BC's BJ Back in the News?

[Stinky The Clown]

Lotta Clinton posts and talk these days. I posted this inside a thread earlier today. I still love the guy ..... but .... this has to be said .......

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The Lewinsky Affair (which I prefer to call "Bill Clinton's Biggest Fuckup") was, in my opinion, huge. I actually believe it changed the course of history and caused a war.

The RW was out to get Big Dawg from before he even ran. And they tried. Oh how they tried. Hillary's description of their efforts as a great right wing conspiracy was wrong by a factor of 10 ...... at least. It was (and continues to be) far bigger and far more organized than she implied way back when. Millions of dollars were spent to bring Clinton down and none of it worked ..... until ......

The Presidential Blow Job

And for that, we have no one to blame but the Big Dawg himself. We can whine all we want about all the scummy and not so scummy personalities involved. But in the end, it was entirely, 100% the fault of the Big Dawg.

He wasn't raped, now was he? He unzipped it himself .... yanno?

And that, very seriously, was a HUGE lapse in judgment. And getting a blowjob from a 22 year old child and expecting her to keep it secret was idiotic at best, and (morally) criminal at worst. Not about the sex. About the fucking POLITICS of it. Here's the best politician perhaps in the history of the nation and he does THIS???? Come on. There is simply no excuse. Period. Not debatable.

Now mind you, I don't really care if he had a wandering weenie. Azzamatter of fact, I kinda want my Prez to be that virile. The alternative is an asexual numbnutz, like we have now.

But I digress ......

Clinton getting the ol' hummer from MzLewinsky did nothing less than change the course of history and caused a war.

Come on Stinky the Clown! Are you fucking nutz?

Nope.

Were it not for that one fact, they'd have never nailed him. Were it not for that one fact, he could have campaigned for Al Gore and given him the legacy he needed to gain the presidency. Were it not for that one fact, the peace and prosperity of the Big Dawg years would have given Gore all he needed to overcome the cheating that caused him to 'lose'. Were it not for that one fact, an Al Gore presidency would not have lead us into Iraq.

Thanks a lot Big Dawg.

I still love ya, man, but you REALLY fucked up ..... and fucked us in the process.

[Eric J in MN]

1. In Florida in 2000, Al Gore's vote count ticked backwards. nt

nt

[tuvor]

2. You're blaming Clinton for causing bush's war of choice.

O-kayyyy....

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Actually ........... yeah

...... in a manner of speaking.

Keeping it unzipped gave them exactly what they needed.

Was he consciously aware it would come to this? Of course not. But facts is facts, and dem's da facts.

Gore wouldda won, hands down.

[tuvor]

6. Then why aren't you blaming Clinton's deadbeat dad

for not teaching him how a man should behave?

Yeah, it was Clinton's dad you should be blaming. Or maybe his mother? :eyes:








I just don't understand why you're giving bush a free pass. Because that's exactly what you're doing.

[Stinky The Clown]

16. How do you get a free pass for idiot son out of this?

I'm saying Clinton *inadvertantly* set the stage for it.

Idiot son is a war criminal who directly caused it to happen.

[tuvor]

20. Easy.

Now you're saying a totally different thing.

One of your very first statements: "I actually believe it changed the course of history and caused a war."

And then you agreed when I suggested you were blaming Clinton for "causing bush's war of choice".

In my book, blaming only one person for something means you're not blaming anyone else. If you're now blaming both of them, I didn't see that at the outset.

Regardless, bush would have done what he's done whether there was a blow job or not. By hook or by crook, it may have taken another four years for him to get into the Oval Office, but his being in office is no fluke, nor is it dependent on anyone's hard-on.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Great parsing

Did you honestly not get my larger point?

[cally]

3. At the time, I was pissed off

at the RW for a ridiculous vendetta against Clinton. Now, I agree with you for the most part. Gore would be President and we would have peace if Clinton kept his pants zipped. Nothing excuses having sex with a 22 year old vulnerable intern. Clinton is responsible.


I still get furious at what the RW did and the whole impeachment and 70 million dollar endless investigations. But, there should have been nothing to find.
I disagree in what I want from my President. I would prefer someone who is more responsible with their sex life.

[Sub Atomic]

7. Cally, I lurve you dearly and have always respected your opinions

but i've gotta disagree with you on this one.

sure, clinton got a blowjob. and then he lied under oath about it.

the problem isn't what he did, the problem is with the mechanism that allowed a personal matter to become a governmental investigation.




if sex is going to be such an issue, then where is Ken Starr today looking into Jeff Gannon's unfettered access to the White House and pResident?

[Stinky The Clown]

9. It was NOT the sex

The issue is that Clinton gave the RW ... on a silver platter, all wrapped up in a red bow ..... an issue they could use against him.

They had NOTHING on him. Nada.

If he had boinked an older, more discrete woman, no problem. Even if he got caught. Who the hell would have cared if the owman were 30 ... or 40 .... or his own age.

It was NOT the sex. It was the lapse in judgment. He opened the door and they floated a battleship through it.

[cally]

11. I agree with you mostly...a personal matter

should never be part of a governmental investigation. Still, the investigation was happening and Clinton knew it. He had to have known it would become public since almost everything else had been investigated. I wish folks sex lives were private but they are not. That's the price you pay for being a public figure.

I love you, too. We can disagree.

[Lex]

5. I disagree.

The fix was in on Al Gore's run--the press vilified him and Jebbie and Cruella DeVille clearly had Florida fixed.

Bill Clinton left office with an astronomically high approval rating.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. All very true

And if it hadn't been for the BJ, Clinton would have been welcomed to campaign for Gore and Gore would have won walking away ... Cruella or not. He'd have won Tennessee .... or New Hampshire .... or some other state.

[Lex]

10. Whitewater, Paula Jones, Vince Foster -- it would've been SOMETHING

that the repukes whipped themselves into a frenzy about.

I'm not saying Clinton was justified in the Lewinsky matter, but even if the BJ hadn't happened, Al Gore may've distanced himself from Clinton because of the other "scandals" and because the VP, when running for Prez, needs to look separate and apart from the outgoing guy--like he is standing on his own 2 feet and not in the shadow of the former Prez.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Those things never really got any traction

They made a fuss and all, but the country yawned.

The BJ .... the cigar ..... oval office .... exactly what they needed. Tailor made. Far less substance, but way more deliciously lurid.

Here they even had Paula Jones and no one was 'outraged' .... even with the millions they paid her to squeal " ...... he touched me in a veery UUUUNprofeshunal maynner ........ "

Nope, all dry holes.

[amandabeech]

17. Monica was also more attractive than Paula, and did not look like

what my grandmother called "The Trash." She was also younger. She was much more sympathetic to many voters and journalists. Let's not forget Yasser Arafat.

[tuvor]

14. So instead of bush, what if someone else had been elected?

And what if they had brought all kinds of peace and prosperity to America and the world, would you be giving Clinton as much credit as the blame you're doling out right now?

Would you be posting today saying, "You know how great things are right now? Well, forget about the current president. You can thank BC's libido for all of that!"

Of course all actions have consequences immediate and far-reaching, but you can't outright BLAME 1700 dead soldiers and 100,000 dead Iraqis on an urge Clinton had last century. There's this asshole named george w. bush, see, and maybe you've heard of him...

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Please see my post (#16) above

This is in NO way an exoneration or excuse for idiot son.

But it is difficult to impossible to say that BJ *didn't* change the course of history.

[tuvor]

22. All manner of actions, big and small, change the course of history.

I don't disagree with you in that regard. It's the blame thing I simply can't fathom.

Agree to disagree, I guess?

Cheers.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Actually, if you read again, I'm not blaming him for the war

I'm blaming him for a huge lapse in judgment that allowed history to veer for the course it was on, allow idiot son to take office and do all that he's done.

Notice, at the end of my post, I also allow as to how, if Gore had gotten in, there would not have been a war.

Kinda like that nut's bullet in the head of ol' archduke Ferddie changed things ..... not caused anything directly, but caused the course of history to veer.

[amandabeech]

12. Letting Monica give him a BJ was the most stupid, undisciplined

thing that Clinton did in office. He had no idea whatsoever about Monica's reputation for discretion, and I hate to say it, discretion is usually a trait that develops late in human beings, myself included.

The White House is one huge, beautiful fishbowl. Even Bush I realized that he had to say goodbye to his mistress when he moved in. And his enemies the Dems don't usually make a big stink about sex. That's his own party's thing.

Clinton was absolutely despised, and he had already been forced to fight off the Whitewater nonsense, which had detracted from his ability to get his program across. His enemies were everywhere just looking for something to use against him. And what did he do? He broke the first rule of office politics: stay away from the interns. Then what did he do? He broke the first rule of Watergate: it's the coverup, not the crime. For a smart guy he sure was dumb.

It's possible to point to many reasons why Al Gore didn't land in the White House in January 2001. In any campaign there are hurdles to overcome, but generally, a successful incumbent can help his or her successor greatly. Right or wrong, because of the Monica mess, Clinton couldn't do that for Gore. And in a close race, everything counts.

Mind you, I don't care that much what Bill and Monica did, although I think that in boss/employee affairs, there is too frequently some element of coercion, although that does not seem to be the case here. But it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what undecided voters thought, and a lot of people didn't like it and they liked it even less that he lied to them about it.

I've seen that 60% approval rating, but I never talked to undecided voters who could honestly say that it didn't make a difference. They simply didn't want to be reminded of Clinton anymore, and Gore, bless him, reminded them of Clinton.

I think that the Big Dog owes Al an apology for his idiotic behavior, and maybe he owes us all an apology as well for thinking only of his momentary pleasure instead of his supporters and his country. Then he needs to apologize to himself, because his indiscretion robbed him of any ability to move the country further in the right direction. He'll be trying to make up for that for the rest of his life.

[jayctravis]

15. 22 year old is not a child...

but yes, it was his responsiblity as a married man to not take advantage of the situation. Monica certainly was aware of his marital status. They both lacked judgement.

But damn if Clinton didn't do everything else so well. His "crime" was victimless.

However, if we are to rate the ten commandments, I would rate "thou shall not kill" quite a bit higher and more important than "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife".

[Stinky The Clown]

19. 22 is *technically* not a child

The maturity of that particular 22 year old is a whole other matter.

And I am in now way drawing any sort of moral equivalancy between the blow job and all that idiot son has wrought.

But I can't imagine any thinking person discounting the huge significance that stupid, thoughtless (and yes ... I'll say it .... largely innocent, or at least insignificant) act had on the course of history.

[jayctravis]

25. A 22 year old can drink,

be drafted, drive a car, get married, go to jail, vote, whether they're mature or not. A 22 year old should be able to go, "hey, perhaps I shouldn't dally with the married President of the United States." This does not excuse Clinton's behavior.

But their indiscretion did not affect another country, the economy, nor the Constitution.

[Carolab]

23. If it were not for the fact that the Bushistas have control over the media

lots of skeletons would come FLYING out of Bush's closet, if ya know what I mean

[WillowTree]

26. I'll take it a step further.

I don't think that, in the final analysis, it was the BJs that did him in. Just like Nixon, it was the fact that he compounded his monumental lapse in judgment by lying about it.

If at the very beginning of the whole Monica thing he'd said something to the effect of "Not that it's anyone's business, but yes, I was doing one of the interns for awhile. She's of age and it was entirely consensual, but I admit it was unbelievably stupid. OK? Is there anything else you'd like to ask me about?" he would have come out of it alright (assuming Hillary permitted him to live through it, that is). But think about it. If he'd just admitted it, there would have been a big flutter about it in the press for a couple of weeks and the story would have died of natural causes. True, the fundamentalists would never have gotten over it, but they never did love him in the first place. And yes, it would have been brought up every so often, but the fact that he's a serial skirt-chaser was never exactly a state secret either. Dropping trou so a starry-eyed intern can blow him in the Oval Office is a remarkably classless thing to do and cheating on one's wife is still held to be pretty rotten in most quarters, but neither is an impeachable offense and in the long run he really wouldn't have been much worse off for it.

But, again like Nixon, the colossal ego kicked-in and he thought if he just stuck to the lie, no one would be able to prove otherwise. And he took it a step further and told the lie under oath. That's what got him impeached, and over what could have and should have been NOTHING.

In the end, it gave the Republicans just the dirt they needed to go after him for real, and it damaged Gore's campaign in 2000 which lead to the Supreme Court debacle and left us with a much deeper political divide and Bush in the White House. That kind of hubris is unforgivable in my book.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. "If he'd just admitted it, ...... "

I totally agree with you. The coverup changed this from stupidity to a national 'find the winkie' contest .... and from thence sprung all the other shit.

But the kernal .... the genesis ...... the seminal event (sorry, I culdn't resist that ... cuz I'm a clown at heart) was the BJ.

:hi:

[Tracyjo]

27. Yer outta yer freakin' mind... n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Wow, that's so insightful and thoughtful

Thanks for sharing that deep thinking. It makes enormous sense to me. I have no idea how I could have missed your point of view.