The Weathermen- meeting violence with violence?terrorists? opinions?

[underpants]

Listening to Democracy Now on the way into work caused me to do at least minimal research on The Weather Underground (not to be confused with the current weather service) and found the following Wikipedia link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground

This of course results from the revelation of Mark Felt as "Deepthroat" and the minimal reporting of his pardon (Reagan's first act as president).

For a person of my age the first I heard of them was from stories from my brother and older friends mostly in connection with their name coming from a Dylan song (big fans we were) and the attractiveness of rebellion to youth.

From what I have read I really don't know how I see them. I understand that in times of dire circumstances dire means may be needed but from the conditioning I have received (I guess) I have never been able to sanction or approve the destruction of property and certainly not the taking of a life. The ends don't necessarily justify the means in any case no matter how noble or romantic those ends profess to be.

Opinions? Ideas? Anything?

[SmokingJacket]

1. I don't like violence, period.

I think they went a long way toward discrediting the peace movement and turning a lot of otherwise sympathetic people off.

[underpants]

21. I agree

and see posts #'s 15 and 20

[ElkHunter]

23. I agree 100%

Organizations like the Weather Underground helped to wreck the anti-war movement. Americans will not tolerate political violence so long as there remains a legal avenue of change. To raise your hand with three fingers pointed skyward like a fork in solidarity with the Manson murderers, as Weatherman leader Bernadine Dorhn did at a SDS convention in the fall of 1969, is not a path that one takes if one wants to win the hearts and minds of the American people. And it must be remembered that Nixon was able to use the violence of the Weathermen to serve his own purposes and to paint the entire anti-war movement as a bunch of crazies.

It was unfortunate that the New Left was unable to integrate it's potential and energy into American politics. Instead, it exploded into counterproductive organizations like the Weather Underground or sects like the Revolutionary Communist Party.

[Oreo]

2. Good documentary on PBS

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/weatherunderground/

[kskiska]

18. I saw the documentary. Blockbuster has it.

The Weather Underground killed no one but themselves (in the Greenwich Village townhouse bomb-making explosion). This is not to say there was no potential for deaths, but they phoned in a warning before a bombing.

The documentary is very interesting, interviewing various members about their personal motivations and how they feel today about their activities in the organization. Some have regrets, some don't.

[Joe Power]

3. I can see some of it

Property, at least, but not lives. At least in the circumstances we currently live under. Can you imagine if someone started taking out Fox transmitters? Makes sense in a twisted way. I would never do it, or even condone it, but provided no one was injured, or even had the chance to be injured, I'd certainly chuckle.

Should a government ever become completely totalitarian, and revolution the only logical response, both lives and property would be at stake. To understand the radical groups of the 60's and 70's, you have to understand the mindset. They believed that there was a revolution going on, or, at the very least, believed that they were starting one. In reality, imo, they helped kill a potentially huge social revolution.

[Mizmoon]

Violence gets out of control

I'm sure you know ... they try do a "symbolic bombing" but there's an accident and someone gets hurt, maimed, or killed... if only they could really and truly be sure no one got hurt in any way ... but they can't.

It's just a bad idea ...

i'm trying to see how many ellipses I can use in one post ...

[Joe Power]

7. I both agree and disagree

I am not a pacifist, and actually believe that sometimes violence really IS the answer, but I do agree that nothing could be much more tragic than innocents being hurt or killed by some sort of political statement.

[DeaconBlues]

4. the members of the Weathermen were living in desperate times

They were witnessing the wholesale destruction of American youth and an entire people in Vietnam, and nobody seemed to care (remember, Nixon was reelected by a landslide in '72). People were frustrated, and acted on that frustration.

I would never advocate what the Weathermen did, but I do understand that their motivations were more than just post-adolescent rebellion or pure criminality.

[DistressedAmerican]

12. WE Are Living In despertate times

WE are witnessing the wholesale destruction of American youth and an entire people in Iraq, and nobody seems to care (remember, Bush was reelected or atleast was able to steal the election in 2004). People are frustrated, and act on that frustration.

At least these these folks were kicking ass for justice. Most today sit and watch the decline gleefully between episodes of fucking American Idol (Yes, Jon Stewart, I am pissed that you wasted time on that steaming pile of crap last night!)

[DeaconBlues]

16. if there was a draft

I believe we would be seeing firebombings of recruiting centers and other focal points of power right now.

[DistressedAmerican]

17. I'm Sure You Are Right! Maybe These Folk's Work IS STILL Having

an effect. They do not want to see that again!

[leveymg]

5. Felt was in charge of a COINTELPRO program that used agents provocateur

cultivated within the leadership of the most violent factions of the anti-war, black power, alternative press and counter-cultural movements.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/newsline.html

<SNIP>

The situation in Seattle is merely one of many examples of the FBI's
campaign against the New Left. Two agents, W. Mark Felt and Edward Miller,
admitted to a grand jury that they had authorized illegal break-ins and
burglaries against friends and relatives of Weather Underground fugitives.
A 25-year FBI veteran, M. Wesley Swearingen, claimed that the FBI routinely
lied to Congress about the number of break-ins and wiretaps: "I myself
actually participated in more than 238 while assigned to the Chicago
office, conducted thousands of bag jobs." Swearingen charged that
agents had lied to a Washington grand jury about the number, locations, and
duration of illegal practices in pursuit of the Weather Underground.<10>
FBI director William Webster disciplined only six of the 68 agents referred
to him by the Justice Department. Felt and Miller were convicted in 1980,
and a few months later were pardoned by President Reagan. Today the FBI
can still use these same techniques, simply by mislabeling their targets
as foreign agents or terrorists.

In 1971 Congress finally repealed the Internal Security Act of 1950,
which provided for custodial detention of citizens whose names were on
lists of "subversives" maintained by the FBI. Over the years these lists
were expanded from Communist Party members, to all members of SDS and
other "pro-Communist New Left-type groups," and by 1970 even included
members of every "commune" where individuals reside in one location and
"share income and adhere to the philosophy of a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist
oriented violent revolution." Despite the repeal, the FBI simply changed
the names of the Security Index and Reserve Index to the "Administrative
Index," with the excuse that they were preparing for possible future
legislation. The FBI's continuation of these lists was authorized by
attorney general John Mitchell.<11>

The FBI also waged a war against the underground press. As early
as 1968 they assigned three informants to penetrate the Liberation News
Service (LNS), while nine others reported on it from the outside. These
reports were shared with the U.S. Army's Counterintelligence Branch, the
Secret Service, the Internal Revenue Service, the Navy, the Air Force, and
the CIA. The FBI set up Pacific International News Service in San Francisco
and New York Press Service on the east coast. When NYPS director Louis
Salzberg blew his cover by appearing as a government witness at the Chicago
Seven trial, the FBI's New York office tried to swing this in their favor
by preparing an anonymous letter denouncing LNS as a government front as
well. Other underground newspapers were handled more gently by the FBI,
by getting record companies to pull ads from their pages.<12>

<SNIP>

[geek tragedy]

6. Terrorists and criminals. Not really complicated. eom

[ArkDem]

10. Bingo!

[LoZoccolo]

8. It wasn't just the violence that struck me as weird about them.

It's the groupthink, the extremism that arises from everyone trying to prove their loyalty, that you could see was going to drive them off a cliff long before the Days of Rage and the bombings.

We see certain people here trying to whip up some groupthink here, but I don't think it works as well on an anonymous message board where the only thing we participate in together is conversation.

[Joe Power]

11. Groupthink

I have a friend who calls those who try and whip up groupthink, particularly among intelligent, diverse groups, "cat herders."

[leveymg]

25. Oh, there are efforts made to stir things up here too

And the results are carefully monitored and analyzed. Certain topics, such as this one, surely.

:eyes:

[LoZoccolo]

29. I guess I don't understand what you're saying here.

I'm not saying that a lot of people are advocating terrorism here or anything of that magnitude.

[Just Me]

9. I am opposed to violence.

However, what if one's means of escaping injustice and/or violence is severely limited?

I don't approve of destruction of property of property or life. But, when I consider those situations involving genocide or dictatorship or inescapable government corruption which precludes options associated with the machinery intended to ensure compliance with the rule of law,...what are the oppressed to do in such circumstances.

With respect to Felt, do people actually believe that, had he jumped through appropriate hoops, the crimes of the Nixon administration would have seen the light of day?

I am not an advocate of using any means to achieve an end. However, when people are facing opponents who DO utilize such Machiavellian measures, what actions to end such corruption are appropriate in such circumstances?

I don't have an answer. I wish I did. However, I do tend to accept that there are circumstances which force people to make decisions they would otherwise find repulsive.

On edit: this response has nothing to do with the "Weather Underground" which comes off as an extremist cult to me.

[underpants]

14. AS the Democracy Now program fairly pointed out he could have reported it

to Gray- a Nixon appointee and "hack"
Mitchell-who was later convicted of being a part of the conspiracy

or

Nixon

Yeah, any of those would have worked.

[Jose Diablo]

13. This calls for a Dylan moment

"Subterranean Homesick Blues"
by Bob Dylan

Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's somethin' you did
God knows when
But you're doing it again
You better duck down the alleyway
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coonskin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
But you only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D.A.
Look out kid
Don't matter what you did
Walk on your tip toes
Don't try "No Doz"
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don't need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is goin' to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
You're gonna get hit
But users, cheaters
Six-time losers
Hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin' for a new fool
Don't follow leaders
Watch the parkin' meters

Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance,
learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don't steal, don't lift
Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don't wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don't wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don't work
'Cause the vandals took the handles"

[underpants]

22. See posts #12 & 35

Get it? #12 & 35

[htuttle]

15. Weather was full of FBI agent provocateurs

It's hard to even say which actions were 'authentic' and which were provoked by the FBI.

For example, take the Sterling Hall bombing, which wasn't technically 'Weather Underground' (Dwight, Karl, David and Leo called themselves the 'New Years Gang', not Weather). In any case, there have been rumors around Madison for decades that the one member of the group who was never caught, Leo Burt, was actually an FBI agent. Who knows if it's true. :shrug:

It's not that the other members of the gang weren't willing to commit violence and sabotage, but the question is whether they would have gotten around to actually doing it (successfully) if not for covert provocation. There were almost a dozen arson incidents at ROTC offices, etc... in Madison during the same time period, and those were almost certainly non-FBI inspired (and unconnected to the New Years Gang). Those incidents also never killed anyone.

Looking forward to a more recent example, there have been revelations recently that the FBI had agent provocateurs in both the groups associated with Timothy McVeigh before he blew up the FBI building in OK City. Did they encourage violent actions in attempt to promote their sting operation? Again -- who knows?

In any case, as a general rule of thumb since the '60's, if you are with a group of activists, and some of them start openly advocating violence, check their shoes (are they shiny and black?). They are likely to be FBI agents.

[underpants]

20. Well

I wasn't sure what subject line to use so I went with that.

The original post was trying to evoke responses without defining the argument but I always thought that what you wrote was part of it.

Bombings and such necessarily turn off a majority of the population (whether it be out of respect for the police or fear that they too could lose their property) so that should have been A#1 thing NOT to do. I always thought (see reply post #1) that this hurt the overall all anti-war movement much more than it could possibly ever have helped. Why would they do it?

FBI (CointelPro) provocation was pretty obvious though that should not exclude people from responsibility. Also it should have been much easier to find, arrest, and parade the Weathermen in front of the cameras both as trophies and a warning. Some never were caught apparently-perhaps this was a creation and continuation of the "Bogeyman" (black hat) framing the FBI as the good guys. Perhaps to keep it open to see who else knocked on the door trying to get in (like flypaper).

As mentioned above I think "groupthink" (cultish) played a big part in this.

[KharmaTrain]

19. I Was At The Days Of Rage in 1969

Now there was the Weather Underground, The Weathermen and the Radical Weathermen...not all the same people, not all pushing the same agenda. It was a very confusing time.

I was at the "rally" in Grant Park in 1969...called by various groups (later said to be the "Weathermen") to protest the war. It was supposed to be non-violent...just partying in the park to some local bands and some speeches. Once there, word started to filter around there was going to be a march to the Civic Center (where the Chicago 7 trial was going on) and a rally was going to be held there. It was originally assumed this was part of the agenda...few knew there were cops lining Michigan Avenue in battle gear. A lot of kids got their heads busted that day not realizing the buzzsaw they were heading into.

The anti-war movement took a lot of turns over the years. Dylan's reference in "Subterannean Homesick Blues" was written in '65...a time different than what happened in '68 as to the Weather Underground and other movements that were active in and around Kent State in 1970. Some of it was people having to go underground or abroad...but it was also the fluid culture of the time.

For me, violence never justifies the means. It only sets the stage fo the next violent confrontation. Fortunately at that time there was a press and an establish alternative media that had a voice loud enough that brought the causes into the culture without the need to blow up police stations. Protests with hundreds of thousands and then millions, popular music and a awakened younger generation had a lot to do with the changes that happened at the time.

[Jose Diablo]

24. True about the date of writing "Subterranean Homesick Blues"

But a point could be made that the song expresses extreme nihilism being felt in the early and mid 60's.

It is the dissatisfaction with each and every institutional creation that sets the stage for revolution and the violence that inevitably follows the nihilism. Poets have a way of sensing what is about to happen, not with some crystal ball, but with their feelings about what currently is happening.

Revolutions don't happen in a vacuum, they are a result of a sort of collective mindset of the humans within the culture. The revolution is a way of burning down the house, to make room to build another house.

[KharmaTrain]

26. Very True and Music Says A Lot About That Time

You can go from the Peter, Paul & Mary "hootenany" stuff...the folk music...most which seems so naive now, through the what you'll call nihilistic, I'll prefer to say "awakening" stage which Dylan really symbolized. From there others like Morrison, John Fogerty, Neil Young, Paul Kantner, Joan Baez and many others would pick up on. By the early 70's the nililism did set in...but that was after years of learning to both question and not trust authority. The music shows that progression.

Alas, I'm not sure we're even at the awakening stage where this invasion is considered. I hope we won't have to go through all the other stages until some sanity is restored.

[Jose Diablo]

27. Not being a poet myself I cannot tell where we are exactly either

But is seems to me, there is a lot of mindless rage going on. Sort of a unfocused general dissatisfaction and a looking around to try to see why the dissatisfaction.

I agree about awakening stage, it's like who cares about Iraq? The immediate needs of making a living far outweigh whats going on half way around the world. I don't think Iraq will bring the anger to a focus, at least not until it becomes up close and personal, like a draft. But it doesn't need to be a draft to bring it all to a focus. 9-11 brought a focus, sort of a pre-awakening if you will, then people went right back to sleeping.

As for the nihilism, it is rampant. The children spend hours in a fantasy land of video games and make believe realities. The television programs are filled with 'reality' shows and the shows are after all just a reflection of what the viewers want. Why the escape? This generation coming of age today will make a deep mark on history, much like those from the 60's. And yes, it will be very violent period in time.

We here complain bitterly about the biased news media, and it is biased, but I think what bothers us more than the bias, is the non-involvement of a vast majority of people to what we see as issues that need to be dealt with.

[KharmaTrain]

28. Very, Very True

I should compile a list of Vietnam songs...I've heard many in recent months that ring so true today. From Edwin Starr's "War" to John Prine's "Sam Stone" and Kenny Rogers' "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love To Town". These were songs that gauged the mood at the time they were written and released. Honestly, except for American Idiot by Green Day, there are few songs that I would say have that same verve today. Yes, there's a lot of confusion out there...and it's all self-abosrbed...thus, nihilism.

But I'll submit it's also more of an escape than an obsession. It's the byproduct of a culture of quick gratification, no deposit-no return, lack of accountability and responsibility and a facination with diversions to facing reality. This works even better since every person's personal troubles are minimalized around a culture of excess that seem nihalistic, but is really status quo. As Will Rogers said in the 20's..."we're the only nation in the history of the world that is going to drive ourselves to the poor house in an automobile". It's a naievty that once again exists and it's going to take something large to jar these people from their long-induced slumber to any sort of real interest yet any activism.

I think it's too soon to tell how this regime and the war is affecting the 18-24 year olds. Many face the struggles of their own personal battles...broken families, health and education costs, having to help support a family or having to hold down their own job and so on to have the luxary of looking around too far and taking on the large monster that is the "establishment".

Cheers!

[Jose Diablo]

30. I would suggest a thought experiment

Imagine if you will, that humanity is like a huge bee hive. Each individual bee in the hive goes about its business of gathering pollen, nectar, making wax honeycombs, protecting the entranceway to the hive, laying eggs, etc.

Now in unusual circumstances, certain environmental clues, for example smoke, will cause each bee in the hive to exhibit certain behaviors that will protect the hive from that natural environmental challenge. A forest fire in most cases is not huge catastrophe, generally they burn low underbrush, dead falls, they do not consume everything like we see oftentimes today. Thus a bee's behavior to smoke by fanning the hive to keep it cooler is a response that works for a 'natural' forest fire. Does the bee think? Maybe thats what we call intelligence on a far larger scale of our human thinking.

But the point is, bee's have a natural behavior to smoke that a bee keeper can use to harvest the honey the bee's store.

I would suggest we view what the human bee keepers are doing. They are using a 'smoker' to create a predictable human response. We also have an responsive behavior, much like the bee's response to smoke, in that we collectively respond certain ways to threats (we call it fear). Now as we respond to a perceived threat by forming armies, going to war, allowing the leaders to do whatever they think they should do, but the human bee keeper is raiding our honey. Each of our stored supplies of honey is being raided while collectively we are responding to a contrived 'threat' that was made to order for these 'harvesters'. The War in Iraq is something being used to make us look in another direction while those that contrived this threat are looting and stealing our stored value (the honey).

We humans as individuals are far far smarter than the bees. So why don't we collectively see what they are doing? I would suggest that maybe we are thinking to much in 'good' guys versus 'bad' guys. Rather than seeing the agents of the bee keepers for what they are, looters, we want to say there are good ones, Dem's, and bad ones, Repubs. After all, thats what our government is for right, for us? What I see going on, is looting by both sides, which is really the same side, the agents of government. Our 'own' government has turned against us, if they ever were really for us.

I don't think the issue of Iraq will wake the giant, but when the looting is seen for what it is, that the war as little more that a shell game played by carnival con men to divert attention away from the bee keepers real agenda, well that should wake the bees to real threat.

Maybe this analogy can put things in perspective.

[KharmaTrain]

31. Can We Hope People Think So Deeply?

For some it's the fear of a draft, for others it will be trying to live with a mentally and/or physically messed-up husband, brother, son or close friend, for others it will be yet another tour in a hitch that was supposed to be over 6 months ago...and so on. Everyone's life is affected differently and the needs for survival also reflect that.

I chatted with an Iraqi vet recently who openly admitted he was living a double-life. When asked by someone he didn't know or trust his feeling about this war, he'll spout the company line without hestitation. Get him a few drinks and where he can speak freely and the story is totally different. We know where the mind and heart is. Locked away. But this is the way so many others are as well. They have locked away their emotions and replaced it with false rhetoric and phony issues to hide the concerns and pains of the real ones.

Since we don't see the war, like we saw Vietnam on our TVs every night and there's no real visible sign of war profiteering, people are blissfully ignorant of the pillage taking place. There's no direct relationship...and if anything, I sense they see the rises in gas prices not the result of the pillage and a failed policy, but of not doing enough. I fear my perceptions.

[Jose Diablo]

32. It's like playing a game

As long as people play the 'game', then the looter win. They designed the game, set the rules and have figured out every possible response to their game.

But, why play the game? If we do play the game, by their rules, they win. So why play by their rules. Let me emphasis at this point that the bee keepers have considered a revolution and also considered a response to that response. There are better responses that work against the looters. A violent response just plays into the looter's hand. And they have prepared for this, notice the large increase in security forces these last 30 years?

What has worked in the past against the looters (and they have done this many times in the past) is a massive workers peaceful response. But again, like you point out, how to get the workers pissed-off enough. I don't know. Maybe it will take a crash and a trip to the poorhouse before people will wake-up.

What won't work is playing the 'game' with their rules.

[KharmaTrain]

33. It's Creating New Games...Yes, No Rules

History has shown those who make the games and dictate the rules hold the real power. In many cases this is the elite as they have all the resources to control the levers of power...controlling the worker bees, per se...and this is what we see today with the right wing.

They've set up their own rules and a lexicon that has gone from rhetoric to mind control for so many. Terms like "liberal" and feminist or even things like equal opportunity and fairness are twisted. They have set up almost a pavlovian effect in our culture where now they just need to find the right buzzword to plug into the situation.

Like you, I have no idea of what it will take to wake people up, but I believe a large peaceful change in this country's culture will take place and there will be an "awakening" that will ensue.

[Jose Diablo]

34. We can hope

but I must sign off now, need to cut-back some kudzu. That crap engulfs everything. Too bad we cannot eat it.