What is everybody's beef with john kerry?

[Demboy04]

Im just wondering what your views are on him, IMO I honestly feel he is the best candidate but obviously, free and open society......yadda yadda yadda.....what do you guys think of him

[MercutioATC]

1. I'm voting Dean, but I like some of Kerry's ideas.

The IWR and Patriot Act votes make a difference to me, though. If Kerry had just said "I made a mistake" I'd have no problem. Trying to defend his vote, however, lost him a lot of respect with me.

[wuushew]

2. He voted incorrectly on the Iraq war resolution

and has not admitted to being wrong or being duped.

His inability to apologize raises serious questions about what type of president he would be.

[wyldwolf]

20. He admitted to being duped...

...said the "president" mislead us all.

[wuushew]

39. Maybe I did not see the see the same MTP that you did

I came away more confused than ever.

[Andy_Stephenson]

53. No excuse!

We all knew there were no WMD's...Will Pitt and Scott Ritter told us so.

[CMT]

3. John Kerry is a good guy

I didn't like his vote on the Iraqi War or his vote for the Bush tax cuts, but there is much to admire in his overall record. I feel John Kerry is just a little too aloof to go over well in the general election. I'm not sure he really connects with voters.

[George_Bonanza]

6. The tax cuts

He voted against the Bush tax cuts because he didn't agree with 90% of it. However, if he becomes president, he wants to keep the 10% he agrees with. But when he was first voting for it, the bads greatly outnumbered the goods. When the power is in his hands, he'll have the ability to strip the bad 90% and keep the 10% he agreed with all along. What is so difficult to understand about this?

[blm]

24. He voted AGAINST Bush's tax cut.

.

[OneBlueSky]

4. I thought Kerry might be the strongest candidate, but . . .

I don't see him really connecting with joe six-pack . . . comes across as too patrician or something . . . can't quite put my finger on it . . . I can overlook the Iraq vote since he's pretty good on most issues, but I fear that the charisma I thought was there maybe was an illusion . . .

[Fixated]

5. ....

I don't like him. He asked for swiss cheese on a cheesesteak. His camp is the one that attacks others the most (his actual campaign people). He doesn't seem like someone I could sit and talk to. He seems confused about positions.

[George_Bonanza]

8. All those people that come to talk to him

Seem to think that he's a very personable man. From college students that forsake big football games, to retired grandparents.

[wuushew]

11. I just did a google on cheesesteak sandwich and there is no standard

I saw cheddar, provolone or american listed as possible cheeses.


I am not from the east coast is swiss cheese not allowed?

[Fixated]

13. ....

Ya goddamn right it ain't allowed. I live right next to Philly, I know these things. No one, NO ONE, gets swiss on a cheese steak. It's just disgusting.

[azrak]

28. OMFG!

That has to be the most intelligent reason I ever heard to vote for someone.

[VolcanoJen]

66. Don't forget Cheese Whiz!!

Isn't that the "proper" way to order a Philly Cheese Steak?

And, for the record, I still believe, and will likely always believe, that Kerry is one of the good guys. He's a Democratic Party icon, a personal hero of mine, and he may very well get my vote when all is said and done.

[Uzybone]

32. He asked for swiss cheese on a cheesesteak?

tell me you are kidding? How much more shallow can you get?

[Capn Sunshine]

7. I Like Kerry

I think he's a good, solid Senator who is definitely presidential material.

That said, he is missing "something" which is causing the lack of traction in his campaign. I honestly don't know what it is.

Howard Dean HAS that j'ne ce quois. I'm with him until the inauguration.

But most Dean supporters like Kerry, despite the flaming that goes on here.

I wish you all the best.

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. My problem with John Kerry

....is his affiliation with Skull n Bones, the very same 'secret society' which brought us three generations of the most corrupt family in the history of American politics, Prescott, George Sr and George Jr. Add to that the recent revelations that PNAC signators and "Shock and Awe" strategists are advising the Kerry campaign, and that can't possibly add up to anything good. Hell, I would welcome a Vietnam vet to challenge the deserter chickenshit Bush Jr, but not if he's committed to continuing the very same global fascist policies. And if that's who is advising Kerry, then that's likely what he would do as President.

[George_Bonanza]

10. Funny, Skull and Bones

Hasn't prevented him from voting more liberal than 89% of the senate throughout his career. Or obtaining skyhigh marks from environmental groups. Or exposing the ugly side of American politics like Iran-Contra. If Skull and Bones somehow brainwashed him back when he was a student, they sure screwed up.

[Fla_Democrat]

23. It's part of his 'deep cover'

He plays the liberal, voting as necessary to secure the votes of the left to elect him to office. Then when all is quiet......... BAM!, out comes the executive orders, presidential decrees, etc.
The Republicans point to the actions and say "See, you just can't trust Democrats in office", thus effectively destroying the Democratic party. :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

Hmmm, and they say I don't pay attention. :evilgrin:

[Scimmio]

61. aided by his Propaganda Minister, Garry Trudeau...

I mean, they must have worked out the plot in the depths of the Skull and Bones mausoleums decades ago, knowing that it would take time to establish almost fool-proof covers.

[FauxNewsBlues]

41. Skull & Bones: Simpsons episode.

Reminds me of that episode of the Clinton's where two aliens took over the bodies of Clinton and Dole, and people had to choose between them.

I am not bashing Kerry. I like his record mostly. I just don't know if it is healthy for our democracy to have a choice between Skull & Bones guy A and Skull & Bones guy B.

No, Kerry hasn't, but alot of his co S&B people, have ended up doing some really evil shit. Kerry does refuse to denounce his membership, or to shed light on it. It is close to a deal breaker for me. Google up a membership list for this club, and it does disturb me, and I am not a tin foil type. A high percentage of people from this group have become very powerful and very wicked.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. i was a girl scout - but don't judge me

by the affiliations i had in my ...(oh my, henry hyde) "youth"-

Judge a man (or woman) by their actions- not associations?

Kerry DID vote to allow the pres. to go to war- i'm not convinced that were HE in that position at the time, that HE would have seen war as positive, or necessiary- But he chose to support the administrations request-
i wish he hadn't- but i understand his prediciment. Gov. Dean, wasn't in the same position that senators and congressmen were, and was more able to simply state his personal belief- had he been in Kerry's shoes, i'm not so sure he wouldn't have had a slightly different perspective.

What i DON'T like about Howard Dean, is that he seems to want to appear as the Democratic version of G.W.Bush- a bit cocky and arrogant (and even sharing most of his views) i find his attitude...as offensive as Bush's at times- Sad that good people emulate some of the worst traits of the opposition, thinking it will win 'points'=

(i'll likely vote for who ever ends up being our candidate though)

[sham]

34. praytell, girl scout

Which of Bush*'s views does Howard Dean share?

Seriously.

No, really. I need to know. I laughed at Joe Lieberman when he implied that Dean would be worse than Bush*. But if I'm wrong, please show me the evidence so I can go throw myself under a bus.

[Bluerthanblue]

47. my poor communication skills....

are showing Sham.

What i was attempting to say was that *I* share most of Dean's views- not that Dean shared the same 'views' as Bush-
i can clearly see how you took me to mean that Dean=Bush on ISSUES- not what i meant. What i meant was that although i agree with Dean on very many issues, i find his approach, and demanor NEARLY as offensive as G.W.'s-

however- i would vote for Dean over Bush ANYDAY- EVERYDAY-!!!!-

Stay away from those busses, even IF Dean proves not to be what you hope him to be- The world needs more committed people, not fewer.

sorry for my poor writing.

[Eloriel]

44. Dean doesn't do anything because

he "thinks" it will win points. That's Kerry's territory.

Eloriel

[blm]

45. Except change his rhetoric on the Mideast

from promising Sharon more billions for defense than even Bush and saying Palestine must be demilitarized, to appeasing his critics by saying he'd be evenhanded. Of course, he then said that he shouldn't have udes that term after he was once again criticized.

Please, Eloriel, who are you trying to fool?

[Julien Sorel]

65. Herself. And it is really frightening to watch.

I'm wondering if a deprogrammer will be necessary after reading some of her recent posts.

[Bluerthanblue]

48. and you are saying

what exactly Eloriel?

That Dean is angelic? i don't buy that- i sure hope you REALLY don't either-

Look at Kerry's statements made last spring when the war was breathing down our necks- Kerry DID speak out- saying that we should never go to war, except when we had to-

Please read this article from jan. of this year- He wasn't nearly as 'hyped' to go to war as you might be led to 'recall' by the stupid politicking everyone seems bound to continue to 'approve'.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/la-na-kerry24jan24.story

Many politicians in ALL 'parties' voted for things since 9/11 that i can't stomach- and behaved in ways which infuriated and frustrated me- fear does odd things to people-

some of us weren't as 'innocent' about tragedy, and disaster, as the majority of America proved to have been.

[oasis]

46. Who do you say are advising the Kerry campaign? Can I get a name or two?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Zanti Regent]

62. I have a MAJOR problem with Skull & Bones

I prefer someone who is not connected with a secret society. Just looking at tll the Skull & Bones members who are in the White House right now scares me to death.

I prefer Clark, Bob Graham, Dean, Carol or Kucinich to Kerry. They won't bend to the whims of Skull & Bones!

[JI7]

12. i like john kerry and am supporting him

i am a kerry supporter and i will vote for him in the elections.

[Renew Deal]

14. Weak

I support Clark. I was hoping he would be my #2. I was really disapointed in him after the MTP interview. He looked confused and wouldn't give straight answers. Somehow the answer to a question was both possible answers. Yes and No. Very frustrating.

[LSdemocrat]

15. I think he's just been in DC too long

He seems to have lost what made him want to get into politics. He seems, to me anyway, too willing to say what he thinks his listeners want to hear, especially on the Iraq war resolution (check out this Doonesbury cartoon that basically sums it up: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20030213 )

Not that he's a bad guy or anything he just seems to have lost his way much like Al Gore during much of his 2000 campaign.

And finally, quite frankly after seeing some of his speeches and recent debates I don't connect with him and I'm not particularly inspired by the guy.

If he wins the nomination, I'll gladly vote for him, but I really see nothing to get excited about with Kerry.

[MrPrax]

16. Swiss Cheese

yeah I read that 'snipe' and thought---a traditional philly steak sandwich is made with cheez whiz??

Why wouldn't you aks for Swiss and did the Media ask the 'owner' if Swiss was on the menu for anyone or just candidates...

Smacked of Carville's ambush...asking candidates, 'what does a loaf of bread cost?'

LOL...
given Kerry's connections on the Intelligence cttm. and smacking down ollie and the boys...he might be well placed to 'compromise' the Opposition...

after Dennis...Kerry might not be a bad choice

[BeatleBoot]

17. No beef here

He's a good man.

All the candidates are good and we all should be proud as heck to have such a field of talent to choose from.

I'll be voting for Kerry.

Digging Wesley Clark, too. He might just be the guy to balance out a Dem ticket that may seem too left for the moderates and independents.

[PAMod]

18. I have no beef with Senator Kerry...

I don't think anyone was happy with the Democrats that enabled Bush to do whatever he wanted in Iraq, but given the poll numbers at that time, and given the fact that the Bushies were lying to everybody, I'm guessing Kerry and others just got caught up in it.

Kerry's problem is his timing. There are just better candidates in the race, that's all. If the field was only the insiders, Kerry's numbers would be better, I think.

He's trying to catch lightning in a bottle in '04, but it is just not his time.

One thing I'm concerned about is that his campaign will turn very nasty in New Hampshire if his numbers don't improve. His comments aimed at Governor Dean don't smack of desperation, but rather seem to indicate a feeling that Dean has stolen the support owed to Kerry. That is why they have not worked thus far. The core of people in NH that are pulling for Dean might never have been in Kerry's or any other member of congress' camp.

If he is able to knock off Dean with a negative message it won't bode well for the Democrats in '04. A lot of newcomers into the process will become disenchanted, if not downright pissed off by that sort of thing.

All that said, John Kerry is a great American and has been an outstanding legislator and if he is the nominee I will support him.

[deutsey]

19. I was an early supporter of Kerry

Back in late 2001, he was one of the few Dems actually speaking out against Bush. I wrote to him and encouraged him to run for president and even got a nice, handwritten note back from him.

Then he voted for the Iraq resolution (which I actually gave him a pass on because I respected the fact that he's a combat veteran and believed he wasn't making his vote lightly); then he voted for the Patriot Act and tax cuts, and, frankly, I just got tired of waiting for him to match his position on these kinds of votes with his rhetoric.

I say this more in deep disappointment than in anger or spitefulness.

I'll still support Kerry if he gets the nomination, but I have serious doubts about Kerry's ability to energize a broad coalition of Americans to take down Bush and his strong far right/corporate coalition. Kerry's personally got lots of bucks and he's apparently got the Democratic establishment and traditional NGO groups (e.g., firemen) coming out for him, but I fear this path is woefully out of touch for what's needed this time around to beat Bush.

We don't need more politicos coming out and doing endorsement photo ops, nor do we need more groups like police and firemen and whatever coming out and endorsing a candidate. These are important, don't get me wrong, but to really guard against another theft of an election, we need an epidemic of democratic action to break out among regular people in this country. People who normally pay little to no attention to politics. Bush Co. will be less confident that they can pull off another theft if a lot of people who normally don't get into politics much or at all are motivated to be involved in the process. If it's mostly the same old politicians and groups involved then Bush Co. can easily demonize them or distract people's attention from them. But if the people themselves are involved and smell something fishy, it'll be harder for Bush to distract them.

Thus far, I just don't see where Kerry is doing that, energizing people to action. In fact, I get emails from his campaign (as I say, I was an early supporter, so I'm on their list even though I support Dean), and these emails always seem to be about fundraising. Every one I've seen has, anyway. Raising money is fine, but where's the call to action to organize, to get involved in your community, in the larger political process? I just get the impression it's the same losing message the Dems keep using: Send us your money, vote for us at the polls, but don't worry about getting involved in determining where we're going as a party. We're in charge of that.

Well, that's probably more than you wanted to know, but that's why I have problems with Kerry. Because I do respect him on many levels, I refuse to smear him and I am prepared to work for him if he wins the nomination. But I support Dean and am working even harder to help him get the nomination.

Either way, I hope whomever wins can defeat Bush, or else we're in a world of trouble.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. Thanks for sharing all those good thoughts and criticisms

I can now better appreciate where you (and a few others here) are coming from.

RE: Calls to action and organize for Kerry- Personally, I simply find myself spending more and more time trying to convince people I know, and especially people I DON'T know, that they need to get beyond Kerry's Boston accent and patrician air, and they'll see a conscientious and dedicated public servant who will fight for the middle class. They'll see someone who was never afraid to fight the battles that needed to be fought. And they should know he has the knowledge, the experience, and the temperment to be a great president.

I find these conversations and persuasion action in themselves.

[Octafish]

40. Dwayne's the BEST!

Deutsey knows who's who and what's what. The guy's been battling the BFEE as long as I've known his work (almost 2 years) here on DU and BuzzFlash — and judging from the character revealed through his writings from waaaaaaay back farther than that. His analyses of Kerry are worth listening to, as are his reasons for backing his horse.

Now if we could only get him into the Deanie intervention program ... Nurse Duckett! Bring the hypo, make it a double! This one's stubborn.

[deutsey]

69. HA!

You'll never take me alive, Octafish!

:hi:

[deutsey]

70. I agree....

We've got to stay in dialouge with each other, because we're going to need each other when a candidate is nominated.

We can have our differences (we're not the GOP, after all), but we've also got to have respect for each other and a feeling that we all are really in this together.

And I think any effort made on behalf of a campaign is the lifeblood of democracy. Whether that's talking to people about a candidate, tabling, going to rallies, etc., it's all worthwhile.

Keep fighting the good fight!

[MGKrebs]

22. Voted wrong on the Iraq war.

Otherwise, I generally like his policies. If there were not an electable candidate available who opposed the war, I would consider him. Beyond that, he is just not inspiring to me. Once again, if there were not a candidate who IS inspiring to me, I would consider him.

[KaraokeKarlton]

25. I could have liked him if he weren't behaving like an inept ass

He's not running because he wants the job. He's running for the status and power, and it's obvious. All his campaign seems to care about is portraying some "cool" image of Kerry. Instead of criticizing opponents on issues, he attacks them personally with his lame "not qualified to be president" crap. I'm thoroughly disgusted and offended everytime I see him being referred to as "JFK" because I know damn well the ONLY reason his campaign is doing that is to try to remind people of Kennedy. I'm sorry, but trying to capitalize politically on the moniker of a past president who was killed in office is no better than Bush trying to capitalize politically on 9/11. It's very offensive. Kerry also lacks political courage. He won't do or say anything until he sees how people are reacting. That's not leadership, that's political insecurity. The man lacks the political confidence needed to step up and lead. The final straw for me was when he tried to portray Dean as being anti-Jew. After that one I knew Kerry was nothing but a sackless wonder who doesn't deserve my vote.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kanola]

26. Not my first choice but will definitley back him as the nominee

John Kerry has been a great senator and I don't have too much of a problem with the war and Patriot Act vote (don't like them). His advisers need to work with him to answer questions directly and to the point. He tends to go off topic and when he does that IMHO he sounds too much like and inside the beltway politician. I think with most Americans that is a turn off, and if he continues he will be tuned out.

Although, I thought he did quite well at the Black Caucus debates.

[skewthat]

29. My Beef...Supported War Resolution, Non-Populist.

.

[Octafish]

37. Are you familiar with his Senate record?

Kerry has a 19-year track record of supporting Liberal and progressive causes and policies. Like a traditional Democrat, Kerry believes in the power of government to make life better for ALL Americans through Public Education, Social Security, and Medicare. He has won accolades for his work in support of higher education, children's programs like Head Start, protecting the natural environment, organized labor and worker's rights, small businesses, farmers, Civil Rights, Human Rights, Women's Reproductive Rights, and many other "populist" areas.

Don't believe me, the Americans for Democratic Action gave John Kerry a 92% Lifetime Rating for his Senate voting record.

http://www.adaction.org/MeetTheCandidates/Kerry/kerry.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. I love John Kerry as a Senator but these are my honest critiques

The strategy that he and others followed on the war vote was indefensible since they knew Bush would not return to them for further consultation, therefore they abdicated their role as keepers of the purse strings.

In campaigning, he appears weak in debates with little or no fire compared to the manner in which he conducts himself in the Senate.

He does not connect with people when he speaks and does not pack enough power into his debate.

He almost appears to not wish to win. I say this as a long time fan and as one who believes Kerry would be the best environmental president in decades.

[gulliver]

31. "He almost appears to not wish to win."

It seems like that to me too.

[blm]

43. Well, you could chalk it up to the coarsening of politics

and to the positive reaction of a certain internet element to the language used in the online political community. Thanks to the dregs of the right who have infected MOST political discourse in recent years.

What does it say about Democrats who are so willing to bypass such a thoughtful and intellectually sound candidate? What does it say about those who reward the coarseness?

From the recent Salon article:
>>>>>>>>
Still, the pre-mortems on Kerry may be premature. He continues to have enormous potential -- as a candidate, and as a president.

Former Kerry speechwriter Bill Woodward remembers the senator as "intellectually curious," interested in talking through complex positions on issues such as affirmative action and education reform. Former Clinton White House aide Minyon Moore recalls: "When the president invited senators to talk policy in his residence, Kerry always stood out. His depth, his knowledge of policy issues, his thoughtful line of questioning was always thorough and impressive. I said, at that time, This guy can be president."

But, to become president, Kerry will have to be more persuasive, and that means finding the voice he had years ago.

Long before Clark or Dean were well known, Kerry was seen as an eloquent orator, with a commanding presence. "When he was younger, he was a speaker of style and grace," recalls University of Massachusetts journalism professor Ralph Whitehead. "He modeled himself after President Kennedy. Since then, the country has changed, the culture has changed, public discussion has become coarser, and Kerry seems frozen in time."
>>>>>>>

[Demboy04]

54. blah blah blah

for all this bs about his iraq vote, read below

he has plenty of fire in his debates, just because he doesnt run his mouth like dean doesnt mean he doesnt have fire

having actually served his country, Im pretty sure he connects with a shitload of people, including members of our armed forces

he appears to not want to win? excuse me? I just wont even say anything.....the man spends time, effort and money campaigning and he would do all this for nothing......nm I just wont say anything.....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. You're the one who asked for an honest opinion

and you handled receiving it so poorly, I have no interest in your response below.

You aren't doing your guy any favors by responding in such a fashion to someone who said I LIKED HIM.

Recontextualize the vote that occurred all you want...I did for a while until I realized a shitload of people died and I will be paying for their deaths in many many ways for years to come.

BTW, if Kerry gets the nomination I will vote for him...but don't think it's due to your diplomatic skills.

In fact, try not to talk to people about him...you'll only piss them off. :D

:eyes:

[OrdinaryTa]

33. Kerry's War Vote

Kerry's vote supporting the war came at a time when we desperately sought Democratic leadership against the war. It was a crushing disappointment to those of us who'd been out in the streets hoping to stop Bush from carrying out this unnecessary slaughter. Kerry still hasn't given a satisfactory explanation for his vote. Surely he can't claim to have been taken in .... how long has he been a Senator?

Kerry hasn't repudiated that vote; in fact he still defends it. This man of violence should not become President with Democratic votes. We counted on him to defend humane values, but he failed to do this. He should withdraw his candidacy for the good of the party.

[Octafish]

38. Kerry voted to protect America.

After 911, the CIA and administration provided all sorts of info stating that Saddam was a threat to the USA. That's what the US and the UN had been saying since 1998. As a Senator, he voted on the side of caution.

[OrdinaryTa]

49. Don't Be Naive

Twenty-three Senators saw the Iraq war for the fraud that it was. What was wrong with Kerry that he didn't see it, too? He's no leader, he's just a politician looking out for himself. He should withdraw from the race for the good of the party.

[Demboy04]

50. howard dean should keep his mouth shut for the good of the party

and that's a fact

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

60. That sounded an awful like an opinion

Maybe you should visit dictionary.com

[Demboy04]

51. exactly

can you really blame him for faulty intelligence? you are given what you are freakin given, he doesnt have to apologize when HE was lied to, it's not politics guys, it's common sense, dont get on your high horse and pretend you smell hypocrisy, because thats just your narrow viewpoint

[Octafish]

55. Kerry has to work within the US Government.

Kerry can't call Bush a LIAR in the Senate. He'd be censured by the GOP. What he can do is state he was misinformed by the CIA and the (p)resident and add that, if he was lied to by Bush, then he's going to be angry and will hold Bush accountable. And that's what Kerry said.

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, Demboy04! You might want to check out and in at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=360991&mesg_id=360991

Lots more DUers there who understand what Kerry is about and how he would make an outstanding President and CINC.

[Demboy04]

58. thanks a lot octafish

it feels good getting to learn from people and understand them, even if I think they're incredibly fucking wrong sometimes

[nolabels]

68. Is faulty intelligence analogous to the words > little or none

If so, I would even have a hard time pinning the blame on *, if you get the jest

[Egnever]

71. Lied to my ass

(Videotape, October 9, 2002):
SEN. KERRY: Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing weaponizing of a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles, such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers and covert operatives which would bring them to the United States itself.
In addition, we know they are developing unmanned aerial vehicles capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents.
According to the CIA’s report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that they are seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop them.
In the wake of September 11, who among us can say with any certainty to anybody that the weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater, a nuclear weapon?
(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Unmanned aerial vehicles...
SEN. KERRY: Sure.
MR. RUSSERT: ...a nuclear threat. Those are exactly the things that you suggested in New Hampshire President Bush had lied to you about.
SEN. KERRY: That’s precisely the point. That is exactly the point I’m making. We were given this information by our intelligence community. Now, either it was stretched politically in the many visits of Dick Cheney to the CIA and the way in which they created a client relationship, but the information we were given, built on top of the seven and a half years of what we knew he was doing, completely justified the notion that you had to respond to give the president the right to put inspectors in. The president said
when he put them in “War is not inevitable.” Colin Powell said to us, “The only rationale for going to war was weapons of mass destruction,” and it was legitimate to hold Saddam Hussein accountable to get the inspectors in. I’m saying to you that I don’t believe this president did the job of exhausting the remedies available to make us as strong as we should have been in doing that and certainly didn’t do the planning to be able to win the peace in the way that we need to. And I still think we can do it, Tim, but we’ve got to
get about the business of doing it.
MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate...
SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.
MR. RUSSERT: ...which said the CIA had a low confidence in Saddam Hussein using weapons of mass destruction or transferring the terrorists. And the State Department, which is included in the national intelligence estimate, said there was not a compelling case, that he reconstituted his nuclear program.
SEN. KERRY: I didn’t base it on the nuclear, but the most important and compelling rationale were the lack of inspections and the non-compliance of Saddam Hussein. Even Hans Blix at the United Nations said he is not in compliance.
MR. RUSSERT: Were you misled by the intelligence agencies? Were you duped?
SEN. KERRY: No, we weren’t

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wuushew]

59. You forget that dems supported the Biden-Lugar ammendment

so there were alternatives available, For all I care the debate could have gone on for months or years it really didn't matter. The only thing that could have justified a rush vote to effectively destroy the sovreignity of Iraq would have been a imminent military threat to the United States. Sources involved admit this was never seriously believed. Kerry should have been patient and deliberative instead he signed a blank check.

[oasis]

64. Demboy04, I admire your fire. Welcome to DU.

I'm for Kerry too and we need all the voices we can leading up to his eventual nomination. A word of advice, I would cool it on what could be percieved as personal attacks so that your voice is heard and you don't risk having your posts deleted.

Again, I admire your fighting spirit and welcome to DU. :toast:

[Demboy04]

78. yea you're right

as of now, I will no longer carry out personal attacks but I will freakin flame the hell out of you if your argument sucks, period, that will never change

[Egnever]

72. Sry but john had the same reports that shrub is being nailed for

(Videotape, October 9, 2002):
SEN. KERRY: Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing weaponizing of a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles, such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers and covert operatives which would bring them to the United States itself.
In addition, we know they are developing unmanned aerial vehicles capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents.
According to the CIA’s report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that they are seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop them.
In the wake of September 11, who among us can say with any certainty to anybody that the weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater, a nuclear weapon?
(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Unmanned aerial vehicles...
SEN. KERRY: Sure.
MR. RUSSERT: ...a nuclear threat. Those are exactly the things that you suggested in New Hampshire President Bush had lied to you about.
SEN. KERRY: That’s precisely the point. That is exactly the point I’m making. We were given this information by our intelligence community. Now, either it was stretched politically in the many visits of Dick Cheney to the CIA and the way in which they created a client relationship, but the information we were given, built on top of the seven and a half years of what we knew he was doing, completely justified the notion that you had to respond to give the president the right to put inspectors in. The president said
when he put them in “War is not inevitable.” Colin Powell said to us, “The only rationale for going to war was weapons of mass destruction,” and it was legitimate to hold Saddam Hussein accountable to get the inspectors in. I’m saying to you that I don’t believe this president did the job of exhausting the remedies available to make us as strong as we should have been in doing that and certainly didn’t do the planning to be able to win the peace in the way that we need to. And I still think we can do it, Tim, but we’ve got to
get about the business of doing it.
MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate...
SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.
MR. RUSSERT: ...which said the CIA had a low confidence in Saddam Hussein using weapons of mass destruction or transferring the terrorists. And the State Department, which is included in the national intelligence estimate, said there was not a compelling case, that he reconstituted his nuclear program.
SEN. KERRY: I didn’t base it on the nuclear, but the most important and compelling rationale were the lack of inspections and the non-compliance of Saddam Hussein. Even Hans Blix at the United Nations said he is not in compliance.
MR. RUSSERT: Were you misled by the intelligence agencies? Were you duped?
SEN. KERRY: No, we weren’t

[sujan]

35. he is a war mongerer

thats all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. mongerer...is that a word?

[MercutioATC]

42. Yep, it's a little more monger...

:silly:

[oasis]

63. Does that mean Kerry mongers longer?

:dunce:

[OrdinaryTa]

75. He Doesn't Mong, He Caves

The actual warmonger is George Bush. John Kerry didn't mong the war, he caved. The difference between caving and monging is significant because if Bush hadn't monged, Kerry couldn't have caved.

Still, caving is almost as bad as monging. We expected leadership from guys claiming to be Democratic leaders, but Kerry didn't show any. If he caves now, he'll certainly mong later on. And we'll have voted in a warmonger. Sacre bleu!

[Egnever]

73. Everything I dislike about kerry is summed up right here

(Videotape, October 9, 2002):
SEN. KERRY: Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing weaponizing of a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles, such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers and covert operatives which would bring them to the United States itself.
In addition, we know they are developing unmanned aerial vehicles capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents.
According to the CIA’s report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that they are seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop them.
In the wake of September 11, who among us can say with any certainty to anybody that the weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater, a nuclear weapon?
(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Unmanned aerial vehicles...
SEN. KERRY: Sure.
MR. RUSSERT: ...a nuclear threat. Those are exactly the things that you suggested in New Hampshire President Bush had lied to you about.
SEN. KERRY: That’s precisely the point. That is exactly the point I’m making. We were given this information by our intelligence community. Now, either it was stretched politically in the many visits of Dick Cheney to the CIA and the way in which they created a client relationship, but the information we were given, built on top of the seven and a half years of what we knew he was doing, completely justified the notion that you had to respond to give the president the right to put inspectors in. The president said
when he put them in “War is not inevitable.” Colin Powell said to us, “The only rationale for going to war was weapons of mass destruction,” and it was legitimate to hold Saddam Hussein accountable to get the inspectors in. I’m saying to you that I don’t believe this president did the job of exhausting the remedies available to make us as strong as we should have been in doing that and certainly didn’t do the planning to be able to win the peace in the way that we need to. And I still think we can do it, Tim, but we’ve got to
get about the business of doing it.
MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate...
SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.
MR. RUSSERT: ...which said the CIA had a low confidence in Saddam Hussein using weapons of mass destruction or transferring the terrorists. And the State Department, which is included in the national intelligence estimate, said there was not a compelling case, that he reconstituted his nuclear program.
SEN. KERRY: I didn’t base it on the nuclear, but the most important and compelling rationale were the lack of inspections and the non-compliance of Saddam Hussein. Even Hans Blix at the United Nations said he is not in compliance.
MR. RUSSERT: Were you misled by the intelligence agencies? Were you duped?
SEN. KERRY: No, we weren’t

Sory but this guy is trying to bullshit me. You had the same inteligence Mt. kerry that bush had but somehow bush lied to you about it? or is he saying here that he didnt bother to look at the inteligence and just took bushes word for what it said?

Truth is the dems wanted the issue off the table before the 2000 elections so they didnt apear weak on defense and you thought it was a good idea so you voted with that train of thought.

Sry But i was paying atention when all of that came down and no matter how you try to spin it I know exactly what went down. Your vote was made based on political strategy to try to seave dem seats. Quite possibly the most important vote of the year and you played politics with it.

I willl never forgive nor forget. Thank god people see through the kerry spin and I wont be forced to vote Kerry.

[nolabels]

74. Someone should send a letter to them G.I.s over there

Dear Troops,

In wake of needing political expediency, I decided to help in the effort to send your ass off to get shot at. Please don't hold it against me, for I desperately needed to do this to make myself look Presidential. I know you will understand and I thank you for your support

John :-(

[Mairead]

76. I suspect that Kerry's war vote will prove to have been his Chappaquiddick

and will cap his ambitions. When someone who was/is both a long-time supporter of his and a friend (Dr Randy Forsberg) files to stand against him in the Senate election purely because of his war vote, you know it's a serious issue.

And I think that's a shame, because, like Teddy, Kerry has a long, admirable record.

I suspect, too --and I'm not sure what this says about us, the voters-- that, as was true of Chappaquiddick, it's the trying-to-get-off-the-hook wiggling more than the original act that's causing most of the damage. The Kennedys tried to spin the whole accident, which turned it from a sad, unwise accident into something secretive and disgraceful. Kerry's campaign is trying to do something similar.

What would be the reaction, do you think, if Kerry took the approach 'Yes, I helped give Bush a blank check because I couldn't bring myself to believe he was a psychopath. But he abused my trust and the trust of other Senators. He revealed the nature of his administration for all to see, and so now I'm going to do my best to take that blank check away from him so that he can't maim and kill other innocent people next year to inflate his political fortunes!' Me, I think he'd suddenly find himself out in front by a large margin.

[OrdinaryTa]

77. Bush as Psychopath

Yes, I helped give Bush a blank check because I couldn't bring myself to believe he was a psychopath

Kerry has undoubtedly thought this one through in its entirety, and it's a loser. The real problem here is that Kerry took his chances on the outcome of the war, and he lost the bet. He was afraid that if he voted against it and the war went well, he'd look like a chump. The opposite happened: he voted for it and the war went badly. Now he's stuck with his own record.

Kerry's supporters advocate that he should be forgiven for guessing wrong on a difficult issue, but that position is indefensible. It's almost Machiavellian in its cynicism. Had Kerry done the right thing - which he certainly knew in his heart - he'd be in fine shape in the presidential campaign. By putting his career ahead of the lives of thousands of people, he took himself out of the running. Decent people shun him. He should withdraw his candidacy for the good of the party.