All this crap about voting for Reagan NOT being a factor

[Cocoa]

Clark is NOT being blackballed for his past support of one of the worst presidents ever. He's in the race, no one tried to stop him, and he has plenty of support here at DU.

So what's the problem with people pointing to his Reagan support and thinking twice?

Sure a lot of schmoes voted for Reagan, does that mean that we want one of those schmoes running for president as a dem?

One of the concerns about Clark is that he has no record. I share this concern, I want to know who he is.

Call me dumb and stupid all you want, but the fact that he voted for Reagan gives me a clue who he is.

[disgruntella]

1. I'd hold out for better clues. n/t

[joeybee12]

5. It will make a difference to some, to others it won't

It makes me think twice, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for him.

Clark has been ordained the Messiah by his supporters, and have a problem with others being critical of him.

The fact is there was very little info out there about him vefore he declared, and he had never been tested yet. Only time will tell--the information will come out, and he will or will not come across well.

Nobody is given the nomination--they have to earn it.

[Cocoa]

20. exactly, different people react differently

that was the thing about Reagan, some people weren't directly affected by Reagan's policies but many were absolutely devastated.

For people in the latter group, support for Reagan could mean something very different compared to people in the former group.

It's not a deal-breaker for me either, but jeez it IS a factor, a big one. I mean it's REAGAN we're talking about for chrissakes.

[maha]

39. Most people aren't fortune tellers

Someday, even you may vote for a candidate who turns out to be very different from what you thought he was. It happens.

[Cocoa]

44. Reagan was not an unknown

it's in no way clear to me that Clark didn't get exactly what he wanted when he voted for Reagan.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

58. Reagan's "Pacific Coast Highway" ramble scared the shit out of me.

I thought the election was over. Corporate media whores would have none of that, though.



P.S. Let's not forget the "October Surprise," either.

[wryter2000]

2. I think it's only reasonable

It think it's only reasonable for us to be asking questions about Clark. If he becomes the nominee, I want to be able not only to support him but to defend him from repug attacks. If some thug moron says to me, "Your guy voted for Reagan, whadddya say to that?" I want to know what to say.

No candidate should be immune from questions about his/her positions. I'm tired of any kind of question or criticism being called "bashing." And, imho, "stop your bashing" threads are getting as tiresome as the bashing threads.

Flame retardant underwear on.

[maha]

8. Of course it's reasonable to ask questions.

Never stop asking questions. It makes no sense to me to write off a candidate because he voted for somebody 20 + years ago who turned out to be a bad President. We all make mistakes. Well, I didn't make that one, but I know reasonable people who did.

[wryter2000]

14. I'm married to one

The dh voted for Reagan. He'll never live it down as long as I'm alive. :)

[StClone]

37. I voted for Reagan

I have to live it down as long as I live with myself :-)

[diplomats]

11. I like Clark, but I won't flame you

I understand where you're coming from.

[Brucey]

3. Past voting record tells something,

it's not the most important thing, but maybe Clark is it and maybe he's not. Right now I would prefer Dean, Kerry, or Edwards, but that could change easily because I want to see how these guys hold up in the long run. A campaign is tough, and we need a nominee who can hold his own and have a message with legs.

[maha]

10. Dean, Kerry, and Edwards

voted for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War resolution. Those votes bother me.

[wryter2000]

16. Ooops

Dean wasn't in Congress, so he didn't vote for those things. He didn't vote against them, either, so he could maintain a little humility when opposing people who did.

[Upfront]

28. Dean Had No Vote on Patriot Act.

Dean was not in congress and had no opportunity to vote on the Patriot Act.

[Evil_Dewers]

29. "Dean, Kerry, and Edwards voted for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War resol

How did the ex-governor of Vermont cast votes in Congress?

[maha]

40. We're not talking about Dean, are we?

The thing is that those votes were serious flaws in judgment, and they were recent, and they bother me. If one of these guys is the eventual nominee I will vote for him, but I'd prefer someone else.

[maha]

4. Remember Senator Byrd

The Freeps keep reminding us that he belonged to the Klan when he was young. As if people can't change over the years.

If Gen. Clark had voted for Bush II in the recent non-election, I'd be concerned. But 20+ years ago? Fuhgeddaboudit.

[sistersofmercy]

Just curious, were you old enough to vote in 80 & 84?

[Cocoa]

24. no

my 1st pres. election was '88.

[sistersofmercy]

33. Mine too! I absolutely loved Dukakis! Totally loathed Papa Bush.

Let me ask you this were you aware of Reagan's badness at the time? I wasn't, didn't like him really but I only learned in retrospect exactly how bad he was. As for Papa Bush, I knew by his campaigning he was bad news!

[Cocoa]

54. I was acutely aware of Reagan's badness

there was no doubt about what Reagan was about in my family, from the beginning and it got more clear as his presidency went on.

I realize other people didn't see it the same, but that's the way we saw it.

[sistersofmercy]

56. I come from a long line of dems but just didn't view him in the

same light as I do now. As I said I didn't care for him but didn't view him as an evildoer. Perhaps, the narcissism of adolescence kept me from seeing how bad he was at the time.

[maha]

41. My 1st pres. election was '72.

Voted for McGovern. Me and three other people, as I recall.

The point is that you WILL change your mind about a lot of things as you get older, or you are dead. It so happens I wouldn't go back and change any of my votes for president, but my opinions on a number of issues and politicans have shifted over the years, and yours should, too, if you are a thoughtful person.

I remember the 1980 election very well, and although I voted for Carter, I wouldn't hold it against anyone if they told me they voted for Reagan then. I would only worry if they still think Reagan was a great president.

[noiretextatique]

60. well i was old enough, i knew better than to vote for reagan

then again, i knew better than to vote for any republican. reagan was as big of a joke as the current dunce occupying the white house. i'll to take a closer look at clark, but this is a big MINUS imho.

[bowens43]

6. I agree.

I like a lot of what he says but the facts that he was a general in the army and voted for reagan are of great concern to me. To me both are HUGE negatives. He also seems wishy-washy on whether or not he would have voted in favor of the war.

Where did this guy from? How did he suddenly get thrust to the forefront of democratic hopefuls? Can a general , a person used to having his orders followed without question , function in a civilian leadership role?

I'm not against this guy but I'm not for him....yet.

[quinnox]

7. It's silly

It's just part of the purity mentality that is so common here. I guess all the Dems who voted for Reagan should be kicked out of the party according to this logic. I should say non-logic.

[joeybee12]

9. It's NOT silly...

...some people have a problem with it--Reagan was a pathetically awful president.

My concern is obviously less than some about this--it happened a while back.

However, you can't dictate what factors people use when deciding to support or vote for someone.

It matters to some people here, and it's gonna matter to some people elsewhere.

[quinnox]

15. Yes it is

Of course Clark is going to vote for Reagan as a military man, most military go for the GOP for whatever reason.

I would be concerned about this as much as I would be concerned that Dean had a Republican father.

[Forkboy]

25. "most military go for the GOP for whatever reason."

Thats what making some people nervous.

I don't really think his voting for Raygun is that big of deal,but I wont ridicule the people who do.

[maha]

45. Military people are people, too

I think a lot of "lefties" have a knee-jerk distrust of anyone and anything "military." Some of the objections to Clark on DU (not this thread) border on hysteria, like Clark is going to declare martial law.

[Forkboy]

51. I agree to a point

re;Military people are people,too.

However,it takes a certain kind to rise to the top ranks of an organization like that.If Clark had been a common soldier I don't think we'd be seeing this nervousness on the part of some people.

[einsteins stein]

42. Thats nonsense, and you know it!

This has nothing to do with everyday party membership. We are talking about electing a president, and I think the two SHOULD have different standards.

Sheesh!

[CWebster]

12. It is unbelievable how Right is Left

For those who jokingly refer to Clinton as the "Best Republican president we ever had", we are now being sold the image of the ideal Democratic candidate, who actually throughout most of his life voted Republican until Clinton, and then was an undecided until a few days before he officially declares his candidacy. The general was considering a bid as a Democratic candidate before he was even officially a Democrat.

Not much light between the two it would seem.

Will someone tell me why this doesn't matter?

[sistersofmercy]

21. OK! I wasn't old enough to vote in 80 & 84 but things were very

different then. No internet or much cable tv/cable news, the info against Reagan wasn't widely circulated. The sins of Reagan didn't really come to light until after 88, I believe.
All I'm saying is it just wasn't as easy to sniff out the bad guys back then as it is now.

[noiretextatique]

61. sorry...that isn't true

i can't imagine that ANY thinking person voted for reagan, and his silly slogans..."morning in america" "make america great again" blah, blah, blah. his candidacy was ALARMING...alarms were going off all over the place. his was one of the most corrupt administrations in recent history...and it wasn't a big surprise. the 80's sucked.

[tjdee]

13. Amazing--meanwhile, DEAN wanted to raise the social security age,

said that Medicare was the worst federal program...

But Dean is "changing" and is "flexible".

Clark voted for Reagan 20 frigging years ago! If he voted for Nixon, lord, that's even longer ago. How do we know Dean didn't vote for Nixon? Who's to say he didn't "evolve" and "change his mind"? Just because he voted for Carter in 1976, shall we go back with Dean, as well?

The double standard going on here is amazing.

And what exactly does it say of Dean that he likes this crazy evil murderer Clark?

[CWebster]

17. I'll bet my bottom dollar

that despite all his positions and his self-proclaimed centrism, that Dean knows, without hesitation, what party he identified with.

I will also bet that he didn't vote for Reagan or Bush.

[tjdee]

32. Trust Dean, in other words.

No one is going to ask Dean his voting history, so your bet really doesn't sway me.

Actually, a case could be made that because Dean's father was a Republican, Dean probably identified himself as a Republican for a number of years. When the switch happened, nobody knows. Plus, it was over 20 years ago!

Same thing with Clark. Who cares if he voted for Nixon, I mean really. He's not voting for Nixon now. If the man was a Republican today, he obviously wouldn't be running against Bush.

And again--what differentiates the changes in Clark's voting record from Dean's previous policy stances???

Trust Dean, but not Clark?

That's fine, but if we're talking pasts, let's talk *everyone's* past.

[CWebster]

35. Someone ask him his voting history then

He got into politics campaigning for Carter. My suspicion is that he did not swing to Reagan from there.

I don't know about you -but the Reagan years and the reign of Reagan is not something I brush off easily.

[einsteins stein]

46. No Republicans run against Bush?

How do you feel about Bushlite Lieberman?

Uhm, and what about Quayle, McCain, Bauer, Forbes, Hatch, Keyes, and Alexander? Did I forget any Republicans that ran against Bush in the 2000 Repuke primary?

Pat Buchanan doesn't count.

[tjdee]

49. There's a difference.

I don't expect any Republican to run against their sitting president, do you?

If Clark were a Republican, he'd not be in the race.

Lieberman is a Democrat. A conservative Democrat, but a Democrat nevertheless.

It really doesn't matter, anyway--the Dem primary voters will purge as they see fit.

[einsteins stein]

59. I agree, let the voters purge.

That is the whole reason we have these things called primaries, right?

[quinnox]

19. Good point, how can Dean like Clark then?

If Clark voted for Reagan, how on earth could Dean want Clark as his V.P.?? What does this say about Dean's judgment? (sarcasm)

[CWebster]

23. Dean isn't ideal

but since I am pragmatic, and weighed the options and balanced the pros and cons--it is a compromise I can accept. Perhaps Dean's choices are based on pragmatism, he never claimed to be a purist.

I can't speak for where he draws the line, only where I do.

[loyalsister]

18. Maybe this isn't the place to campaign

For some people it's a good reason to not vote for Clark. People who support him have their own reservations about the other candidates.
I would suggest that this is not a forum where any of us can expect to convince other people. That happens in face to face campaign forums. Why not air our opinions and leave them at that. It may be worthwhile to offer our reasons for believing what we believe, but I don't think it's fair to tell another person what they should think.

[Brian Sweat]

22. The purity police have spoken.

Reagan voters must be pured.

[WilliamPitt]

26. Shmoes?

The very term proves my point. Thanks.

[ibegurpard]

50. I would've voted for Reagan if I'd been old enough

And I think the term "shmoe" would've been a very appropriate description of my ignorance.

On edit: I'm not particularly concerned about whether someone voted for Reagan...the last time they could've done that was nearly 20 years ago. As long as they can tell me that their views have changed and they would never, ever vote for someone like that now then I don't have a problem with it.

[Upfront]

27. Nixon too.

I beleive he said he voted for Nixon and maybe would have voted for war. At least he is honest about it. Gives me pause however.

[HERVEPA]

30. Voting for Reagan

It was totally clear to me in 1980 that voting for Reagan was a bad bad idea. He did not hide his views.
Clark was old enough then (older than the 30 I was then) and smart enough (Rhodes Scholar) to know better if he examined the issues.

I would like to hear from him why he did that, and whether he regrets that he did.

Also, how can he not remember for sure whether he voted for Nixon? I can sure remember everybody I've voted for.

For you younguns out there, it was just as clear back then that Reagan was bad as it was that shrub was bad. Same for Nixon.

Note: I don't support any candidate yet, and living in Pennsylvania, sadly don't need to make a choice at all. This will all be decided before PA primary.

And I certainly would vote for any of the candidates over shrub.

[Imalittleteapot]

31. My leftwing friend voted for Nixon AND Reagan.

My Rupuke husband voted for Clinton, if even only once. People do learn from their mistakes...or they simply change. Clark voting for Reagan doesn't bother me. However, last night Mike Malloy read from an old article that Clark liked Rummy and others in the Bush WH. That is bothersome, but Clark used worked with those guys. Friends come and go.:shrug:

[Ress1]

34. If you are looking for perfection,

politics is not the place for it. Our priority, above all else, should be to get Bush out of the White House which isn't going to be an easy task. There are things I dislike about each of the candidates, but nothing bad enough to make me nitpick the lifeblood from each of them, which is what we seem to be doing. We have to quit this craziness of negative attacks on people who are part of our party. Praise and promote your own candidate loud and long as much as you can, just do it without being negative towards other Dems. Lets be a positive party. :-)

[Cocoa]

36. I'm supporting Gephardt

possibly the single most compromised dem candidate. So perfection and purity is not the point.

[ikojo]

38. Past support for Reagan says to me that

a person at one time agreed with the policies espoused by Reagan. I would be more interested to know whether a DEMOCRATIC candidate CONTINUED voting for Reagan (1984) and then Bush (1988 and 1992). THAT more than one EXTREMELY misguided vote for Reagan illustrates where the candidate is politically and philosophically.

So, people seem to know that Gen. Clark voted for Reagan. Did he continue in that tradition or did he emerge from the dark side and vote Mondale in 1984, Dukakis in 1988, Clinton in 1992 & 1996 and finally did he support the DEMOCRATIC candidate in 2000?

I think candidates for any level of political office need to demonstrate loyalty to the party. To have a shining star emerge from the background and suddenly proclaim "I am a Democrat" with little or no track record of supporting the Democrats is not enough. How deeply is this person committed to the Democratic party? That is why I like to support people who have climbed through the ranks of the party.

Remember it is by running Bush lite candidates that the Dems lost the House and Senate.

[maha]

43. Against the rules

Military officers aren't supposed to work for candidates. They are't supposed to make their political affiliations public.

[OKNancy]

57. Clinton

in 92,96 and Gore in 2000.

[einsteins stein]

47. OK, so Clark voted for Reagan in 1980-Big Deal!

In 1980, I'll forgive him, sometimes you think one thing about a candidate, and you get shocked by what you receive. There are thousands of folks who voted Bush2 in 2000, and have seen the error of their vote. i hope they all vote Dem in 2004.

But, did Clark vote to re-elect Regan in 1984?

If he did, I think it show amazingly poor judgement for a man who wants to be the Democratic nominee for POTUS.

Clark seems like a decent guy, and though I like Dean, I have been glad to see Clark in the race. Still, Clark doesn't have a political record on which to run. So, naturally, these kinds of questions will come up, and are perfectly acceptable, under the circumstances.

Dean, Kerry, Lieberman, Gep...all have a body of work on which we can base our judgement. One vote here or there in the past may, or may not, break their candidacy. Unfortunately for Clark, and Clark's supporters, he doesn't have that type of a buffer. If I'm not "allowed" to question Clark based on this criteria, then I'll have to just drop any support I have for the guy.

I don't like to be told that I should't ask questions. Makes me nervous about what kind of answers I may have received.

[CMT]

48. it should be an issue

to those who believe that Nixon and Reagan were intellectually and morally unfit to be president. Many people made the mistake of voting for them, we can forgive them and welcome them in our party--but I wonder if we want them leading the choir?

[JVS]

52. What if a political candidate voted for Nader in 2000?

Any opinions on that, or is it a non-issue?

[Cocoa]

53. for me, it's a non-issue

especially since I was a Nader voter myself.

Nader's ideas are compatible with being a democrat. Reagan's are not, and it's not even close.

[noiretextatique]

62. JVS...excellent question

it would be a total reverse of most of the sentiments expressed here. i can just hear it now...the stunning hypocrisy.

[kwolf68]

55. BS

Had I could I would have voted for Reagen in 1984...But almost 20 years of maturing, and growing have brought me to a different place.

I believe my views would appeal to most Democrats and I would say that I am more of a Wellstone-Democrat these days.

Because one voted for a Repuke doesn't mean we are prone to heading back. It may mean we have seen that side's evil sway and are MORE committed to resisting the flow of idiocy we once got caught up in.

Give Clark the Benefit of the doubt on this.