Religion: Who gives a shit, really?

[Modem Butterfly]

That's what I'd like to know. Who gives a shit, really?

:shrug:

[Kazak]

1. Not me...

Live and let live...those are the words I live by. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

2. Not this atheist.

Not until it intrudes, that is.

[tmorelli415]

3. Give it a rest. How old are you anyway?

[Modem Butterfly]

8. Never ask a lady her age...

She just might KICK YOUR ASS!

:grr:

:spank: :spank: :spank:

[goddess40]

58. most pretend religion is important

but they don't follow through in real life. They like to tell others how to live but don't abide by the rules themselves.
Sorry, but my favorites are those that treat their religion like a smorgasbord like the Catholics that use birth control. From what I can tell religions are democratic it is all or nothing. I'm sure someone will let me know if it changed but I know I haven't seen any huge announcement from the Pope or other religious leader. (I was raised in a Catholic household and even though I was baptized, first communion-ed and confirmed I never bought in to it because no one was going to tell me I was a second class member)

[nightfox02]

4. typically...

Canyonero driving hypocrities who like to use it as moral leverage to feed their egos...

Bush '04 (Holier than thou)

[Dorian Gray]

75. What's wrong with a canyonero?

It smells like a steak and seats 45!

[Marnieworld]

5. Best religion thread ever!

:applause: :woohoo:

[Modem Butterfly]

10. Highest Praise!

You'll make me blush!

Aw....

[BlueEyedSon]

6. 1/3 of the country, unfortunately they vote

[edhopper]

7. I care a hell of a lot.

Besides the blood that has been and continues to be spilled because of religion. I watch as my country is eliminating science, taking away rights and going to war in the name of religion. Religion itself may all be based on fairy tales and childish beliefs, but what havoc it can bring is too serious to disregard.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. Not me. n/t

[hfojvt]

11. clearly anybody who clicked on this thread

expecting some kind of discussion about religion or the lack thereof, which I still think is an alternative religion.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Not having a religion is an alternative religion?

So I guess Yul Brenner's hair color is bald?

[bryant69]

16. I am curious cause we had this discussion before

But why is charactarizing Atheism as a belief about religion offensive? Or, at a minimum, worthy of correction?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Modem Butterfly]

21. Offensive? No. Inaccurate? Yes

[bryant69]

24. How is it inaccurate?

And again, why does it matter?

Or is it that Atheism is a fact not requireing any belief, while Religion is a belief?

[Modem Butterfly]

28. Empty is another way of being full

Light is another kind of dark. Bald is another color of hair. Being pregnant is simply a different way of being not pregnant. Vegetables are a different sort of meat.

[bryant69]

31. OK

Well thank you for your attempt to answer; good luck in your future attempts to communicate with others.

[Modem Butterfly]

32. Thanks! And remember, down is just a different sort of up.

[bryant69]

35. Almost zen like in it's simplicity.

I should be writing these down.

[Modem Butterfly]

37. Why write when you can talk?

Talking is just a different sort of writing, after all.

[bryant69]

38. Brilliant.

And let me say that I respect your right to believe in the non-existance of God.

[Beetwasher]

43. And We Respect Your Right To Be Purposefully Ignorant

After all, ignorance is just another way of being educated.

[bryant69]

47. By purposfully ignorant I assume you mean religious?

[Modem Butterfly]

49. No, educated

After all, education is another way of being ignorant.

[bryant69]

54. You just get better and better.

When you debate other subjects do you insist your oppenents start by cutting their legs off at the knees (rhetorically speaking) or is it just religion?

[Modem Butterfly]

59. Once you accept...

...the argument that the absence of something is the presence of that same thing, there are a startling number of definitions that come into play.

In other words, your argument can't stand on its own merits. Find another one.

[bryant69]

65. If I dropped the word belief

Let me see how this would work.

We will now have a debate in which a religious person will discuss his or her belifs while an atheist will discuss _________________.

What phrase would fit in that blank?

[Beetwasher]

68. Lack of belief

Pretty simple.

How's your belief in the nonexistence of Qrtflmrs going?

[bryant69]

72. That could work, but rhetorically it screws atheists.

It's accurate, by your lights at any rate (and by mine), but by putting lack right there, well, it posits belief as the positive state and lack of belief as being without that positive quality. Subconciously it might not be ideal. I could be wrong though.

[Beetwasher]

73. Huh?

Do you or do you not have a lack of belief in Qrtflmrs?

[bryant69]

77. Good comeback. Shows you were paying attention

I don't have any belief in Qrtflmrs. But I'm unlikely in the extreme to get in a debate with anybody who does believe in Qrtflmrs.

And if I did, I wouldn't be going against thousands of years of tradition, nor would I be going against a society that believes that belief in a higher power is a positive thing.

[Modem Butterfly]

80. HERETIC!

I cast thee OUT!

[Beetwasher]

84. Busted.

It's irrelevant whether or not you may or may not get into an argument w/ anyone about them or thousands of years of tradition.

"I don't have any belief in Qrtflmrs"

And atheists don't have any belief in god. You're non belief in Qrtflmrs is not a belief system and neither is my non belief in your god.

[bryant69]

88. I still think using lack of belief

While accurate, rhetorically it screws atheists. I mean when is the word "lack" used in a positive context?

[Beetwasher]

89. Who The Fuck Cares?

Screws atheists??? What the fuck are you talking about?

Puhleeze. We don't need you looking out for our interests. Feel free to worry about yourself and the things that are being done in the name of your god.

[bryant69]

96. Good response

Your use of the word fuck shows that you are a serious thinker, and certainly someone that should be taken, well, seriously.

I do worry about those things, but on a friday afternoon when I have to be here at my work for anotehr hour and I got nothing to do, I am willing to spare a little time to discuss terms. I'm sorry if you find the subject offensive, but not that sorry.

[Beetwasher]

102. Fuck Fuckers Fuckity

I find very little offensive about anything. I'm very hard to offend.

How's your lack of belief in Qrtflmrs coming along?

[Modem Butterfly]

104. Praise be! He's speaking in TONGUES!

Hallelujah!

:evilgrin:

[bryant69]

106. I'm cool with it.

How about this one. We will now have a debate from a Christian expressing his (or her) position on religion and an Atheist expressing his (or her) position on religion?

[Beetwasher]

108. How Is That A Debate?

A christian believes in his or her religion and an atheist has no religion. What's to debate? There's no debating with "I believe".

[bryant69]

I don't understand that response

I mean all the time we see Atheists and Christians debating each other on these boards. Generally such debates do in fact boil down to each side asserting his or her moral superiority, but they do happen.

[Beetwasher]

115. Well, That's Stupid

I claim no moral superiority to anyone and would not engage in such pointless nonsense.

[bryant69]

117. Would that all were like you

I guess i could clarify and state that religious people generally assert moral superiority while atheists generally assert intellectual superiority. If they assert superiority.

[Dorian Gray]

110. See, my beliefs is that there are no Qrtflmrs...

[Beetwasher]

114. Good For You!

How do you know?

[hfojvt]

74. lack of belief in what?

everything? Find me somebody who does not believe in anything. An autistic? Where is John of my college days, a very clever fellow who had all kinds of arguments about his philosophy "I choose to believe there are no such things as facts."

[Beetwasher]

76. Do You Believe in Qrtflmrs?

If not, why?

[hfojvt]

90. leave my mother out of this please

I happen to be the son of Qrtflmrs, so I resent you bringing her into this.
I believe we were talking about "lack of belief" not about a religion which you have invented to mock all other religions. I prefer the theory of Fred myself, which I can PM you if you want. All praise to Fred.

[Beetwasher]

97. What Makes You Think Qrtflmrs is a Religion?

That's interesting.

Nice cop out. You don't answer because you realize what a conundrum it leaves you in.

[bryant69]

93. You don't get tired of that do you.

You'd be a better debator if you actually responded to what people are saying, rather than just repeating yourself.

I don't know what Qrtflmrs refers to. It's a semantic non-sequiter to me. Possibly there are other people who know what that word means. For example, it might mean rabbits. I do, in fact, believe in rabbits. On the otehr hand it might mean aliens from outerspace, which seems more likely. In which case I neither believe nor disbelieve in Qrtflmrs.

[Beetwasher]

99. Indeed, That's The Point

You don't know what Qrtflmrs is. For all you know, it could be many things to many people, or something different for everyone. Sounds like another concept that I know of that no one can adequately define and yet many believe in.

"In which case I neither believe nor disbelieve in Qrtflmrs."

Hmm, so, sounds like you do in fact lack a belief about it since it's not adequately defined. interesting that.

[hfojvt]

113. I can lack a belief about many things

that does not make me "void of all beliefs" as the "atheism is not a belief system" seems to imply. Atheist might like to believe that they are without "irrational beliefs" but I believe, from my own experience, that if they are honest about that quest, they will find it to be impossible.

[Beetwasher]

116. Who Says Atheism is "Void Of All Beliefs"

What is it with people trying to define atheism to suit their whimsy? No one ever said that atheists have NO beliefs. I have lot's of beliefs, however, I have NO belief in god(s).

[Modem Butterfly]

78. Reality

The nature of existance

Life, the universe, and everything

Superstition

Other religions

Souls

[bryant69]

83. And that's the rub isn't it?

If this comes down to you want Atheism to be treated as the facts and religion to be treated as personal beliefs, well, you need more to go on than answers about how up is another way of saying down.

[Modem Butterfly]

100. You're seriously projecting here

No one said anything about wanting a lack of belief treated as "the facts", except insofar as a person can not have belief without being redefined as having belief at the whim of someone else.

[jokerman93]

111. absence = presence

Actually this equation is true in some sense in poetics and Neuro-linguistics. The image of the absence of a thing calls to mind the thing itself.

And my friends, THAT is what's meant by "New Math"!

[hfojvt]

70. educated does seem to be a way of arrogantly forgetting

how ignorant we all are.
The sum total of humanity's knowlegde represents what fraction of all knowledge? 10% or .01%. And the most educated human knows what percentage of all of humanity's knowledge? 30%? With my seven years of university education and thirty years of reading am I up to 10% yet?

[Beetwasher]

53. Nope

I meant purposefully ignorant. If I meant religious, I would have said religious. Communication is like that.

[Bouncy Ball]

48. WTF???

What the fuck is THIS about?

So because I believe there is a higher power, I'm "purposefully ignorant?"

Nice, very nice.

Whatever. My belief in a higher power doesn't harm you or anyone else one little stinking bit. So what's the deal? Why the insults?

You don't see me insulting atheists or agnostics. In fact, I'm usually quite quick to defend you and WILL defend your right to believe or not believe whatever you want any day of the week.

But I don't expect to get insulted in return.

[Modem Butterfly]

52. Nobody's saying that

But the argument that atheism is a religion is patently false and silly. Clinging to such an argument is purposely ignorant.

[bryant69]

55. There is a difference between saying that

Atheism is a religion, and saying it is a religious belief or a belief about religion. The two are distinct.

[beam me up scottie]

57. Yeah, except they're both WRONG.

[Modem Butterfly]

60. Which is the same thing as both being right.

Right? I mean, wrong?

[bryant69]

61. Because

You and some atheists want to have your convictions about religion treated as facts. I can understand why you would want that. Rhetorically it gives you a leg up if you get to talk about the certainty of Atheism or the fact of Atheism and those who disagree with you have to talk about their beliefs or their convictions.

It's a rhetorical leg up, and I can understand why you want it. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

[beam me up scottie]

85. What a load of bullshit.

You not only cannot accept how I define myself but you insult me by saying I use YOUR definition to get a "leg up".

Delusional much?

Your definition is garbage.

You have no clue.

You insult me and my fellow atheists.

Now I can see why you didn't GET IT before, you cannot comprehend what I am saying.

Sorry but that's your problem, not mine, I'm not running an educational daycare for the atheistically challenged.

[Dorian Gray]

107. The problem here is one of semantics.

The atheists claim that they do not believe in God, whereas the theists claim that an atheists BELIEF is that there is no God. It's the same thing, really.

There is an absense of belief in God, but there is also a belief that there is no God. I will say it whichever way makes people happy.

[beam me up scottie]

119. The PROBLEM here is that

a few theists refuse to let atheists define themselves and their lack of beliefs.

Why the fuck do they care how we define ourselves?

Does everything have to gel with their narrow view of the world?

This is one of the stupidest arguments regarding ignorance I have ever seen and yet it occurs almost weekly on this board.

If other theists get it, why can't they?

Because they don't WANT to.

[hfojvt]

82. that seems to be one of the tenets of your religion

but I do not accept it. I seldom find the "arrogant smarta$$" argument to be very convincing. Mocking a hypothesis is not part of the scientific method, as I remember it.

[Modem Butterfly]

87. Actually, you find it very convincing

You just won't admit it because it would cut the rhetorical legs out from under you.

Oooh, that was fun! No wonder that argument seems to be so addictive.

[beam me up scottie]

91. Rejecting another's definition of himself because

you can't understand seems to be an arrogant smartass argument.

[hfojvt]

95. I never said that somebody was not an atheist

only that I think of atheism as another belief system or group of belief systems. Certainly I am not trying to say that theism is superior or somehow over-arching, only that atheism is not a "non-belief system" (okay maybe nihilism is, but it is hard to be a pure nihilist without going crazy)

[beam me up scottie]

109. You can think whatever the hell you want.

But when you redefine me and my atheism to suit your world view, we've got a problem.

[Beetwasher]

56. Relax

You misunderstood my post.

I'm referring to the posters attitude that my non-belief is actually a belief, even though he's been told a million times the difference.

[Bouncy Ball]

63. Oh.

Sorry.

Yeesh, this is the second "I fucking hate religion" thread I've read in ten minutes and I guess it finally got to me. And that's unusual.

So sorry.

[Modem Butterfly]

67. Actually, this is a "Who give a shit" thread

Hating religion requires giving a shit.

[Bouncy Ball]

69. ...

:eyes:

Ok. Whatever.

I think I just stopped giving a shit about this thread, thanks!

[hfojvt]

64. no matter how clever your analogies are

the fact is that atheism and religion are both belief systems, and so is agnosticism. People cannot escape making decisions and even deciding not to decide is itself a decision. People cannot escape having beliefs either. Whether bald is or is not a hair color, it is very rare to find a human who is totally devoid of hair. People who cover their bodies with Nair, cannot escape this fact either.

[Beetwasher]

71. Do You Have A Belief About Qrtflmrs?

Just asking. What belief system would that be?

[hfojvt]

101. I am not saying that everyone must have a belief system about

Yahweh or Allah or Krishna. I am saying that atheism as a belief system is not a priori more rational than theistic belief systems. So I believe that we are talking at cross purposes.

[Beetwasher]

105. No, Because Atheism is not a "Belief System"

Any more than you're lack of belief in Qrtflmrs is a belief system.

[hfojvt]

118. okay not that organized, but you can make a taxonomy

people with a belief in Qrtflmrs and people without a belief in Qrtflmrs. One point is that if you make such a distinction, that is not the same taxonomy as dividing humanity into the "rational" and the "irrational" or the "ignorant" and the "informed" or the "intelligent" and the "stupid".

Atheism is a set of belief systems with as many different sects as theism, but atheists cannot escape having a belief system.

[Modem Butterfly]

98. Just taking an illogical argument to it's illogical conclusions...

Once you redefine the lack of something as the presence of that very thing, all bets are off. Which is to say, on.

[beam me up scottie]

25. If you've had this discussion before

why are you still asking?

[bryant69]

27. I don't recall the answer, or we didn't get to an answer

[beam me up scottie]

29. Because every person deserves the right

to define what they either believe or don't.
I don't define Christianity for you, do I?

[bryant69]

34. Well you personally may not

I can't recall ever seeing you do so. But I certainly do see plenty of non-Christians doing so.

[beam me up scottie]

51. Right.

Show me where an atheist has shit all over how you define yourself due to his inability to grasp a simple concept.
I'll wait here.

[Modem Butterfly]

36. Hey, Xianity is just another form of Atheism

Actually, there's a certain Zen type of truth to the silly-ass statement I just wrote...

[beam me up scottie]

42. Right, after all we're all born atheists,

it's what we're taught and what we choose to believe that is different.

[Modem Butterfly]

46. I was thinking of all the gods Xians don't believe in

Except, that not believing in a god is really the same thing as believing in a god. Which means we're all pantheists, which, of course, means we're all atheists.

[beam me up scottie]

62. Oh, we just believe in one less god.

I forgot about that.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. That's because it's a non-sensical question

Driving a car is just another way of walking, after all.

:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

14. Well if YOU thinks so then...

[Book Lover]

19. Think all you like

But I live free from religion (or as free as I can with God on my money and in my nation's loyalty oath). I perform no religious observations or rituals (again, other than the ones imposed on me by the law - eg, no liquor on Sundays, can't get mail on Christmas), nor do I believe that any thing is divine.

So tell me how I express an alternative religion?

[Warpy]

45. Then you would be wrong.

There is no holy writ, no liturgy, no temple, no officaldom, no congregation.

Please stop trying to define us in your terms. Try LISTENING. You may reach understanding that way, even if you don't agree.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

112. i can't begin to understand how lack of religion = alternative religion

care to explain?

if you were raised by wolves on a desert island and you had never ever had any type of religousness involved in your life, how would that lack of religion be an alternative religion?

[madmom]

13. organized religion is the root of all evil...n/t

[marmar]

20. I believe in God...

and I grew up Lutheran, but it's hard to argue with your statement. Organized religion has been the source of more bloodshed and misery than anything in the world's history.

[IrateCitizen]

23. It is? What religion was Stalin practicing then?

I don't seem to recall anything showing that his reign of terror over the Russian people was based on religion in any way, shape or form.

Religion is, like so many other things in life, a neutral force on its own. It is what mankind chooses to use that force for -- whether to accentuate its positive aspects, or to fulfill its negative urges -- that is the determinant of "evil".

Your line of thought reminds me of the neocons who look at "evil" as an externalized entity, something that can be defeated. I tend to side with Gandhi's thoughts on this one, when he said, "The true battle between good and evil takes place in men's hearts -- that is where all future wars should be fought."

[redqueen]

15. Me... at least I do when theocrats are attempting to take over the country

I live in.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Who clicks on a thread with the word "shit " in the subject

expecting some kind of discussion about religion or the lack thereof?

[Modem Butterfly]

22. Shit and religion go hand-in-hand...

At least, the bull variety does.

[beam me up scottie]

26. Yeah, and it draws

flies too.
:evilgrin:

[Justin54B20L]

18. I do, religion is itself a crutch on the development of the human race.

Its like the movie "Misery." Where the human race is embodied in the character Paul Sheldon and religion is Annie Wilkes. Religion itself has outlived any usefulness it once had, it is now the foremost impediment to the progression of our species.

If homo sapiens ever wish to continue to progress forward or even to just survive, religion must be abandoned and logic and reason must take its place. Humans must realize that just because something cannot be explained now, doesn't mean it can't be explained rationally eventually.

Unfortunately most humans refuse to think for themselves and to critically analyze their surroundings. They refuse to look for explanations to events which have logical and rational reasonings instead of making up fantastic fairy-tales to compensate for their lack of knowledge.

But, sadly, humans hate thinking for themselves and thus, until then, they will remain ignorant and primitive.

[hughee99]

40. I don't think that religion, in and of itself, is the problem...

The problem is people who use religion to push their beliefs on others. Most religions try to establish a pattern for living, if someone chooses to live by a certain creed, I don't see the problem as long as it is only used to direct their own life. It's when people say, "Here's what I believe, and I think everyone should live by this whether they like it or not" then it becomes a problem.

A friend of my is very religious (I won't name the religion, but you can probably figure it out). He doesn't drink, smoke, use caffeine, watch porn, etc. He donates a good portion of his income to charity, and is a good, honest person. When we have a party, we usually have alcohol, soda, and people smoke. He doesn't care what others do, and if you ask him if he wants a beer, he'll just say "No thank you". If you don't ask him about religion, he won't even mention it. He doesn't try to convert anyone, he doesn't consider anyone a "sinner" because of what they choose to do. He sees religion as a personal choice.

On the other hand, I have a friend who is a vegan, but not religious at all. Now I know that many vegans are not like this, but this friend is not afraid to give a dirty look to me when I'm cooking meat on the grill, and will occasionally talk to someone eating meat telling them how wrong it is. IMHO, this person has something to learn from the religious man.

[info being]

50. I agree with you.

You are truly an independent thinker.

[Justin54B20L]

66. Wherein lies the problem with religion itself.

I do see what you are saying, don't get me wrong, I understand the point in which you are making. But this forces your friend to make choices which may be illogical and unreasonable. His decisions on what affect others, say in a vote for example, are made on views that may be "morally divergent" from his "own" beliefs, thus he disregards scientific findings, logic, and reason.

That said, religion itself is inevitably the force by which intolerance spreads. It begins with a single person believing in it. Soon this person sees their belief as something that seems great for them, so why not tell others in hopes of having them feel as great as this person does?

This eventually leads to conflict. Others believe and others do not, the more that eventually come to believe the more its "word" spreads, and human nature eventually leads to forcing whats good onto others, seen as a preservation of the non-believers being, even if they do not want it.

Good intentions is the vessel in-which religion propagates its brooding ignorance and contempt for others.

[MisterP]

41. fundamentalist atheism?

not new, just weird

[Justin54B20L]

86. I think you misunderstand the word "fundamentalist"

Fundamentalist atheism is an oxymoron. Fundamentalism is a word who's very nature is religious.

But, I can see what you are trying to say. You indicate me as an extremist atheist. This maybe very well true to a certain extent. The extent of which is the disbelief that the human race could be so blatantly stupid as to adopt such a fantastical view as religion.

This, however, is the extent of my "extremism." I harbor no ill feelings toward anyone with faith, just faith itself. Sort of like, hating the war, but supporting the troops. Similar, and the best comparison I can think of right now.

I do not force my views on anyone, I do not try to "convert" people to atheism, and I do not actively try and subvert religious actions (other than those that are in opposition to our U.S. Constitution). I do think, however, that the human race will eventually come to a point where religion is tossed off like a heavy ruck sack and where reason and logic are embraced and encouraged.

If it is one thing that I have "faith" in, so to speak, it is that humans will survive and come pass over this silly little phase.

[IrateCitizen]

33. Apparently you do, Modem Butterfly...

Otherwise, you wouldn't even bother to broach this subject again. :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

39. Asking who gives a shit without any further input

Isn't the same as actually giving a shit.

Unless it's actually a different way of giving a shit.

[Bouncy Ball]

44. I don't understand your point at all.

Obviously a lot of people give a shit. If you don't, that's fine. Whatever.

[Zhade]

79. Not I, unless believers think they can create policy from their beliefs.

Then it's on.

[edhopper]

81. I am an atheist

and I admit that thinking there is no god is just as much a "belief" as you thinking there is one. I also just believe there is no Loch Ness monster, or Bigfoot. I also believe that lights in the forest are not faeries and gnomes. I also do not believe that UFOs are flying saucers from alien planets. I do not believe people can read minds or tell the future, that the Maharishi could levitate or that there is such a thing as perpetual motion. Just beliefs, like a big bearded Dad in the sky. Since I can't offer proof that these things do not exist. (of course there is no proof of their existence in the first place) It's all just equal beliefs. I also believe there were no WMDs in Iraq.

[Pockets]

92. Some people need religion....

Some people need to be reminded of how to behave in society, even if they don't realize it.

But I don't think I need religion. I've fallen into the 'too nice' category most my life.

[orleans]

94. apparently lots of people

you know, the billions, trillions, who all voted bushie into office

(psst. did you sign the letter?
pass it on. tell your friends.
here's the link)

[gaspee]

103. I don't unitl...

They start coming after me. I didn't until the religious zealots took over the damn country.

I believed in Santa longer than I believed in god. Try being an atheist in first grade. Heh!

[Moderator]

120. Locking.....

This is inflammatory and it is flamebait.



DU Moderator