Should children be forced to learn arithmetic?

[cestpaspossible]

Poll question: Should children be forced to learn arithmetic?

[iconoclastic cat]

1. Yes. Now, get off the computer and start your homework.

[Inland]

14. Ha! Good call! nt

[tech3149]

15. If people really learned math

mabey we wouldn't see cashiers have that panic-striken look when the register screws up.

[tuvor]

2. Sure. Then they can understand things like poll results.

[Gothmog]

3. I have two daughters who do not believe that arithmetic is necessary

both of my daughters hate math and do not believe that it is necessary.

[EFerrari]

10. Give them $10 and let them loose in their favorite store.

They'll get it soon enough. :)

I hated math, also sucked at math and then, grew up. There may be only two or three things as beautiful as Algebra in the whole world -- even if it was invented by terrorists.

/spillin'

[funflower]

110. This is the right point. We focus too much on the writing down of math

before kids really understand what it means ($10 take away the price of a Barbie doll or a pack of Pokemon cards = ___). If they understand the concepts before they are require to reduce them to writing, they will be far more successful than if we start with pencil and paper.

[Cleita]

12. Better tell them to start looking for husbands, because every

job almost, even menial ones require arithmetic. One of my first jobs in college was waitressing. Back then you had to total the bill and figure in the sales tax yourself. No calculators or computers to help. Even some of the waitresses who appeared to be semi-literate knew the basic arithmetic.

Even today with computers, the servers have to cash themselves out, which means they have to count all the cash, checks and credit cards on their checks before they can leave for the day. If they don't balance with the checks, they have to make up for it.

I mean even working at McDonalds you have to make change.

[funflower]

111. What? Do none of these jobs require you to recite your times

tables from memory?

[TalkingDog]

32. Women learn math differently than men

No sexism here, studies prove it out.

Whereas men can sit and think about total abstractions (like numbers), women can absorb math better when it is related to a concrete function. So the idea about giving them $10 and putting them in a store is a great one.

Men's brains use very small focused areas to solve problems, womens use a more holistic approach, with many more areas of the brain being involved in EVERY decision.

So we (women) learn better when you can draw connections between lots of perceptual modalities (vision, taste, touch, smell, spatial/kinesthetic) as they become a sort of mnemonic device.

So to teach fractions, use apples, or gummie bears, something they can cut up and eat. That will concretize the information and embed it into different areas of the brain at the same time.

Unfortunately women math instructors have always been taught math by mostly male instructors. So they teach they way they were taught.

Yes, I hated math too. According to test scores I was in the 90th percentile in math. But I always failed the classes. Once I got into the real world and started using real-life math (I realized that I was using algebraic equations to find missing chemical amounts in glaze recipe formulas)I wished I had had a math teacher who could muster that much insight and critical thinking.

[bloom]

48. If you said

"some" women or even "most " women I might say ok.

There are 4 women I know quite well - 3 who are majoring in math in college (one's in grad school) and another who is a professional computer whiz who would prove you wrong.

And I think of directions spatially myself (my husband loves to gush about how I can find my way out of anywhere) - another thing women supposedly don't do - they(we?) are supposed to think of landmarks or something.

[Maru Kitteh]

51. No, apparently you are supposed to

look at a photograph of the landmarks while smelling incense and eating gummy bears in the SHAPE of the landmarks.

Only then will you know where you are. Only then will you know where you are going. You poor, poor, ignorant female.

<sarcasm/off>

[Maru Kitteh]

49. Jumping W on a pogo stick .......Generalize much?

While there may be tendencies for some females and males to absorb math differently broad generalizations do SO MUCH more harm than good.

My husband sometimes needs the apple device, I am much better with abstractions. What happens when 7th grade me has trouble because my teacher, filled with all this gender pop science bullcrap, decides I have no aptitude because I find his gummy bear model insulting and boring?

How about instead we teach our teachers that all people learn differently and give them the means to achieve good results based on their individual style rather than their genitalia?

I don't mean to be rude, I really don't. I just CHAFE at the continued perpetration of old and ugly stereotypes in new, slick, techno wrapping. It's the kinder, gentler face of chauvinism.

[uppityperson]

60. Nice expletive.

jumping W on a pogo stick. Good one. And I agree with the rest of your response, well said.

[TalkingDog]

70. Only to those who don't take the time to actually consider what's said.

Of course I'm not going to quote case studies and psychology studies!
You wanna know? Go look it up yourself, you purport to have a brain.

Yes, different people learn differently and at different times in their lives. But you need a starting point. The woman said her daughters hated math. I was simply suggesting some ways that have been explored that make it more interesting to them.

The latest studies of men's and womens brain's and problem solving show exactly the results I discussed in the earlier post. That ain't chauvanism...that's called science. It's spelled completely differently and has completely different goals. If you want to confuse the two and remain ignorant...have fun.

When I teach (and yes, I do have experience to back up my B.S., where's yours?) I start my very first day by discussing learning styles and trying to discover each person's individual needs. Of course it doesn't work that way and much of it is discover as you go, but I am fully aware of the differently learning styles and what that means in terms of the individual processing of information.

Even within the realm of learning styles, the fact remains, like it or not, that women's brains process information differently than men's.

As a very short woman married to a very tall man, I can tell you that short people live their lives very differently than tall people in terms of the coping skills we use to achieve the same goals. That in no way implies one's height makes one superior to the other. By the same token I am in no way saying that men's brains are superior to women's brains or vice versa. They are simply different in how they process information. That, fellow DUer, is science and no amount of pseudo-feminist defensiveness will make it any different

[Ilsa]

58. I think your example might also depend on the time in the student's life

at which they are learning the math. Concrete problems might be easier for younger students, but more complex and abstract problems might be easier after certain parts of the brain is closer to maturity.

I think alot of your point are very valid, though, and I agree with much of what you say. I just think the concrete vs abstract comparison was a little imcomplete.

[Donailin]

43. May daughter was honored at school tonight for math achievement

She is in 7th grade. Her whole educational life she was behind in math -- out of the three levels, she was always in the last level while her older brothers were always in the highest(GT and Honors).

And for the first few years when I would attempt to help her it would end up badly: she'd cry and I'd be pissed. But then I figured that there was nothing wrong with her, her brain will understand a particular concept in it's own time and she would eventually "get it" -- one day it will all "click" and make sense.

Well, that day came over the course of this past year. A few things happened: one was a great math teacher that was compatible to her style of learning, another was a talk I had with her about how to approach difficult subjects, and the third was her determination to be as good or better than her brothers. She aced this whole year with straight A's and next year she will be in double period algebra. I'm so proud of her. She did this absolutely all on her own, I mean real self discipline.

I remember telling her in fourth grade when she was really upset about being in the slow class, "Gina, don't worry. One day it's all going to make sense to you. Very often children who have a lot of trouble in one subject overcome it and end up being the best in it, and they teach it when they're adults. Watch, you'll probably be a math professor when you grow up."

Now whenever I suggest future occupations like broadway dancing or a gourmet chef, she says, "no I'm going to be a math teacher."

[TahitiNut]

113. That's how I became a high school math teacher (my first 'profession').

Due to LOTS and lots of parental drilling (mother was a bookkeeper) in elementary school, I did fine at arithmetic but hit the 'wall' when I got to Algebra. I just couldn't handle the abstractions of 'x' and 'y' instead of those familiar, tangible numbers. It was abysmal. Combined with raging post-pubescent adolescence, it made school miserable.

When I got to Geometry, I read the textbook before classes started and it ALL made sense to me. (I'd had a couple of years of Mechanical Drawing.) So, I started doing all the problems in the text and finished before the first day of classes. Needless to say, I was a bit bored, no matter how I tried to find more interest. That's when the teacher put me in AP Math -- despite abominable Algebra grades. I loved it.

Until I got to Trigonometry. It was Algebra on steroids. It was UGLY! Thank God, I had a good AP Math teacher who saw the difficulty and got me past it.

So, after I got my undergraduate degree (B.Sc.) in Mathematics, I got a job teaching ... Algebra and Trigonometry. I finally learned both subjects. (I had to, of course.) My own difficulties apparently helped me teach. Despite being assigned the lower tiered students (it was a Catholic High School that stratified the kids according to ability), my students scored higher on the state-wides than the to tiers in those subjects. (Needless to say, it was better than a ticker-tape parade down Broadway, for me.)

[dannynyc]

87. How many school children think any subject is important?

It's only after getting out of school most people realize how important basic education is.

I work on a PC most of the day. I'm very glad I am able to do some math functions in my head - it saves trying to get to the calculator on the PC.

[kliljedahl]

4. After they learn that

then mathematics.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[jmm]

5. No and when these children who

suck at math grow up I hope they become rich and I can be their accountant.

[shanti]

40. ha!

at the very least, one should be able to manage their money. if it's one thing kids understand, it's money!

i sucked at math in high school, but managed to get an A in college. I was so proud of myself too, but Algebra/Geometry is the highest math i wish to take! what use is trigonometry or calculus in my daily life?

[NoPasaran]

6. Yes! And I'll go out on a limb

And also advocate reading, writing, geography, history, and remaining quiet until called upon.

[Cleita]

7. Yes.

I was forced kicking and screaming most of the time to learn arithmetic and then algebra and geometry. It's a good thing to because no one today can get a job who can't do basic counting.

[tx_dem41]

8. Of course....silly question.

Heck, if more people knew the difference between a million, a billion, and a trillion, they just might get upset about the deficits *co is running up.

[bicentennial_baby]

9. absolutely

I'm an Algebra tutor, as well as Chem and Bio, and day after day I see these 18, 19, 20 year olds who cannot perform basic mathematical operations without a calculator. We're talking multiplication and long division here. It's shameful and not a good indicator of America's future brainpower-resource pool

[seabeyond]

11. i want to know the two that says no n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Me too n/t

[Pirate Smile]

66. No kidding. I need that explained to me.

:crazy:

[sweetheart]

13. No, Children should NEVER BE FORCED

Force is a sort of abuse, that tears the hymen and leaves the child
permanently "forced", and inclined to believe in "force" as a means,
like in torture, mass murder and military intervention.

A child should be woo'ed to the brilliance of mathematics, that they
learn to love it, and to be inspired by it. That, by the wisdom of
love, they come to immerse themselves richly, deeply in to the pool
of knowledge. This can never ever EVER be forced.

[ReverendDeuce]

16. It should required curriculum...

Along with language, science, arts, history, and, most importantly, critical thinking.

[queeg]

18. WTF?

Hell yes kids should learn math--- Unless we all want to turn into a pile of useless dreck---Look at the schools in Saudi Arabia if you want to see what Morons the Rethugs want us to be turning out---There are a million College graduates there that have had no education but religious indoctrination...

Yeah, I have a 9 year old and I ASSURE you that there have been tears during the learing of Multiplication in the last year, and I can GUARANTEE that there will be tears and yelling in the years ahead.

[sweetheart]

So you don't mean "Forced"?

Forced is like clockwork orange, learning, if anything, to hate the
subject with a loathing. Rather you mean "inspired", and given much
fire to make another go at the difficult thing.

For your kid, consider running the following advert at a local
university.

"HI, i'm a parent of a 9 years old child who is having difficulty
with mathemetics. I need a tutor who LOVES mathematics to inspire
this child. Please be very flexible, and really a profoundly
inspired mathematician... pay is good with a bonus of xxx for
delivering outstanding inspiration"

I swear, that mathematics comes from love, from a really good teacher,
from believing in yourself beyond the doubts of others, from going
the distance when others crap out.... and "force" is not the way.
I obviously mistook the word out of context. It was not force,
rather simply "required".

[Donailin]

52. see post 43

crying and yelling won't make the brain "get it" -- at least not in the way you want them to. I want my kids to learn something because they find it positively interesting and challenging.

I've seen. I've heard. I know.

[queeg]

68. The greatest feeling in the world

as a parent teaching something that includes yelling and tears is when the kid gets it, and the smile comes and both of you have tears of joy.

and There are just some things in life that you HAVE to know. there is no easy way to get around it, no cheats in life sometimes. and knowing times tables and fractions and mid level Algrbra are just some of those things. You can candy it up and make it happy and challenging or whatever, but if in the end you get to the age of 18 and Don't know this stuff, you are just roadkill on the highway of life and you need to go looking for the custodian job, and even then you may not get hired if you don't know it.

I can guarantee that your candy-assing it up and making it challenging, makes you all happy inside, but I was able to teach my kid 1x1 to 12x12 in just a few painful hours while yours is having to sit through the shit for weeks. Mine's got it pat at 9, and can test out and or pass up all the other kids in her class now because she doesn't have to wait for the slow kids. Not giving the extra oompf to your kids should be like abuse ---you are abusing their brain, not giving it all the juice it needs when it needs it or trying to give it in dribs and drabs.

It's gonna hurt for a couple of hours, but by god, you NEVER have to do it again, and it's gonna be with her for the rest of her life.

[funflower]

89. It doesn't hurt a bit if you're willing to wait until the child is ready.

Walking and talking are also essential in life, but nobody sets "standards" for when a child "must" learn to walk or talk - or face the consequences.

It's incredibly easy to teach a child math if you are willing to listen to them and look for clues as to their readiness rather than trying to force them to do things they aren't ready to do.

I would NEVER use yelling and tears as a teaching method.

[Donailin]

122. You must be

adressing someone else. I never candy assed my daughter. I had a talk with her on how to focus on subjects that are seemingly boring. Great for your son, but I just don't condone being a nazi and using trauma-inducing tactics to get a child to grasp a concept. There are other ways to get children to learn successfully without the control factor.
And I don't appreciate the "abuse" reference. Is your attention span that short? She was honored for her achievement in math, no pain was required. That you feel pain is necessary to love learning is beyond me.

[Cleita]

22. Some kids don't come to that table willingly. I was one of them.

Even after I took the mandatory math that I needed to graduate I always made a point of avoiding classes that forced me to use it, like economics and the physical sciences. I wish now that I had been forced to do those too.

[funflower]

92. Your story is actually an argument against age-based "standards" in

math education. Check out the Sudbury Valley School for a successful alternative.

www.sudval.org

[cestpaspossible]

24. Sounds like

you were not forced to learn to read and comprehend.

[sweetheart]

30. I WAS forced to learn english

and I hated it... HATED all literature and reading because i was
forced. 10 years later, in to adulthood, i suddenly went on a decade's
reading spree reading ulysees, dostoyevsky, and so many many brilliant
works that i was cheated out of earlier by people force feeding me.

I was always a lover of mathematics, but all it takes is one teacher
to shit on a student, to tell them, "your stupid and will never get
this."... why don't you go to wood shop. Force never works, and i
really do believe that love is the best thing that a school can teach;
the love of learning; the love of knowledge... as it lasts a lifetime,
not just when you're in class.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

55. the works you mentions...ulyses and dostoyevsky...

they weren't written in english. why would you have been cheated? you could have read them in just about any language you chose...

Blah...
theProdigal

[sweetheart]

69. James joyce wrote in english!

Ulysses is difficult reading, but i have NO idea what it would look
like in another language, given that many of the words are gobblygook
phonetic things to start with.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

71. but dostoyevsky did not...

and the only one who can be blamed for not reading those books is you. We have all had to learn and do things through the course of our lives that we did not want to do. Blaming someone else for 'cheating' you out of a work of art because YOU didn't like to learn the language in which it was presented to you is not very honest...YOU cheated you out of those texts. But I am glad you got to them later on...

theProdigal

[sweetheart]

74. Childhood and adulthood

Childhood and school impressions are what we're on about, no? In this
regard, my english teachers were sometimes good, obviously, as i've
been inspired enough to learn to write english fluently.

But it only takes a coupla bad teachers to give a kid a bad spin on
something, that can ruin a lifetime's education in this regard.
As much as it would be my "fault" and dishonest were i making such a
decision as an adult, we're not talking about adults.

I was in junior high when i "learned" that english was a horrible
subject, one that had little value, and one where i had no aptitude
thanks to a teacher who decided i didn't. I was spoilt for further
education in english, by a few bad eggs... as much as so many young
girls are turned off to math by a generation of maths teachers who've
turned them off.

I accept your "dishonest" criticism were i an adult at the time, but
this was in those years when it was not my fault... and for all those
kids who are getting the butt end of the stick, i hope they ignore
everything teachers tell them about their "aptitude" and tell the
teachers, coucillors and all those persons with bad judgements to fuck off.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

77. I have taught in public schools and I can see where you're coming from

and the criticism of teachers who, for lack of a better word, suck, is warranted. However, I think suggesting that students not be forced to learn a basic skill because they have been wounded by someone in the teaching field is not very realistic.

I will never forget my first 'bad' experience as a student. It was fourth grade...and my 80+ year old english teacher told me that 'south' in South Africa should not be capitalized because it was a direction. She was probably one of the worst teachers I had in all my years of schooling. When I tried to prove her wrong, she simply said that I (and apparently the World Book Encyclopedia that I had borrowed from the library) was mistaken. But instead of turning me off, it turned me on. I realized that I could learn without the aide of a teacher...that I could teach myself things and prove them to be correct. I learned more grammar because of that one incident than any other in my life.

I guess the point is that people can give bad for bad and get nothing out of it, or take the opportunity to repay bad with good and gain immensely. Please don't think that I am saying you were wrong for being discouraged in your situation, but other students should still have to learn basic skills regardless of your experience...

theProdigal

[funflower]

90. Too bad you had to go through a painful experience to learn that you

are capable of learning with or without the aide of a teacher. It was true long before you entered the fourth grade.

[sweetheart]

108. Yes, it was

nevermind.

[Poppyseedman]

39. Please forgive me, but that is about the silliest

nonsense I have ever read.

You must not have any children to wax so ridiculous

I have forced my children to do many things:

Dishes, cleaning, brushing their teeth, taking a bath, reading and yes horror upon horrors even learn mathematics by rote.

It didn't tear their hymen or teach them to "believe" in force as a means to a end. It taught them responsibility.

At first I thought you forgot a sarcasm tag!!!

[bloom]

53. I'm not sure what means of coercion

the schools used on my children - but I always made sure they knew that I wanted them to learn for their sake not mine.

I thought "forced" was a rather strong word - but I thought maybe the OP didn't really mean "forced" because it's not like you can cram information into an unwilling subject.

I tried to find reasons why my children would want to know things - and that sort of thing. I loved reading to them and they loved reading once they learned.

My son is a grad student in physics and my daughter is majoring in mathematics and they both LOVE their subjects and they love learning.

I have a friend who is of the "force" mentality and she doesn't know what to do now that her teenage son doesn't want to learn anything.

[funflower]

98. You can't teach math by rote.

Kids learning "mathematics by rote" are actually learning memorization, not math.

I have children, and they were forced to brush their teeth, etc., etc., but they were not forced to read or do math according to a *-mandated timetable. BTW, they are all above "grade level" (whatever that means this year) in math and they are fantastically curious, interesting young people.

[Donailin]

45. I just gotsta say

you're absolutely right. I tried to "force" my daughter for awhile. It wasn't pretty and it didn't help. However, every child should know math. Numbers are the only thing in the world that DON'T LIE. They're practically a source of comfort.

[Donailin]

46. self delete

[Maru Kitteh]

57. What kind of crazy hippie shit is that?

Now we're raping children by making them learn multiplication tables?

Damn, I'm all for motivational learning but one way or another they'd better learn it. There's a reason why children are not allowed to make all their own decisions.

If the child has the mental capacity to learn then YES they should be forced to obtain literacy in language and mathematics. Hopefully this will be done in an enticing and pleasant manner but it should be DONE no matter what. Children and the very young are NOTORIOUSLY ill equipped to accurately assess their own needs and make good long term decisions.

[uppityperson]

61. I agree with you and Poppyseedman @#39

People are forced to do all sorts of things. However, there need to be age and development appropriate levels and readiness for everything. I did not play music and try to force my infant to like Bach. I did not force my 3 yr old to learn numbers or floss own teeth at night. When they are capable, it is ok to force people to practice things that they will learn only by practicing. Encouragement and inspiration are also necessary and can greatly help, but yes, people need to know basic math.

[funflower]

105. NOBODY here is disputing that people need to know basic math.

The only discussion is about the pedagogical method. If children have to "practice" a lot to learn a basic mathematical concept, that is a sign that you will probably have a lot more luck if you wait a few more months or a year and try it again. To really learn math, children must understand WHY a particular algorithm works. Once they understand that, they probably won't need much repetition, if any, to master it. If the child is not ready to truly understand the problem, you will have a lot more success if you throw NCLB or whatever is driving the decision to teach a particular concept at a particular age out of the window and wait until the child is ready (not when most kids are ready or when some standard says they should be ready but when they ARE ready).

When you think about it, basic math is so easy that every teen or adult should be able to do it easily. The fact that so many people seem to have difficulty with things like counting out correct change suggests that maybe our pedagogical methods have been wrong and we need to rethink our methods.

[funflower]

97. She's not saying they shouldn't learn it. She's saying that it can't be

forced. Not only is it wrong; it's an effective pedagogical strategy.

If the child has the mental capacity (and 99.9% of them do eventually), they WILL learn to read, write and do math. Unless someone convinces them it's an awful subject and they're not good at it anyway.

Most people can't imagine this because they've never experienced anything outside of the force-based system of most schools. There are alternatives, however, and they are incredibly effective.

[redqueen]

81. "tears the hymen"?! What the hell are you talking about?

Jeez... you could've done with the trivium, I think.

[sweetheart]

114. learning is about love

You've got to "want" to learn, and no amount of force is any
replacement for self-will, self drive... and this is not instilled
by coercion. It is much better to respect the individual, and to
give them the space to come to it on their own terms. THAT is what
i mean by "tear the hymen". The sovereign individual is the basis of
life and our (non) enlightened society... because we violate her...
way too often... and then justify it with myths of abuse.

[funflower]

95. You are absolutely right, sweetheart. I've seen it happen.

If they are allowed to wait until they are ready and pursue their own individual path to learning it, children ARE drawn to the beauty of mathematics. No amount of being forced to memorize math facts and practice algorithms can produce the level of mathematical understanding that can happen when children come to math at the time and in the way that is right for them.

I've seen it. I know.

[sweetheart]

116. yes, it is sooo damn beautiful

When someone falls in love with knoweldge, nothing... NOTHING
can take it away.. no teacher, no book, no exam... and then it is just
a matter of time. Rather the pedantic thinking seems to focus on
skills and rather not on heart and love.

One day, someone taught me i was a genius, a profoundly brilliant
person who could easily learn anything i wanted... and WOW!!! it
was so true. Life is a state of mind. :-)

[dsc]

17. This isn't the silly question it seems to be

Frankly most schools have long given up on the idea of making kids learn basic arithmetic. After 4th grade or so the state tests let them use calculators and thus teachers rarely make them do arithmetic by hand. Even in my upper classes there was a substantial minority who honestly couldn't do multiplication or division without a calculator and in my algebra class virtually no one could.

[tx_dem41]

20. Schools have given up on a lot of things...

...that doesn't make it right.

[dsc]

36. I agree but I was putting his question in context

[expatriate]

28. That makes the question a little clearer - thanks

It's been about ten years now since I had to cope with the American public school system - and this is appalling. But it was beginning during my son's short school career in the 1990's. He had massive learning disabilities, though he was bright, and math was a real shocker for him as it was taught in the school. The teacher just wanted to show him how to use a calculator when he began having difficulties, but I refused. He had serious problems with short-term and long-term memory, so drilling combinations and trying to rote memorize things were virtually impossible for him (as they are for me).

But even though he was a special ed student with a curriculum that was supposed to be specifically tailored for his needs, the teacher wouldn't budge away from the combination drilling and attempts to force him to learn by rote memory. He was absolutely frustrated and despised math. We finally had to teach him ourselves, because he simply wasn't learning with the method that was being used.

He needed to learn another way - conceptually. It worked. Within a year, he was in the sixth grade math book (he was in third grade at the time). In fact, he outstripped my math ability, and his father had to take over. Math became his favorite subject, and he didn't need to use a calculator.

Same as me - I couldn't recite a multiplication table for you at gunpoint, but I can multiply. All the forcing in the world didn't teach me to multiply, but when I found the way I could understand how multiplication worked, there was no stopping me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. No we haven't given up teaching arithmetic

We teach more thinking skills in Mathematics these days. And when kids can think and reason, they can figure out those arithmetic facts.

What we have given up is teaching arithmetic strictly through memorization. It doesn't work. Memorizing without understanding is a complete waste of time and produces adults who hate Math.

[dsc]

35. I am dealing with the product in our high schools

and sorry but there is a substantial minority that simply can't do any kind of computation. I know in theory what you are saying but frankly the results have been very bad when it comes to producing students who can multiply and divide without a calculator.

[fishwax]

54. back in the "good old days" there were students like that too

I went to school in a district where rote memorization was still the norm for math facts, and I had plenty of classmates in high school who couldn't do math without a calculator. :shrug:

[dsc]

117. I took these classes in high school

and the percentage of kids who can't do simple calculations now in those classes is easily double to triple that when I was in school. It isn't even a contest.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. And we very rarely use calculators in elem school

I honestly believe you will see better Math students in a few years. We spent the 90s changing the way we teach Math. We are seeing results now. So will you when these kids get to high school.

I just tested my kids last week. I spent zero time drilling facts this year. But all of them have mastered at least 80% of their multiplication facts. And without a calculator.

[dsc]

118. I sincerely hope that is true

It is unbelievably frustrating to deal with kids who can't do the most basic of math in a geometry class.

[funflower]

107. Absolutely right. Math is thinking,

not memorization.

It's far more important for a child to understand HOW to figure out 9 x 6 than to have the answer memorized.

I think the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics advocates the "thinking" approach also.
:toast:

[yella_dawg]

19. Weird

Twice in elementary school (I finally learned) I got sent to the office for insisting my teacher teach me math. (She was teaching arithmetic. I was too young to know the difference.) So in effect, I was forced not to learn arithmetic. (Okay, math.)

[expatriate]

21. I think kids should learn arithmetic

but why "forced"?

Lots of kids don't get into math because of the way it is taught. I can't truly back myself up, so perhaps I shouldn't say this, but my personal observation has been that people tend to approach math differently than any other academic subject. What works for some kids - drilling combinations, learning things by rote - will not work for other kids. And thus, they learn early to hate math and panic when they need to use it.

I was one of those kids. I cannot learn things by rote memory. Learning the multiplication tables in blab school style - I never could do it. To this day, I cannot recite a single multiplication table, and believe me, I spent THREE YEARS trying to learn them, and I tried hard. I sang them, I said them, I studied them and closed my eyes and tried to remember them, I chanted them, and I did this faithfully. It didn't work. I can't study a poem or paragraph and memorize them either.

But once a teacher showed me the concept behind multiplication, I can see any multiplication combination as an concept in my mind. And I can give you the answer very quickly. What difference if I have the combination memorized and spit out the number, or if I see a picture of what the combination means in my mind, so long as I get the right answer? So what if I rapidly add five three times to tell you that three times five is fifteen - so long as I get there, what matter the journey?

So I can't say kids should be forced, but they do need to learn the basics of arithmetic - and it can be done in such a way that those who don't learn the standard way can still produce the right answers and understand mathematical concepts.

And no, I don't think using calculators and computers as a crutch is the way to go!

[cestpaspossible]

29. Because

I like trick questions. In this example, it appears that the overwhelming majority of respondents replied as if I had asked: "Should children be required to learn arithmetic?" -- of course I could be misinterpreting the results.

[redqueen]

82. Okay...

well this was a nice waste of time, then.

Not.

[cestpaspossible]

83. You are always welcome

to participate or not, as you see fit.

[redqueen]

84. I love to particiate

when there's a meaningful point there, somehwere.

Somehow this trick question stuff seems more like Lounge fodder, IMO.

[cestpaspossible]

85. The 'point' is

that a lot of people take polls, don't read the questions carefully enough and give kneejerk answers that can be spun by the pollsters into meaning something other than what the respondents really meant.


In a recent opinion survey on the website Democratic Underground, over 90% of respondents favored force as a childhood teaching strategy.

[redqueen]

86. Thanks ever so much.

I'm sure nobody knew that before now.

[cestpaspossible]

88. You are the one who said you didn't get it. In post 84

[redqueen]

100. Guess that means that, to me, at least, you didn't make your point

all that effectively.

I'm well aware of the importance of poll wording, sample size, margin of error, etc. I don't need silly trick poll questions to drive the point home.

[cestpaspossible]

103. Whereas to me, it simply means that you didn't get it.

In fact, you've said that didn't get it, in post 84.

Also, I have no expectation of whether or not you will understand any of the points I make in the future, but since I don't care whether you 'get it' or not, I'll keep posting, and you can either participate, or not, as you see fit, whether or not you 'get it'.

[bloom]

96. Were you "Forced" to learn arithmetic?

I think going with the sociology definition - that most people would expect young students to have appropriate "sanctions" (not necessarily violence - though some might consider that appropriate - we have had threads about that in the past) for blowing off learning whatever basic subject was being taught.

So if you're going to be "technical" - I think most people would stick with their "yes" answer. Even if it was a "trick".

Polls can - of course - always be misconstrued.

-----

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Force_%28disambiguation%29

"Force" has several meanings:

In physics, force (physics) is the fundamental cause of motion, as in F = m · a.

In sociology, force compels obedience by means of actual or threatened violence or sanctions.

In military science, a force is a military group, such as in "armed force."

In politics, political force is state-sanctioned violence used to enforce the decrees of a political regime.

In law, force of law or coming into force refer to legal validity. Also in law, "force (law)" involves either unlawful violence, as in a "forced entry".

In philosophy, force is a term going back to Frege, allowing a distinction of statements made with assertoric force(assertions), from other kinds.

In games, including some sports, certain actions or results are said to be forced when the game's rules or conventions require them, as a "forced bet" in poker or a "forcing bid" in contract bridge.

In baseball, a force means that there is a possible force play.

[redqueen]

101. Wow... you went to a lot of trouble.

Well said!

[cestpaspossible]

102. No, I wasn't forced to learn arithmetic, I was encouraged to do so

and the fact that it was a requirement never really came up, because the encouragement was so effective.


You spoke about the meaning of the word 'force' in several different contexts - philosophy, law, politics, military science, sociology, physics - but you did not speak about what it means in the context of this discussion - education.

[bloom]

120. Like I said elsewhere

I am in favor of encouragement as an educational tool. But I also rather relied on peer pressure or whatever other coercive methods schools employ to get students to go along with the program.

I don't remember having to use sanctions with homework or whatever - but it's been awhile and I could have forgotten.

I think the sociological definition was the closest of those posted on that particular website - to what would apply to education. Since you didn't offer up a definition - you had to assume what others assumed you meant - just as the people who answered the poll assumed they knew what you meant.

[Swamp Rat]

23. Not "forced."

[MissB]

25. Yes.

duh.

[LostinVA]

27. Arithmetic? Definitely. Higher math? Not necessarily.

In grammar school we learned arithmetic inside out -- adding, subtracting, division, times tables, percentages, decimals, fractions, etc. In high school I "learned" algebra, geometry, advanced algebra, and calculus. It was all like Sanskrit (which I didn't have -- I head Latin and French in HS, Greek in college!). In college I majored in English and History, and had to take something called Basic College Algebra, which was like advanced Sanskrit.

What have I used over the years? NOTHING OF THE MATH IN HS AND COLLEGE. NOTHING. Not one time, literally. Arithmetic? Every day! I can do stuff in my head.

Seriously, everyone needs English/language skills, history, some science, etc. But higher math? Why? Have advance arithmatic classes or something, or let the kids take another lit coure.

Higher math is so important, the world couldn't function without it. But seriously, not everyone can do it, and not everyone needs it.

IMO.

[seejanerun]

33. I don't know about arithmetic

but they definitely should not be allowed to read. Once they can read, they might start to think for themselves, and once they start to think for themselves, they might start to question authority, and when they question authority.... look out *.

[MrSlayer]

34. Basic math skills are essential in life.

At the very least the 4 basic functions should be, for lack of a better word, forced.

[Orrex]

37. How are those vote-percentages calculated?

:rofl:

Damn, I'm the funniest guy on my computer right now.

[WillyT]

38. Yes !!! - They Should Be Forced At Least 1,428 Times... minus 12.

:shrug:

Only because we live in a capitalistic environment.

We cannot calculate in any meaningful way, how the human soul gets ripped off, but at least there is money.

[Deja Q]

41. NO WAY. YOU TEACH THEM THIS INSTEAD:

How to sew.
How to cook.
How to garden.
How to farm.
How to use a horse.
How to make friends with others.

In post-oil age, people will need to give up advanced technologies and be forced to live simple again.

Humans were doing this a long time ago. Animal species do it all the time.

Besides, our government doesn't care. They know we're pwn3d by China. Let them do the math.

[Donailin]

50. You still need math for most of those things

sew? you gotta estimate amounts of fabric and yarn
cook? you gotta estimate amounts of ingredients when cooking for the 50 relatives that come to live with in in the dark ages to come.
garden? you have know math in order to jar for the winter.
farm? come on, there's all manner of math in farming..
horse? maybe you don't need math there unless you're looking to buy one, then you'll definitely want to be up on the market.
friends? well, you have to count ON THEM.

[AlienGirl]

106. You need geometry for gardening, too.

[funflower]

115. You can learn geometry from gardening better than the other way

around and, too some extent, better than you can learn it on paper.

[yella_dawg]

93. Hey! George can show them how to "use" a horse! n/t

[Redstone]

42. Of course we shouldn't FORCE them to learn math;

and while we're at it, let's not FORCE them to learn to read, either.

Between the two, we'll really be helping them go into the real world after then get out of school.

What a stupid question. You know that "force" is a loaded word, don't you?

Redstone

[cestpaspossible]

75. yeah

I do know that force is a 'loaded' word, in that it has a meaning, a meaning which is different from 'require', and I compliment you on being aware enough to make the distinction.

[drdtroit]

44. Math will set you free! n/t

[Donailin]

47. Yes but FUCK PLAIN GEOMETRY

Just the word geometry makes my eyes glaze over.

[yella_dawg]

91. Ummm...

I think that would be PLANE geometry.

I can see why you hate it. God only knows what they were teaching you.

[Donailin]

121. My teacher was Nazi Dictator

It was awful. Worst high school memories was from that class.

[leftofthedial]

56. Arithmetic is just a theory

Public schools should teach competing theories like guessing and being wrong most of the time.

[Redstone]

62. And "Intelligent Estimation" too.

Redstone

[leftofthedial]

64. ROFL!

that's deadly good

[Redstone]

65. Thought you'd like it. Your post was damn clever.

Redstone

[orleans]

59. of course--how else will they be able to

count their change after buying a new video game.

(did you sign the letter?
here's the link)

[LynnTheDem]

67. Would the 6 freepers who failed Grade 4 please go back to FR.

Thanks. ;)

[TrogL]

72. Simple arithmetic, yes - mathematics not necessarily

Yes, there is a distinction.

They need enough arithmetic to balance their checkbook, read a simple financial report, calculate square footage and other simple tasks.

They need enough mathematics to understand that there is such a thing as calculus, algebra, geometry, topology etc. but if they don't show a talent let's not force the issue unless it's prerequisite to their career (science, engineering etc).

[DARE to HOPE]

73. Teach them music from an early age...

...and it will be easier. :-)

[Shoeempress]

76. Yes, arithmetic, math and geometry. Not only is it useful in and of

itself, it trains the mind to be logical. People are so illogical that they believe chimpy's lies. 2 + 2 no longer equals 4 in the present landscape. Unfortunately, training the mind can be difficult and frustrating.

[Stirk]

79. That's exactly right. Subjects like algebra train you to think

logically. They're even more effective than Logic classes, in my humble opinion. The things you learn in Algebra can be applied to every subject from languages, to history, to automotive mechanics. It's invaluable.

I was an Art major, myself- but I believe that my math classes were the most valuable (non-vocational) courses I ever took.

[Stirk]

78. Umm- yes. And then algebra, geometry, trig, and calculus.

Higher mathematics classes like algebra teach people how to think rationally; how to attack a complex problem methodically, one step at a time. They're probably the most important classes kids take in school, and they require arithmetic.

Besides- you need arithmetic just to function in society.

[yella_dawg]

94. Thank God!

Somebody gets it.

People with good math skills make better voters.

[funflower]

112. And better Diebold employees, too.

;)

[immoderate]

80. I teach computer apps to adults.

I used to teach math to kids.

When I teach Excel spreadsheets I usually put an expression on the board and go around the room and ask the students to "vote" for the correct answer. Majority rules, I tell them, in my math classes. Frequently, I use the expression:


2 + 3 x 5 = _____

When I collect answers, most adults educated in the US will say 25 or 30. Most people educated in foreign countries will say 17.

Then we enter it into the spreadsheet, which follows the standard order of operations, which most Americans get in the seventh grade. The spreadsheet will display 17, which is the "correct" answer.

Then I say something like, "Remember when you went to school and said, I'll never need to know this? Well today you need to know it."

--IMM

[ultraist]

99. HS students should be required to take a basic finance class

Understanding the basics of investing money, interest rates, mortgages, time value of money, etc is very important.

I NEVER use any of the Algebra or Trig I had but I use finance concepts daily.

[AlienGirl]

104. Yes--and also Logic

Schools should teach kids the process of learning and critical thinking. Math and Logic are among the basic underpinnings of these skills.

Tucker

[Mizmoon]

109. I said "not sure"

because I wouldn't force a child dying of cancer to learn arithmetic. I also just wanted to be different and no one had chosen "not sure".

I've been reduced to these sorts of small, pathetic victories.

[ulysses]

119. erm...yeah.