Scary tales from the fight for gay equality

[WilliamPitt]

I was out with a good friend last night, who told me a story I can scarcely believe.

My friend works in a high-end retail store, and they just hired a young man whom I will call Jay. Jay is gay, demonstrably so, Carson-from-Queer-Eye so. Apparently, he began showing obvious signs of his orientation at a very, very young age, like three or four years old.

This badly tweaked out his parents, so they decided to run this incredibly messed-up mind game on Jay. They took an empty jar and got a bunch of tiddly-wink-like chips. The game was this: Every time Jay did something masculine, or 'like boys are supposed to do,' a chip got put in the jar. But every time Jay did something feminine, or 'like what girls do,' they emptied out the whole damned jar and started the game over again. The idea was that, once Jay filled the jar, he could get whatever toy he wanted. Thge real idea, of course, was to 'train' him to be straight.

How's that for some messed-up shit. Jay barely remembers this because he was so young, but his older sister remembers it all too well, and filled him in on the details when he was older.

The best part? He filled the jar, won the game...and asked for a Barbie doll.

Memo to the homophobes: Can a three-year-old 'choose' to be gay? Don't think so.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

1. Thats awful and so funny at the same time

a barbie! from the mouths of babes

[BattyDem]

2. "He filled the jar, won the game..."

"...and asked for a Barbie doll."

:rofl:

Hey Jay ... good for you! :toast:


About the "training" ...
That's really sad. Those parents should be ashamed of themselves. They realized their son was probably gay at a very early age and instead of bolstering his self-confidence (knowing that he was going to face prejudice for the rest of his life), they chose to play mind games with him. :-(

[WilliamPitt]

4. My understanding

is that the parents have since removed heads from rectums and are very supportive now. I was glad to hear it, but damn.

[BattyDem]

30. That's good news ... I'm happy for Jay

:-)

[im10ashus]

32. Whew!

Thank my gay stars they finally pulled said heads from rectums. It took a while, but when I finally came out to my family, the crying and pleadings were just hysterical. I was like, "hey, I was taking ballet, tap and jazz lessons at 8 freaking years old, when other boys were out playing ball. Why all this 'I can't believe it's not a heterosexual' crap. You caught me kissing boys from age 5 on. Puhlease!" They have finally accepted it and now out of 6 kids in my family, my partner and I will be celebrating our 8th year together on June 17th. All 5 of my siblings have been married and divorced. None of their marriages lasted more than 7 years. How's THAT for the sanctity of "marriage." Thanks for the post, Will!

[FreedomAngel82]

5. I think it's sad too

How do they think it'll help things if someone is so repressed and bottled up? Wouldn't they turn angry and rebellious etc?

[MuseRider]

3. I have been

knee deep it the gay rights issue here in Kansas and you would not believe the stories I have heard. My parents tried this kind of stuff on my brother too, of course it failed. You cannot deny who you are.

These stories should be compiled somewhere. There are thousands upon thousands of them. So sad.

I hope Jay is OK and happy to be who he is. Some of the people treated in this manner don't ever really recover, my brother for one.

[sui generis]

6. my Dad was determined to get me to play baseball

after we moved back from Germany and took me to tryouts. I had played soccer and rugby (those pansy European sports) but he determined that I was by-god going to do some mainstream American sports, so I was abducted to this tryout over my extreme protestations.

My Dad knew he could rely on me not to throw a temper tantrum or embarrass him with childish behavior so he knew I was honor bound to do the tryout even though I didn't want to be there.

What he didn't figure was that I would go ahead and knock that ball out of the field and then run the bases backwards.

I didn't have problems with feminization or the opposite extreme compensation, growing a beard when twelve and perpetually challenging everyone's masculinity, followed by becoming a gay hating babtist preacher or a republican senator, but I never even pretended to be in the closet. A bajillion years of hardcore kickboxing does have its perks.

As to family, we're all good now. I had to come to realize that my parents didn't have a rule book for dealing with this, and that they had to be allowed their mistakes, just so long as they were willing to move on and learn and evolve.

I also eventually realized that I have to evolve and forgive and let go of the past so I can enjoy my present. Do more of what works, and less of what doesn't.

[johnaries]

7. A Barbie doll!

:rofl:

You know, that's a pretty good summary story for people who think you can "turn" someone either straight or gay.

I'm going to share that story, if you don't mind!

[Devlzown]

8. Reminds me of my roommate.

He's always had this thing for Wonder Woman. He used to beg his parents for a Wonder Woman doll when he was a child, but they wouldn't get him one because it was a girl's toy. If I had a child, I can't imagine refusing him something so simple for such a frivolous reason.

[bleedingheart]

12. My mom let my brother dress as Wonder Woman for Halloween

and has accepted his being gay for quite a while.

[Devlzown]

14. That's so cool.

Sounds like your mom is quite a lady.

[bleedingheart]

15. oh she is a pistol...that is for sure.

[Horse with no Name]

21. My brother is a repug and a homophobe

And his son does have some very feminine qualities.
One of the things he loved was Scooby Doo.
His favorite character was the nerdy girl who wore knee socks and glasses--I think her name was Velma. Anyway, his mom found a Velma doll and bought it for him because she believes in encouraging him to be creative (she has a masters in elementary education).
Anyway, I commented on his Velma doll and my brother got all pissed off and said it was "an action figure", lol.
I was like, okay...yeah...whatever.:eyes:
The next week my nephew was signed up playing football,lol.

[Devlzown]

25. Action figure -- LMAO!

I'm not sure what to make of him wanting a Velma doll -- I always thought Velma was a lesbian. I just hope the poor kid likes football.

[Misunderestimator]

9. I LOVE that he chose a Barbie doll...

hotwheels were always my choice ;)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Cars should be a non-sex-oriented toy.

The four types of toys I most often give to my daughters:

- Dolls
- Cars (nothing with macho stupid things like military tanks etc.)
- Assembly toys (Lego-like)
- Makeup thingies

[UdoKier]

10. Being feminine is not synonymous with gay.

A lot of guy guys were masculine growing up and played sports. Not all feminine men are gay.

I just wanted to point out that you are pushing a stereotype.


And most 3 year olds don't have even an inkling about sex...

[WilliamPitt]

11. I am not on the super-front lines of this

so I figured, as I was typing it, that I was bound to offend someone.

Yes, femimine does not mean gay. But he is gay. So...

[UdoKier]

13. I get your point. It's cool, just wanted to point it out.

Trying to train your kid to be someone he is not is not nice.

[davsand]

16. Little kids have NO concept of "gender appropriate."

Your buddy's story is sad on a couple of levels. At age three or four, most little kids have no concept (by themselves, anyway) that a toy is a "boy" or "girl" toy. They are TOLD that kind of crap by caregivers/parents/other kids.

Barbie, however, creeps me out almost as much as the gender appropriate toy thing because it is such an idealized vision of women. I really flinch when I see little kids of either gender playing with one of those things before they are old enough to talk about "pretend" rather than real.

On a totally off the wall comment, I gotta say, If he was ever spending time looking for a woman to fit that Barbie mold it's no wonder he's dating men now!



Laura

[UdoKier]

22. As a kid, I loved Wonder Woman AND the 6 Million Dollar man...

AND Space 1999 AND Charlie's Angels AND the Bionic Woman AND Starsky and Hutch AND the Sweathogs AND collected baseball cards AND I liked Mad magazine etc...


I liked all kinds of crap, and I didn't really care if it was a little girly or if it was macho - I didn't think in those terms. If something was good, it was good. I didn't lust after ANYONE as a kid, the first time I remember being turned on was from a Playboy I found in my dad's room at age 8, but I found males to be a turn-on too.

But who cares? Why are we so eager to pigeon-hole our kids? Let them be who they are and who they want to be.

[davsand]

27. Do you ever wonder that maybe androgyny is GOOD for kids?

I have never seen it discussed anyplace but I have always kind of wondered if maybe androgyny (or at least the ability to experience both traditional gender roles) probably is a part of healthy development of sexual identity.

Wouldn't you just love to see somebody publish a study that demonstrates that pushing dolls on girls and trucks on boys at a young age actually makes them LESS sexually secure when they are older?

My 8 year old has asked questions from time to time about can I marry _____? You can insert male and female names in there because it varied from day to day. I always told her she probably wasn't gonna be ready to marry for a few years yet--just love everybody in the meantime. (Nah--I'm NOT a product of the 70's!) The ONE thing I have worked like hell to avoid is giving her the idea that she can only "love" one gender or another.

What bugs hell out of me is kid's TV programming that shows the whole boy/girl thing as being the ONLY way to live--let alone showing it as being a desirable thing for kids that are SO young.

I'd never get over it if I raised a hetero-sexist, and I am scared to death that I can't undo the crap shoveled into her head by our media and our society.


Laura

[WilliamPitt]

23. If you want a woman who fits the Barbie mold

Look for the woman broken in half after her top-heavy upper region caused her wee waist to snap like a twig.

[Walt Starr]

17. Obviously "Jay" is now an adult

Think about it. Parents don't have rulebooks for this sort of thing and these parents were faced with some severe societal preassures at the time.

It doesn't excuse it, but it does help to explain the behavior.

A couple thousand years ago they might have felt they had to stone the boy!

[MissB]

18. Great story.

It is amazing what we can repress. It is also amazing how incredibly misguided parents can be.

There is a fine line there between accepting or encouraging the feminine side of a boy and deciding that the child is gay. It is a struggle that I deal with as a parent. My oldest has some feminine tendencies - I don't try to stuff them away but I do try to make it easy for him to be accepted in a society that says that boys shouldn't play with barbie dolls.

Last night he asked me if it was okay if he could wear his friend's shoes for his musical presentation (this particular friend is a girl). It struck me as funny on one hand, but then my heart just started to fucking break. Not because I'm worried that he may be gay or whatever - but because I don't want him to be ostracized for whatever he turns out to be.

Some people would condemn me for the way that I parent him, but I don't see the point in stuffing him into the stereotypical he-man male role that he doesn't seem comfortable with anyway.

[lies and propaganda]

19. my roomate couldnt understand why my gay best friend

will one day ask me to have a kid for him. He cant see that we truly hate gays in America, one of the few countries that is stuck in the dark ages.

When you take away adopted children from gay parents, the world has lost its collective mind. Unloved babies means less to us than a gay parent possibly performing on his adiopted kids what Catholic priests do with their parishioners, and no one does shit to them.

[HockeyMom]

20. Sounds like my husband's nephew and niece

They were young too. Maybe around 6 and 8? TJ's Dad used to buy him footballs, trucks, etc. TJ would steal his sisters' dolls, change their clothes, do their hair, etc. He wanted nothing to do with boys toys. His oldest sister, Chris, wanted nothing to do with dolls and would take TJ's toys, especially trucks, and play with them herself.

They are now in their 30s and both are gay. Interestingly, Chris works for the gas company and drives a truck. Guess she really did like trucks. lol

[uppityperson]

24. I was an openinded parent, believing in nurturing all sides of a child

Gave my son dolls, toys, legos, cars/trucks. You know what he used the dolls for? To ride on the trucks. Pissed me off. Hey kid, play with your dolls! vrooom vrooom go for a wide! When he got older he told people he was practicing to be a daddy with his dolls, but still prefered to give them rides on this trucks. Nature? Nurture? Made me rethink my thoughts and realized that both are important.

[kweerwolf]

28. Some "therapists" are STILL urging "positive reinforcement" ...

... for acting out appropriate gender behavior ... just like in the original post. Though I can't find it now, I think Dobson of Fuckin'-up ... oops! I mean "Focus on the Family," suggested a similar type of treatment for boys who didn't match the masculine stereotype.

While there are still groups that advocate such "treatments," I think most parents are way beyond that type of thing now. What's been amazing to me is that I've had two different sets of parents actually ask me about their sons. It wasn't an hysterical "Oh my god! Do you think he's gay?" sort of thing either ... it was more along the lines of "What can we do to make him comfortable enough to confide in us?"

[Bouncy Ball]

29. I always felt sorry for Eddie.

A kid who lived at the end of the street. When they first moved in, all the boys in the area took him into their friendship, but he was quickly and unceremoniously thrown away once they noticed his mannerisms.

That seemed fine by him, he seemed to like being alone. Or at least he acted like it.

By middle school he was getting beaten up on a weekly basis and I told the principal if something weren't done, I was calling the police. The gall of me, an eighth grader, telling the principal that. I was given detention. Told to mind my own business.

So one day they were ganging up on him as usual and I will NEVER as long as I live forget the look of fear in his eyes. He was wild with it. His big green eyes and freckles are all I remember. There must have been eight boys kicking him and twice as many girls cheering them on. So I put myself between their feet and Eddie's body and took a few kicks before they realized what I was doing and started yelling at me. But I lost it. Started screaming incoherently. I don't have any idea what I said. I'm not even sure I was completely aware, at that point, that Eddie was gay (he came out, officially, in high school). It just reminded me of every single scapegoat I had ever seen or read about and I was angry on behalf of them all.

They sort of laid off him temporarily after that and Eddie eyed me warily, like I was crazy. You'd think Eddie and I would have been great friends, but I didn't know what to say and I don't think he did, either.

I have no idea what happened to him after graduation. I know his parents sold their house and moved away.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. By the way, speaking of gender issues

I have a close friend who is due with twins any day now. She and her husband have refused to find out their genders before the birth. She said the "hyper-genderfication" (not sure that's a word, LOL!) that happens to kids will start soon enough, why start before birth?

I realized she has a good point. I've tried to buy baby clothes, but I guess because so many people find out the gender now, it's hard to find cute neutral ones. They are all beige or pale green and boring. And hardly any. Then you see just racks and racks of PINK WITH BUTTERFLIES AND FLOWERS! and BLUE WITH TRUCKS AND FIRE ENGINES! It's kind of ridiculous.

So I understand where they are coming from better now. They will have all kinds of toys, not just toys "appropriate for their gender" and I think that's great.

[tavalon]

33. I love the punch line!

I'm mortified by the story.

[Chovexani]

34. At least there was a happy ending to it

I think I was Jay's female counterpart when I was little. I hated Barbie and most of the "girl" toys, but loved playing with legos, Transformers, etc. My mom didn't understand it. The only dolls I played with were Jem dolls (I'm an '80s child), because they were huge and were rock stars and had weird clothes and spiky neon hair in colors that did not occur in nature (maybe a sign I would grow up to be a Goth?).

Anyways I had damn near all the Jem dolls, but I kinda broke my Rio (Jem's boyfriend). So, Jem didn't have a boyfriend anymore. This was very upsetting to me. It turned out that I had an extra Roxy doll (she was from the bad girl band). So I did what was perfectly sensible to my six year old girl brainl: I took one of the Roxys, cut off all her hair with my little safety scissors, stuck her in Rio's clothes and made her Jem's new boyfriend.

My fundie Mom was horrified. I had no idea why. I mean, Jem was lonely, right? What was the big deal? They looked so cute together!

Then of course, after that one episode of the cartoon where Kimber and Stormer teamed up, I decided that they were meant to be together, and I staged my own little lesbian wedding complete with bridesmaids and stuff. And stuck a "Just Married" Post-It note on the back of the Rockin' Roadster.

(Sign #1389 your daughter might just be a bisexual)