Wesley Clark is a white version of Colin Powell

[dfong63]

that proposition just sort of popped into my head a few minutes ago. the similarities are obvious. both are west pointers who fought in vietnam, made a career of the military, worked up thru the ranks, had impressive billets, and culminated their careers by commanding a "successful" air war. both gained a civilian following, although Clark was less visible than Powell. both wrote books about their military experiences.

i'm sure there are other parallels, but that's enough for starters. so i'm curious. i don't think many on this board are admirers of Colin Powell. why does Clark have so many admirers? what are the important differences between General Clark and General Powell, that make one a hero and the other a villain?

let me be clear about this: i am not trying to say there are NO differences, but as i think about them, it seems to me that they are more alike than not.

on edit: sorry, Colin Powell was not a west pointer.

[WilliamPitt]

1. DU is not America

In America, Powell has massive appeal across the spectrum. It is not so farfetched to think that Bush got a big boost in his campaign when he tapped Powell to be Secretary of State. There was massive disappointment when Powell decided not to run for President.

[joeybee12]

2. Another similarity--both spin the media like crazy!

Powell does it very well--he's a complete and utter failure as Secretary of State and has proven his incompetence over and over, but the media--even liberal pundits--seem to cover for him.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Not to defend Powell, but

The office of the Secretary of State is only useful and effective when it works for an administration that actually practices diplomacy. Powell is a Company Man, and so will toe the line and never resign (and lie)...but he is as useful as tits on a boar in this administration.

[KoKo]

17. So, Clark is useful as "tits on a boar" to the Democratic Party?

WHAT??? :crazy:

On Edit: I think I misread your comment...but taking it further...who would Clark be useful to as the Democratic nominee? Who would use his "tits?"

[WilliamPitt]

23. He can win

and has that broad appeal that Powell had and then squandered.

[KoKo]

28. Aren't you forgetting the "oldies' Sixties anti-war folks? They are

really worked up about Iraq and Selection 2000. From what I see around, they are on the warpath. Plus, their alliance with Dean/Kucinich young folks....

I don't know Will, maybe you're seeing something on your book tour that has changed your mind about the Invasion and you feel supporting a General who voted for Nixon is someone Dems are going to rush out an vote for.....but I would see a split in the Dem party like we haven't seen since the 60's.....and a bad one....that we don't need right now.

I see it here on DU....and we are voters and active.

[WilliamPitt]

39. What I've seen on my book tour

are Kucinich supporters and Dean supporters and Kerry supporters lining up, in the end, to support whomever wins the nomination. That means Clark, if he gets the nod.

DU is not America.

[fla nocount]

45. Oldies? Not perceiving myself that way.

But you're right about being worked up. I'd settle for a progressive harnessed with a poster child. Powell might very well have swung enough votes in the last election to get * close enough to defeat President Gore.

Hey, I'm open but 9 of the 10 candidates have had offices on the "Hill" for years and I'd hate to have to vote for one of them up front much less two of them harnessed together.


I like Dean, Wellstone with a mean streak, even though I might be off base with that.

[KoKo]

48. No Offense Fla, it was a reference to a post of Will's where on his first

book tours he saw alot of "oldies" and was concerned about where the "youngies" were. Youngies is my word, not his. So, I was referencing his post in my reply that 60's folks were hopping mad and I didn't think they would be running to back Clark anytime soon. That's all.
:-)'s for the "oldies."

[dfong63]

19. that's true,

... so suppose Colin Powell suddenly announced he's decided to become a democrat. and a week later, he's running for the dem nomination. could you support him?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. No

cuz Powell has always been identified with the Republican party...

I would doubt his sincerity....

Wes Clark appeared to be apolitical....

[tjdee]

3. Clark haters=Clinton haters=Powell haters.

Just a theory I'd like to try out.

I personally wasn't crazy to have Powell hitch his train to Republicans, but I hoped that he would be a quasi-good force within the BushRove administration. I bore no ill will against the guy, thought he was pretty moderate (and he's not nearly as hawkish as the scarier Bushies).

And if he'd run for the presidency, I think he may have won fairly against Gore.

What made me dislike Powell was his continuous bending over and his becoming the shell of the man I thought he was.

[Bertrand]

7. I think the defining moment that made people lose respect for powell here

was that joke of a presentation to the UN.

[readmylips]

33. Powell is a soldier....

Soldiers follow orders, and that is all Powell knows how to do. His son Michael is no different...little waterboy for the rich.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

47. It does not excuse their improper behavior!

:eyes:

[Caution]

4. Actually

I had a great deal of respect and admiration for Colin Powell prior to his affiliation with Bush. He began losing that respect in 2001 and has pretty much lost all of it by now.

[dfong63]

21. so the stuff that Ron Kovic objected to,

... Powell's role in the coverup of the My Lai massacre, didn't affect your thinking?

i wonder what Clark would have done if he had been in Powell's shoes? does anyone think that Clark would have done the right thing, called for a full investigation and then pursued justice to the bitter end, to the possible detriment of his career? has there been any incident in Clark's career, that would have challenged his conscience in a similar way?

[qb]

6. I, too admired Powell before he started lying for Bush.

[RobertSeattle]

8. Agreed

I would have considered voting for Powell back in 2000. (Doubtful, but would have considered it)

[CWebster]

9. Well, it seems the "New Democrat" Left

generally patterns itself after the Right.

I'll tell you what concerns me--What happens if Clark squeaks through the nomination by dirty dealing and party machine media manipulations, etc--(already we saw a glimpse of it in elbowing out Edwards). What happens if he wins the nomiation by a tenuous thread and then shifts his positions dramatically in the General without a strong mandate from the base? Will the ABB battle cry be enough to carry the day if the Democrats see their candidate as a Republican-but-not-Bush as less promising than a emerging third party alternative?

[kang]

50. How was that a "dirty" tactic by Clark to upstage Edwards?

I mean this is a primary election isn't it? It was a smart political move. Clark had been signaling that he was going to decide that particular week for awhile. Besides, hurricane Isabel really upstaged everybody IMHO.

I wish people would stop attaching weird assumptions and stereotypes on Clark. Look, why can't people just wait and see and in the meantime admit that his life accomplishments are impressive and admirable. So the Clintons think he should run, that doesn't mean Clark will be just like Clinton in office. He's a very diff. man.

[RichM]

10. I agree with you.

I bet that most of those backing Clark now would have just as happily backed Powell, if he'd have decided to run as a Democrat.

You can see the political confusion of these people as more news comes out about Clark: it doesn't matter to them if he voted for Nixon & Reagan; doesn't matter if he's chummy with Perle, Bolton, Cheney, & Wolfowitz; doesn't matter if he commanded when Depleted Uranium shells were used & civilians were bombed; doesn't matter if he gave honorary lectures at the School of the Americas; doesn't matter if he says today he would have voted for the IWR -- nothing matters except that now he has a 'D' on his jersey. :eyes:

[joeybee12]

12. NO--I would never have voted for Powell! Even as a Dem!

His actions when Clinton first took office were downright treasonous! He went behind his back to drum up support for bigotry against gays in the military!

I loathe Sam Nunn for that as well as the other Dems who did the same!

[ima_sinnic]

51. absolutely!

I agree 100%!!

[kang]

52. Again, why all the assumptions about Clark supporters?

Look, I don't assume that every Dean supporter is a hard core Leftist who's blindly anti-War in all cases. Why do people fail to see the appeal of Clark? Do I wish he didn't vote for Nixon or Reagan (if that's the case)? Yeah. Does it mean I'll condemn the man and totally disregard his lifetime of service to this country? No way. As for his Perle, Bolton, Cheney, & Wolfowitz comments, please don't get too excited. I think people on this site have some fantasy that D.C. isn't a place where you can get along with people who you disagree with on many things.

And for the DU shells and the civilians comment...again what is going on with Serbian campaign smear campaign here? DU is standard military weaponry (environmental concerns aside), is he supposed to not use these and thereby endanger his mission of STOPPING A GENOCIDAL REGIME? And if anybody thinks Clark wanted civilians to die in Serbia, I'm not sure what they base that on and I feel sorry that their opinion of our military servicemen is so low (my cousins).

We're talking about one of the most nit-picked and oversighted bombing campaigns in history (with 19 nations needing to sign off on a target...that's alot of JAG lawyers reviewing each target). Yeah mistakes happen. That's why Clark believes war is the last option.

As for the honorary lectures at the School of Americas, I'll have to do more research since no link or source was cited here. I don't like some of the bad guys who've come through there, but how do we know that Clark wasn't a positive force in those lectures? Let's not jump to conclusions please.

[Devil Dog Dem]

11. Powell wasn't a West Pointer.

He went to SUNY, or some other state school in New York.

[playahata1]

13. Actually, CITY COLLEGE OF NEW YORK.

MBA, George Washington University.

[dfong63]

16. oops, thanks for the correction

[HawkerHurricane]

14. Nice Rush Limbaugh quote

Your headline was what Rush was saying yesterday about Clarke, except he called him the "Democrats version of Colin Powell, only without the integrity" or something similar.

[dfong63]

25. interesting, i don't listen to rush,

... but i guess the similarities are obvious to all.

but note, i never implied that Colin Powell had more integrity than Clark.

[HawkerHurricane]

27. true

And I will not claim that was a exact Rush quote, since I tend to only hear him while changing tapes in my cassette player.

(I keep it on that station because that's the one that has the baseball and football games, OK? I'm not a closet Rush listener, so stop saying that.)

[redwitch]

54. Sure.

That's what we'd expect a closet Rush fan to say! ;-)

[KoKo]

15. Since Powell has turned out to be a Party Line Repug.....which surprised

many of us here, it would be hard to know if Clark wouldn't revert
to his former, and recent affiliation. If he was a Repuglican up until Clinton came along (according to NYT's) then why didn't he just run against Bush as a moderate Repug? Why does he have to pretend to be a Democrat? There were, at one time, Conservative Repugs who might have been acceptable to Conservative Dems. But, I think we Dems are past that point since the RW Repugs took over with Gingrich.

With all we've been through with the stolen election, mid-term failures and the Bush/PNAC Crowd....I don't see how we could be asked to "cough" down a Repug turncoat as our Democratic Presedential Nominee. I can at least look at Jim Jeffords voting record since he switched parties. But, I have nothing to go on about what Clark believes except what comes out of his mouth and the hopes expressed about what he believes by the Clarkies here on DU.

There just something fishy about his whole campaign. Sorry, it's like some Dem operatives are throwing this guy in the face of those of us who are still angry about Selection 2000 and the Iraq Invasion. A Nixon voting Repug who suddenly has "misgivings or whatever he says" about the Invasion he said he would have voted for. :shrug: :eyes:

[StephNW4Clark]

18. Dem Operatives

Look - I realize everyone here has misgivings about the Clark campaign's management containing some Clinton/Gore people.

But don't say that this was started by them. We (the supporters) started the Draft Wesley Clark movement - WE pledged the money, WE pledged the support, WE pledged our time. To say that this has been in the works by behind-the-scenes political operatives isn't accurate and completely discredits the thousands of people who actively urged General Clark to run.

It might be an interesting conspiracy theory to say that the DLC is behind all this, but I can honestly tell you that I wanted to Clark to run when he was a military/ foreign pol analyst on CNN. And then I found out I could join an Internet group to draft the general.

I'm pleased he can assemble a great campaign team. But to say that none of us little people had anything to do with it at all is not only a lie but an insult.

[KoKo]

20. Are you a registered Democrat, have you voted as a Democrat, have all

Clark's supporters been Democrats? I didn't say that Clark was supported by DLC. It's WHY is Clark being supported when we have so many other good candidates. And, are his "grassroots" supporters here...Democrats, or are they Repugs who've turned Dem like Clark says he has.

[disgruntella]

32. Sheesh - shades of "are you now or have you ever been a communist?"

Please read what you are saying again. For God's sake, people are proud that Dean attracts Republicans and Independents, but when Clark attracts them, they must be STORMTROOPERS! :eyes:

[CWebster]

22. is the ball in your hands any longer?

[dfong63]

38. not wishing to dismiss your sincere fervor, but

It might be an interesting conspiracy theory to say that the DLC is behind all this, but I can honestly tell you that I wanted to Clark to run when he was a military/ foreign pol analyst on CNN. And then I found out I could join an Internet group to draft the general.

not wishing to dismiss your sincere fervor, but i can't help wondering "who" started this internet group.

[PATRICK]

24. Avoiding the comparison

It is interesting that military brass attracted to a ceretain manner and policy slant would favor Republicans over and over again except...Powell was mistaken. The Eisenhower days which were a sham filled with shrill ideologues and corporate fascism redux are far far away from the extreme right wing, moralistic hypocrisy of the present GOP. Clark is smarter to realize that and like General Jackson knows his people power tactics better than the magisterial but ill-used and hopeless Powell and will not be turned into a lapdog of kingmakers unaware. Simply willing to join in at the civilian level is a refreshing difference already and puts him on the same par with lower ranked veterans in accepting civilian institutional rules.

If he is not sincere and capable of handling this descent from the Pentagon he won't win the primaries. How he handles an inevitable primary defeat or two will will do wonders for resolving these issues.

Read up on Powell's checkered past(Vietnam and the MiLai coverup) and the slavish worship of the usual suspects in the press corps that have biult up this insubstantial image of Powell as a honest and great hero-candidate. I have seen little but presumptions about Powell and a lot of soul-selling on his part to little effect. At least Clark will get a less puffed and mythical platform for his presentation.

[dfong63]

29. interesting... i asked about my lai in response #21,

has Clark ever faced a test of his character like Powell faced when My Lai crossed his desk? do you think Clark would have done the right thing if he'd been in Powell's shoes (boots)?

is Clark the kinda guy who could participate (as Powell did) in an Iran-contra type of operation? does Clark have the moral fiber to say "Hell, no" illegal or unethical acts? can Clark supporters point to any incident where Clark did so?

i almost asked if Clark detractors could point out an instance where he didn't, but then i remembered Kosovo, depleted uranium, and the bombing of civilian infrastructure.

[tabasco]

26. Just because they were both military is a weak reason to link them

They are about as different as the sun and the moon. Powell is an ass-kissing conservative errand boy. Clark is a free-thinking patriot who is answering the call of his nation at a time of need. And oh yeah, Clark is a Democrat.

[KoKo]

31. Powell was rumored for years to be a Dem/ Clark is a voting Repug who now

is rumored to be a Dem because he may have voted for Clinton. I believe that's the comparison. And, it's a fair one, if you think about it.

[disgruntella]

35. it's a fair comparison if you don't want to think very hard

If you only care about party membership and not about people's positions and actions regarding issues, it's fair.

[dfong63]

40. you refer to "positions and actions regarding issues", so tell us

... what are Clark's "actions" on the issues?

we've heard some of his "positions", and we know they're vague and inconsistent. and even where his positions are somewhat consistent, how do we know they won't change? he only recently became a democrat. that suggests that his positions might not be based on deeply held convictions.

[disgruntella]

42. why should I bother?

The title of your thread tells me it wouldn't be worth my time and energy. And you missed the point of my post: judging someone by past/present party affiliation alone is not particularly bright.

Good luck with the rest of your thread; I'm out.

[dfong63]

43. hey, nice dodge

why should I bother? The title of your thread tells me it wouldn't be worth my time and energy.

nice! you say i should judge a candidate by his positions and actions, but when asked, decline to state what Clark's are.

And you missed the point of my post: judging someone by past/present party affiliation alone is not particularly bright.

and i think your point is not particularly bright. no one is that i know of is judging Clark by past/present party affiliation ALONE; it's that in combination with other disturbing anomalies. and considering the current lack of reliable information about Clark's "positions and actions", a lack which is the fault of no one but the candidate himself, little things that ARE known such as party affiliation are certainly fair game.

Good luck with the rest of your thread; I'm out.

hmm, i manage to listen to the pro-Clark side without leaving in a huff and slamming the door behind me. i wonder why you felt it necessary to leave after saying nothing to defend Clark, but only posting thinly disguised ad hominems.

[dfong63]

34. just because clark was in the military is a weak reason to support him

They are about as different as the sun and the moon.

so are you saying that Clark is a dim version of Powell, or vice versa?

Powell is an ass-kissing conservative errand boy.

Powell was chairman of the JCS. i don't think your characterization is quite accurate.

Clark is a free-thinking patriot who is answering the call of his nation at a time of need.

the same could be said of Powell, if he ever decided to run.

And oh yeah, Clark is a Democrat.

yeah, a true-blue dyed-in-the-wool dem, since what, about 2 weeks ago?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. What does their race have to do with your comparisons?

[dfong63]

36. please refer to the numerous threads where

... Lieberman is referred to the candidate of people for whom "George Bush is not Jewish enough".

it's the same idea.

[Tinoire]

37. Disliked Powell from the start

My-Lai was one of the main reasons. The other was, to put it bluntly, in my unit at least, we had him pegged as a big-time Uncle Tom.

What saddened me as a Black person, is that the main reason people liked Powell was because, as Chris Rocks put it, "He speaks so well".

I don't know what it will take for us to get past speech, rhetoric and appearance and get to substance.

No, I would never have voted for him. There are many fine, good people in the military but I never thought My-Lai Powell was one of them. The thing when examining how quickly someone climbed through the ranks is "what did they do to get there". Powell was loyal to his masters and had the advantage of being a young Black officer in the right place at the right time when they desperately needed to promote Blacks.

[dfong63]

41. thanks for your reply,

i had no idea of this aspect of your background.

when you refer to "My-Lai Powell" it raises a question in my mind. not wishing to detract from the seriousness of My Lai, but i wonder, really how much worse was Colin Powell than any other career officer who went on to become a high-ranking general? you say there are many "fine, good people in the military", but i (never having been there) would imagine that it must be nearly impossible to remain in the military for long, in any position of authority, without being confronted by a career-busting moral dilemma of some kind.

am i wrong?

[Isome]

44. Personally, I don't believe he is any worse.

He's a military man, through and through. For me, and people like me, we expected him to bow to his conscience. Instead he aligned himself with a group of corporate-owned politicians who use "moral certainty" to disguse their ammorality, because all they're truly concerned about is getting a bigger piece of the pie than anyone else.

[bloom]

49. kick for pitt

[uptohere]

53. except that Powell got the top spot in the Military

and excelled at it while Clark got a nice spot and was fired.

[IndianaGreen]

55. Powell was involved in the early cover up of the My Lai massacre

To my knowledge, Clark has never been linked to any massacre in Vietnam or coverup thereof.

In addition to that, Powell is a pathological liar and a fraud. I have yet to see anything in Clark's character that measures to Powell's level of mendacity.

[uptohere]

57. making up stories about phone calls to look good on TV isn't big ?

.

[iangb]

56. Wow! What a break thru!

A whole new school of logic.

Mine is "Bush is a male Dolly Parton".