Gen. Clark's Radical Health Care Plan

[BJ]

(-snip-)
"Answering a health-care question shouted from the crowd, Clark said: "We've got to look at the existing system and we've got to take it forward. How we get from where we are right now to where we want to be with health care is a whole process that we've got to work to."
(-snip-)
Des Moines Register 9/20/03

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Congratulations

You posted the first anti-Clark thread of the morning

Thank you,

Brian

[Brucey]

2. At least people are talking about the horrible health care system we have.

Remember when the Clinton's try to change it? Hell, perfectly normal people all over the country were outraged that they might have to stand in line when they went to the doctor. Unlike now? When millions don't have any health coverage? I'm glad the issue is on the table and hope we can finally get somewhere on this. Health care costs have gone up more than 10% each year for the last how many years in a row? What is a government for? Just to invade other countries and snoop on it's citizens?

[scsifreak]

9. The Clinton Plan...

... wasn't much more than splitting the USA into two regions and giving control of government funds for health care to two large insurers. It was a complicated jumbled mess in the same vein as the Republican-created insanity at the Pentagon...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

30. Clark could come up with some half-assed corporate sponsored mess

or he could just adopt well thought out reasonable plans that have been proposed by Kucinich, Gephardt, Sharpton, Moseley-Braun. If Clark is a good politician, he'll use this opportunity to build his lacking Democratic party credential and make common cause with the Democratic candidates that have put a lot of thought into it.

Or, he could give a speech, and just accept a proposal from the drug companies and HMOs. His choice.

[EagleEye]

3. Clark not a Pol?

Are we sure he's not a politician?

[liberalnurse]

4. Clark comming into the ring this late in the game

does pose some disadvantages. He will need to comprise a healthcare team to come up with an inovative option. I surely want the healthcare industry to be upgraded and am always encouraged by more thinking caps. We will just have to wait and see...

[sandnsea]

5. It's a good article

I think his campaign site says he's for some sort of universal health care. He's not for repealing the middle class tax cut. And he can be for dealing with Saddam and against the war because he didn't have to actually vote on it. He's got the best views of each candidate all in a General's uniform.

[BJ]

6. Maybe I'm missing something

Taking a "look at the existing system" and taking "it forward" is some sort of universal health care? And because he didn't vote in the U.S. House or Senate he can have it both ways on Saddam and the war in Iraq? Gosh, my head is spinning.

[PsychoDad]

7. We have to consider the existing system...

Unless you propose we completely scrap the entire medical system as is in the US and start from nothing. (We could burn down the hospitals, shoot the doctors, hand the medical professors... a good clean start. Somewhat like Mao's cultural revolution)

Seriously... The existing system already has infrastructure that would be useful as is or if modified. What ever the aims of the Clark camp, They will need to consider the current system as a starting point for any change.

[BJ]

11. Ahh...reductio ad absurdum...

I think everyone can agree that the physical and personnel infrastructure of health care in the U.S. is among the world's finest.

That is not the problem.

The problem is who pays for what and how much.

The problem is how much control the insurance industry has over medical decisions. And how much influence the medical insurance lobby has over health policy at all levels of government, especially at the national level.

I really can't see Gen. Clark making any momentous changes in how the business of health care is practiced.

[sandnsea]

19. Yep you are

We have to deal with the existing system because that's what we've got. We have to recognize there's problems with it and move forward. That's what the article says. His web site says he's for a universal health care system. It might be helpful to read everything the man says instead of relying on one quote.

And as to being on both sides of the war, it's working for Howard Dean.

[BJ]

24. Which Web site?

http://www.clark04.com/

http://www.draftwesleyclark.com/

"I grew up in an armed forces that treated everyone as a valued member of the team. Everyone got healthcare, and the army cared about the education of everyone's family members. It wasn't the attitude that you find in some places, where people are fending for themselves and the safety net doesn't work." (Source: Waging Modern War) Is this the statement you're referring to?

[jonnyblitz]

20. "all in a generals uniform"

interesting comment.

[Donna Zen]

8. It's the how and what of Healthcare

First you identify where you want to go: what do you want? Yes, Clark believes: "For some this means only providing a framework of opportunities - for others it means more direct assistance in areas such as education, health care, and retirement security." and "promoting physical vigor and good health through public health measures, improved diagnostics, preventive health, and continuing health care to extend longevity and productivity to our natural limits; and strengthening retirement security, simply because it is right; first for our society to assure that all its members who have contributed throughout their lifetimes are assured a minimal standard of living, and secondly to free the American worker and family to concentrate on the challenges of today. Such long term challenges must be addressed right away, with a new urgency. " IOW, we all need healthcare and we need it now.

Second you find the best means for achieving that goal. How do we get where we want to go? For starters we need dollars. Clark suggests: finding the money for Healthcare in the "want machine," the Pentagon budget.

The biggest surprise for me yesterday was that while everyone looked for clarification about his IWR stance, no one mentioned this unbelievable statement which blew me out of my seat. Actually, I would have been equally surprised to find many posters in the Clark threads to want to look at any positives that might undermine their set-in-stone biases.

[Pepperbelly]

10. i am skeptical of all candidates on this issue.

Each health care plan thusfar presented is fraudulent and I truly wish that someone running would treat us like adults rather than children.

We have a deficit approaching 3/4's of a TRILLION bucks a year. If the Bonehead tax cuts are modified and Iraq taken off the table, that deficit might be cut to 2/5's of a TRILLION but that still leaves no room whatsoever for any sort of comprehensive program or, for that matter, even substative improvements at the margins.

Even though they may have crunched some numbers to support their plans, the numbers will not add up in the real world. If someone were to treat us as adults, they would tell us the truth: until we get a handle on our fiscal house, large spending programs are out of the question. After we get a handle on them, we can and should look at solving our health care woes. That would not be an empty promise either just because it lacks specificity because we know that Democrats CAN get a handle on it if we can get the gop out of the problem-solving loop.

[BJ]

13. Kucinich has a fairly well-developed health care plan

"The Kucinich plan is enhanced 'Medicare for All' -- a universal, single-payer system of national health insurance, carefully phased in over 10 years. It addresses everyone's needs, including the 40 million Americans without coverage and those paying exorbitant rates for health insurance. This approach to healthcare emphasizes patient choice, and puts doctors and patients in control of the system, not insurance companies. Coverage will be more complete than private insurance plans, encourage prevention and include prescription drugs."
(-snip-)
"This type of system -- privately-delivered health care, publicly financed -- has worked well in other countries, none of whom spend as much per capita on healthcare as the United States. 'We're already paying for national healthcare; we're just not getting it, says Kucinich. The cost-effectiveness of a single-payer system has been affirmed in many studies, including those conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting Office. The GAO has written:
'If the US were to shift to a system of universal coverage and a single payer, as in Canada, the savings in administrative costs (10% to private insurers) would be more than enough to offset the expense of universal coverage.'"
(-snip-)
Kucinich:Universal Health Care

[Pepperbelly]

15. while I agree with Kucinich that the ultimate answer is ...

a single payer system, he still ignores or deals short shrift to the gorilla sitting in the middle if the living room, the 3/4s of a trillion dollar deficit. Even with a single payer, the transition costs would be high as the costs of the system shifts and there is simply no room for it fiscally. We first have to put our house in order.

Metaphorically, it would be like using the rent money to buy a new VCR.

[BJ]

21. Who created the current deficit?

The Bush administration, Congressional Republicans and corporationist Democrats.

Of course you're correct in pointing this out.

This gargantuan deficit was designed clearly to wreck any future possibility of a strong federal government from placing restraits on big business and their lobbies. The health care industry is, after all, a big business. Just ask Senator Frist. The current system, if it can truly be called a system and not a pitchwork quilt, works just fine for him.

[Pepperbelly]

26. and their scheme clearly ...

has us between the rock and the hard place. We have to face that fact and get people in there to dig our way out of this shit and NEVER let these bastards lie their way into ruining our country again.

Patriots have to step forward or these fuckers will drain us to death like ticks bloated on a hound dog riding the dog to death.

[BJ]

29. Cool. On this we are agreed.

Gotta go. Promised a friend I'd help'em move.

[Donna Zen]

14. So true

Maybe the first step in "how" is finding the money. Nevertheless, there probably are cost effective measures that can be taken. Emergency rooms use and unpaid hospital bills generated by the uninsured are currently costing a bundle. I hope most Americans are not in favor of throwing folks out in the street to die, although in bush's 'murika one cannot count on that as an operating premise. Plus, Clark understands that many huge and costly weapon systems are a function of the "want machine" coupled with the power of K-street.

While I agree with you absolutely that the current healthcare proposals are snake-oiled to make them easier to swallow, I would think that if the will to make Healthcare a priority could be generated in America, a much needed and a much improved system could be put into place without increasing the debt. This is vital to consider now given the direction currently moved by our increasing debt, toward the cliff's of Argentina. (and yes, that is Krugman says we are headed)

[leesa]

12. Um...that's not a health care plan

He didn't say jack-shit and yet you are calling it a radical health care plan????? Sounds like when the Repubs worshipped bush...any sort of nothingness could come out of his mouth and his fans would drool. He HAS no plan apparently. Why settle for the same old crap...someone without a plan and who is dependent on the military industry.

[CWebster]

16. you're gonna get slapped down

for noticing that the emperor has no clothes. ;-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Have A Serious Question

Do you think the folks who are gravitating to Wes Clark are doing so because they are latent militarists or they see him as the candidate best able to beat Bush?


I'd vote for the Dali Lama if he was an American citizen and I thought he could beat Bush....

[Pepperbelly]

17. I think that you ...

missed the sarcasm. A sense of humor was once standard issue in the Democratic Party but I guess the recession has ended it.

[Donna Zen]

18. Whose plan do you favor?

I too like the Kucinich plan; however, part of implimenting any program is finding the funding. PB is correct when he says that all of this is very costly including moving to "single payer." The "rub" here is two fold: to shake the money out of the Pentagon one must the authority and support to do so. One of the reasons Clark interests me, is that it is rare opportunity to achieve that goal. (I know you have strong negative feelings about Clark, but I would ask that those be set aside at this juncture so that we may consider the stated aim of funding and improving Healthcare.) Second, we must understand that K-street is unfortunately very powerful within our government, and they will do everything with their considerable power to stop any move single payer. How do I know this? Because I live in Maine where we have fought the forces arrayed in this battle for several years. Currently, with the leadership of centrist Dem Governor, we have just this year become a state with a plan in place for providing "universal healthcare. The plan was enacted because it went around the usual "single payer" format. Instead it incorporates current systems into a "Maine Plan" with the support of small and medium business to buy in.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I Don't Think There Is A Greater Authority On Health Care In

the United States Senate than Ted Kennedy. He has been trying to get some sort of national health insurance passed for over three decades.... The fact that even he has abandoned single payer and favors some public/private plan with an employer mandate should tell you something.....

Becoming and being a doctor is unbelievably hard, financially, intellectually, and physically.... I know lots of doctors and have doctors in my family...They are altruistic but they also need to be incentivized, big time...

[BJ]

27. It tells me Senator Kennedy's a pragmatist

And he knows that the health care lobby's got a nut-lock on both parties, so, at this time, forwarding a single-payer health care system bill in Congress is a Sysyphean task.

[Robin Hood]

22. Ummm, Excuse me!!!

But, I don't think that any politician should give away his secrets this early in the game. What he said makes perfect sense. Why give Rove anything to smear you with.

Wait until the debates to spill your beans. Don't do their dirty work for them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I'm Leaning Towards Clark

If a guy with a Che avatar likes him he should be acceptable to the leftists on this board....


Yet they excoriate him....

What gives?


Peace

03

Brian