need to choose the candidate to run against him. IMO, it's legitimate to talk about each possibility and weigh the pros and cons... right up to convention time.

We aren't all going to be totally thrilled with the Democratic candidate, but we are going to support him/her no matter what when the time comes.

I'll be a little disappointed if either Dean or Kucinich doesn't get the nod, but heck... if Lieberman gets it, I'll support him. I'm seriously hoping that doesn't happen, but meanwhile... let's select the best candidate. That's the job for now.

[9119495]

14. Well said

Not intending to count the other candidates out yet, I think if Dean and Clark are the last men standing, they will join forces. Dean has money and grass roots. Clark has resume and the power to neutralize that "week on defense" argument used by the right (=wrong). Avoid bashing any candidate. After all, you may be holding up there name on a sign this time next year.

[newyawker99]

26. Hi 9119495!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[trogdor]

19. A-fricken-men!

We're all on the same team. It's like spring training. Yes, you're competing for the starting position at third base with two other guys, but the coaches are more impressed by your ability to win it by distinguishing yourself on the field, not by trying to tear the other guys down. Do you hear me, Sen. Lieberman?

[wtmusic]

20. Tearing down is a good thing

I want to see all the candidates stripped to the bone.

[mike_c]

21. frankly, the more I learn about Clark, the less I want him in the WH...

...in any capacity.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Does that mean you will not vote for any Dem candidate for president...

...if Clark is on the ticket then?

Don

[hippiechick]

28. I totally agree !

The Dean-Clark pissing contests are getting worse than the Nader/Gore flamefests !!

We gotta focus on the The One True Enemy, people --- GEORGE W BUSH.


:hippie:

[kentuck]

30. It seems so obvious...

Is it a misperception that the people at DU are politically savvy and intelligent? There is a good chance we might have a Dean-Clark ticket. Do we have a bunch of "morans' at DU?

[NNN0LHI]

32. It saddens me to no end kentuck that this post was even needed

:-(

Don

[bushisanidiot]

31. I Agree. I refuse to attack ANY Dem Nominee

because we are all on the same side. All that matters is bringing AWOL down!!

[Mairead]

34. OF COURSE he'd like him as VP -- that would be much better than

having him as his OPPONENT.

Jeez!

(I'm sure the reverse is true, too, or will be if Clark finds it more difficult to de-vitalise Dean than he and his backers think)

[dusty64]

35. I also think this is the deal.

Think the meeting they had prior to Clark's announcement was a pact to pick the other as VP if either wins the nomination. What else could they have been talking about?

[wyldwolf]

36. Think about it more this way...

...if Dean thinks so much of Clark to want him as his VP, then why are so many Dean fans thrashing him?

He's good enough for your candidate but not for you?

[DemExpat]

37. I'd love an answer to this question too.....

What will all of the Dean fans who totally reject Clark do 'when' the Presidential/VP team is Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean??????????

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

DemEx

[NNN0LHI]

38. Perhaps they will say we will need to all vote third party then maybe? n/t

[LWolf]

43. As far as I'm concerned,

if the Dean and Clark supporters want to go 12 rounds in the political ring, more power to them. They can spend their energy that way, and I hope they enjoy themselves.

Meanwhile, I'll be working for a candidate I want, and it's neither of them. Thankfully, there are 8 other worthy candidates to pay attention to at this point. And I doubt if any of the 8 are considering clark or dean as a running mate.

[NNN0LHI]

44. And if the candidate you do want does in fact pick Dean or Clark...

...as his or her running mate does that in turn make them no longer a worthy candidate in your opinion?

Don

[LWolf]

46. Not at all.

I'll support Dean or Clark 100% if they get the nod. If the nominee picks either of them as VP, it won't make a difference to my support.

I just don't think either one would be first pick of the other 8 candidates. Not a prediction or judgement, just an opinion. Not because I don't think they are worthy; because I don't think they "fit" each other. Well, maybe Kerry/Clark. It's hard to imagine Kerry/Dean after the primary battlefields clear.

I'm not anti-Dean or Clark; just pro other candidates that I prefer more. Personally, in an ideal world, all dems would treat all primary candidates respectfully as the possible candidate they might need to support in the general election. We know we will hear plenty of trashing and bashing then; why savage each other now? If that's the choice some supporters make, I think they are choosing to squander the energy that could be promoting the candidate of their choice. Just another opinion.

[NNN0LHI]

47. I respect you opinion n/t