Punch Card Voting...

[imax2268]

So we all know what happend in Florida...and we see what's going on in California...

What is the big deal about punch card voting...is it really that hard to use...is it easily rigged...?
Is there a risk of tampering like the possible threat of the Diebold machines...?

The issue was brought up on another website forum and one freeper said...

Quote:
I have voted with a "punch card" voting system since I can remember. Why is it difficult for the liberal left to understand this process. It is very clear. The candidates name is listed and a big line with an arrow points to the hole you need to punch.
Are these people stupid????
I'll bet these voting practices would be ok if the Democrats would favor by it.
But all and all, the Democrats are saying that their constituents are stupid people.
End Quote...

I'm still waiting for a real answer so I thought I would pose the question here and get some DU'ers thoughts...

Anyone...?

[Booberdawg]

1. I wouldn't waste my time responding to a freeper

[FullCountNotRecount]

8. Why did Bush sign TX legislation backing hanging chads?

For recounts these were counted. The National media never picked up on this and CNN pulled the story from its site within hours.

It was a PR failure by Gore and the national party by not screaming this and exposing Bush's hypocrisy. Everyone I showed the Texas Law to were astounded they never heard Bush had signed the most liberal chad counting law in the nation.

[Booberdawg]

9. I remember the TX law at the time and was aware of the hypocrisy

I have a different perspective on Gore though and don't blame him for doing the best he could with all the cards stacked against him.

Here's a good article about this:

Blaming Al Gore - The Latest Crime of the Stolen Election

April 29, 2002

by Nancy Kuhn

The latest crime of the stolen 2000 Presidential election is blaming the victim of the stolen election - Al Gore - for the numerous illegal acts committed by the Bush campaign and its surrogates in their broad daylight theft of the Presidency. Both the evidence that Democrats.com has collected in its extensive investigation of the stolen election, and the election laws and procedures of the state of Florida, prove this "blame the victim" attack to be totally wrong.

As someone who lived in Florida for 16 years and volunteered on numerous Democratic campaigns while I lived there, I know both the disputed territory and Florida election law extremely well. It pains me greatly that two of the people involved in this unjust attack are none other than two of my favorite Democrats in the entire world, James Carville and Paul Begala. Also involved in this false attack is my favorite journalist Greg Palast, and two authors whose books do an outstanding job of documenting many of the illegal acts that the Bush campaign used to steal the election - Jeffrey Toobin and Jake Tapper.

These false attacks range from accusing Al Gore of not fighting hard enough to win in Florida to blaming Al Gore for the pro Bush media's unprecedented campaign against him. They include allegations that Gore abandoned African American voters who were illegally purged off of the Florida voting rolls, that he vetoed public demonstrations, that he did nothing to promote voting reform and counting all of the votes. The truth is that there was nothing short of starting a civil war that Al Gore could have done to have gotten the uncounted, legal votes in Florida counted.



http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/04/29_Stolen_Election.html

[punpirate]

2. Many of the problems related to punch cards...

... have nothing to do with the inherent insecurity of the system, but rather to maintenance and with ballot design.

With regard to maintenance, a number of the machines in Florida were found to have not had the trays that collect the chads emptied. As the chads pile up in the tray, it gets progressively harder to punch through the card.

The ballot design was not very good in Florida, but because it was reportedly approved by both the major parties, that became a non-issue. That and the instructions accompanying the ballot made it more confusing. Whether approved or not, it doesn't mean it was sensible or workable.

There's also an analysis done by someone of voting patterns, county by county with regard to overvotes, and suggests that the dipsy-doodle in the reported vote count at about 2:15 am may have been related to unknown persons intentionally spoiling votes for Gore by repunching them with a IBM card puncher set up to create more than one vote on the ballot, thus rendering it invalid:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.arizonademocracy.com/html/overvote.html&e=912

As usual, freepers get about 3% of the picture.

Cheers.

[imax2268]

3. Thanks...

[hueyfreeman]

4. punch cards work

If they don't....Then Bush must have won California.....Only dopes can't work the machines...

[cmd]

5. The punch card inventor predicts a come back

That was a little TV blurb I heard last night. I have no more info. I have no problem with punch cards. It seems maintenance was the problem in Florida. Of course, I have no problem with marking an X in a box. I just don't want black box voting with no paper backup.

[Buns_of_Fire]

7. Punch cards "per se" aren't the problem

I worked with them for several years (on the counting and tabulating end) in (guess where?) Florida. The few recounts we ever dealt with usually wound up with the recount results being identical with the initial count, and pretty close to the predicted results (back when there was exit polling). The current problem isn't in the cards, it's in the ancillary equipment.

(1) "Chad" buildup under a popular candidate's position on the ballot is a consideration. And yes, that can lead to a particular candidate's "spot" being harder to punch through (leading to the now-well-known "dimples" and "hanging chads"). That's a function of the poll workers not attending to the voting stations, which could actually be rectified by a relatively minor design change in the equipment itself. (Let the damned things fall off onto the floor, for all it's worth.)

(2) Could I design a punch-card ballot that's ambiguous enough so that a punch for candidate "A" is really for candidate "B"? Damn right I could (Jewish voters actually voting for Pat Buchanan in Palm Beach County? That was a master stroke!). Local Supervisors of Elections can nip that right in the bud, since they have final approval on ballot design.

[dofus]

6. The one time I had a punch card ballot

(in Phoenix, AZ, mid 1980's) it was obvious to me that that particular ballot had been designed to invalidate as many votes as possible. What infuriated me the most was that it was virtually impossible to go back and properly recheck your vote. Nor could you correct a mis-vote, at least not without getting a new ballot.