Friday evening news dump: PENTAGON CONFIRMS KORAN DESECRATIONS

[Bluebear]

P.S. How does a guard's urine "splash" on a detainee and his Koran?

====

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon on Friday confirmed for the first time that a U.S. soldier deliberately kicked a Guantanamo Bay prisoner's Muslim holy book in violation of the military's rules for handling the Quran.

In other confirmed incidents, prison guards threw water balloons in a cell block, causing an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; a guard's urine splashed on a detainee and his Quran; an interrogator stepped on a Quran during an interrogation; and a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.

The findings are among the results of an investigation last month by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in Cuba, that was triggered by a Newsweek magazine report — later retracted — that a U.S. soldier had flushed one Guantanamo Bay detainee's Quran down a toilet.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050603/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/guantanamo_bay_quran_1

[NMDemDist2]

1. those basthards,,,,,,,,

:puke:

vote up the story folks!

[Bluebear]

2. And Newsweek was "lying". nt

[leftchick]

3. "a guard's urine splashed on a detainee and his Quran"??!!??

WTF??? Like he didn't fucking AIM it?? Good God! How fucking stupid do they think we, and the rest of the world are?

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[NMDemDist2]

13. i read that too.. and had very similar thoughts n/t

[aresef]

14. Very stupid.

Never underestimate the power of idiocy.

[Bluebear]

32. aresef, welcome to DU

Good to have you here.

[newyawker99]

112. Hi aresef!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bornagainhuman]

120. WELOME

[megatherium]

31. these people have been practicing the "trickle-down" theory on all of us

for many years.

[Just Me]

39. And now it's a continuous freakin' stream!!!!

EW!!! *beep* *beep beep blip beep* (classified exclamations

GRRRRR :grr:

[ashling]

118. I akways called it the "tinkle down" theory

from down here we call it the "yellow rain" theory

[Bucky]

81. It was a probably just a simple accident

You know, just like the writing a two word obscenity on the other prisoner's Quran was accidental. He probably was just mispelling the phrase "Sorry for the inconvenience", which if you scribble too fast can look like "fuck you."

[tavalon]

92. LOL

Good one!

[mcg]

106. His urine did it, not him.

Yup, his urine up and decided to leave his body, fly through the air, and splash on the detainee and his Quran.

Actually, it just so happened that the guard was taking a urine test, you know, for drugs, we wouldn't want any drugged up guards beating up detainees now, would we? Yes, he had just filled up the cup, and as he was walking past the detainee, who was reading his Quran, he accidently slipped on some spit that the detainee had surreptitiously put in the guard's path. When he slipped, the urine accidently splashed on the detainee and his Quran. So you see, it really was a devious trick by the detainee to make U.S. look bad, they hate America you know.

Yea, that's the ticket, that's our line and we're sticking to it.

[jmowreader]

110. Of course he aimed it!

They're not telling you The Rest of the Story: the guard tied the prisoner up and pissed in his face. In the process some of the urine hit the Koran.

[fishwax]

111. I thought I read that guards had pissed in the air vents

and so the urine sprayed into the cells, and that's how it "splashed" on an inmate and his quran. At least, that's what I remember reading from skimming an article yesterday afternoon ...

[Logansquare]

113. Oh, well as long as they were just urinating INTO THE AIR VENTS

Good Lord, I love how they happen to let something like that slip in when they are proving that they didn't INTENTIONALLY desecrate Korans.

[fishwax]

115. Yeah, pretty sick stuff

of course, the pentagon claims it was inadvertent, and we all know they're credible on this sort of thing :eyes:

I didn't find that explanation in the link from the OP, but here's an article that talks about a guard urinating "near" an air vent, apparently w/o adjusting his performance for the wind, which inadvertently carried his urine into the air vent:sarcasm:, where it sprayed on the prisoner.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/04/MNGCUD3O6A1.DTL

[moggie]

122. Guard was probably just very incontinent

Yeah, that'll be it.:crazy:

[whistle]

4. Alright gentlemen and ladies of the press, that concludes our...

...press conference briefing.....oh and one other item, we did in fact flush copies of the Koran down toilets...ALRIGHT, THAT'S ALL until next time. Bye :hi: :patriot: :hurts:

Those fuckers :mad: :wtf: :argh: :grr: :nuke:

[kenny blankenship]

5. Oh I see, so the American interrogator or guard

can use a Koran LIKE a toilet, (along with the prisoner who owns the Koran), but so long as the Koran wasn't placed into a toilet and then flushed, then the story is called false, the story is decried as having NO FACTUAL BASIS, and in fact Newsweek is called on by fascist agitators and the spokesmen for the fascist government to apologize and grovel in self-abasement.

I get it now. It's the meaning of what "is" is, all over again.

Well, at least the Koran wasn't flushed! Actually I feel silly for not having figured this out sooner since it's right there in the Rules of Engagement: "if it's yellow, it's mellow."

[Bluebear]

7. He didn't use it LIKE a toilet, the piss just splashed on it.

Splashed. Yeah that's it!

[proud patriot]

6. ARGH !

:grr: I sure hope the media kicks bushco ass over this .

[Warren DeMontague]

12. BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAAA!!!!

The media- our media- kicking bush's ass--- for being full of shit and a hypocrite?!?!?!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Damn, that's the funniest thing I've read all day. All WEEK, even!

..oh, except that... you're not joking. :(

[acmejack]

27. Concur...

Hurt myself, laughing! I was not sure if I understood the concept of "media" investigate? Thats not what media does, tenderfoot. But if you'd like a quick rehash of the talking points now...

[Straight Shooter]

8. It "splashed"??? What, he forgot to lift the lid or something?

If I were to say something that ridiculous, even my dog would have enough sense to throw rocks at me.

[ET Awful]

15. I just heard a blurb that (if I heard it right) the soldier pissed into an

air vent and it sprayed on the prisoner and his Quran.

[tavalon]

93. Of course!

I knew there was a reasonable explanation! :eyes:

Apparently they think we are fucking morons. Unfortunately, many are.

[Bucky]

82. Probably just forgot to point it at something besides a holy book

A simple mistake. I mean, come on! Like you've never accidently splashed urine on somebody's revered personal effects.

[ET Awful]

9. Talking about it in MSNBC right now

Barry McCaffrey (retired general) is blaming it (and other prisoner abuse) on Rumsfeld and the "civilian leadership of the Pentagon."

[kliljedahl]

11. Calling for investigation of "the civilian leadership"

Go Barry!!!


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Stinky The Clown]

28. I think MSNBC did a good job of covering this

at least so far. Of course it came out in time for the Countdown show, so that's some of it. I found it interesting that the woman sitting in for KO (Alex Something-or-other) actually sound like <gasp> a journalist.

Connected this to the alleged Newsweek lie.

Connected this to the pattern of Friday Night Dumps

Connected this the riots and the fact that this could cause **huge** 'see, we told you we were right' riots

Lots of good connecting.

If only such reporting were the norm, and not the exception.

[mrdmk]

104. The good reporting is reserved for Friday night when people are

at a wild happening party watching their favorite news program like good well behaved citizens. :party:

[SpiralHawk]

49. "This is all Bill Clinton's fault." -Bush Republican Propaganda Machine

What the hell, the Repubs should give it a shot. It has worked as an excuse for every other Republican screw up or atrocity.

[tabasco]

63. McCaffrey ?

Alright!

The famous drug warrior has the honor to tell the truth.

My confidence in general officers is somewhat rehabilitated.

I absolutely agree that Bush and Rumsfeld created a criminal command climate which directly caused these crimes to happen. McCaffrey knows how it works and he is correct.

[Clark2008]

77. McCafferty is friends with Wes Clark.

I'm gathering there are a clique of generals like these two who actually think instead of particpate in the propaganda.

[Blue_In_AK]

71. Barry was pretty incensed about this, wasn't he? n/t

[babylonsister]

10. Gen. McCaffrey just blamed Rumsfeld for 'spin control'

regarding Koran abuse. He's been pro-war, but now he's sounding a lot less sure. Well, duh!

[EFerrari]

46. McCaffrey was great. When asked who in the Pentagon civilian

leadership should be held accountable, he said he would leave it up to the press **who to hold responsible for this POLICY**.

He's all done counting bad apples. :)

[babylonsister]

16. Another thought; perhaps the wh is trying to soften the blow

before the pics and videos are released that show the true horrors being conducted in our name. :shrug:

[Psephos]

17. Seriously, this is not much of a story

Serrano made Piss Christ and it was hailed as brilliant, controversial art. Sinead O'Connor ripped a picture of the pope in half on SNL and increased her concert ticket sales by 20%.

This story is diverting attention from other, meaningful problems at Gitmo. The Koran is a book. The detainees are people. Let's focus on the people and not the book. Unless we want to ascribe the same iconic status to the Bible. I sure as hell don't.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Peace.


EDIT: changed Madonna to Sinead O'Connor (brain fart)

[Warren DeMontague]

20. It's a story because it's "falsehood" was used as part of another in a

long line of (mostly successful, I might add) attempts by this administration to keep what remains of an independent, free press in this country cowed and docile.

[abluelady]

79. Where There's Smoke, There's Fire

Rumors don't get started for no reason. When is America going to wake up to the fact that if the administration says it's false, it's true. What is America waiting for. This administration needs to go.

[ooglymoogly]

83. fineman is a bush ass-wipe

who with wolfie, tweety and the regulars destroyed the clinton presidency...all the pieces regarding fineman are just not fitting on this. fineman a bush as swipe reports a story that is sadly all too true...the white house has a hissy fit...fineman retracts story...there is a dead fish someplace smelling up the place and i can't put my finger on it.

[ET Awful]

21. To Muslims, the Quran is not just a book

It is much, much more. It is the entire essence of their being and their religion. Unlike the Christian bible which is vieweda s a book written by men about events, the Quran is viewed as the exact word of Allah, copied down verbatim.

There is a VERY big difference between the way Muslims view the Quran and the way Christians view the Bible.

I would suggest that you research this a little more and understand that although the detainees are people, in the eyes of other Muslims the world over, the desecration of the Quran is much more important than those few hundred detainees.

You have to understand the drastic cultural differences before you can say that desecration of the Quran should be ignored.

[Psephos]

26. I didn't say it should be ignored...

I said there are more important stories about Gitmo, and that this is diverting attention from them. Public attention is a finite resource, and we should use it efficiently.

I frankly think that it's time fundamentalist Muslims stop viewing the Koran, which is a book, as "the entire essence of their being and religion." That sort of fundamentalism is what keeps Shari'a in business. It prevents women from enjoying the same rights and privileges as men. It slams gays, and slams them hard. It creates permanent tension between fundamentalist Muslims and others who worship a different god (their term is "infidels") and prescribes the violence you should use on them if they don't see things your way.

I don't see much difference between the trouble we have with "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" fundies here in the US, and the trouble Muslim fundies cause elsewhere with similar attitudes about the Koran. I am not afraid to judge them by the same standard.

As always, just my opinions. :-)

Peace.


EDIT: added a missing word

[ET Awful]

29. Once again, you're not even trying to understand the culture.

Desecration of the Quran will enrage Muslims, fundamentalist or no. ALL Muslims consider the Quran to be the direct words of Allah, not merely a book.

It's very different from western religions and Christianity in particular.

Until you try to understand that difference, you'll never see why this story is important.

[Psephos]

40. "Understand" does not equal "approve"

I understand enough to know I don't care for fundie Islam. The Koran was written in the Dark Ages and it shows.

By the way, if you apply the teachings of the Koran, it is a blasphemy, possibly punishable by a fatwa, to try to "understand" someone else's religion.

You're trying to make some big distinction between Christianity/Bible and Islam/Koran. It doesn't fly. Sure there are plenty of smaller differences, but I'm talking about big similarities. Fundie Christians literally believe that the Bible contains God's words, that it was written by him through human hands. Muslims believe the Koran contains God's word. Almost all religions have their own holy writ.

We're off topic here, anyway. Someone pissed on a book whose teachings are frequently violent and anti-human rights for everyone except Muslim men. Sux that it happened, and it was plain stupid, but...whatever. I got way bigger fish to fry about what has happened in Gitmo, and I feel the lack of a sense of proportion about this is producing Gitmo fatigue outside the cloistered walls of DU.

One more thing. Our outrage seems a tad hypocritical compared to how we love to dis Christian iconography. Just gives the wingnuts ammo.

Again, just my opinions. I could be wrong. :-)

Peace.

[ET Awful]

42. I'm not the one making distinctions, I'm telling you how it is perceived

not by fundementalist Islam, but by Islam as a whole.

While you continue to focus on what you perceive to be the larger issue, the Islamic population of the planet as a whole sees it exactly the opposite of the way you do.

I'm not outraged at the treatment of the Quran, nor are most here, they (and I) am outraged by the fact that noone realizes that long-lasting and far-reaching damage that desecration of the Quran has on relationships between people of Islamic faith and western civilization as symbolized by the United States.

It doesn't matter if a Muslim is male, female, adult, child, etc. The Islamic faith teaches that the Quran is the exact and unalterable word of Allah. When the Quran is desecrated, ALL Muslims are required to defend it.

Once again, you do not understand the difference between how Muslims view the Quran, and how Christians view the Bible. For a Christian, if you destroy a Bible, they think you are evil but that's about the extent of it. For Islam, as a whole, desecration of the Quran is the same as spitting in the face of Allah himself.

Before you can understand the implications of the desecration of the Quran, you must first understand the culture, or at least try to. The mere fact that you continue to push the theory that only fundamentalist Muslims will be offended by the abuse of the Quran shows how little you understand the culture.

[Psephos]

44. You're so hung up on saying I don't understand the culture - you're RIGHT

I don't understand that culture. I don't understand how, in 2005, a billion people could swear allegiance to defend a book that prescribes violence for infidels, second class citizenship for women, and hatred for gays. I also don't see a parallel concern for understanding flowing toward our culture from theirs.

Everyone seems to have forgotten how the detainees got their Korans in the first place, too. Rather ironic that the US issued them all a Koran and a cloth sleeve to store it in, so it wouldn't be defiled by contact with an infidel's hands.

Geez, I wish they'd just open the gates and let those people go home.

Nonetheless, it's time for fundamental Islam to change. It's time to quit honor killings of sisters by brothers. Time to quit burying women up to their neck and stoning them for sleeping with someone. Time to quit tearing down 1500 year-old statues of Buddha. Time to realize that fundamentalist religion of any stripe is a cancer on world peace, especially one that says kill people who don't follow what the holy book says. Nothing multiculti about it. Islam has got to adapt to the world the way it is now, not the way it was in the seventh century.

It's time for OUR culture to change, too. I'm not saying we've got it all right, either...but at least you and I are not out stoning women because some stupid book says to. That counts for something, I guess.

These are only my opinions, offered without warranty as to usefulness. :-)

Peace.

[ET Awful]

48. You've never actually READ the Quran have you?

No, that's a ridiculous question, you obviously haven't read it, it's obvious by your statements.

You appear to be the typical person who hasn't read it, but will spout the tired old talking points about what it says instead of actually reading it.

I'd also be willing to bet you don't know any Muslims, or if you do, you've never actually discussed their faith with them.

Your grand sweeping generalizations of Muslims as people who stone women, etc. is very telling.

You should really quit spouting stereotypes.

[Psephos]

64. I read a good portion of it in comparative religions studies

My college minor. Rather interesting field of study for an atheist, don't you think?

I can tell you an awful lot about the Bible, too. The Epistles used to make me slap my forehead and wonder how anyone could've thought Paul's lunatic antisocial rantings deserved to be in a holy book. Hilarious.

But that's all beside the point. You're pretty good at making assumptions yourself. Heh. Listen, quit getting all hot and bothered. It's ok if you see things differently than I do. That's kind of the point here, right? Discussion? A little back and forth among friends?

I know someone's taking it a bit too seriously when the line of argument drifts away into the land of ad hominem. Please, don't speculate about my ugly American unfamiliarity with the Koran, and then treat your assumptions as fact. You're wrong. No harm, no foul. But if you insist on ad hominem attacks, then I won't be able to continue this thread. (I'll also infuriatingly conclude I won the argument. Chinese proverb: The man who strikes first admits that his ideas have given out. )

I did not grandly generalize Muslims as people who stone women, etc. I said Muslim FUNDIES. Go back and read my post.

Most Muslims are cool (I know, because I hang out with a bunch of them in Dearborn), just like most Christians are cool. (I hang out with some of them, too.) It's the FUNDAMENTALISTS in both camps who cause the problems.

Unfortunately, when someone (i.e., a fundie) takes the Koran literally, they can easily find justification for stoning women, killing gays in the football stadium, etc. More to the point, a smart fundie can whip up a lot of young men's anger and recruit them to go to Baghdad and blow up cafes and cars and lots of civilians just to show those bastard infidel US soldiers. These same fundie Muslim angry young men do other stuff that sucks, too. Let's just take a look at the past WEEK. June 1, over 20 people were killed by a suicide bomber in an Afghan mosque, killing a cleric who was a supporter of Afghan President Hamid Karzai. Strong evidence points to Muslim fundies. May 30, a powerful blast in a Shi'ite mosque in Pakistan killed 4 persons. Fundie Muslims did it. May 28, 22 people were killed as a bomb exploded among open-air merchants in an Indonesian market in Sulawesi. Hmm. Wonder who did that.

You see what I mean?

If not, that's ok. Diversity of opinion is a good thing in my book. Have a beer, relax, it's Friday night.

These are all my opinions, and should never be confused with facts. :-)

Peace.

EDIT: fixed two typos

[ET Awful]

74. Once again, you're missing the cultural aspect. Leave out your "fundie"

bashing, and understand that even your normal non-"fundie" Muslim views the Quran in an entirely different way than a Christian views the Bible.

You keep trying to change this into a discussion about fundamentalism. I'm trying to tell you why desecration of the Quran by US troops is a VERY big deal.

Stuff like that will inflame emotions throughout the Muslim world, fundamentalist or not.

You are trying to turn a discussion into why desecration of the Quran is an important story into a discussion of what is wrong with religion in general.

Instead of trying to go off on a rant about fundamentlists of any religion, try to understand why, from a cultural perspective, desecration of the Quran is a VERY important story.

Go talk to an average devout Muslim, not a seriously fundamentalist nutjob (who would never tell you they were a fundamentalist nutjob), but to one of the over 1 billion who are devout worshippers of Allah.

Quit trying to shift this to a discussion of how bad Islamic fundamentalism is and try to understand the cultural aspects of why Quranic desecration is a very large story indeed, despite your belief that it's not.

You have yet to even attempt to do that.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ET Awful]

94. Where have you been?

They DO get pissed off. Or did you not read the decree by over 50 clerics denouncing the bombing of mosques and other public places?

Maybe you should halt your anti-Muslim rhetoric long enough to learn some facts.

[Sparkly]

95. Which Muslims have you talked to?!

And how many have you not talked to?

[moggie]

123. So, people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan

and it's all the fault of Islam? Glad you cleared that up.

[CJCRANE]

55. There's two billion "Christians"

too.

I think you're getting confused between "culture" and "religion".

There are two billion "christians" but not every one of them knows every word of the Bible and follows every single law, most of which are very similar to the ones in the Koran and the Jewish Torah (don't forget the Bible is actually based on the Jewish Holy Books, only different translation and editing).

In the same way not every muslim is obsessed about following everything in the Koran (most muslims don't even speak arabic, which the koran is written in). It's a culture - just like most christians don't know much about the Bible and only really follow Easter and Chritstmas, most muslims are the same, they give out presents at the relevant festivals but most of them aren't religious scholars and don't particularly know that much.

[Psephos]

66. I completely agree

However, if you go back and read through my posts, I've been talking about Muslim FUNDIES. Even more pesky than the Christian fundies we have to deal with here. I suppose in Israel they have to deal with Jewish fundies. Etc.

Peace.

[CJCRANE]

72. True

n/t

[SlavesandBulldozers]

52. well the problem is these were orders

it's not just some fundie trooper doing this for kicks.

[Patchuli]

102. Thanks for that clarification!

I think the most important points are being missed here! Our "civilian leaders" as the general put it need to be held accountable for all of these terrible abuses, including damaging the Koran. Our leaders have made us look like horrible coldblooded bastards to the world and I want accountability for their war crimes on the Iraqis.

I would be upset if someone desecrated a Bible and I think Muslims deserve the same respect that I want in that regard. These people were trying to destroy the Iraqis mentally and emotionally as well as horrifically physically and it's just plain wrong. This is an illegal act of war and I'm sad to see my beloved America guilty of it. Let's see what can be done to hold those reponsible accountable.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ET Awful]

100. Your inability to understand the difference between how Christians view

the Bible and how Muslims view the Quran is much like that of so many others who completely fail to even try to comprehend other cultures.

And people wonder why others hate America.

[kenny blankenship]

30. No. The issue is that the Bush administration BAITED the press

with one of the most sensational revelations of a Pentagon report, which you now know they already knew ALL about, a revelation which actually confims/reinforces the charge that torture and abuse is happening in our Gulags; they leaked that detail out EVER SO SLIGHTLY ASKEW; they got Newsweek to rush to print with this true but slighly spun detail, which then they DENIED, hotly and officially denied; forcing Newsweek to recant the story after their source--surprise, surprise!--now coyly refuses to stand by his information to them; then going further they publicly BASH and DENOUNCE Newsweek Magazine as criminally irresponsible for having published this detail, falsely attributing riots to this story, saying Newsweek is literally guilty of negligent homicide by instigating these riots, that Newsweek has blood on its hands to answer for--arch murderers accusing NEWSWEEK!--thus giving themselves days and days of free air time to heap DENIALS onto a story that THEY KNOW ALL THE WHILE TO BE TRUE, and whipping up the fever swamps of the Fascist movement into a paroxysm of condemnations of our national press (or what's left of it anyway), verging on a nationwide imposition of government censorship.

The Bush administration is defusing and deflecting the issue of ILLEGAL TORTURE by hiding evidence of it and admissions of the proof that torture is carried out in our Gulags by creating a swirl of meta-controversies so the truth can be dribbled out in a stream of lies and they can spend the public's attention span PRETENDING that the media are the badguys, that the REPORTING of torture is what's wrong, not the FACTUALITY of torture itself. That is the issue, not the mistreatment of the Koran, or some other religious totem.

[Olney Blue]

35. Hey! you said GULAGS

Naughty boy!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

53. nice post

:)

[tabasco]

65. Ummmm, they were pissing on people, not just the book.

The European press has reported the unreleased Abu Ghraib photos show guards pissing on prisoners there as well. This is what my German girlfriend heard on German tv and I have no doubts it is true.

[Skinner]

76. Not much of a story?

Apparently you missed the whole brouhaha a few weeks back. You know, the one when the White House was browbeating Newsweek for reporting this and (with a straight face) blaming them for the fact that the United States is hated all over the world, and then the cowards at Newsweek retracted their story.

This is "not much of a story" if you believe that cowardice and timidity and ass-kissing are good for the media.

[Psephos]

101. Skinner! Here's why I think we're both right :-)

When you frame it as you did, it's a good follow-on to the Newsweek incident, and certainly valuable for keeping progressive blood (and resolve) near the boiling point. But under the terms in which I framed it - that it focuses on maltreatment of a book, when we are struggling to focus MSM attention on maltreatment of people - I think it's a weak story.

Weak, because outside of DU, many people have only a hazy understanding of what goes on in Gitmo. They're only going to give us a small slice of attention anyway, amid all the other things competing for their focus, and it seems to me we squander that little slice when we go into high dudgeon over what many will simply conclude is abuse of a book.

Meanwhile, abuse of people continues, and that message is drowned out in this who-pissed-on-the-book dust-up.

The idea that Bushco distorts, underreports, and selectively emphasizes what's happening in Gitmo is not a story to me - just a baseline fact. Others outside of the progressive movement figured out on which side of that fence they stand years ago. Book pissing isn't going to change any of those minds. Documented torture of people might.

If we're going to make a dent in Bushco, we need to use our best stuff. Public attention is not an unlimited resource. A lot of people already tune us out due to fatigue.

These are, of course, my opinions. Any resemblance to fact is up to others to decide. :-)

Peace.

[mrdmk]

107. I think you are right, the real story is that people

(I say other human beings) are being tortured in a variety of ways and some of these people are being killed in the process.

The sad facts are two fold a) The United States of America use to condemn these acts, as a matter of fact these acts were the reason to ostracize whole populations of a region with relentless poverty and starvation. b) Most of the people being tortured do not know shit! Hence, there is no reason what so ever to question them more or less to remove them from their homes to a far away land.

This whole treatment of detainees is chicken-shit from a chicken-shit administration.

[moggie]

124. It's not pissing on a book

It's pissing on the prisoners' culture and identity. Pissing on the prisoners would, to them, be less offensive. You think the way a billion people look at this is wrong, and that they should change their viewpoint to more closely match that of an enlightened country which thinks it can piss wherever it damn well likes. Good luck with that.

78. Not much of a story.

You are thinking as I am. Words on paper don't bleed. I am more concerned with the outsourcing of torture and people on both sides causing "collateral damage".

[Fire]

99. It is not the same

We aren't occupying a christian country and christians are hardly underprivledged in this country.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Too late. Hillary Duff was chased by paparrazzi, and the "librul" media

slams against Newsweek for 'lying and hurting our image' (yeah, that's the pot calling the kettle black) have already taken hold.

Chalk another one up for Minister of Propaganda Rove.

[DELUSIONAL]

19. NEWSWEEK LIED -- NEWSWEEK LIED -- PEOPLE DIED

I was on the road a couple of weeks ago -- and we had a tornado warning. I was instructed to turn on the tv to monitor tornado warnings. I DON'T watch tv -- anyway as I switch the chanels -- there was some idiot of a pundant ranting . . .

NEWSWEEK LIED . . . blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I have no idea who the jerk was -- some news reader spouting the White house talking points -- but now will we hear an apology to Newsweek???

[SpiralHawk]

37. Newsweek is going to bite BushCo in the ass for this

And well they should.

roll the presses...

[Bluebear]

68. Will they have the guts?

[RBHam]

22. Confirmed : The Pentagon Has Destroyed America's Reputation.

Sad...so sad...

[Karenina]

73. Memo to American citizens:

Please take back control of your government and military. They are running amok and making a horrible mess.

ROTW

[indepat]

23. The very idea of Newsweek making a stink about desecration of the Koran

[FreedomAngel82]

24. It's so disgusting

And people wonder why we're hated in the middle east? Well geez I wonder why.

[NJCher]

25. this is painful to read

I am so ashamed of being in a country that does this kind of thing.


Cher

[bullimiami]

33. you know they are liars and are always on the cover up

so there is more. much more.

[Chauga]

34. Shocker of the century

[bigtree]

98. I agree

extremely sad. I can't fathom how our country can repair the damage with the duplicitous liars in the White House and Pentagon dribbling this stuff out alongside their earlier denials.

[Turn CO Blue]

36. So what do you think the "two-word obsenity" was??? Huh?

The "two-word obsenity" that was written on the Qu'ran?

Hmmm. I'm so unintuitive that I just can't imagine.

It couldn't possibly be THOSE two words...that starts with "F" and ends with "you"! Could it?

[ET Awful]

50. I'd say it's more likely that one words starts with "F"

and the other word is Allah. That's just the impression I get.

[Turn CO Blue]

56. Yes, that's more likely, unfortunately. n/t

[ET Awful]

61. Yup, considering the goal of the desecration and humiliation

it's the first thing I thought of that they would do.

[oxbow]

38. In order to avoid more riots

the 30 deaths and 300 incidents of abuse need to be investigated in full. There needs to be a public apology, as with Abu Ghraib, except this time, Civilian Leadership at the Pentagon needs to also be held accountable. Only by this course can they avoid further bloodshed and inflammation of muslims around the world.

[annagull]

41. Oh man, how stupid is this administration?

first they flog Newsweek for reporting the truth, then the truth comes out--I'm sorry, these guys are not the evil gurus the press makes them out to be,, just a bunch of dumbass Jethros running the country.

[kenny blankenship]

54. But don't you think that they KNEW the contents of this report?

In advance? I feel sure that the administration would be looking at the specific findings and even the verbiage in draft versions of the report, and that they would be "reviewing" it as the investigation progresses, helpfully suggesting a few palliative changes here and there, eg: "splashed urine" on a Koran and prisoner in place of 'pissed on' a Koran and a prisoner. Is it conceivable that THIS administration and THIS Pentagon would be content to let a investigation and report about conditions and practices in their torture camps proceed independently without political monitoring and editorial molding? Not to me it isn't!

So if they KNOW the truth is coming out, as I'm sure they did, albeit the truth in a redacted and distorted form, why make such a stink about an advance leak of one of the report's more sensational and outrageous details ?
Because the upcoming report and their chance to frame the controversy about its WORST detail is an opportunity to control the story as a WHOLE. Control the key attention grabbing part and public perceptions about the rest will follow. Real crooks like these will seek to profit on what would normally be thought of as an unmitigated liability, or at least they will act like this is good for them, not bad and so minimize the damage.

The worst detail of the story "gets out" --or is deliberately seeded to the press. My money says it was seeded deliberately, but take your pick. They then get first crack at the national focus of the story; dwelling not on the fact of torture and abuse BUT INSTEAD steering the focus onto the leak and on the consequences of reporting of torture/abuse, (funny how those demonstrations popped up with signs denouncing Newsweek in ENGLISH!) Our new story is given a moral and narrative terminus BEFORE the full report even can be released: we learned from the electronic media that the use (by print media) of an anonymous insider source with sketchy information can lead to bloodshed, that it is criminally irresponsible if the information is false, and that it can indeed be treasonous behavior even if the story is true! And this key imflammatory material that all the brouhaha is about turns out to be something that the INSIDE source will conveniently backtrack on once the administration issues its STENTORIAN DENIALS, leaving poor Newsweek to twist in the wind. If you don't smell a setup here you must not have a nose!

Now the information is substantially correct, but it's off by just a couple of degrees and by a couple of shadings of semantics. Remember this is the most sensational item from the report (at least in the advance leak): one would think the source and the writer would get it right and not allow misunderstanding to occur between them. Reporters tend to use tape recordings and they tend to ask sources to repeat critical statements to be sure they heard things correctly. Look carefully at what happens to the wording of the "flushed Koran" detail: the guard used the Koran LIKE a toilet. He didn't FLUSH the Koran IN a toilet. Newsweek was induced to say "flushed in a toilet." What is the BFD difference? After all one version is not worse than the other. The difference is that the Bush thugs get to DENY the first report of the story, they are seen as "on the attack" during the crucial early time when the story and its lurid details has its greatest power to penetrate and shock public opinion. They get to pretend--and they do pretend--that the press is FABRICATING wild incendiary stories because, looking at the draft of the Pentagon report, they in the whitehouse KNOW that the report will not say "flushed in a toilet" when it is released, but rather "splashed with urine". For a fucking week of hell, they have had Newsweek Magazine wearing a hood, standing on a box with electrodes attached to its extremities. For a week they have been drawing a halo over their own heads (while raping Iraq and killing lots of our soldiers for oil) and they have been denouncing Newsweek Magazine for --get this-- a callous disregard for the value of human life and a disregard for the value of truth!

For a solid week now, they have had their base whooping and hollering, deliriously ecstatic with RAGE against "the liberal press"--and dragging a good chunk of the mushy middle into a mental state ready for the imposition of state censorship. Politically it has been a very good ride for them, considering that motivating cause of this week of press bashing is actually an unexpungable kernel of proof--which must soon be released--that they are torturing and abusing foreign nationals in lawless detention camps.

And when the full report finally emerges, half of the country will have the feeling that OK, it's not good, but look at what Newsweek did! They will be able to cling to that even though it should be clear that Newsweek is basically vindicated. (The mechanism is similar to the way a wingnut can deflect outrage over missing WMDs for example to Clinton's penis without batting an eyelash. Bush said some things about WMDs in Iraq that haven't been proved to be true; but Clinton lied about his sex life! So you can't call Bush down for lying. Mr. Wingnut gets to cling to the false words of Bush and pretend they're all true--BECAUSE Clinton had sex and was therefore imperfect. Nevermind about the total disproportion between that the two matters--regional warfare with mass murder on one hand and common adultery on the other--that these two Presidents were imperfectly truthful about) Or else they can pretend that they just didn't hear about the new twist in the story, since "everyone knows the real story was how a liberal news magazine tried to start riots in the Muslim world by making up WILD EXAGERRATIONS about American interrogation practices, alleging torture and Korans flushed down toilets and what not." The first impressions everyone got about the story from television news can be reduced to approximately this formula, and since everyone knows how lazy everyone else is, they will not feel obliged to adjust their picture of reality on this point even after contradictory information begins to seep into the mainstream media. "Oh I heard different. Well I heard everybody on tv saying how that reporter made up what he said about flushing Korans--I guess you revisionist Liberals will want us to forget we heard all that now won't you?" They got what they wanted to hear and believe FIRST, and that's usually enough to make its future quite secure. The first impression can be as fraudulent as the dogma of virgin birth, but once formed, inertia and preference tends to keep it there safe.

[Olney Blue]

59. I agree with everything you have said here tonight.

:yourock:

[mrdmk]

108. Once again Bush Jr. Administration is caught lying to the public

:hurts:

[spanone]

43. This should be on the cover of Newsweek

[faithnotgreed]

45. good idea nt

[Stephanie]

57. YES - the whole cover should just be the text of this article

Of course they won't do it, since they've been de-testicled.

[Bluebear]

69. You're absolutely right as usual

They blew it caving in.

[Stephanie]

47. How many ways do we need to prove that Bush LIES?

Every day, more proof rolls in. Like the tree that falls in the forest.

[SpiralHawk]

51. It will be interesting to see how this revelation is played

in the press, especially in Muslim nations. They are not going to let it slip by unnoticed.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. And I'm sure the Pentagon

spokesman, Rummy, will make the rounds on the Sunday propaganda shows apologizing to Newsweek for making them retract a TRUE story. :eyes:

Bastards. Every last one of them.

[AlCzervik]

60. I'm worried about what will happen in Iraq, i'm sure the reaction won't be

good, who can blame them? My worry is for many of the soldiers, the ones that joined becasue it was the only way out or the only way to pay for college.

[Turn CO Blue]

62. This is the lead story on cnn.com right now, too

[symbolman]

67. This is why we did our radio show and flushed a bible last week

Here's the thread I posted...

Symbolman flushes Bible Down Toilet online as Protest against BushCo Abuse

In the interest of fairness to the muslim world and to defuse the situation we felt that it was only fair to Flush a Bible down the toilet..

Now they can call off the Jihad and no more people have to die (nor does Newsweak need any more White House phony heat) from riots, just from Bush's Major Profit War Machine..

It's The return of our Weekly Radio Show, created for Memorial Day and our first in a year - we have a lot of fun and don't take any prisoners, we're bareknuckled liberals - have a listen, we've got all the formats you need, even an RSS feed for you Pod folks out there (simply download to Pod and go rollerblading, mow the lawn, ignore pesky ambulances, it's a free country)

Here's the link:

http://www.tbtmradio.com/geeklog/public_html/index.php

Please spread the word, Takebackthemedia.com is Flushing Bibles for YOUR Freedom of Speech (I know, when the ACLU defended the KKK who marched in Skokie, Ill, home of many jews who were internment victims I didn't understand it either - but the truth is, if THEY don't have freedom of speech, then neither do WE)

We also did this to inflame those right wing folks that are just calling it a Book when they flush the Koran.

While at the site enjoy our over 50 animations we've created to fight the Bush admin - we've put everything we have on the line to fight these bastards...

Enjoy!

[Bluebear]

70. morning shift kick

[Tesla]

75. Now the AP is saying it was "kicked"!!

Is that a new term for " being pissed on"???

[Bucky]

80. So newsweek's source was vindicated, except for the flushing incident

Gosh, now I just can't wait for all the hoopla to get going when this factual correction gets splattered all over the mainstream media. I'm positive now taht a full and isncere aploogy will be forthcomeing from teh Bush White House--both to Newsweek and to the world's Muslims.

Yes, I just can't wait for all this to happen.



</sarcasm>

[ecstatic]

84. Someone blew the whistle

There is no way that this administration would voluntarily release this information, especially after their self righteous and dishonest attacks on Newsweek.

[Don_1967]

85. When does Newsweek get a apology?

[spanone]

86. Nashville, TN. Front Page News Story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Saturday.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

88. the big deal is wh made newweeks pull a legit story

a legit story that we already knew to be true. this isnt the first tiem. and the big deal on that is he ahs the reporters and media not putting out the information to the public. he is controlling the media.

that is what the big deal is

[Sparkly]

91. You've missed several points, Singleterri.

First, how you feel about the Bible does not translate to how they *should or shouldn't* feel about the Quran.

Second, "I don't see any Muslims get too upset" -- which Muslims did you see, exactly?

Third, the government said their report would not show anything like what Newsweek reported, but then in fact it did. They claimed the detainees were lying, and that Newsweek was wrong. In fact, the government lied, and are trying to play it down via a Friday night "news dump."

Fourth, the questions remain about what's being done to these detainees counter to stated policy, and who's approved what.

[ET Awful]

96. Thanks for proving my point.

Christians do NOT view the Bible the same way as Muslims view the Quran.

To you the Bible is merely a book that contains words which are considered holy in nature. To a Muslim, the Quran is the word of Allah, and to descrate it is to desecrate Allah.

Until you understand that very significant difference, you'll never understand what is actually happening.

And, Muslims DID get upset when the mosque was attacked, that attack spurred decrees from Muslim clerics against such bombings. If you'd actually pay attention, you'd know these things. Instead, you sit there secure in your corporate media centered world where nothing beyond the anti-Muslim rantings of the Fox "News" crew penetrates your shell.

[Renew Deal]

97. You are not in detention.

It's against the law. That's a big part of it.

[captnjaq]

103. Check out what Bush signed a few hours prior to this

Bush signed legislation FRIDAY MORNING that alters the line of succession should the Secretary of Defense resign or become incapacitated. (Insert your own joke here.)

LINK: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/10807

Rummy will fall on his sword for this, the GOP can pretend that they're "cleaning house," and another hard-liner neo-con will take his place.

Donny Boy is conveniently on another continent at the moment.

Everyone take a moment to point this out to your local papers that surely were inundated with outrage against Newsweek. I am demanding an apology and retraction from every Republican who wrote in and accused them of the deaths from the rioting.

[johnaries]

105. I saw this on PBS. As far as the urine is concerned,

the report said something like a Guard had stepped outside and urinated next to an air vent, and some of the urine trickled down the air vent and a few "droplets" got on the Quran.

Does this sound plausible to anyone? :shrug:

edit: durn spellchek don' work 'less you klick on it!

[mrdmk]

109. Right, got it.

A guard was pissing on/next to a air vent so another human being had to smell his/her waste. Very fucking cute.

This just goes from bad to worst.

[Logansquare]

114. No, not plausible. More likely a guard saw a detainee sitting next to

the air vent, trying to get some fresh air while reading his Koran, and the fucker urinated in it intentionally. Just a little hazing you know, like pissing into a confessional booth.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

116. A guard's urine splashed on a detainee? Riiiiiight

The fucking animal pissed on him.

[Algorem]

117. guess Pentagon did a Saturday dump on CBS-Air Force Academy Su-

perintendant admits religious intolerance permeates school,

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?channel=eveningnews

Intolerance At USAF Academy
Play Add To Playlist E-Mail

The superintendent of the US Air Force Academy admits that religious intolerance permeates his school. Christian cadets have harassed classmates who do not share their faith. Michelle Miller reports.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

119. I didn't punch my wife

I kicked her in the head
:sarcasm:

[AceAlmighty82]

121. You know what else....

If this had happened to the bible...do you have any clue as to how fast and how hard they would get hit with...your choice of political and religious threats, sanctions of any kind, knowing bush he'd probably declare war because some guy pissed on the bible...no wait..pissed into an air vent and "splashed" onto it. Mix that all up with the hardcore religious right people and bush's cronies..it'll get messy real fast....oh by the way I mean no offense to anyone that follows the bible.

[RBHam]

125. kick for sunday night

don't let them dump this