Parents Face Jail Time for Hiring Stripper

[barb162]

Parents Face Jail Time for Hiring Stripper Mom and Dad Could End Up Doing Time for Birthday Gift to Their 16-Year-Old


June 1, 2005 -- Anette and Landon Pharris didn't think they were doing anything wrong when they hired a stripper to perform at their son's 16th birthday party, but Walgreen's employees thought otherwise when they reported the Pharrises to authorities after developing pictures of the party. Now Pharris, her husband, the exotic dancer and two others are facing possible jail time.

In an interview today with "Good Morning America," Pharris described her decision to hire a stripper for her son and 10 friends under the age of 18, including her 14-year-old son, as responsible parenting.


"It is like an R-rated movie," Pharris said. "That's the way I put it. We as parents can go in and watch an R-rated movie with our children, or buy them tickets."

Things got heated when, after watching the stripper dance for a few hours, Landon Jr. and his friends took up a collection and paid the dancer $150 more to fully disrobe, Anette Pharris said.
snip

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=808779&page=1

(I watched them this morning and reading through the lines you could tell these parents saw nothing wrong with what they did.)

[seabeyond]

1. i dont agree, think it is bad parenting, wouldnt do

and jail is extreme. it is what is wrong in our society. one of the many, anyway

[beyurslf]

2. Ok if you're going to do this, why not get another 100 and buy a digital

camera? Duh!

[devinsgram]

14. Along with one of those printers for photographs.

[sui generis]

3. I don't see anything wrong with it at all

we place too much emphasis on associating some stupid vision of morality with sexuality.

I'll bet you those kids turn out a lot healthier than some homeschooled sheltered play dough pumper #9 haired brat who thinks a vagina is a kind of tomato.

[seabeyond]

4. right, lol lol. lets take the two extremes

i would suggest the healthiest, is the ones in the middle in experience, exploration, independence in sexuality

[Dying Eagle]

5. Couldn't have said it better sui generis

[Eloriel]

30. You're confused on the issue of morality and sexuality

There's a realm of sexuality, and sexual involvement by parents and other important caregivers, that has NOTHING to do with morality but is still wrong -- wreong because it violates healthy emotional boundaries (psychologically damaging, which is morally neutral on the subject of sex). See my post later in this thread and, if anyone can FIND it (I couldn't), see especially some of the posts in the other thread on this very subject from yesterday or maybe day before.

[sui generis]

33. I am not confused at all

I grew up understanding that the human body in all its forms is beautiful, and that sex was natural and sexual attraction wasn't dirty.

I don't buy into the "violating healthy emotional boundaries" crap, because that's soooo subjective. Society has decided that those boundaries magically dissolve at 18 when the facts of physiology are that we are sexual beings starting from puberty onward.

I can think of better things to do than hire a stripper for my kid to make sure he has a good time at a party, but you can bet your patootie (whatever that is) that I'd rather get him a subscription to Playboy/Playgirl or somesuch than to have him hanging out in cybersexville, and I'd rather he saw strippers up close and in bright light, warts and all, than to glorify and fantasize about them on a drunken escapade because it's forbidden and therefore highly attractive.

I'd also rather he had an occasional beer at home and learned not to binge drink in the back of someone's ride, and that he trusted me enough to talk about when his friends decide that it's okay to smoke cigs or hooch, because I'm not okay with that.

I mostly disagree with most Americans about these medieval attitudes towards sex, and any group of loons that goes into a paroxysm of hysteria over a one second flash of a nipple or a poo poo word is almost certainly also practicing medieval parenting skills. I grew up in Europe where you can have both personal modesty and where the consensus is we more or less all have the same equipment and it all pretty much works the same way.

My theory is that your kid is going to find boobies regardless of how much you try to protect him. The only emotional boundary that is getting violated here is the one that says maybe your kid is growing up too fast - the bad news is you can't stop it, and you certainly can't get the law to assist you in stopping it. All you can do is be the best parent for that particular kid and that particular situation without assuming that all kids are alike.

[Finder]

37. Good Post

My sons have now made me promise to have a party like this.lol

[Stuckinthebush]

43. Well said

Thanks.

[Eloriel]

56. Yeah, actually, you are confused

You don't get the point. You've demonstrated that you are simply unwilling to accept an important (morally NEUTRAL) perfectly valid psychological concept like boundaries. The objections are SO not "medieval attitudes toward sex," NOR trying to protect kids from finding out about "boobies" (and I hope that's not an example of your more mature attitudes about sex!).

Let me ask you this: does that mean you think having sex with children, including your children, is okay? That's certainly at LEAST a medieval attitude about sex, isn't it? There are a lot of people who think it's perfectly okay, and should be not only tolerated but promoted, including a bunch of people in Europe. And in the U.S., of course.

So, is it okay to you?

If not why not?

[Finder]

85. Not related

Hiring a stripper is not the same as having sex with your own child. You are stretching it here.

This reminds me of Santorum and his connecting same sex marriage with having sex with animals.

[sui generis]

89. again, when I tell you I'm not confused I am the final authority

I am not confused and I don't fuck kids. Grow up and learn some adult debating skills before you really offend someone. But don't forget to define "children" 'kay? You make it sound like we're talking about fucking five year olds.

And let me tell you what else: an 18 year old should not go to jail for 17 years for having sex with a 16 or 17 year old and that has happened and is happening right now.

To answer your last question: yes, I am okay with it, but let's please stop the blanket statements now. I was sexually precocious, and unaware that sleeping with someone who was clearly in my peer group but just on "that" side of adulthood could go to jail for a long long time over something as ridiculous and meaningless as teen sex, and the so called uptight "adults" who put an 18 year old in jail for something as ridiculous and meaningless as teen sex are purely fucking sick evil humans and don't deserve to be considered an authority on anything.

You are moralizing, whether you believe it or not and you're every bit as condescending as I am on this topic, so finally I have to conclude that we don't and won't agree (gasp).

And another thing. I do understand boundaries, but unlike you I don't slavishly apply morally absolutist principles to them. I'll revise here: if my kid wanted a stripper and all his friends at a birthday party, I'd make him choose. If my kid wants to have a beer at the casa, no problem, but not with his friends. See. That's a boundary, and also exercising parenting skills and judgement and discrimination.

Now please tell me what else you find wrong with me.

[Carni]

70. I agree with you totally

I think the parents must have their head up their butts to do something so dumb (esp in this *moral climate*) and to clarify I am not a proponent of this and would personally never hire a stripper for my kid.

BUT with that said this is basically just a boneheaded not very well thought out move on the part of the parents IMO... but so what?

This requires jail time?

Yeah right--we have Britney Spears and the like pumped up the asses of our YOUNG kids by the corps--yet a stripper hired by boneheads that didn't think it through is a big deal?

I don't think so and all the psycho babble in the world will not convince me otherwise!

[funflower]

77. Hey. You should check out the DU homeschooling group before you

make a lot of way-the-hell overbroad assumptions. Get educated and maybe you won't insult good people who you don't know.

[sui generis]

92. please accept a bit of hyperbole instead of lurking around

looking for a way to interpret everything as an insult. You will have a much better time if you aren't in a state of permanent offense and outrage.

Regarding homeschooling, I know that there are reasons I agree with and reasons I disagree with for doing it. Hope that doesn't offend you, that's about as neutrally as I can put it without offending someone on one side or the other.

Anyway, I thought the tomato thing was pretty funny even if you didn't, and I am unanimous in this.

[funflower]

96. OK. The tomato thing WAS funny.

But my friend's 5-yo homeschooled brat knows more correct names for parts of human anatomy than I did when I graduated from high school, and she's not one bit uncomfortable telling you what they're for.

Now back to my offense and outrage....

[sui generis]

100. I believe you

it's too bad the educational system has to manage the lowest common denominator, which isn't always the child. I jumped into college at 14 (about a thousand years ago) and couldn't have done it without my own version of pseudo home schooling. The only regret I had as a military brat was not getting the same socialization that other children in brick and mortar schools got, but then military brats are all weird and prickly, as I repeatedly prove.

:hi:

[truebrit71]

6. Bad parenting for sure, but jail-worthy?

I don't think so....

[etherealtruth]

7. Touche n/t

[melissinha]

8. What about Walgreens?

Since when has Walgreens been Big Brother? I find this intrusion on privacy by Walgreens to be deplorable.... and we don't knwo anything about the relationship between these kids and their parents... can't assume anythign or make any judgments....

[teenagebambam]

11. For what it's worth....

...I used to work in a photo lab (a private one, not WalMart or the like). But we were instructed to report and confiscate ANYTHING that smacked of sex and minors. I'm ignorant of the legal particulars, but I assume there would be repercussions for a lab that saw, say, pictures of a child being abused and didn't report it.

That's not to say that I think a 16 yr. old seeing a naked lady is such a big deal. I just think the parents are idiots.

[bloom]

13. I expect if someone saw something that looked like child abuse

/child pornography, etc. they would report it.

Might even be a requirement -like for teachers, etc.

[jmm]

35. I think Walgreens officially became big brother when

they stated they stood by their pharmacists right not to dispense birth control.

[Sgent]

71. Most national chains

have refused to develop pictures like this since at least the early 90's.

I used to work in a medical office that dealt with abused children (including sexually), and performed exams including a colposcopic exam of the hyman and genitials, with slides taken for future use in court.

Even after providing patient consent and a copy of the medical license, there were just a very, very few places who would work with us. Universally they were small businesses with 1-2 full time employees, and special precautions were taken to prevent missing pictures.

[dogday]

9. Wrong Choices-You Bet Facing Time for this? Just Stupid

These parents made some bad choices but I don't believe that the law is justified in prosecuting them for what they did in their own home. My Dad used to let me drink alcohol at 16 at home on special occasions, I would not of wanted him arrested for that either.....

[Norquist Nemesis]

10. So many questions on this one

One thing I'd like to know is what the parents of the other kids have to say about it. Did they know beforehand? If so, did they give their okay? And if they did, are they also culpible?

Personally, I think the Walgreen's employees are poking their noses in where they don't belong.

[theboss]

12. I wouldn't blame Walgreens

Photo labs tend to have rules where anything that looks like child porn is reported. A fourteen year old with a stripper is too close for comfort to let it go.

[Norquist Nemesis]

16. I suppose...

You have a good point; it just rubs me the wrong way. I'm sure there are rules for reporting. I also imagine the employees passed the photos among every employee for a gander.

Oh...one other thing: She danced "for hours"?

[nolabels]

20. They hit the trifecta

1.Hire the dancer (stupid)
2.Take the pictures (even more stupid)
3.Get the film developed at "Walgreens" (the most stupid)

They deserve every thing they get for just for being stupid.

This also kind of sounds like some other stupid people

The Abu Ghraib Prison Photos
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

[bloom]

15. Just because they "face jail time"

doesn't mean they'll get jail time. They could get community service or something.

I don't think that would hurt anybody.

[BrightKnight]

17. Sex education should be done at home.

I don't agree with that but it is what the fundis want.

Some parents give alcohol to their minor children. The idea is that they are less likely to abuse it if they are taught that it is just another normal part of life.


Sending his parents to prison would be much more damaging than making him watch a stripper. I don't think that they are the least bit concerned about the welfare of the adolescent.

[Dora]

18. Oh, no, it didn't HURT anybody

but it taught a room full of boys becoming young men that
- it's okay to pay a woman to dance naked for you, and
- everyone has their price.

Where are the feminists here? Isn't anyone appalled?

Personally, I am disgusted. They should have bought him a hooker - at least he might have learned something USEFUL, like how to use a condom, or how to please a woman.

"Exotic dancing" is not an empowering act. I will never be convinced otherwise, and I am friends with women who have danced/are dancing for money.

This is sick.

[progressivebydesign]

19. I"m completely appalled.. with you.

But.. you have to accept that DU has lots of guys who are wishing their parents had done the same thing for them.. or friends would do that now.


on edit: We had a working stripper on DU posting last night that was very unhappy with this story. She would never agree to do anything with minors.

[Jacobin]

21. Jailworthy appalled?

just askin'

[TorchTheWitch]

79. that would be me

on edit: We had a working stripper on DU posting last night that was very unhappy with this story. She would never agree to do anything with minors.

And I think I was much more eloquent in the other thread, but I can't find the damn thing now. In any case... I made an attempt to repeat a lot of what I had said in the other one down further in this thread somewhere.

[MooPie]

22. I'm with you.

Basically these parents just reinforced the stereotype that women exist for men's visual and tactile pleasure.
I think jail time is a bit much, and that the parents would be better served with an enlightening course about the oppression and exploitation of women. Although my guess is they probably would never get it.

[Dora]

23. What's good for the goose...

Is good for the gander.

Make them both dance naked for money at a teenager's birthday party.

But, after seeing the picture at the link, that wouldn't be very fair to the birthday boy.

[MooPie]

24. Whoa!!!!

Scarey vision! And I just ate my lunch!

[sendero]

51. Yeah..

.... so since they don't see the world the way you do, let's put them in jail.

I wonder who is sicker?

[MooPie]

58. You evidently didn't understand my position.

I said I felt that jail time was a bit extreme and they should be educated as to why reducing women to sexual commodities does no one any service in our society. However, my husband feels they deserve to be put in jail because their actions contributed to the delinquency of a minor as well as demonstrated significant lack of good parental judgment. So by your standards I would surmise you feel he's sicker than these dysfunctional parents.

[sendero]

60. If ...

.... "demonstrating a significant lack of parental judgement" were a jailable offense, one third of the parents in this country would be in jail.

As for "educating" people to your point of view concerning women's issues, that is not a function of the criminal justice system or the courts, thank heavens.

[MooPie]

65. And that is why I am opposed to the jail time.

However, your snide reference to my "educating people" to "my" point of view indicates a lack of awareness as to how "women's issues" impact society as a whole. I would suggest that you do some serious research on the historical and contemporary attitudes about women and how this has impacted them, continues to impact them, as well as men, in all aspects of life.

[sendero]

66. Trust me on this..

.... I've considered your point of view and find it completely lacking.

I bought into it at one time, then I opened my eyes to reality.

The fact of the matter is, you have every right to try to sway people to your way of thinking, but leave the courts out of it. When a critical mass of the population agrees with you, then legislation will be created and the courts will interpret and enforce it.

Don't hold your breath.

[MooPie]

68. So you don't think prevailing attitudes,

both historically and contemporary, impacted, and continue to impact on women in society?
BTW, the courts have agreed with it in a number of ways. For example, how about Title IX? How about laws dealing with sex discrimination?
And are you saying don't hold your breath because it will never happen, or don't expect the courts to enforce the laws?

[sendero]

83. Please don't confuse...

... real women's issue with this nonsense.

I fully support title nine. I fully support the notion of 100% equality in the workplace for all genders and all sexual orientations.

What I don't support is folks getting their panties in a wad over stuff like strippers and porn, which have nothing whatsoever to do with women's rights, other than perhaps the FACT that some women choose to do these things and they have every right to, whether someone 'thinks' it is setting back women's issues or not.

That is not for the courts to decide, it is a freedom issue and I always side with freedom and personal rights.

[MooPie]

90. Actually I feel every woman has the right to choose whatever

profession she desires, be it doctor, lawyer, stripper, prostitute, scientist. My main objection to the situation at hand is that these parents are promoting &/or reinforcing sexist stereotypes about women to teenagers who are developmentally immature. These particular stereotypes, because of their pejorative connotation (not to say it should be that way, but it is) have always had a negative impact on the status of women in our society. People tend to compartmentalize. That is one reason why women have always had to battle for equality. Perhaps you are mature/wise/objective enough to view women as equal, and can separate the profession from its pejorative, however, many people cannot. Or refuse to do so.
And yes, porn does impact women's rights, as much of it is misogynistic in nature. And thus perpetuates opinions and ideas of women that carry over into behavior towards them. However, I don't believe it should be censored, but should be balanced with an explanation as to the negative impact much of it has on both men and women.

[sendero]

98. Ok....

... I agree with most of what you have to say. But IMHO, this is a civil matter at best, not a criminal one.

[MooPie]

99. I agree.

If our country had a mature attitude re accepting, teaching sexuality we wouldn't have near the problems we do. But until that happens, and I think it's far far off in the future, we will continue to be faced with these ridiculous situations.
BTW, I do wish more people had your objectivity.

[barb162]

27. I am a feminist and I am appalled. You're right, it's sick

And there were younger kids there.

[sui generis]

42. I call bullshit

making dancing for money more demeaning than waiting tables for money or cutting hair for money is the ONLY thing that makes it demeaning.

Everyone does have their price. Stay aware of it, and it will be harder for someone else to figure out how little you cost.

Where do we get from stripping to sex? They seem to be the same thing in your mind. P.S. Men strip too and we don't piss and moan about "feminist" ideals. If "some of your best friends are _______ "(fill in the blank, I guess you said strippers), then you need to be aware of two things:

1. they don't speak for the whole community just because you know them

2. they could probably tell you that they had good days and bad days just like any other job where you whore out your appearance, your skills, your brains, or your thighs.

I guess where you po'd me was with your "sick" comment. I really hate that kind of judgemental attitude from someone who doesn't know what she's talking about.

[TorchTheWitch]

80. good call

If "some of your best friends are _______ "(fill in the blank, I guess you said strippers), then you need to be aware of two things:

1. they don't speak for the whole community just because you know them

2. they could probably tell you that they had good days and bad days just like any other job where you whore out your appearance, your skills, your brains, or your thighs.

EVERY job has it's good and bad. Overall, stripping was the smartest thing I ever did. But that's ME. I know of plenty of other dancers that it was a very positive thing for them. However, I also know plenty of other dancers that it was horribly emotionally destructive and were probably never cut out for it from the beginning.

I felt to be FAR more of a whore/piece of meat in the corporate environment then I've EVER felt as a stripper even during the bad moments.

[NashVegas]

64. "Everyone Has Their Price"

When it comes to sex, yeah, pretty much, and I don't understand why people refuse to see that as perfectly okay.

Physical gratification
Emotional gratification
Financial or other material gratification

Why are the top two okay, but the bottom one something to be horrified about?

Sometimes I wonder if it's not because the top two are intangibles, therefore immeasurable, and easy to shrug ones shoulders over in an unequal exchange. Whereas, in the third scenario, it is measurable: both parties are required to live up to their end of the bargain.

[TorchTheWitch]

78. I disagree

"Exotic dancing" is not an empowering act. I will never be convinced otherwise, and I am friends with women who have danced/are dancing for money.

Exotic dancing CAN be empowering. It certainly was for me. However, it can be totally emotionally distructive for others. Very few people are cut out for this business. I think it helps a lot to be positive thing if one is mature enough and has a solid level of self-esteem FIRST as well as have a good "coach". Having been in this business for a long time, I see the biggest problems with it being damaging to so many people who get into it are that they don't have a realistic view about it from the beginning, they're doing it for the wrong reasons, they're too immature, and they have no one to teach them how to deal with customers and other dancers many of whom will be in a position to flay you emotionally.

[PassingFair]

25. If my underage kid was at that party

I DAMN well would have called the police.
If my (legal aged) kid wants to get plowed and seek out that type of "entertainment", then I'll deal with my kid's values at home.
This was different.

[eek MD]

53. If your kid is legal aged...

Maybe you should let him learn his own "values", instead of shoving things down his throat.

Just a thought.... :)

[PassingFair]

61. FYI

Instilling values is a parent's job.
Perhaps your's shirked their responsibilities.

[eek MD]

101. I'm sorry that MY values don't live up to YOUR standards....

If my parents had instilled their values on me, I'd be a rabid conservative. In that case, i'm glad my parents shirked their responsibilties.
I think once someone becomes an adult, they've earned the right to determine their own set of values. Just my thought... :)

[noonwitch]

26. Stupid, but not criminal

If the other parents want to sue over it, I guess it would be a civil matter. And these parents should sue Walgreen's. The photo developers should have some rules about what to report and what not to. If they show a child being abused, sexually or otherwise, report it. This is not sexual abuse of a child, it's a poor parenting decision, up there with my mom taking me to see "Animal House" when I was 14, or letting me sample the beer on the Miller tour we took when I was 16 (the drinking age in WI was 18 at the time).

[Eloriel]

28. Yes, it is sexual abuse of the underage minors

You bet it is.

Any parent getting involved in a child's sex life, PUSHING some sexual activity for an underage minor, is inappropriate enough participation in the child's sexual reality to be child sexual abuse.

Aside from trying to instill certain values about sex and sexuality, healthy male/female relationships (which this is NOT, as already pointed out), and whatever technical information needs to be imparted about "the birds and the bees," any other involvement by either parent is wrong. It's invasive, it's even (emotionally) incestuous. This mother should basically have NO interest in her son's sexual exploits, and setting one up goes so far over the line that it absolutely DOES warrant the state's involvement.

There was another thread on this -- I thought it was in LBN, but I can't find it. Anyone have a link, or what happened to that thread, because it had some excellent posts in it.

And, of course, as a feminist, I concur with the remarks about this made from that perspective. For this child's mother to promote that objectifying view of women is by itself a form a child abuse, IMO. There's a very good chance he'll be slightly (or heavily) warped in his relationships and sexuality all his life, esp. given the fact that this is probably not an isolated incident on his mother's part.

And speaking of his mother, I'll point out that HER poor sexual boundaries didn't come out of nowhere either. There's a very good probability (I'd put it at 99%) that SHE was sexually abused as a child too.

[sui generis]

34. and another thing

if my kid was gay, I'd get him a male stripper.

My goodness there's a lot of warm air in here. What kind of horsecrap is this: "There's a very good chance he'll be slightly (or heavily) warped in his relationships and sexuality all his life"

Sounds a bit like personal bias to me with zero grounding in facts or experience.

[Finder]

36. You don't seem like a feminist...

I base that on the derrgatory statements made about women who choose to dance or strip for a living. Feminism is not about a total lack of sexuality which is what you seem to think society needs to enforce. As far as her being sexually abused--I see no correlation. She seems to see sexuality as a healthy part of growing up. A mother who is able to interact with her teen son is more a sign of her being a true feminist than anything you have stated in this or the other thread.

I am not attacking you. I just don't see how you can hold other women to such a strict moralistic standard and call yourself a feminist. Your contant mentioning of her being abused may be telling as to your own distate of sexuality.

[Eloriel]

57. Of course you see no correlation. You're

ignorant of the subject.

You might find it worthwhile to do some research. One place to start would be to find out what the percentage of women (of all ages) are prostitutes and were sexually abused as children.

You might also look for stats on how many (what percentage of) girl children and boy children are sexually abused as children.

The objectification and dehumanizing of women is NOT feminism, no matter how hard some people want to try to make it. This also has nothing to do with HEALTHY sexuality (which prostitutes and strippers are NOT).

You know, guys, there's a REASON you wouldn't want your daughter or your Mother to be a stripper or a prostitute. And if you say, "Oh, but I wouldn't mind at all..." you're lying, if only to yourself. It is shameful to sell one's body that way -- degrading, humiliating, the lowest of the low on the human food chain. It will ALWAYS be degrading and humiliating, and the reason is you have absolutely no control over your own body, your privacy, your destiny. There is little more degrading and humiliating than that.

All of that is why most become addicts and alcoholics -- to numb the pain.

And if all that is too much for you, why not just start with the stats for "regular" old hild abuse within the population known as prison inmates, and work your out from there?

[Finder]

84. I will agree child abuse was/is a problem

I don't think I even know anyone that wasn't molested at some point in their life. I don't mean the extreme types(rapes)overall but the fiddled by an uncle, dad's friend, scoutmaster, babysitter type. That said, back before it was proper to discuss it was more commonplace; these days we teach our children about bad touches and stranger danger etc.

Feminism is about equality. Equal pay, equal opportunity, equal justice, etc.

I don't see how stripping and prostitution(when chosen)is losing control of your body. Millions of women give up control of their bodies for a dinner and movie and the hope of marriage. How many married women give up control to keep a roof over their heads and food in the children's mouth? How many women ignore their children and even turn a blind eye to a stepfather or boyfriend's actions in the name of keeping him?

As far as the prison population, being raised by alcholic or drug addicted parents is a higher statistic and includes many of the abuse cases.

[mongo]

39. To some, there's a child abuser under every rock

And, of course, as a feminist, I concur with the remarks about this made from that perspective. For this child's mother to promote that objectifying view of women is by itself a form a child abuse, IMO. There's a very good chance he'll be slightly (or heavily) warped in his relationships and sexuality all his life, esp. given the fact that this is probably not an isolated incident on his mother's part.

And speaking of his mother, I'll point out that HER poor sexual boundaries didn't come out of nowhere either. There's a very good probability (I'd put it at 99%) that SHE was sexually abused as a child too.

Just because you find something distastefull doesn't make it child abuse. If he is going to so heavily warped by a little titalization, you'ld better hope he has never seen MTV - or do only child abusers and those who were abused as children let their kids watch MTV too?

[Eloriel]

59. Yes, those who work in the sex industry are usually pretty sensitive

to criticisms of that industry and the societal dynamics that feed it by providing both its customers and its workers.

And there ARE too many child abusers out there. Not only are too many people abusers, but they usually abuse many, many children over the course of their lives and are rarely caught, let alone tried and convicted, which means they can go on to harm even more children.


Just because you find something distastefull doesn't make it child abuse.

Well, mongo, I've studied this issue, along with regular child abuse, and domestic violence and, as I said elsewhere, I've also worked as a volunteer child advocate for victims of child abuse, which included victims of sexual abuse.

I think I have a decent idea of what is and is not child abuse, and I tend to find ALL child abuse pretty damned distasteful.

I especially have some sense of how it ruins the entire life of an innocent child. For the rest of their lives, these victimized children will live lives that are usually dramatically LESS than what they could have lived as a direct result of the incredible wounding they receive at the hands of their abusers, who are too often people they know, love and trust.

They will have little or no self-esteem (because they're just "things" to be "used and abused," with no real rights even over their own bodies); they will have enormous pain from the emotional betrayal of having someone they trust and whose job it is to protect them betray them instead by harming them and probably lying to them; they will have enormous trouble forming healthy relationships with others, both romantic and just friendships and possibly authority (which means broken marriages); they will likely do some acting out and engage in anti-social behavior starting in school and continuing on thru life; they will likely be promiscuous at an early age and possibly become pregnant as teens; they will turn to drugs and alcohol to numb the pain; they will do poorly in school, and too often not advance their education beyond the basics; and far, far too many of them will NEVER amount to anything for the rest of their lives.

ALL BECAUSE OF THE ENORMOUS PSYCHIC AND EMOTIONAL WOUNDS THEY RECEIVED AS INNOCENT CHLDREN.

So, yeah, when I consider the enormity of the problem, and the devastation and destruction AND the very real and enormous cost to society, I tend to take it all very seriously, and perhaps a tad personally, especially when people want to turn the table and somehow try to target ME as the bad guy in a discussion like this.

[mongo]

73. So was this 16yo "ruined" for the rest of his life by this stripper?

When you characterize this story as "child sexual abuse" you do a disservice to anyone actually affected by it.

And your "once a victim always a victim" mentality only serves to undermine the efforts for survivors of abuse to overcome the experience and grow as a person.

[Eloriel]

74. Oh, nonsense

I suspect two things about the 16-year old:

1. This isn't the first inappropriate transgression by his mother and
2. Yes, he's likely to have warped (that is, unhealthy) attitudes (like his mom's) about sex and sexuality and women for the rest of his life.

When you characterize this story as "child sexual abuse" you do a disservice to anyone actually affected by it.

No, I hope to be expanding the UNDERSTANDING of child sexual abuse.

Do you understand what the threshhold is for child sexual abuse? You'd probably find it pretty low. SHOWING A CHILD PORN is child sexual abuse. Frankly, a stripper isn't much different from porn. The instructions to Michael Jackson's jury included the definition of (paraphrased) "ANY touching which is intended for Jackson's sexual gratification." Inappropriate (highly sexualized) remarks made to a child about sex is child sexual abuse.

And your "once a victim always a victim" mentality only serves to undermine the efforts for survivors of abuse to overcome the experience and grow as a person.

Hardly. First of all, you either misunderstand or mischaracterize my position -- but that's a good way to try to deflect the awful reality, isn't it? Survivors can do very well in life, APPEAR to be quite functional in many if not most ways, and keep things bottled up and buried inside. IF they are lucky enough to get therapy, they'll do better, and the younger they are when they get therapy the better they'll do. My POINT was that in all cases their lives are going to be LESS THAN -- sometimes significantly less, sometimes just nearly invisibly less, but in ALL cases definitely less and tragically less -- they would have been otherwise.

This isn't just my wild imaginings, this is borne out again and again and again.

And as for diminished lives, ALL of the perps preying on our children today were victims themselves once upon a time. They're hardly victims any more, are they? They've now taken CONTROL of their lives and have become the one who wields power.

My TRUTH TELLING will never hurt or " undermine the efforts for survivors of abuse to overcome the experience and grow as a person." Quite the contrary, actually. The more people who understand what's going on, what it means, what it costs individuals and society, what the dynamics are, etc., etc., etc., the better chance these women and men will have of healing.

HIDING THINGS OR DENYING EITHER THEIR EXISTENCE, REALITY OR SEVERITY NEVER HELPS AND IS ALWAYS HARMFUL. It's called denial, and it's one form of dysfunction that often afflicts people who are or were involved in dysfunctional families themselves.

[Finder]

87. Not all abusers were abused...

Many were but not all. As far as survivors keeping things bottled up---part of the process of dealing with the abuse is speaking out and confrontation.

Your comment about the lives of survivors being LESS is ridiculous. In this day and age we can speak out and deal with the issue without society looking down on us.

YOU are the one that is labeling vicims as doomed to be criminals and abusers. YOU are the one stating anyone that does not hold the same morality as you was probably abused themselves.

I truly hope you are a survivor who is still in the process of therapy, otherwise you are part of the problem we real survivors have to deal with.

[mongo]

95. Your threshhold for child sexual abuse is not the same as the laws

At least here in Ohio

Do you understand what the threshhold is for child sexual abuse? You'd probably find it pretty low. SHOWING A CHILD PORN is child sexual abuse. Frankly, a stripper isn't much different from porn.
ORC § 2907.31. Disseminating matter harmful to juveniles.

(A) No person, with knowledge of its character or content, shall recklessly do any of the following:

(1) Directly sell, deliver, furnish, disseminate, provide, exhibit, rent, or present to a juvenile, a group of juveniles, a law enforcement officer posing as a juvenile, or a group of law enforcement officers posing as juveniles any material or performance that is obscene or harmful to juveniles;

(2) Directly offer or agree to sell, deliver, furnish, disseminate, provide, exhibit, rent, or present to a juvenile, a group of juveniles, a law enforcement officer posing as a juvenile, or a group of law enforcement officers posing as juveniles any material or performance that is obscene or harmful to juveniles;

(3) While in the physical proximity of the juvenile or law enforcement officer posing as a juvenile, allow any juvenile or law enforcement officer posing as a juvenile to review or peruse any material or view any live performance that is harmful to juveniles.

(B) The following are affirmative defenses to a charge under this section that involves material or a performance that is harmful to juveniles but not obscene:

(1) The defendant is the parent, guardian, or spouse of the juvenile involved.

(2) The juvenile involved, at the time of the conduct in question, was accompanied by the juvenile's parent or guardian who, with knowledge of its character, consented to the material or performance being furnished or presented to the juvenile.

<snip the rest because it doesn't apply>

Letting the stripper perform for the other kids without their parents knowledge or consent is a crime, but giving them Playboy, or hiring a stripper, is not. I can't and won't sell Playboy to a minor - they would never make it into the back room - but if someone's parent buys it for them it is perfectly legal.

As for the rest of your post:

And your "once a victim always a victim" mentality only serves to undermine the efforts for survivors of abuse to overcome the experience and grow as a person.

Hardly. First of all, you either misunderstand or mischaracterize my position -- but that's a good way to try to deflect the awful reality, isn't it?

From your post # 28 - There's a very good chance he'll be slightly (or heavily) warped in his relationships and sexuality all his life, esp. given the fact that this is probably not an isolated incident on his mother's part.

Form your post #59 I especially have some sense of how it ruins the entire life of an innocent child. For the rest of their lives, these victimized children will live lives that are usually dramatically LESS than what they could have lived as a direct result of the incredible wounding they receive at the hands of their abusers, who are too often people they know, love and trust.

They will have little or no self-esteem (because they're just "things" to be "used and abused," with no real rights even over their own bodies); they will have enormous pain from the emotional betrayal of having someone they trust and whose job it is to protect them betray them instead by harming them and probably lying to them; they will have enormous trouble forming healthy relationships with others, both romantic and just friendships and possibly authority (which means broken marriages); they will likely do some acting out and engage in anti-social behavior starting in school and continuing on thru life; they will likely be promiscuous at an early age and possibly become pregnant as teens; they will turn to drugs and alcohol to numb the pain; they will do poorly in school, and too often not advance their education beyond the basics; and far, far too many of them will NEVER amount to anything for the rest of their lives.

ALL BECAUSE OF THE ENORMOUS PSYCHIC AND EMOTIONAL WOUNDS THEY RECEIVED AS INNOCENT CHLDREN.

Your own words - am I mischaracterizing your position?
---------------
HIDING THINGS OR DENYING EITHER THEIR EXISTENCE, REALITY OR SEVERITY NEVER HELPS AND IS ALWAYS HARMFUL. It's called denial, and it's one form of dysfunction that often afflicts people who are or were involved in dysfunctional families themselves.

True, but making wild accusations:

And speaking of his mother, I'll point out that HER poor sexual boundaries didn't come out of nowhere either. There's a very good probability (I'd put it at 99%) that SHE was sexually abused as a child too.

and overhyping this story as something that will "ruin" all these poor, innocent children (which are 16+ yo's BTW) and other anti-sex statements such as:

The objectification and dehumanizing of women is NOT feminism, no matter how hard some people want to try to make it. This also has nothing to do with HEALTHY sexuality (which prostitutes and strippers are NOT).

It is shameful to sell one's body that way -- degrading, humiliating, the lowest of the low on the human food chain. It will ALWAYS be degrading and humiliating, and the reason is you have absolutely no control over your own body, your privacy, your destiny. There is little more degrading and humiliating than that.

only serve to paint the positions of an anti-sex zealot. I truely doubt if you care as much about how much damage it did or did not do to these kids as to paint a picture of a society out of control and the profession of stripping as evil.

[Finder]

86. You are not the bad guy...

or gal. You are being responded to, not targetted. I can't imagine any psychologist or social worker allowing you to deal with victims the way you see sexuality. Part of the counselling process is assuring the child does not equate the abuse with his or her own sexuality but seeing it for what it was--a crime about control.

Your point about trust and betrayal is spot on. However, in the context of this thread...a parent hiring a stripper--does not fit into any of the scenarios you stated. You seem to have an adversity towards sexuality and it seems female sexuality in particular. These parents celebrated their son's approach to manhood symbolically and in a fun way. They did this openly. This son knows if he has any questions he can approach either of them without feeling shame(Trust).

Sex is not dirty and desire is not a secret or something to be ashamed of.

[ultraist]

69. It sounds like you are placing all of the blame on the mother

It isn't JUST the job of the mother to set healthy boundaries regarding sex and to instill values.

[TorchTheWitch]

81. BINGO!

Any parent getting involved in a child's sex life, PUSHING some sexual activity for an underage minor, is inappropriate enough participation in the child's sexual reality to be child sexual abuse.

THAT is the point. ALL people should be able to progress sexually at their OWN PACE... not have it thrust upon them. This was not about JUST this woman's kids, there were all lot of OTHER PEOPLE'S kids exposed to this as well.

There was another thread on this -- I thought it was in LBN, but I can't find it. Anyone have a link, or what happened to that thread, because it had some excellent posts in it.

I thought it was in GD, but I can't find it either.

[river2]

29. More fun red state hijinks...

I bet they voted for Bush too.

[bloom]

31. New York is a blue state

isn't it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1515010&mesg_id=1515010


Not that it makes any difference. There aren't any states with a monopoly on this stuff.

[freedom_to_read]

32. How else will these kids learn?

So many young men simply do not know how to behave at strip clubs. They don't know how much to tip the pole-dancers, what a good price for a lap dance is, or the proper technique for putting dollar bills in a dancer's g-string with their mouth.

These parents are giving their children important lessons on this in the home, so that when they are old enough to visit the gentlemen's club they won't be at a loss.


/sarcasm

[jazzjunkysue]

38. Um, why does this matter?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Strippers are evil and immoral? But, guns and killing are just fine.

If the proud parents had brought their beloved kid an AK-47 and took photos of he and his pals gunning down a deer the pseudo cops at Walgreen's wouldn't have batted an eye.

[sui generis]

44. thank you

the stench of righteous judgement is heavy in here today. I personally think that every teenager should learn about what goes on in the adult entertainment industry EXACTLY the same way they learn how sexual organs function.

The outraged nutbars here who think that it's immoral are the same ones who were crabbing about the evils of sex ed in the sixties.

[Eloriel]

62. I haven't seen anyone who objects on the basis of morality

Who the hell are you talking about, and please quote the exact text.

[sui generis]

91. oh so we're all just having a dry intellectual

discussion about hair care products. My bad. :eyes:

[Beaverhausen]

47. These boys now think it's OK to watch naked women dancing

because hey, Johnny's mom hired the stripper. It must be OK!!!

I'm sorry but 14-16 is too young for this kind of "entertainment!"

Suppose after this experience they ask girls at parties they attend to perform the same kind of "show?" But these girls will be their own age.

I notice it's mostly men who think this whole thing was OK. :eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. No. I don't think it's "OK".

But, teenage boys have been ogling women since Adam. It is only naive to think that boys (and girls) can't simply turn on the TV and do much the same at any hour of the day. Ever notice the "hunks" and "hot chicks" selling everything from breakfast cereal to cars to gym equipment?

The "parents" (and, I use the word ironically), were certainly blockheads at best to encourage these kiddies to view women as products, but my post had to do with the sensationalism of the media and the acceptance of violence in our society versus the very real tragedies that are present in the rest of the ignored world.

[mongo]

49. Suppose they watch the "the Texas Chainsaw massacre"

Do you think they will go out and try to buther strangers with a chain saw? Kids don't emulate everything they see.

Suppose after this experience they ask girls at parties they attend to perform the same kind of "show?" But these girls will be their own age.

I notice it's mostly men who think this whole thing was OK.

Didn't you hear? The concept of adult entertainment was invented in the 70's as a backlash to the feminist movement :eyes: /sarcasm

[Beaverhausen]

50. I see a difference between a movie and a parents authorization

I actually don't think its very healthy for kids to watch too much violence either. Our society is numb to it - that's why the Iraq war doesn't seem to bother the sheeple.

But in this case I think the fact that the parents paid for the stripper is the problem. They hired and paid for the woman to perform live in their home for the enjoyment of 14-16 year old boys. Just what do you think that is saying to those boys?

Sorry I know people disagree but this is my opinion. I doubt the other boys mothers would be very happy about it.

[mongo]

52. I don't have a problem with the titalization

But I will agree with you on this:

I doubt the other boys mothers would be very happy about it.

She sould not have exposed other parent's kids to this without their consent.

[TorchTheWitch]

82. a very good point

Suppose after this experience they ask girls at parties they attend to perform the same kind of "show?" But these girls will be their own age.

I thought about this myself. Because of the level of maturity of these kids, they most likely aren't able to distinguish the difference between what a stripper does and why from their expectations of the girls they're most likely to date. This is exactly what bothered me when I wondered if there were any girls at this party, because they would have been shown a level of expectation that at their age and level of maturity they would never be able to meet. But it's not so much the expectations of the boys assuming that girls they date who are their own age should be doing that kind of "show", but the far more dangerous expectations of assuming the same adult sexual confidence and aggression... and it's THAT those girls will never be able to live up to. Most adult sexually mature women can't even emotionally deal with that kind of sexual confidence and aggression.


I can already tell you that the false glamorization of stripping has caused a FLOOD of young girls into this business that are doing it for exactly the wrong reasons and most of the time the biz chews them up and spits them out. Many times I've had to console a young girl in the dressing room balling her eyes out over some incident she was NEVER prepared for when she got into this and try to convince her that she's not cut out for this and/or not ready for it. Very often I think that 18 is too damn young to do this... but I've always thought it bizarre that you have to be 21 to be a customer in a club but only 18 to work in one.

[sui generis]

93. yes but

ya'll seem to think the only strippers on the planet are female.

I certainly wouldn't claim to speak on behalf of everybody everywhere, and I am unanimous in this!

:evilgrin:

[LSK]

41. but if the kids played war video games all day - thats ok

This country is so backwards. War, guts, killing is ok, but if a teenager sees a naked women, its the end of the world.

[Divameow77]

45. What the parents did was stupid and tacky,

but not worth going to jail over. Would the cops be beating down there door if they watched Basic Instinct together? Why is it okay in a movie but not in real life?
I do have a hard time believing they found 10 other parents that thought this was okay.

[MrSlayer]

46. Oh god spare me.

What is the big fucking deal? Oooooooh some teenaged boys saw a naked girl, how horrid. Give me a break, there is nothing wrong with what the parents did here, they sound pretty cool to me. And those rats at Walgreens should mind their own fucking business. I should send these people a digital camera.

[TorchTheWitch]

54. chiming in as a stripper here...

There was another thread about this story a few days ago, but I can't find it, so I'll butt in again...

It is a big deal. There were other kids at this party who had no say in being subjected to that, and as far as I can tell, it wasn't just boys. My experience with outcall stripping is that it's A LOT more then just taking off your clothes. Hell, it's a lot more then that in clubs. This is why I got out of doing outcall stripping about a decade ago.

Not only was the stripper a flaming idiot for going ahead and doing her show once she found out it was a party of underagers, she was a complete fool to let it be photographed. I NEVER let anyone photograph me at a show... that's crazy.

[MrSlayer]

55. There are no allegations of anything other than nudity happening.

From what I see it was all teenaged boys and no teenaged boy is going to balk at seeing a stripper. I just don't see what damage has been done by this. I do agree with you on both outcalls and photos.

[TorchTheWitch]

63. gotta disagree here

Teenage boys ARE overwhelmed by a sexually agressive older female... particularly a naked one. I don't work at clubs anymore that allow 18 and over, but only 21 and over now... and MOST of the younger guys are freaked out by it (even a lot of the early-mid 20's guys). Not so much the stage work since they aren't right up close and they have their buddies to prop them up, but they usually CANNOT handle the personal attention, and God forbid, a lap dance. As I said on the other thread about this, there's been many a youngster whose friends egged him on to get a lap dance from me, and for their sake, I just took them off to the lap dance room and sat and talked while they shook and stammered with nerves and thanked me over and over for taking it easy on them and not embarrassing them in front of their friends.

It's my guess that there was a lot more going on then just stripping for a variety of reasons. There are practically no strippers left in the outcall business who JUST strip. The agencies take at least 50% of the fee, and you have to pay the security guy about 50% of your take... therefore, it's not worth it to bother to leave the house for a booking if you aren't AT LEAST doing "two-way touching" lap dances. The only strippers I know of that are still willing to do outcall stripping without engaging in various sex acts with the party members are the ones who do "girl/girl" shows (a two stripper show where they perform sex acts on each other where the party members don't get physically involved). Check out any agency's website and you'll see that they offer "girl/girl" shows... I guarantee you those girls aren't just stripping.

I don't think most people realize what outcall stripping has become. The days of an outcall stripper just gyrating about sliding out of some cop outfit or some such thing went out in the late 80's/early 90's. These days, it's far more like prostitution (and most often IS flat out prostitution), which is why I only strip in decent clubs now. And these days, I don't know a single club anywhere that is just stage work. Even in the "clean" clubs I work in, there are still times that I see things being done descretely that would make your eyes explode. All night long I get asked by customers if I do "outcall shows/private shows", and I know exactly what they're really asking is am I a prostitute... customers have known for over a decade what outcall stripping is now, and it's why they ask that way.

ALL people should be able to advance sexually at their own pace without the judgmental eyes of an audience. The kids at this party were not given that opportunity, nor were they given the opportunity to choose for themselves who it would be that would initiate them or take them on such a sexual journey.

[MrSlayer]

67. Oh I know all about the business.

Believe me, my eyes would not explode over anything. LOL. Perhaps I'm just equating all teenaged boys to my own experiences and those of my friends. Point taken, while I may still disagree that it was seriously harmful I understand where you are coming from and see that it could be in certain cases. Your pardon madam?

[TorchTheWitch]

75. no problem

I'm not saying that there are no teenagers that wouldn't have a problem with it, but most of them would... in some way. Mostly they are fine amongst their friends, but get them alone and be upfront honest with them about how nervous and uncomfortable they are, and the "hey, no biggie, I'm cool" mask drops.

[mongo]

72. What you are describing may be true in California or Nevada

But in clubs here in Ohio, striping is NOT flat out prostitution in most clubs.

Outcall is another matter. But I believe here it is more common for girls to describe themselves as escorts rather than strippers if they are going to provide outright sexual services.

Wives all over the country are reading your post, and think that if their husband goes to a buddies bachelor party at the local two-bit strip joint, he will come out of it with a BJ, and that's just NOT the way it is in most of 'merika.

Which is not to say that there is anywhere in 'merika that you can't get a hooker if you want one. I once lived in a town of 300 people that had 2 hookers. They hung out on the steps of the church at the only light in town.

[TorchTheWitch]

76. oh boy

But in clubs here in Ohio, striping is NOT flat out prostitution in most clubs.

I've worked in Ohio. I've worked at some point in most states. Trust me, sex in some form IN the club (ANY club) can be had. One of the reasons I like working at the one club I've spent most of my time in for the past year or so is because it's very OPEN... there are no totally private areas which makes it far more difficult to engage in illicit activity. Yet, just the other night I was sitting in VIP with a customer, glanced into the champagne court and there's a dancer whom I had worked with for nearly a year and always was so sure was one of the "clean" girls with her hand down her customer's pants up to the elbow... she got fired basically because she wasn't discrete enough not to get caught. There are many times I come close to the line myself and realize how easy it would be to do something very illegal that no one would be able to tell even in this very open club.

Outcall is another matter. But I believe here it is more common for girls to describe themselves as escorts rather than strippers if they are going to provide outright sexual services.

It's the same everywhere in this country. The basic difference between outcall strippers and escorts is that escorts don't do groups/parties (but, rather, individuals or couples) and charge a flat rate for their time... whatever they choose for that time to entail. Outcall strippers work for a larger group, and charge each individual party member a separate rate for each "transaction" she performs as well as collecting tips from the other party members who watch each "transaction". Outcall strippers also do put on some sort of show whether or not it includes illegal sexual acts whereas escorts generally don't. Other than that, there's really no difference anymore.

Wives all over the country are reading your post, and think that if their husband goes to a buddies bachelor party at the local two-bit strip joint, he will come out of it with a BJ, and that's just NOT the way it is in most of 'merika.

Yeah, it is... even in the big fancy gentlemens' clubs. And wives aren't so dumb that they don't know that illegal sex acts can be had in strip clubs which is the biggest reason they don't want their husbands in them. However, what each customer is looking for, what he'll get and from whom he gets it are all up to the customer. Most customers generally don't get illegal sex acts when they go to the club... but they most certainly CAN if they try hard enough to find a girl that's willing and are willing to pay her price. If wives are concerned about their hubbies participating in a bachelor party, they'd be far better off if the party was in a club rather then if an outcall stripper was hired. I'm not going to sit here and lie for the sake of the wives who don't want their husbands fiddling with the personal bits and pieces of certain strippers. It's not the bachelor parties they need to worry about anyway... normally, those guys are just looking to party (personally, I don't pay much attention to them because for obvious reasons, most of the time that's not where the money is). It's the husbands that go to the clubs alone for an hour or two and lie to their wives about where they went that are normally the guys that are looking for sex. Probably about 90% of strip club customers are either married or have a committed relationship... it's always been that way, and it's never going to change whether wives read this or not.

Which is not to say that there is anywhere in 'merika that you can't get a hooker if you want one. I once lived in a town of 300 people that had 2 hookers. They hung out on the steps of the church at the only light in town.

Prostitutes are everywhere even in the most unlikely places. It's always been that way and always will be. Although I have to admit that being in this business really made me wake up to the fact that MOST men are unfaithful. But I guess what surprised me more was finding out how many men are not just unfaithful but willing to pay for sex.

Edit - spelling

[mongo]

94. I suppose everyone has their price

but even in the example you cite, the girl was FIRED for her behavior.

I did some digging and found a post of yours on another board where you are bitching about a club making you sign a waiver stating that you would have NO illegal contact with the patrons - could that be that the club owner is TRYING to run a LEGAL business?

It is so much easier to get sex outside of a strip club, why would anyone bother? Yes, dancers have been know to cross the line, but even you state this is not the norm. Most guys don't go to a strip club looking for outright sex - and most dancers in clubs aren't supplying it - at least around here.

[Finder]

88. Just a couple of points

In many states it is illegal for a customer to touch the dancer and many reputable clubs will bounce you right out if you tried. The more hard-core clubs are few and far between in the US. The outcall strippers I have met/hired have mostly been college kids making a few extra bucks. I am sure there are promiscuous ones out there but highly doubt they would be sent to a 16yo bday party. They do ask those specifics when you hire them. I have seen many and not one has been totally nude or went beyond the act of dancing.

I think there is a difference in what we are talking about here. It is commonplace to hire a stripper for entertainment at parties with males and females. Many women go to strip clubs with their husbands as well up here in the Northeast. I for one do not equate exotic dancing with prostitution.

I also think everyone at the party was aware a stripper was coming. At least that is common.

[noiretextatique]

97. mother watches as daughter and friend are raped

headline of a story in LBL last week.
this is what happened:
the mother took her daughter, i think she was about 14, and a friend on an out-of-town shopping trip. they got a hotel room and went to the mall to shop. at the mall, they meet too young men, aged 18 and 19, and mom invites the men back to the room.
the men start making out with the girls and mom says: "well, you may as well find out about sex now" and the men and the girls have sex.
the mother and the two men got arrested for statutory rape. i have no doubt all three will be convicted.

not a single person defended the mother's actions in that thread.

i don't think the parents' in this case will be convicted of anything, to be honest.