Is it possible that "Deepthroat" was a hoax on Woodward and press?

[kentuck]

From reading Woodward's descriptions of the orders he was given by Felt, and how he had no idea how he could have monitored the red flag in the planter, etc, but he followed all his orders. But was there more to the Watergate story than Woodward and Bernstein have reported? Could it be that they were being used to pursue a rabbit while a fox got away? Just a thought.

[KharmaTrain]

1. What Fox?

At that time Nixon WAS the Fox. He was the "Imperial President"...and with a large election mandate (we're talking 60% of the popular vote in '72) he was on a roll. Yes, there were those who wanted to take him down...and we could go all day on the various factions and their agendas.

One group I'd rule out was the CIA. Nixon had infiltrated that operation through the clandestine games in Southeast Asia, as well as Nixon being a longtime "friend" and cold warrior. The same couldn't be said of the FBI. Remember, Hoover had just died in '72 and Gray was appointed by Nixon above Hoover's recommendation. As we've seen over and over again, turf battles can lead to some interesting bedfellows.

In restrospect, I can see how the Watergate break-in could have been the opportunity Felt was looking for rather than something that was staged. Since it involved breaking into the DNC...and possible Federal felonies (not the second-rate burglery), this opened the door for the FBI to really pry around and when they saw Gray would sit on what they found...or would retaliate or "Bolton" them if he found out what they had found out, why not use some kid reporters and see if any fishes bite.

Don't confuse the Redford/Hoffman Woodward/Bernstein we see today with the backpage copy boys they were when this story broke in '72. Felt saw the opening with this story to take a shot...fortuately he found a couple of young pups who played his games. Fortunately for all of us they did.

[kentuck]

2. It is difficult to imagine a bigger "fox" than Nixon but....

it could have been used as a diversion, for whatever reasons, not thinking that Nixon would really be forced to resign, but would be put under intense political pressure? The FBI was under pressure at the time. It had gone thru stories of spying on American citizens, assassination theories about Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, and the numerous J. Edgar Hoover stories. It is difficult to understand exactly what Felt's motives were, except most people operate in their own self interest, but by reading Woodward's account, it sounds like he was being used...

[BurtWorm]

5. Yes, he was being used, in a sense,

by Felt, who seems to have seen himself as carrying on Hoover's battles with Nixon by proxy. And who also may have been taking revenge on a boss who passed him over for promotion.

[KharmaTrain]

8. emember, This Was 1972...Nixon Really Was The Threat

The Deep Throat meetings were in Fall '72...right after Hoover had died. A lot of the stories you cite hadn't filtered into the public yet...and, honestly, I would submit many in the FBI weren't aware of either. It wasn't until the Church committee in '75 that a lot of this came forward.

I remember visiting the local FBI headquarters in the late 60's. Hoover's picture was everywhere and I remember the aura of true invinsibility this man had...especially within the FBI. There was a weekly TV series on at the time idolizing the agency...this was crafted by Hoover and all about Hoover.

There's no doubt Woodward and Bernstein were used. They always have and will. In many ways a good journalist is...that's how they get the entire story. They get used by many different people in the story as they gain the confidence of those people. It's when a reporter is willingly used, like a Judith Miller...or is planted as a "journalist" with a purposeful agenda that is different. These guys were local beat reporters...they were two steps away from the mailroom at the time.

[kentuck]

10. So why was Felt using Woodward ?

to get even with Nixon or out of conscience?

[KharmaTrain]

11. To Protect The FBI...To Get Rid Of Gray

That's my take...

IIRC, Hoover wanted his boy Clyde Tolson to take over if he were to die. Nixon appointed Gray...the first new head of the FBI in over 40 years (remember, Hoover established this whole pop stand) and Gray was viewed as a political toadie of Nixon.

Keep in mind, the FBI was stinging from the pressures the right wing was putting on it for helping bust up the Klan and prosecuting Civil Right cases in the South. Nixon's Southern Strategy was to pacify the "Dixiecrats"...lure them to the GOOP...and this meant calling off the FBI that was still investigating a lot of civil rights and other cases at the time.

From reading the book (as opposed to seeing the movie), I always came away that "Throat", or Felt operated purely out of his own self-interest and to get at Nixon for some political reason. While I never suspected the FBI and had only saw Felt's name mentioned in passing over the years, I was almost convinced Deep Throat was just a messenger for someone else anyway. Felt just cut out the middle man.

Nixon was threatening the status quo of the FBI and someone had to let this dude and other politicians know that this wasn't going over good with the "lifers" at the agency that made it go. We have seen the same thing in the 9/11 situation with both the FBI and CIA...but in this case the politicians have the upper hand. I doubt we have anyone as naive or intrepid (not sure what it would be) as a Felt in the position to know today.

I doubt there was any conscious involved as far as Felt. Nixon's abuses, while it affected the outcome of an election, was purely partisan. It wasn't viewed as an attack on the Constitution any more than wingnuts and right wingers look at the many abuses of this regime and think those are abuses of power.

Cheers

[rman]

9. Not if you realize the true power is behind the curtain.

The bigger foxes are not in public view, and maybe there was a risk of exposure related to the Nixon affair.

[BurtWorm]

4. Nice post, Kharma Train.

You could see Watergate as the ultimate wedge issue between two fiefdoms in the executive, the WH and the FBI.

[gman16]

3. Is it possible?

Yes, there is much more to the story.
Woodwards story about the NYT and the planter are in question.
When Hoover died, Nixon wanted control of the FBI and access to Hoovers personal collection of files to be out of the White House. L. Patrick Gray and Mark Felt did what they had to to prevent this from happening.
I don't think Felt acted alone, If you read the transcripts of L. Patrick Grays testimony in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee(his confirmation hearings for Head of FBI) you will notice how Gray voluntarily gives up the White House:

Byrd asked whether Gray had ever discussed the investigation with anyone at CRP (the Committee for the Re-election of the President).

"No, sir."
"With Mr. John Mitchell?"
"No, sir."
"Or with anyone from the White House?"
"Yes, sir."
"Who?"
"John Wesley Dean, counsel to the President, and I think on maybe half a dozen occasions with John Erhlichman."

Gray opened to door to the White House as Sam Ervin, chairman of the Watergate Committee, was also a member of the Judiciary Committee.
The FBI was protecting their own interests. Info on the Bay of Pigs, and the Kennedy assassination, and much more was in jeopordy of being revealed if Nixon chose to do so, so you can see why the FBI did what it did.
The surface has just been scratched concerning Watergate and WHY it happened.

[BurtWorm]

7. gman16, is your handle significant in the way I'm thinking it is?

Are you now or have you ever been?

[KharmaTrain]

12. Excellent Perspective

You're right where I was thinking here.

Time and Hollywood have distorted things a bit for many. I can see lots of people replaying JFK or All The President's Men. Things weren't as tidy then. We weren't as smart, either.

While I don't think the real "dirt"...the stuff Hoover had on Kennedy or MLK or Nixon or others was known within the FBI...their involvement in other activities sure were...especially the Cuban fiasco and their strange relationship with organized crime. I could see where a Gray was put in place to either find the ALL the dead bodies, flush out the "troublemakers" (like Felt) and keep a lid on things...or all three. This testimony really brings back some memories.

Once Watergate started to get ugly and ruining careers, everyone went for their own self interest...and this included John Dean. The FBI was no different and thank you for adding to this side of the story the corporate media won't touch since they want to make Nixon a saint right next to Raygun.

[gandalf]

6. Certainly

Don't know if you read these blogs...Rigorous Intuition and Xymphora.