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Here's What ELSE Clark Was Saying About the War Before the War

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 11:47 AM
Original message
Here's What ELSE Clark Was Saying About the War Before the War
Even though his statement was heavily qualified, I was disappointed to read about Clark's "probable" vote in favor of the war. It completely rocked my worldview, since everything I'd learned about Clark had led me to the strong and supported conclusion that he would NOT have voted for the war.

That said, it is also unfair to paint him as a cheerleader for the war, as some here have been trying to do. The article at the bottom of this post was written by General Clark and printed in TIME magazine on October 10, 2002. Based on this article (one of several articles written by Clark on the war), it's quite clear that he holds a sophisticated and nuanced view of the conflict. In my opinion, it is also quite clear that had Clark been the Commander-in-Chief, we never would have gotten ourselves into this mess in the first place.

It would have been easy for Clark to say, "I would have voted against the war." That's because he wasn't there, he wasn't under the same pressures that the sitting Senators were, with half of even their own constituencies toeing an Administration line. He wasn't there, deluged with classified intelligence information, some of which probably turned out to be false. He wasn't there. So it would have been easy for him to have said he would have voted against the war, despite all of the tumult and context surrounding that vote for the people who actually had to make that decision.

I salute Bob Graham and Dennis Kucinich for having the guts to vote "No." I do not excuse John Edwards, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman and Dick Gephardt for ultimately voting "Yes."

But neither do I consider a vote in favor of the Iraq War Resolution a disqualifying event. I was disappointed to hear Clark's position on the vote. Yet that position still does not make him a warmonger, it still does not make him "pro-Iraq War," it still does not mean he would be a bad President.

All it makes him is an honest man, maybe too honest for the Presidency, as sad as that is to say. It makes him an honest man, and it shows him to be a deep, conflicted thinker on a complex subject. Foreign policy, especially as it pertains to partisan politics, is not a black-and-white issue, and it is naive to believe otherwise. Foreign policy is filled with shades of gray.

I am glad my chosen candidate recognizes this. I am glad he is honest enough to say what he really believes, without regard to how it might "spin" among the electorate.

And as a final note, as someone who participated in anti-Iraq invasion demonstrations, I am both glad and thankful for Howard Dean, who has been -- and continues to be -- in the forefront of this issue, mercilessly hammering on Bush and his short-sighted, black-and-white, "America First" foreign policy.

DTH

--

Let's Wait to Attack

By General Wesley K. Clark

<...>

We must also have sustained public support, but so far, our national debate on Iraq has been upside down. The Administration announced its aim to change the regime in Baghdad before it made the case for action. To some, our government seemed to be seeking war as a preferred choice rather than as a last resort. We need a real debate to gain the full and informed support of the American people as we move ahead.

In the near term, time is on our side. Saddam has no nuclear weapons today, as far as we know, and probably won't gain them in the next few months. The U.S. has total military dominance of the region. Although Saddam has chemical and biological weapons, he has no long-range missiles with which to deliver them. Certainly, the clock is ticking, because Saddam may eventually acquire the nuclear weapons and delivery systems he seeks. Nonetheless, there is still time for dialogue before we act.

Some would say that since we can't be certain how much time we have until then, we must attack right away. It is true that any delay entails risks. But so does action. So we must balance those risks, and take actions that not only achieve our aim of disarming Saddam--and probably ending his regime in the process--but also help defeat al-Qaeda. How can we do both?

President Bush was right to carry the problem of Iraq to the United Nations. And he is right to stay with the diplomatic process, as we seek to sway international opinion to our side. Even if the U.N. is ultimately unable to give us the strong resolution that we seek, the support of friends and allies will be important--as it was in Kosovo--in gaining worldwide credibility for our aims and legitimacy for our actions. Moreover, while we have the time, we must do everything possible to prepare for some unpleasant possibilities. What if Saddam uses his biological arsenal on his own people in southern Iraq? Are we prepared to deal with the ensuing catastrophe alone, or would we not be wiser to help ready international humanitarian and emergency organizations to come in with us? After Saddam's government collapses, are we prepared to maintain order and prevent mayhem? Wouldn't we be wiser to arrange for police support from other nations and international organizations? And if, as a result of conflict, Iraq's economy collapses, wouldn't we like to have international organizations ready to assist in nation building? Afterward, when agencies from the Islamic world enter Iraq to help rebuild, won't we want to inhibit anti-Americanism and anti-Western sentiment by having thought through the many possible humanitarian problems before we are blamed for them?

The answer to all these questions is yes, if we have the time. Well, we do. The key issue about Iraq has never been whether weshould act if Saddam doesn't comply with U.N. resolutions anddisarm. Rather, the problems are how we should act, and when. As for the how, the answer is clear--multilaterally, with friends and allies, with every possible effort to avoid the appearance of yet another Christian and Jewish stab at an Islamic country, with force as a last resort, and with a post-conflict plan in place to assure that the consequences of our action do not supercharge the al-Qaeda recruiting machine. As for the when, let's take the time to plan, organize and do the whole job the right way. This will only take a few more weeks, and it's important. It's not just about winning a war--it's also about winning the peace.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/timep.iraq.viewpoints.tm/
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Let's Wait To Attack" sounds like....
a certain candidate who wanted to wait 60 days.

Hmmm...
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Genuinely Ignorant Here, Will
Which candidate are you referring to?

Thanks.

DTH
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Kerry n/t
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. not kerry
.
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Bertrand Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I think he's referring to Dean
and the whole "lets give them 60 days" mantra during the buildup.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Really?
Edited on Fri Sep-19-03 12:17 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
I don't recall anything like that, but maybe I wasn't paying attention as closely as I could have been.

I certainly don't think Dean was in favor of the war, though!*

DTH

* Not saying anyone else is saying that, either.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. It was Dean
He wanted to wait 60 days to suss out the inspections and the evidence. Smart smart smart.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thanks for the Info
I wasn't aware of that.

DTH
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Dean was in favor of war, under certain conditions
Here's a link: http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/20448207.html

Dean was opposed the the pResidient's timetable for the war, and favored a 60-day waiting period for Saddam to disarm. If Iraq didn't disarm, he supported getting a UN resolution to use force to disarm Saddam Hussein.

Dean was against the pResident's war, but he was not totally against any war on Iraq.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. That's Good To Know
It sounds very similar to Clark's position after all.

That makes me wonder whether or not the only reason Clark is getting savaged here is due to swallowing of the media spin, both in terms of Dean's skillful mastery of it, and Clark's honest and inexperienced stumble yesterday.

And again, I love both of these guys.

DTH
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disgruntella Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks! n/t
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. I excuse John Edwards!
I just wanted to talk about John Edwards.
}(
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. lol
:)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Hey Man, Admit It, You Know You're Only Laughing Because
You're an ANTI-CLARKER IN DISGUISE!!!

:evilgrin:

DTH
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good article. I wish he'd realized Bush was gonna do it no matter what
cause I sure did. All you had to do was listen to Cheney last August. And he basically said they were gonna just invade, no matter what anybody else thought.

A lot of people knew this, and that's why we protested and got all angry about it.

So where were these guys? Trying to reason with Bush? Fuck that. Bush was on a hell-bent course and the only way to stop him was to force him to stop. Instead, everybody said "let's talk", "let's wait" and all of that crap. You can't do that with evil, they just roll right over you. Contracts mean nothing to them. Only force works.

So now everybody is saying "gosh, I'm so surprised they went in! That's not what I was saying they should do!"

Well guess what? Thousands are people are dead, because THEY didn't try to stop it HARD ENOUGH.

That's the bottom line. The bottom line SUCKS. But that's the plain godawful truth of it.

Thousands of people are dead. Because Bush wasn't stopped. By the people who COULD HAVE STOPPED HIM.

So I say TO HELL with the people who could have stopped him and did not!

May they all enjoy their long toilet right into oblivion.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's Nice to Be Right
There's a certain self-righteous, fiery high that comes from it that is tough to beat.

Yet not everyone is going to be as prescient as you were in the case of Iraq. Clark was a military analyst for CNN, and a military man all his life, I'm sure he saw things in a much less black-and-white fashion than you did. Foreign policy is like that.

I suspect Clark still would have leaned on Iraq, but he would not have invaded like Shrub did. Shrub's hasty decision and sloppy execution and lack of aftermath planning were the biggest crimes here.

DTH
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. yes, it was obvious to me also that Bush was going to go ahead
no matter what.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. How do you propose they should have done that then?
Clark was only a military commentator on CNN, and the other dem candidates lacked the needed clout and influence to pull it off. Bush went to war despite the fact that in ONE DAY 2 MILLION people worldwide marched against the war and the fact that people were very unsure of support in this country. Think about it, the only way Bush could have been stopped would have been for half the GOP to defect to the left side of the aisle and vote no, and even then he would still try to do it anyway, via the War Powers Act. Nothing could realistically have stopped him.
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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. Great post
Thanks for giving that piece some airtime, DTH.


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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. dont' be fooled
Even though his statement was heavily qualified, I was disappointed to read about Clark's "probable" vote in favor of the war. It completely rocked my worldview, since everything I'd learned about Clark had led me to the strong and supported conclusion that he would NOT have voted for the war.

there's no "probable" to it:
At one point, Ms. Jacoby interrupted the interview, which included four reporters who were traveling on the general's jet, to make certain that General Clark's views on the original Iraq resolution were clear.

"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."


from http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html


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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. He Also Said a Lot More Than That!
He said he would've pushed for a second authorization requirement for the President to come back. He said he was opposed to the rush to war, and thought inspectors should be given more time.

He said a ton, and even though the whore media picked and chose the "best" sound bites, it's clear he has thought deeply on this difficult subject, and is not a warmonger, despite your best efforts to paint him as one.

DTH
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. The rest have said the same
Why can't you appreciate that the rest 'thought deeply on this difficult subject' as well? Instead, you just brush them off as yes voters. I don't get it at all.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm Not Brushing Anyone Off
You'll note that I said I didn't like Clark's response, just like I didn't like the yes voters final decision all that much.

I also said I wouldn't disqualify any of them for this one issue, especially when I know they have thought deeply on the subject.

DTH
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Okay,
I'll take your word for it. But your post says you do not excuse the yes voters. But then you go on to expound on Clark and it sure sounds like you are willing to excuse Clark's position which is nearly identical to the rest. But again, I'll just assume I misunderstood.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Thanks
From my original post above:

But neither do I consider a vote in favor of the Iraq War Resolution a disqualifying event.

To clarify, that's referring to all of the yes voters plus Clark, not Clark alone. I just happen to talk more about Clark because he's the main subject of my post. :-)

DTH
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Careful
Some posters get angry if you challenge them. (Too shy though, it will come by PM)

------------
you punkass
From: newsguyatl
Date: Sep 19th 2003
you're pathetic
-----------
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. Totally illogical
First you say "I do not excuse John Edwards, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman and Dick Gephardt for ultimately voting 'Yes.'"

But Clark himself says,

"The answer to all these questions is yes, if we have the time. Well, we do. The key issue about Iraq has never been whether weshould act if Saddam doesn't comply with U.N. resolutions anddisarm. Rather, the problems are how we should act, and when."

Which is exactly what all of these people, except Lieberman, said all along. And even Dean said Saddam was a threat and we might have to use military action to deal with him. The question was the same. When and how. Graham simply wanted to go to war with other countries. He wanted to lob a few missiles into Syria in May.

Kucinich is the anti-war candidate. If you don't think we should have ever even considered war with Iraq, then he's the only one to support. Every other attempt to shade the argument to support your candidate is pure bullshit.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. He Also Said He Agreed With Dean's Position
I also agree with you on Kucinich.

All that said, I am NOT someone who agrees with Kucinich in that we never should have considered war under any circumstances whatsoever. I was opposed to the war, but I am not that much of a pacifist or a purist, personally. No offense to those who are.

DTH
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Which position?
The one where Saddam was a threat and we might need to go to war to resolve it. Or the new and improved position where he was against the war all along. If the war has been a 'success' and peace reigned in the region, he'd just point to the tougher quotes he made on the subject. And he'd be running on the issue d'jour, just like he is now. I really don't have alot of respect for 'ol Howard. I have more respect for Lieberman, at least he stands by his beliefs.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I Like Dean and Believe Him Sincere in His Opposition to the Iraq Invasion
I think he understands the complexities of the situation (although perhaps not so much as Clark), and has a reasonable position.

The difference between them appears to me not so much a matter of substance, but of presentation. Dean is much better at it than Clark was yesterday. Hopefully, that will change.

Regardless, Clark will be much better able to weather the attacks of the RW due to his status as a General.

DTH
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