Yikes, Clark is really scary!

[Pontus]

I remember a few months ago (I have not been here for a while due to moving to a new home) that I took some major abuse for posting pro-Lieberman threads. People were freaked because he supported the war in Iraq. Well, what the heck is going to be the reaction to Wesley Clark?

Remember the warmonger general who was "on the edge" in the movie Dr. Strangelove? Not the one played by George C. Scott but the one who was trapped in his office and firing on his own men while talking about floridation conspiracies and women stealing his "energy"? One can only wonder...

"General Clark's plea for Apache helicopters to be deployed was a source of friction with the Pentagon, and there was a celebrated dispute with the British commander General Sir Mike Jackson.

He ordered General Jackson to stop Russian troops from taking Pristina airport as combat came to a close.

"I'm not going to start the Third World War for you," the British commander is reported to have replied. "

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...114478.stm

If the NATO forces under Clark's orders HAD started killing Russian soldiers who had landed in Kosovo to take part in the "peacekeeping" in the region, Putin would have either lost credibility had he not fired back in some sort of way or he would have had to relaliate. Also, remember the Chinese hatred of America -- especially after the "mistake" of bombing the Chinese embassy in Serbia -- and one can just imagine what would have happened if Clark had got his way.

[disgruntella]

1. This quote is frequently taken out of context

Here is a piece which provides some context -- from a site by Clark supporters, yes, but it's linked to several other sources. Someone else might be able to provide some additional information.

http://www.theclarksphere.com/archives/000347.html#000347

Edit: on a second reading, there is an unnecessary diatribe (IMO) about Sir Mike Jackson up at the top of this article, but if you scroll down it does get to the point.

[Pontus]

2. .

Still leaves his judgements open to question. Also, I have seen this before -- when charges are made against a candidate go on a smear campaign against the person who questioned him. Jackson is now being made out to be the bad guy? Look, Jackson isn't running to be president of the USA, Clark is -- and I don't buy that the BBC and other media would be dealing with Clark's judgement in Kosovo and using Jackson as a source if Jackson is just a crazy British officer.

I would rather see Pat Buchanan as president than Wesley Clark. At least Buchanan is an isolationist and wouldn't antagonize the Chinese and Russians into a major conflict in the future. I do not want a return to the Cold-War or even see the creation of a "hot-war"!

Are people still going to say Leiberman is a bad choice?

[GalleryGod]

6. The Clark Choral Practice is Over-THERE!

:puffpiece: :wtf:

[BeatleBoot]

3. Clark was against the Iraq War

Plus I think he's only scary to the repukes.

First in his class at West Point. Valedictorian. Supreme Commander of NATO forces.

Clinton digs him. Clinton's people are behind him.

Plus the entire military thing is more likely to get the independents to come our way in this supposed 50:50 divided country of ours.

Dean/Clark, Kerry/Clark, Gephardt/Clark, Kucinich/Clark, Liebermann/Clark et cetera...

Or howzabout a Clark/Clinton ticket!

I would love to see Wesley debate President AWOLflightsuit

But I'm still voting for Kerry.

[scarface2004]

4. wasn t clark the guy...

in viet nam who took the handcuffed vc prisoner out to the middle of the street and shot him in the head??!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Know You Were Being Factetious

but it was a South Vietnameze soldier killing a VC...

[rasputin1952]

24. Actually, that was the Saigon Chief of Police/Security...

who shot the man in the head, after that individual had just killed a family. War, unfortunately does bring summary justice.

Although it was a horrific picture....you need to understand WHY that summary execution happened, under what circumstances, (Tet),; and you never saw the pictures where the NVA and VC had taken their sweet time torturing American soldiers: skinning them, disemboweling them, removing sexual organs ans shoving them in their mouths.

WAR SUCKS! But if I see a tortured American, (or ally), I'm gonna be one pissed off SOB, and I pity the bastard I find that did it!

[Zuni]

5. the Pristina airfield incident

Clark was afraid the Pro-Serb Russians were going to try to seize northern Kosovo and create a divided Kosovo a la Germany in 1945. He ordered British General Mike Jackson to park vehicles on the runway to prevent Russian planes from landing there.
Jackson felt this was provocation, although the Russians had lied to NATO about moving into Kosovo in the first place.
Clark never ordered an attack. He just wanted NATO to get the airfield before the Russians.

[rasputin1952]

25. Which. BTW...

is a very good stategic move on Clarks part.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

26. Wrong.

There were two seperate operations ordered by Clark. The first one was an attempt to seize the airport BEFORE the Russians arrived. Gen. Jackson refused this order because it would have neccesitated breaking the peace agreement with the Serbs by not waiting for Serb forces to evacuate the area before attempting to occupy it. This risked open fighting breaking out between NATO and Serb forces, and it would have been NATO's fault that the peace deal had been broken. Not exactly the best move in a peacekeeping operation.

The second plan was ordered by Clark after Jackson's first refusal allowed the Russians to occupy the airport. In this second plan, a helibourne assualt was to take place, supported by helicopter gunships, to evict the Russians from the airport, or at least create a NATO presence on the airfield. This plan envisaged possible fighting between NATO and Russian forces, but believed the military risks were acceptable because the Russians were outnumbered.

This was the one that Jackson said the famous "World War Three" line to.

So, your post, while having elements of the truth in it, is in fact incorrect.

[clar]

7. This has been hashed

to death here over the last couple of days. Posting it yet again serves no purpose except to rile folks up. If you really want to understand what happened at Pristina, research it. Read about it from different viewpoints and reach your own conclusion. I doubt you'll do that, as it seems your only purpose here is to bash Clark.

[BeatleBoot]

8. Thank you.

:+

[Pontus]

9. Maybe you need to research Clark more...

Please read this -- and then vote for Lieberman!

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jatras12.html

[Avalux]

10. What is your point?

Really...I am so tired of seeing the Kosovo thread posted along with a select others from unreliabe sources. It's tiresome and one of the reasons I haven't posted much lately. This place has become really nasty. I'm sorry a General (military) running as a Democrat scares you; step outside the box and LISTEN.

[bowens43]

16. Lieberman?

You're kidding right?

[Pontus]

32. Lieberman can be trusted...Clark cannot!

People here are still bashing Lieberman while singing praises for Clark? What issues motivate you to oppose Lieberman but sing love sonets for this general?

If Clark gets nominated I will find someone else to vote for -- anyone! Clark is a Johnny-come-lately Democrat who has less of a record on the issues than Arnie S. in California! Clark doesn't even know what side he's on in reference to the Iraq war. Come on -- tell me why Lieberman is a clone of Bush and then tell me why Clark isn't a rubber stamp for both the military-industrial complex as well as a puppet of the globalization-is-great limo Democrats!

[Donna Zen]

19. The research

will include his public call to look for Healthcare dollars by cutting into the Pentagon budget. Whoops! Doesn't fit your bash-clark mind set, you say? Well then, although we expect shoddy research backed by cut and paste sources, at least we can be assured of your thick-necked intellectual dishonesty ala the Rummy team's pre-war intelligence.

[Mairead]

11. Blair and the MOD must have thought Sir Mike was right

because after pulling him out of Clark's command, they promoted him and successively gave him 2 top command assignments. He's now Chief of the General Staff ( = Army Chief of Staff) and possibly in line to become the next Chief of the Defence Staff ( = Chairman of the Joint Chiefs)

[Avalux]

12. Whoopee!

Good for him! Maybe he should run for President of the USA?

[Julien Sorel]

13. I see. And all this because of the incident at Pristina.

Someone has been posting a link to logical fallacies here; you might want to track that person down and ask them to give you the link to the term 'post-hoc fallacy.'

[Mairead]

34. You might like to think it through a bit more

Point to anyone who has displeased Blair and been rewarded for it.

[Donna Zen]

20. Blair?

Since when is Blair an honest source?

[Mairead]

35. I don't think I said anything about honesty, did I?

[Jolene]

14. Some perspective

The general did not let himself be drawn in by questions as to whether he and NATO's then-Supreme Commander in Europe General Wesley Clark had a sharp disagreement over preventing Russian forces from making their dash for Prishtina airport. Jackson simply noted that "it is inevitable that in any chain of command there will be differences of view from time to time."

It is widely believed that Clark wanted Jackson to seize the airport, whereas the British general felt that the issue was not "worth starting World War III" with the Russians. According to persistent reports, Jackson used NATO's "red card option" that allows a commander to defer to his own government when displeased with a NATO order. (Patrick Moore)

http://www.rferl.org/balkan-report/2000/05/36-160500.html

I'm not going to help them

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/984143/posts

[Pontus]

15. Thanks Mairead -- and maybe BillyBunter...

You might consider that image is not what makes a good president. A great picture (what you posted) and all will not assure me that this guy won't get a war started with a country like China or Russia. At the very least the Russians probably don't like him -- and that could lead to stronger efforts by the Russians and Chinese to build an alliance. Russia needs money and they have plenty of advanced military equipment and researchers. China has people and money but is far behind the US in technology. Electing someone who is seen as a threat to Putin will lead to a possibly dangerous situation. There are those in the party who fear electing Lieberman because they say his credibility as a leader of the USA and being a Jew might be not as strong when dealing with Arabs -- but I say that he is in amuch better position with Arabs than Clark will be in with the Russians or the Chinese (anyone remember the "mistaken" bombing of the Chinese embassy in Serbia?).

[bowens43]

17. Oh come on

"There are those in the party who fear electing Lieberman because they say his credibility as a leader of the USA and being a Jew might be not as strong when dealing with Arabs "

This statement is absurd.

We don't want Lieberman because there is not an inch of difference between him and the idiot in the oval office. Lieberman is NOT a democrat despite the D next to his name on the ballot.

You're fear mongering. It won't work. It doesn't work when it comes from the idiot in the oval and doesn't work when it comes from you.

[Pontus]

18. You don't trust Lieberman...

but you trust a guy like Clark????Tell me sonething that makes you feel Clark would maintain peace more than Lieberman. And while you are at it, tell me how long Lieberman has served in the Democratic Party and how long Clark has even called himself a Democrat!

[RichV]

21. A new breed.

Wow, how about that. I think we have our first pro-Lieberman Clark-basher.

[rasputin1952]

27. Who cares?...

I once voted Republican...does it make any difference when person declares when he/she is a Dem?

Poor argument...besides...Lieberman is no more a Dem than Lott!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. "no more a Dem than Lott"

ouch


<slowly removes boot from ass>

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. That Doesn't Make Sense

The fact that Wes Clark had a dispute with the Russians over tactics during the Kosovo operation is going to poison American-Russian relations while Bush's scrapping of the ABM treaty and the invasion of Iraq, one of Russia's major trading partners didn't is silly....


Same thing for the bombing of the Chinese embassy... They were working off a bad map, many levels below Clark in the chain of command when they mistakenly bombed the embassy... I doubt the Chinese will hold it against us...

The Chinese and the Russians will support us when it's in their interest and oppose us when it's not... The goal of policy makers is to increase the former and reduce the latter....

P.S. I don't have the animus for Joe Lieberman on this board that many DUers have but I will say he is one of the worst candidates ,stylistically, I have ever seen... He lost a debate to that automaton , Dick Cheney, for chrissakes...

[dfong63]

31. wouldn't Clark also suffer from the same kind of prejudice?

There are those in the party who fear electing Lieberman because they say his credibility as a leader of the USA and being a Jew might be not as strong when dealing with Arabs -- but I say that he is in amuch better position with Arabs than Clark will be in with the Russians or the Chinese (anyone remember the "mistaken" bombing of the Chinese embassy in Serbia?).

if being Jewish hurt Lieberman in this area, then why doesn't it hurt Clark too?

[MGKrebs]

29. For you Clark supporters...

just a tip here from a Dean supporter.

Just because you covered this territory yesterday or the day before and you are tired of it, doesn't mean it will go away. There are thousands of people on this board, and many may not have seen those threads. If you want to support your candidate, don't give up so easily.

And if I may say, it helps me (in supporting Dean) to not think of it as specificlly responding to the poster in question, but that others who read the thread will see your responses and not just the question.

My guess is that these questions will hang around for weeks, if not months. If the Mods don't can the thread as a dupe, someone will have to rebut them every time or else you are ceding the issue. Make a folder with your answers so you can copy them easily.

I have been challenging the perception of Dean as 'too liberal", or "too conservative" or "not electable" virtually every day for weeks now.

Don't give up! You can make a difference!

[WillyBrandt]

30. Thank you

As a Clark supporter, I tell what I like about Dean--if he is elected, nothing worse drive the Pubs into hysterics any worse.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. THREE REBUTTALS

Stirling Newberry's double-barreled response:

http://www.theclarksphere.com/archives/000347.html#000347

Here is Eric Tam's moderate response:

http://antidotal.blogspot.com/2003_09_14_antidotal_archive.html#106364517252030920

My own take:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=335225

DTH