Whose Side Are You On? The Immigration Debate

[Itsthetruth]

CounterPunch
June 3, 2005

Whose Side Are You On?
The Immigration Debate
By TOM BARRY

Tom Barry is policy director of the International Relations Center (IRC), online at www.irc-online.org, and an associate of the IRC Americas Program.


The "whose side are you on" question about immigration is sparking political fires across the country--from U.S. border communities in southeastern Arizona, where citizen vigilantes proudly say they are protecting the "home front," to the halls of Congress. An increasingly powerful caucus of Republican representatives is pushing to close the borders to the immigrants that stream across on a daily basis and to deport the 9-10 million unauthorized immigrants living within U.S. borders.

Anti-immigrant movements are, of course, nothing new in the United States. Campaigns against new immigrants have generally coincided with the business cycle, rising in intensity with economic slowdowns, declining in times of prosperity. There are two main corollaries to this rule. One, the U.S. public generally views immigrants with more or less hostility according to the color of their skin, their English-speaking abilities, and the degree to which their religions and cultures depart from Judeo-Christianity and what conservative Harvard scholar Samuel P. Huntington calls the "American Creed."2 Two, in times of war, immigrants from nations in conflict with the United States are especially suspect.

Grassroots campaigns that blame immigrants for job losses and declining wage levels, as well as charges that fault the immigrant population for crime and public health crises, have coursed through U.S. history, ebbing and surging in response to economic and political circumstances. Certainly, the deepening sense of vulnerability experienced by many U.S. citizens today in the face of downsizing, outsourcing, stagnant wages, labor union decline, and the steady loss of medical and retirement benefits explains part of the rising anti-immigrant backlash.

But now, the restrictionist forces come to the public debate armed with a righteousness that goes beyond perceived economic threats from foreign workers. Immigration restrictionism is increasingly framed as key to homeland and cultural protection. Most of the allied anti-immigrant forces argue that the War on Terror cannot be successfully fought without gaining total control of U.S. borders, downsizing the resident immigrant population, and severely restricting new immigration.

http://www.counterpunch.org/barry06032005.html

[Walt Starr]

1. I'm on the side of safe, LEGAL, immigration

'Nuff said.

[ThorsHammer]

2. Make that two of us (nt)

[babylonsister]

3. Me, too, me, too! nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Xenophobia is far more dangerous to civilization than illegal immigration

nuff said

[Walt Starr]

44. If immigration laws are not enforced

they must either be enforced or altered to be enforcable.

'Nuff said.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Scapegoating Mexicans for problems Americans brought on themselves

makes for poor public policy. There is actually enough wealth and space and resources in this nation to make for great lives for the populations of BOTH the US and Mexico. When so called liberals team up with xenophobes in order to cure America's ills with faulty logic based on pretenses that have nothing to do with the SOURCE of our economic problems, that gives me cause to worry.

[Walt Starr]

47. Then alter the immigration laws

Illegal immigration is still illegal. Those who engage in the activity are criminals and must be treated as such.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. So you always drive the speed limit Walt? Or is this hardline

just for races you can do without?

[Walt Starr]

49. Driving five miles over the speed limit and entering a nation illegally

is like comparing apples to buffaloes.

Sorry, hardline stance on illegals. I draw the line there. If you don't like the laws, change 'em, but this is a law I support and whose enforcement I support 100%.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. How many people are harmed by careless drivers as opposed to

undocumented Mexicans crossing the border? Your law enforcement position appears to be selective.

[Walt Starr]

53. Nowhere near as many

If caught speeding, I expect a ticket as it is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine and points against my license. Currently, I have no violations on my license.

If caught illegally entering this nation, I expect the perp to be arrested and deported. No exceptions.

Illegals take jobs that legals who took the difficult but legal route could have. That' harms the LEGAL immigrants.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. SO tomorrow if we kick out all the "illegals" you and the legal immigrants

will make sure our produce doesn't rot on the vines? Laughable..completely laughable.

BTW, the largest LEGAL immigrant community in my area is called Little Saigon. They are a completely closed community. They BARELY assimilate themselves with other Americans, their business signs are all in Viet Namese and they are their own closed economy. I suggest they be a lesson to xenophobes...if you don't want a bunch of immigrants in America, try not to bomb other nations or use them as your nation's trash can...

[Walt Starr]

58. If the farmers are employing illegals

they need to be arrested and charged. That's a felony.

No exceptions.

And screaming "xenophobe:" demonstrates a level of ignorance. I am not a xenophobe. Screaming it is as disingenuous as Republicans screaming racist for disapproving of Condaleeza Rice.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. How so? Your issue is with Mexicans no matter how you cloak it

If not, then your family were illegal immigrants..certainly the Indians did not invite them to be here...did they?

Hell..for that matter it is the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS that are driving your wages down..the ones brought in by corporations on visas to drive down wages.

[Walt Starr]

60. Thanks for the personal attack

Pulling out the racist card shows you for what you are.

Where I live, there are far more illegals from eastern Europe than anywhere else.

and if we jailed those who employ illegals, the illegals will be unable to get jobs and thus won't come here illegally.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. So you supported the Minutemen because they were protecting us

from eastern Europeans?

[Walt Starr]

62. I supported the Minutemen because they were shining a light

on a problem.

And they did not once violate anybody's rights. There were allegations, but not a single incident has been corroborated.

The Minuteman effort would be better served, however, going after thopse who employ illegals. Put those people in jail and the problem will go away.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. yeah right...dressing that guy in that T Shirt was just a harmless joke

oh..and they did cost the city if Douglas about a half a million in commerce that month. Douglas' economy DEPENDS on Mexicans crossing the border, shopping, then going home...too bad the cheap shit Minutemen didn't spend a few bucks propping up the local economy while they were there. It's really hard to treat your posts with respect when it has been MORE than proven that TWO of the leaders of the minutemen were well known racists..at least a well known as David Duke.

[Walt Starr]

64. Show me the laws that were broken

They were on private land enforcing a no-trespassing posting. Not a single law was broken.

Don't like it? CHANGE THE LAW!

You will NEVER convince me that illegal aliens are anything more than criminals who deserve deportation. NEVER!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. And you will never convince me that fucking racists are a valid

substitute for trained law enforcement officials.

I guess we're at an impasse, but I will never respect anyone who supports or promotes scapegoating as a valid means of addressing our nation's economic problems.

[Walt Starr]

68. And I will never respect somebody who cries "racist"

because somebody disagrees with them on illegal immigration.

:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. Then don't support racist organizations

[Walt Starr]

77. I don't

Period.

[Deep13]

4. Negative population growth ...

...which means restricted immigration. People who cross the boarder in secret without a passport are not immigrants, they are criminals.

[RiDuvessa]

5. I'm for legal immigration.

But I am against illegal immigration.

[thoughtanarchist]

6. I'm on the on the "avoid flamefest threads" side. n/t

There's enough work to do on the issues we all agree on...nevermind the divisive hot button stuff...

[ThorsHammer]

7. I do think this is a very important issue though

It's not quite up there with Iraq or Social Security, but I would really like to see us address the border problem and create a realistic policy. We need to also address the root cause of employers looking for cheap labor as well.

[thoughtanarchist]

8. I agree I'm sorry for the snarkiness...

I just remember old threads that got too overheated on this...

[ThorsHammer]

10. No problem, agreed; I would prefer civil, rational debate too

[dejaboutique]

67. its a huge imminent issue

what are you talking about. i dont live with blinders on

[BillZBubb]

9. I'm for STIFF FINES for BUSINESSES that hire illegals.

That's the only real way to get control of the situation. As long as the Repukes (with Dem support) allow businesses to offer jobs, poor people will come here to get them. I don't blame people for trying to find a way to support their families, I would do the same thing. They aren't the problem, just the symptom.

Crack down on business's illegal hiring and voila, problem solved.

I also strongly oppose special visas to allow skilled foreign workers in. This has cratered salaries in the technical field. The result has been a huge drop in US students going into engineering and science--the very things we need to succeed long term. Young people know they can make a lot more money majoring in an easier field like business.

[thoughtanarchist]

11. Now you're talkin'

Double that fine for instances where illegals are hired and paid less than living wage for that state.

[KharmaTrain]

19. You're On Part One...This Is Several Issues

Yes, let's examine why these people come here and who really benefits from them coming here. Let's fine the shit out of the corporate farms and meat packing houses. Then let's raid a few of those tandy restaurants and country clubs...treat the immigrants with care, but frog march the owners out and then make them realize it's not worth the fines and negative PR. This is the only message these people will understand.

There's the other side of the equation here...and that's the reason why Mexicans and others come here in the first place...the working and living conditions in those countries. Mexico is an especially messy situation where decades of corrupt governments in bed with American corporations create the other side of the squeeze...using what labor they need there and then letting the others fly north to work in the large underground economy here.

We hear very little from the real victims of this "war"...those who risk coming across the border. Most are dirt poor, scared and don't speak a stitch of English. They are exploited and outright oppressed in this country...but that beats the extreme poverty and poor health care and education available there.

Think about what it takes to uproot your entire life and go to some strange place...knowing you're going to be used and exploited, but this beats the situation you're currently in. Again, a side of the story rarely seen.

[DFWdem]

28. I agree with you, but...

What happens to the millions of illegals when nobody will hire them anymore due to stiff fines? If they can't work then by default they will have to be deported, unless we are to suddenly fully support 10 million people with government aid. The only other option is to make them all citizens so they can work, but if the gov't goes that route then there will be a massive influx of illegal immigrants trying to get into the country in time to be granted citizenship.

Anyway, I agree that businesses should face stiff fines for hiring illegals, but that is only feasible if there is also a plan in place to deport all illegals.

[BillZBubb]

33. I think with no jobs, most of them will relocate themselves.

It might be a gradual process, but it would happen. They came (and come here) to get work. No work, they stop coming. Those already here eventually will get frustrated and return home to do something.

No one will agree to make all illegals here citizens. That just won't fly.

So, they wouldn't be entitled to any sort of government assistance except medical care and education of children. Without income opportunities, they'd have to return home.

I see no need to change current deportation methods in that event.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. I'm for the refugees. Legal or "illegal".

I see the usual blame the poor rhetoric is here already. The people coming here are poor people trying to survive. Just as my grandmother came here with my 9 year old mother and 5 other kids in 1919. She was Irish and white so she was "legal". Had she been Chinese she would have been "illegal" because "they" were stealing jobs, causing crime, spreading poverty, unhealthy, uneducated, etc.

It's the same old racist hypocrisy clad in pious "patriotism" and "America for Americans" that faced every new wave of immigrants.

[thoughtanarchist]

13. It's not about race. It's not about class.

It's about the law. We did not have immigration laws in 1919 like we do today.

All countries have immigration laws. There's nothing diabolical about enforcing laws we have on the books like any other nation does.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Sure it's not. And, the war in Iraq isn't about oil.

And, those "Minutemen" on the border were defending us from an influx of wealthy Swedes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. The enforced the "Chinese Exclusion Act" in 1919.

But, that wasn't about "race" or "class" either..was it?

[zanne]

41. They built the railroads under slave conditions.

They were hired by the railroads, paid very poorly and treated badly. Sound familiar?

[Itsthetruth]

18. How Do You Think 10 Million "Illegals" Should Be Expelled From The U.S.?

We could propose that the Bush government construct a wall on the border with Mexico to keep out undocumented workers.

And we could demand that the federal government conduct house to house and workplace searches to hunt down and round-up 10 million residents who are violating immigration laws.

If you and others are serious about your opposition to "illegal" immigration, would you support such federal actions? If not, what measures do you think the Bush government should take to stop the flow of "illegal" immigrants and to expell 10 million "illegals" from this nation?

[thoughtanarchist]

20. I knew this was going to get overheated.

Where do I advocate expulsion?

I was on target with my first post. I'm on the side that avoids flamefest threads.

[Itsthetruth]

25. Not Overheated Debate, Whatever That Means

I don't think this is overheated at all. I'd appreciate a clear answer to a simple question. What do you think the government should do to prevent "illegals" from entering the United States and to remove "illegals" from the United States?

If your position is the government should do nothing, I'd have to conclude that you don't actually agree with much less support enforcement of current immigration laws. And if that's true, we really don't have a serious disagreement at all!

[thoughtanarchist]

27. calling me out? fine.

President thoughtanarchist would use the troops he pulled out of Iraq to cover border security. North and south.

A visa enrollment program to get current illegals documented.

Stiff employment laws to flush out current illegals

Newly documented illegals would be able to stay if they passed criminal background checks and their employment conforms to all applicable labor laws.

Hows that?

[Itsthetruth]

36. "Calling You Out" Is Actually Called Debate And Discussion

I just asked you a simple question. I'm sorry you found that offensive.

So to stop "illegals" from entering the United States from Canada and Mexico you believe Bush should remove troops from Iraq and have a massive military build-up along the borders to supplement the Border Patrol. Is that correct?

So I'd like to know how much that would cost, how they would be armed (tanks, machine guns, etc.,)and how many soldiers you think should "protect" the Homeland borders from the "invaders". That sounds a awful lot like what the old Soviet Union did on the borders with West Germany, etc.,

And within the United States you believe that all 10 million non-criminal undocumented "aliens" should be signed-up, documented and be permitted to stay in the United States. Is that correct? In other words, amnesty! I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

[thoughtanarchist]

38. I'll vote for no dem that fails my immigration litmus test /sarcasm

I know not what the costs are for border patrol. I also do not know the cost of having 10 million illegals using our infrastructure, health care resources, police, fire, schools, social services, etc. Would you like to enlighten me?

Our current soldiers are already on the payroll, would it be presumptous to say that having them stateside would be cheaper than keeping them overseas?

Border patrol need not be heavily armed. Silly question.

I was unwilling to participate in this discussion because I see it as a distraction from what we can / need to address as progressives at this time, but since you seem so into it, let's explore your position.

how does amnesty for all solve ANY of the problems caused by illegal immigration?

Convince me. Pretend you're trying to win my vote in '08. How would president itsthetruth solve the thorny immigration issue?

[Itsthetruth]

39. Amnesty

" I also do not know the cost of having 10 million illegals using our infrastructure, health care resources, police, fire, schools, social services, etc. Would you like to enlighten me?"

As you admitted, you "do not know the cost" so let me enlighten you. Here are some relevant documented facts on the "cost" of immigrant workers to the economy.


Immigrants and the Economy
(From the National Immigration Forum)

Immigrants wear many hats in American society. They are family members, students, workers, business owners, investors, clergymen, and members of the armed services-to name just a few of their roles. According to the most comprehensive study ever done on immigrants, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) found that in all their combined roles, immigrants make indispensable contributions to our economy. They compose an increasingly essential proportion of our workforce. Through their tax payments, they help finance the costs of schools, health care, roads, welfare payments, Social Security, and the nation’s defense. Of course, immigrants are also users and beneficiaries of these government programs.

Immigrants are a Plus for our Economy – Immigrants and their children bring long-term economic benefits to the United States as a whole. Immigrants add about $10 billion each year to the U.S. economy. This estimate does not include the impact of immigrant-owned businesses or the impact of highly skilled immigrants on overall productivity.

Immigrants Pay Their Way – By conservative estimates, immigrant households paid an estimated $133 billion in direct taxes to federal, state, and local governments in 1997. The typical immigrant and his or her descendants pay an estimated $80,000 more in taxes than they will receive in local, state, and federal benefits over their lifetimes.

An Education and Training Windfall – Most immigrants arrive in the United States in the prime of their working years. More than 70 percent of immigrants are over the age of 18 when they arrive in the United States. That means there are roughly 17.5 million immigrants in the United States today whose education and upbringing were paid for by the citizens of the sending country, not American taxpayers. The windfall to the United States of obtaining this human capital at no expense to American taxpayers is roughly $1.43 trillion. This makes immigrants a fiscal bargain for our country.

Immigrant Workers are Essential to the U.S. Economy – During the recent unprecedented expansion in the American economy, immigrant workers were essential in filling jobs ranging from computer programmers to hotel and restaurant workers. As America's workforce ages, and the "baby boomers" retire, immigrants will again play an essential role in reducing a long-term projected labor shortage. The U.S. Department of Labor projects that between 1998 and 2008, the number of jobs will increase by 20 million, but the number of workers will increase by just 17 million. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has repeatedly commented that, when labor markets are tight, immigration is an important source of workers. With the U.S. labor supply projected to shrink relative to the number of jobs, Greenspan says that "there is an effective limit to new hiring, unless immigration is uncapped."

Immigrants Are Net Contributors to Social Security and Medicare – The total net benefit (taxes paid over benefits received) to the Social Security system in today’s dollars from continuing current levels of immigration is nearly $500 billion for the 1998-2022 period and nearly $2.0 trillion through 2072. Our population is aging, and each worker will be supporting a growing population of retirees. Immigrant workers will be an essential component to solving the long-term problem of financing Social Security.

Beyond Fiscal Calculations – Overall, immigrants are a fiscal bargain for American taxpayers. Of course, the value of immigrants is not primarily measured by the dollar calculation of their fiscal impact. Immigrants contribute to America in many ways other than the size of their tax payments and the amount they pump into our economy. Their enrichment of our culture and the overall vitality they bring to American society are immeasurable in fiscal terms. They are a vital benefit to all Americans.

http://www.iwfr.org/facts.asp

"how does amnesty for all solve ANY of the problems caused by illegal immigration?"

It depends upon what "problems" you have in mind. If you're honestly concerned about the economic exploitation of immigrant workers I'd have to say Amnesty for undocumented workers would make it far easier for those workers to fight such exploitation. Isn't that rather obvious?

Immigration is not a very "thorny" issue for me. Just read the inscription on the Statue of Liberty and you'll understand.

"From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[thoughtanarchist]

43. Your source does not address illegal immigrants -- just immigrants.

I thought the topic was ILLEGAL immigrants.

Working illegally.
as in "under the table".
as in "less than living wage".
as in "not paying taxes".

It does not seem entirely honest to use info on immigration in general to try to extrapolate the cost of illegal immigration. "Debate and Discussion" should remain on-topic, would you agree?

Here's a source that answers the question:

<snip>

When defense spending is not considered, illegal households are estimated to impose costs on the federal treasury of $6,949 a year or 58 percent of what other households received. When defense spending is included, their costs are only 46 percent those of other households. However, they pay only 28 percent as much in taxes as non-illegal households. As a result, the estimated net cost per illegal household was $2,736. Whether one sees this fiscal deficit as resulting from low tax payments or heavy use of services is a matter of perspective. As already discussed, illegal households comprise 3.6 percent of the total population, but as Table 2 shows they account for an estimated 0.9 percent of taxes paid and 1.4 percent of costs. Thus, both their payments and costs are significantly less than their share of the total population. Since they use so much less in federal services than other households, it probably makes the most sense to see the fiscal deficit as resulting from low tax payments rather than heavy use of public services.

Total Deficit Created by Illegals. If the estimated net fiscal drain of $2,736 a year that each illegal household imposes on the federal treasury is multiplied by the nearly three million illegal households, the total cost comes to $10.4 billion a year. Whether one considers this to be a large sum or not is, of course, a matter of perspective. But, this figure is unambiguously negative and certainly not trivial. It is also worth remembering that these figures are only for the federal government and do not include any costs at the state or local level, where the impact is likely to be significant.

<snip>

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html

So the answer is 10B a year. Saving 10B yearly could fund a lot of border patrol.

also, amnesty as a means of some future step toward fair labor strikes me as putting the cart before the horse. For each illegal immigrant granted amnesty, there'll be 10 more illegals willing to enter the country to undermine the fair labor pursued by those granted amnesty.

[Itsthetruth]

51. Your Source Is Not Reliable

"Here's a source that answers the question:"

You cited an article that appeared on the Center for Immigration Studies as your prime source for information.

I wouldn't trust the Center for Immigration Studies if I were you.

Mark Krikorian is executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies. He is also a writer for the conservative/Republican publication, National Review!

I don't think many progressives and liberals rely on conservative Republicans for factual unbiased information. Please find a reliable source we can trust.

"For each illegal immigrant granted amnesty, there'll be 10 more illegals willing to enter the country to undermine the fair labor pursued by those granted amnesty."

Let's do some simple math. So you believe that the United States will be "invaded" by 100 million "illegal" workers to undermine the 10 million undocumented workers granted amnesty!!!!

Well, that certainly would be an invasion. Will they be packing guns? I hope you don't really believe that. Sounds like paranoia to me.

[thoughtanarchist]

65. Found that source from Lou Dobbs...

Fiscal Responsibility used to be a right wing issue. Now it's ours.

The data presented seems kosher enough.

"I don't think many progressives and liberals rely on conservative Republicans for factual unbiased information. Please find a reliable source we can trust."

Looks like data to me. Forgive me as I can't find any analysis for this on commondreams or buzzflash. It doesn't seem to me that honest "debate and discussion" includes calling my progressive-ness into question for using a source I found from Lou Dobbs' site. Counter data with data and spare me the emotional appeals.

why don't YOU find this data from a source you deem acceptable?

offer alternative data if you don't trust that source. just offer data that is factual and relevant to the topic and includes real numbers, facts and stats .

Yes 10 new illegals for 1 amnesty was hyperbole. You caught it. Not meant to be presented as factual but proof of a point that amnesty does not address unfair labor.

[thoughtanarchist]

75. sorry, I did my best

to find any source where Robert Reich or Paul Krugman chimes in on this issue but it appears to be off their radar from what I can google.

the closest I found was Krugman mentioning briefly and in passing in an article about SS that some illegals pay into SS and don't collect. The CIS report takes this into account and estimates that approx 50% of illegals contribute to payroll taxes using fake SS numbers.

I appreciate the humanist perspective of your POV and would love to reconcile this with fair labor so I can share your sentiments but for me the fair labor aspect of this issue trumps the humanism of amnesty / open borders.

Maybe there's something from the Center for American Progress that addresses this issue... I'll report back if I can find anything...

:dilemma:

[thoughtanarchist]

76. here's a source from American Progress

It points out the failings in the current immigration policy and recommends enforcing our current immigration laws.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=38318

"President Bush can move immigration reform forward by voicing immediate support for the bi-partisan AgJobs (Agricultural Jobs, Opportunity, Benefits, and Security) Act and the bi-partisan DREAM (Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors) Act. The AgJobs Act provides long-overdue protections for agricultural workers, allowing them to earn eventually permanent resident status. It has the support of both the agriculture industry and farm workers. The DREAM Act grants permanent residence to children of undocumented immigrant workers who complete high school and go to college or join the military. In addition, the Administration should oppose the CLEAR (Clear Law Enforcement for Criminal Alien Removal) Act, which would deputize local police and public safety officers to enforce federal immigration law, thus delegating a federal function to law enforcement agencies that lack the training and the resources to carry it out."

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. See by post #23 below. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Great post.

[paula777]

14. So you are basically for slave labor ...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. I am? Show me.

If you're talking about immigrants working for less than the minimum wage, no I'm not. If that's not what you're talking about, then what are you talking about?

[paula777]

21. Perhaps you don't live close enough to the problem to see the effect it

Yes, they do work for less than minimum wage - sometimes as low as a dollar an hour. You can't be 'for' illegal immigration without being 'for' slave labor. Why do you think Bush and his group of idiots are doing nothing about illegal immigration - it's because they get to hire slave labor and they also know that, in effect, brings down wages in general.

I hate when people say it's racist if your not for illegal immigration. It's got nothing to do with race and you know it, you just use it to hype your opinion at the expense of common sense

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. I do live, and have lived, close to it.

And, I agree that BushCorp and their allies are only paying lip service to "immigration reform".

It is about race, and class, as much as you'd like to ignore that. What I'm saying is that the bosses (multi-national corporations) effectively force "illegals" out of their own countries to search for work elsewhere. Most of these people are non-white and are easily blamed for the poverty, crime, etc that plagues America. Not because they aren't hard working, pay their bills, pay taxes, etc, but because they are the wrong color.

[Itsthetruth]

22. Organize ALL workers!

The labor movement needs to organize ALL workers, with or without papers, in order to end business exploitation of ALL workers. When we go to a worksite to build a union we don't ask for anyones papers.

That's the only way we can end low wage (slave) labor in the United States.

And the labor movement together with progressives need to oppose all laws that discriminate against immigrant workers (legal and illegal).

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Absolutely right. The labor unions grew from immigrants.

Italians, Irish, Jews, Welsh miners, Polish steel workers. They should be organizing the new immigrants rather than blaming them for the depradations of the capitalists.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. This is a nation of immigrants..legal or illegal we should embrace

all people who come to this nation and work hard to make it tick

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. I favor unrestricted legal immigration.

If a person, or if ten million persons, come here and are not criminals in their country of origin, I see no need to keep them out.

We cannot weed out criminals if every immigrant is considered a criminal. Increased populations are, economically speaking, increased markets. If everyone was legal, we wouldn't have immigrants working for below minimum wage and unable to protest; we wouldn't have immigrant women forced into prostitution to pay the smugglers' fees; we wouldn't have illegals being used as mules for drug gangs as payoff for being smuggled across the border, initiating them into criminal activity from the moment of their arrival.

So many people don't seem to understand just how big this country is. We can absorb the immigrants, and they will make us stronger. And another point: If they are not trapped into poverty and crime because of their illegal status, a great many of them will make their money and turn around and go home, to their friends, and family and culture. Few people leave home to settle in a foreign land with strange customs because they they want to - they do it because they feel they have to. And the hundreds of thousands who do return home, after a successful and profitable stay in the US, will be ambassadors to the world for the American way of life, our constitution, our democracy.

Or, as now, they can be ambassadors for American bigotry, racism, selfishness and isolationism.

When we once had unrestricted immigration people did not just one day say, "let's move to America" because of that policy. They were encouraged by letters from people who preceded them, telling of the opportunities for success and education. People were turned away at Ellis Island if they were criminals, or were disease carriers, or were 'mental defectives'. Other than that, it was come one, come all.

What would this country be like today if we had not had the Scots/Irish immigration of 1740-1780? The Irish immigration of the early-mid 1800s? The Italians, in the late 1800s? The Jews, at the turn of the century? The Chinese and Japanese, in the mid-1800s? The central-Europeans in the late 1800s? And of course, the involuntary immigration of blacks over a period of 250 years? All these, and many lesser migrations, in the aggregate created the American culture.

The very concept of immigration quotas, which have for decades mandated higher numbers for immigrants from white, christian nations, is racist and restrictive. It should be done away with.

[Jade Fox]

26. I believe that the reason many Republicans are supporting immigration...

is that the Religious and political Right are using immigrants to swell their
ranks.

I only have anecdotal evidence to support this belief, but I have seen how
Conservative Christian organizations descend on immigrants and indoctrinate
them while helping them. The immigrants are inclined to believe what they
are told by those offering help out of gratitude and unawareness of the
political realities of this country.

[theboss]

32. I don't care about the numbers of immigrants; I just want them to be legal

I think it's crazy that we have millions of undocumented workers in this country.

It's a legal wrong.

It's a moral wrong (because they are being exploited).

And it's a security wrong.

We can let in all of Mexico as far as I am concerned. I just want it to be done through the proper legal channels.

[XemaSab]

34. I'm on the side of sending the Irish

back where they came from!

All the men ever do is drink and brawl, and all the women ever do is drink, spread typhoid, and burn down Chicago.

They're useless and they live in their little ghettos and they'll never assimilate. They're filthy, ignorant, and they follow a religion that's not what the Founding Fathers planned. They're lazy and good for nothing.

Cheap labor is useful to a point, but not when society suffers.

Ship 'em back to Ireland, I say!

[theboss]

37. No disagreement from me

But I would start with the Hungarians first...they steal babies. A mongrel gypsie race, they are.

[dejaboutique]

35. I'm with Lou Dobbs disgusted

reform now. I understand that people need work but oh well, so do millions of people already here. when I have traveled to mexico, specifically the southwestern coast I have talked to many locals and they all don't dream of coming here. Many are very happy and live good lives with their families. Many of the locals said their families are more important than money. Many said they could not imagine leaving their beautiful country. I wanted to stay. The life is slower and happier. If I immigrated to mexico I would make damn sure I was legal.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. Good..you and Lou can come pick all those veggies off the vines

in California unless you would like the fifth largest economy in the world to collapse while the fruit rots on the vine just to make a point which is specious at best.

The people harming American workers the most are whiter than white, are in this country legally and have reinvented laws via corporate contributions to make it look like THEY are the patriots.

Mexicans contribute to our economy. The UBDER WEALTHY suck it dry and blame it on Mexicans.

[dejaboutique]

69. i love jobs outdoors are you offering me one?

I love to work outside. I am self employed and would love a little job in the sun. are you offering one?

[DFWdem]

70. One question:

Who do you think picked the veggies off the vine 100 years ago? Or even 70 years ago during the Dust Bowl era? Maybe it was people who were "whiter than white". Many people migrated west from the plains states during that time. What type of work do you think they did? So to imply that Americans would not do that work is ludicrous.

[dejaboutique]

72. I live in the present not the past

is the past going to fix our economy? no. I understand that we are all immigrants and the Natives were here first but what good does that do now. I feel awful for the way things have gone but we HAVE to live in the present. time to quit wining and find a solution now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

73. Then show me the job applications. Show me the white guy that got

turned down the job. PROVE IT. I work in labor..I KNOW who is applying for those jobs..who is picking oranges in 100 degree plus weather and who is suffering the injuries in those occupations.

[dejaboutique]

74. work conditions should be safe for all

I am not saying I dont want good working conditions for current people in america, just that future immigration needs to slow down and be 100% legal. I hope that all workers have safe work environments but I am not going to whine about what happened 100 years ago.

[UdoKier]

40. I'm on the side of tightening border enforcement

and treating LEGAL immigrants like gold. Give them all the help they need to mainstream into society. Illegals should be deported. giving them amnesty, etc. is unfair to the thousands of people who did it the hard way - legally.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. I am for open borders with Canada and Mexico

We are all on the same continent and we waste FAR too many resources protecting ourselves from people who are no threat to us.

9/11 did not happen because of our borders. 9/11 happened because lobbyists decided a disaster would be less costly than fortified doors on airline cockpits.

Please scapegoat the right people or don't scapegoat at all.

[me b zola]

56. I see this issue as complicated

On one hand, as Democrats we are pro-imigrant.

On the other hand, we are pro-labor/union.

I believe that the * junta is using this issue as a way to bust unions and further decrease the ability to make a living wage. My ex came to the States illegally as a young boy with his family. He later became a citizen through the amnesty program. He works a union job and is a home owner.

What we see the * cartell pushing now is a "guest worker" program that seeks to exploit people who will work under unsafe conditions, with no benifits, & for a low-wage. I have friends/aquaintences now who are working construction jobs for $10 an hour. The company that they work for will not hire Americans because of the reasons that are stated in the preceeding sentence.


This is a complex issue that I believe that, as Dems, we need to discuss and come to some kind of agreement on. We shouldn't be flaming or yelling each other, we should be working together to be unified as to this/these issue/s.

[Sandpiper]

57. I'm on the side of the poor and powerless

And oppose kicking them in the teeth over problems that they didn't create: i.e. bad economy, diminished job opportunities for American citizens.