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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:11 AM
Original message
"The Real Memogate"
or "Minutesgate"?
~
This article offers a little more context than many I have read.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2134/

News > June 2, 2005

The Real Memogate

By Solomon Hughes

<snip>
This is the latest in a flood of leaks undermining the war's justification, including the 2003 revelations by British weapons inspector David Kelly that the Iraqi mobile bio-war labs highlighted by Colin Powell were really military weather balloon inflators, and by intelligence translator Katherine Gun, who revealed that GCHQ, Britain's surveillance center, was spying on delegations to the U.N. Security Council at the request of the U. S. National Security Agency in an attempt to win U.N. support for invasion.

In September 2004, other secret documents revealing shared war planning were passed to the Telegraph. A March 2002 memo to Blair from his top aide, Sir David Manning, reported that he dined with Condoleezza Rice, and told her that Blair "would not budge in support for regime change" at a time when Blair was about to "visit the ranch" for talks with Bush.

In a March 2002 memo, U.K. ambassador to Washington Sir Christopher Meyer recounts to David Manning another dinner date--this time with Paul Wolfowitz. The after-dinner conversation shows that the plan for war was fixed and only the "selling" of the issue remained: "We backed regime change but the plan had to be clever it would be a tough sell for us domestically and probably tougher elsewhere in Europe."

<snip>
On May 17, Galloway testified before the U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. In response to a question from the chairman, Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.), Galloway said:

Senator, in everything I said about Iraq, I turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong and 100,000 people paid with their lives. ... If the world had listened to Kofi Annan, whose dismissal you demanded, if the world had listened to President Chirac, who you want to paint as some kind of corrupt traitor, if the world had listened to me and the antiwar movement in Britain, we would not be in the disaster that we are in today.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Connecting the dots...
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 11:35 AM by Karenina
compiling the evidence. So MANY memos, so little time... ;-) But that DOWNING STREET one reports the MINUTES of an OFFICIAL GUB'MINT MEETING... Hmmmm... wait, lemme go back and read those other memos again................................:freak:...:wtf:...:freak:
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. and then of course we have the
statements from Richard Clark and so many others. Hans Blix writes in his book about how the UN weapons inspectors were dissed by the Bush admin.
I'm not a lawyer but it sounds like a solid case to me.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. The heck with circumstantial evidence....
(I am no Lawyer either)This is corroborated evidence from many, many witnesses that bushco** was bound and determined Years before the invasion to "Do Iraq"!!!
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. Solid though it is, the DSM probably would not be admissible in court as
evidence that * was fudging the facts, only as evidence that the British government figure addressing the "Downing Street Group" believed this was the case.
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Pow_Wow Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. lots of dots
big bright ones!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. I still wonder why Murdoch's paper got the leaks. Anyone have any
ideas?

This article does refresh memory...thanks for the post.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. The real memogate is the friggin' PNAC. n/t
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. What is that url again???
Then there's Zbig's "Grand Chess Game" for those who like to read. :evilgrin:
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. That's what bugs the hell out of me.
It's right THERE for the whole damn world to see: intentions, goals, motivations, plans and ALL!!! RIGHT THERE IN THE OPEN!!!!

I mean, damn!!! What is the problem???? Are people simply failing to comprehend the impact of such a global dominance scheme as set forth in PNAC or WHAT? Don't they GET IT? Aren't they willing to confront what it means to pursue such corporate imperialistic endeavors? Have they forgotten what such ambitions MEAN?

It drives me nuts!!! It makes me wonder at the capacity of our representatives to have foresight, let alone a bit of wisdom. I can forgive the masses who expect to be handed the truth, but I have great difficulty in understanding how those who are supposed to be representing,...well,...shit,...

:shrug:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Man-o-man
I be gettin' serious computer literate in the last few days.

Here's what anyone unfamiliar with PNAC needs to peruse:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=110&topic_id=80

Then lookee what my darlin' kidlinks taught Tante to do today:

DOWNING STREET MINUTES - OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MINUTES OF AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MEETING



HOT DAMN!!! :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Wow impressive... tell them to p.m. me with directions LOL
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. There's a big ole thread in the computer group with loads of tips
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. ewww tanks...bookmarked for a not so tired night!
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. exactly
we need to get this document to all the people-=most have no clue
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. kick
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. I cringed when I heard the word "memo",
I assumed that it would get the same short-stroking that the Texas Air National Guard memo got.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Hey Dave!
Look what da chilluns done taught dey Tante to do!!! :woohoo:

DOWNING STREET MINUTES - OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MINUTES OF AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MEETING



Who say an o' bitch can't learn new tricks? :evilgrin:
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I stand
impressed.

:applause:
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. kewl
I wouldn't have the foggiest notion how to do that.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
20. & Don't forget Paul O'Neill,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1120959,00.html

Bush decided to remove Saddam 'on day one'

Former aide says US president made up his mind to go to war with Iraq long before 9/11, then ordered his staff to find an excuse

Julian Borger in Washington
Monday January 12, 2004
The Guardian

In the Bush White House, Paul O'Neill was the bespectacled swot in a class of ideological bullies who eventually kicked him out for raising too many uncomfortable questions. Now, 13 months later at a critical moment for the president, the nerd is having his revenge.

Mr O'Neill's account of his two years as Treasury secretary, told in a book published tomorrow and in a series of interviews over the weekend, is a startling tale of an administration nominally led by a disengaged figurehead president but driven by a "praetorian guard" of hardline rightwingers led by vice president Dick Cheney, ready to bend circumstances and facts to fit their political agenda.

According to the former aluminium mogul and longstanding Republican moderate who was fired from the US Treasury in December 2002, the administration came to office determined to oust Saddam and used the September 11 attacks as a convenient justification.

As Mr O'Neill, who sat in countless national security council meetings, describes the mood: "It was all about finding a way to do it. The president saying 'Go find me a way to do this'."

..more..
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. his facts in his book have been out there for a LONG TIME...the media
refused to look at it or question the "puppet in chief"....why were they looking at Iraq maps 8.5 months before 911...???????????????
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. and Richard Clarke:
How Many More Have to Come Forward?
By: Andrew Limburg
Independent Media TV

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=6490&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

<snip>
Here are some more excerpts from the 60 Minutes Interview:"Rumsfeld was saying that we needed to bomb Iraq," Clarke said to 60 Minutes reporter, Stahl. "And we all said ... no, no. Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan. We need to bomb Afghanistan. And Rumsfeld said there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan. And there are lots of good targets in Iraq. I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it.

"Initially, I thought when he said, 'There aren't enough targets in-- in Afghanistan,' I thought he was joking.

"I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection, but the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there saying we've looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked and there's just no connection."

Later Clarke speaks of pressure put on him by President Bush to connect Iraq to the 9/11 attacks. Clarke continues, "The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door, and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' Now he never said, 'Make it up.' But the entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this.

"I said, 'Mr. President. We've done this before. We have been looking at this. We looked at it with an open mind. There's no connection.'

"He came back at me and said, "Iraq! Saddam! Find out if there's a connection.' And in a very intimidating way. I mean that we should come back with that answer. We wrote a report."

Clarke continued, "It was a serious look. We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. We wrote the report. We sent the report out to CIA and found FBI and said, 'Will you sign this report?' They all cleared the report. And we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the National Security Advisor or Deputy. It got bounced and sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. ... Do it again.'

<snip>
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. And Wesley Clark
Media Silent on Clark's 9/11 Comments
Gen. says White House pushed Saddam link without evidence

FAIR Press Release (6/20/03)

Sunday morning talk shows like ABC's This Week or Fox News Sunday often make news for days afterward. Since prominent government officials dominate the guest lists of the programs, it is not unusual for the Monday editions of major newspapers to report on interviews done by the Sunday chat shows.

But the June 15 edition of NBC's Meet the Press was unusual for the buzz that it didn't generate. Former General Wesley Clark told anchor Tim Russert that Bush administration officials had engaged in a campaign to implicate Saddam Hussein in the September 11 attacks-- starting that very day. Clark said that he'd been called on September 11 and urged to link Baghdad to the terror attacks, but declined to do so because of a lack of evidence.

Here is a transcript of the exchange:

CLARK: "There was a concerted effort during the fall of 2001, starting immediately after 9/11, to pin 9/11 and the terrorism problem on Saddam Hussein."

RUSSERT: "By who? Who did that?"

CLARK: "Well, it came from the White House, it came from people around the White House. It came from all over. I got a call on 9/11. I was on CNN, and I got a call at my home saying, 'You got to say this is connected. This is state-sponsored terrorism. This has to be connected to Saddam Hussein.' I said, 'But--I'm willing to say it, but what's your evidence?' And I never got any evidence."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1842




New Yorker, November 17, 2003

Bush used 9/11 as a pretext to implement Iraq invasion plan

Clark told me how he learned of a secret war scheme within the Bush Administration, of which Iraq was just one piece. Shortly after 9/11, Clark visited the Pentagon, where a 3-star general confided that Rumsfeld's team planned to use the 9/11 attacks as a pretext for going to war against Iraq. Clark said, "Rather than searching for a solution to a problem, they had the solution, and their difficulty was to make it appear as though it were in response to the problem." Clark was told that the Bush team, unable or unwilling to fight the actual terrorists responsible for 9/11, had devised a 5-year plan to topple the regimes in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Iran, and Sudan.


Source: The New Yorker magazine, "Gen. Clark's Battles" Nov 17, 2003






Council on Foreign Relations, New York 11/20/03:

Our fractured alliances are a natural consequence of the contempt this Administration has shown our friends and partners. With the Kyoto Protocol, the Biological Weapons Convention, the International Criminal Court, the war in Iraq and in so many ways large and small, we sent the message: "your security is your own concern, and your concerns are of no concern to us."

This is no accident. It is a function of the backward way this Administration does business. Traditionally and ideally, we Americans meet our challenges by starting with the facts, analyzing the problem, and reasoning toward a solution with our citizens and our allies. This Administration does things in reverse. As we've seen in Iraq, they don't start with the facts and shape a policy; they start with a policy and shape the facts.

http://www.cfr.org/campaign2004/pub6545/wesley_clark/restoring_americas_alliances.php








Hardball, December 8 2003

MATTHEWS: We’re back with General Wesley Clark. By the way, General, packed house tonight. Big house tonight. The biggest-it’s really-it’s just seething with activity in here.

You know, you said something interesting about what happened after we were hit on 9/11, 2001, about how you got the word somewhere in the Pentagon or elsewhere that there were people already pushing for war with Iraq. Tell us about that, first, because it tells us, I think, about the mind-set of this administration going into 9/11.

CLARK: Well, I went through the halls of the Pentagon. I’d only-it must have been within a couple of weeks after 9/11. And I had been on CNN almost every day. I had been down in Atlanta and so forth. And I still felt like a military guy. You know, still looked at my sleeve, I wanted that big black stripe for general officer on there. And it felt funny, because the people-everybody that was going to be engaged in it, of course, I’d worked with them all.

So I went through the Pentagon and just kind of wanted to check in and make sure the stuff I was saying was about right in terms of what they could tell me about the intel and about their perceptions and so forth. I didn’t want to divulge any classified information, but just to sort of calibrate.

And so I went in to see Secretary Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz was there. And I went downstairs, and a guy said, sir, come in here. And I said, I don’t want to take up your time. He says, no, you need to hear this. He said, have you heard the joke? I said no, I haven’t. What joke? He said “9/11, Saddam Hussein, if he didn’t do it, too bad, he should have. Because we’re going to get him anyway.”

Of course, it wasn’t a joke. It wasn’t funny. And he didn’t tell it to me to make me laugh.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3660578






CNN Blitzer, May 22, 2005

CLARK: Well, with all due respect, Wolf, I think that's a selective reinterpretation of what actually happened.

The administration determined after 9/11 that going to war against the Taliban wasn't sufficient; that they wanted to go after Iraq. They used the evidence to justify going after Iraq. They were concerned that if they went to the U.N., somehow it might be deferred and postponed. So they went to the U.N. anyway at the urging of the Brits and Colin Powell, and they managed to just stay on the original time line, which had always called for an attack sometime in the spring of 2003. That's what they did.

They pushed it; they pushed the intelligence; they didn't do the preparation that was needed.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/22/le.01.html




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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. From his book
Winning Modern Wars, October 9 2003

Overthrowing Saddam a hobby-horse since 98-no terror threat

Iraq stood as a special case-not a sophisticated terrorist threat, but the only one of several potential rogue-state proliferators that was legally bound under UN resolutions ni 1991 to give up its WMD capabilities. In 1998, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, among 18 others, as part of the Project for a New American Century, wrote President Clinton asking him to "aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime from power. In the near-term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing." But their case was based not on any specific Iraq-terrorist connections but rather on the fear that Saddam might acquire weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. Taking down Saddam became a hobby horse for many national security experts.

There was no specific information that Saddam would be likely to team up with Al Qaeda to attack the US with weapons of mass destruction. No hard evidence was ever distributed that linked Saddam with Al Qaeda.

Source: Winning Modern Wars, by Wesley Clark, p.112-114 & 120 Oct 9, 2003
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Because Haliburton and Chaney had maps of exactly
how all the oil should be divided up long before that...isn't that why Chaney chose himself to be Vice P? They were already getting all they could illegally, so they had to get in there another way, i.e. create a war and occupation.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
23. Let's also not forget...
Cheney's energy papers that have yet to see the light of day. I'm certain they show Iraq oil fields mapped out for the war profiteers.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. perhaps only a criminal investigation/subpoena
could ever bring those to light. They seem to be out of reach for the moment. I think most everyone suspects they discussed plans to secure Iraqi oil.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
25. Good colection of video on the subject
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. quite a web site!
thanks, very interesting
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. kick
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Kick!

DOWNING STREET MINUTES - OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MINUTES OF AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MEETING


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