One example of the many reasons why I hate George Galloway

[geek tragedy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/40736000/rm/_40736933_vote22_harris18_vi.ram

<snip>
John Harris: I asked him his views on what
he calls the 'Iraqi resistance'.

George Galloway: Actually, the Iraqi resistance does not target its own civilians. But the people that are being fought by the resistance in Iraq are the people that are working for the occupation.
<snip>

To put things in perspective, look at this picture:


The people doing the killing are insurgents. The people being shot are election workers.

George Galloway thinks the people doing the murdering here are heroes, akin to the French resistance in WWII, and that the murdered election workers are traitors.

Those are not the views of a progressive, or a decent human being.

[Name removed]

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[Zhade]

77. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

The person who thinks Greg Palast "just makes shit up" and uses rightwing sources to smear people like Galloway?

Thanks for the laugh, JM! You're alright. :)

[Name removed]

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[Just Me]

13. Attacking pro-humanity advocates rather than attacking pro-corporatocracy.

:shrug:

That is SOOOOO fucked up and it AIN'T PROGRESSIVE OR DECENT!!!! :grr:

[UdoKier]

3. So French patriots shouldn't've attacked French who collaborated w/nazis?

What's the distinction?

Not to say I agree with the tactic, but really, Iraqis who cooperate with the invader could most certainly be seen as traitors, and I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Vichy French were killed by French patriots.


Or do you actually think we had some business invading and looting Iraq?

[geek tragedy]

35. So, you think election workers are quisling traitors?

Does any Iraqi not shooting at Americans fit your definition of a patriot?

[UdoKier]

37. What would you think of your fellow Americans who helped set up...

... a phony Soviet election if the Soviets had invaded us?

I'm sure the Russians would have told us quite emphatically that they were liberating us. There would be photo ops of Russian soldiers giving American kids candy, and rebuilt schools.

What is the difference? You've yet to explain it to me...

[geek tragedy]

52. The elections were not Bush's idea. Bush OPPOSED the elections

at first. Sistani is the one who insisted on elections.

The elections were internationally monitored and had very good turnout, given the circumstances and the fact that the Sunnis boycotted them.

Bush's toadies, Allawi, got humiliated in those elections and bounced out of office.

[jayfish]

60. Your Right...

they were the Shias' idea. They pushed really hard and * caved. To the detriment of the Sunni, who wanted to go just a bit slower to insure proper representation. How did that turn out for the Sunni?

Jay

[DistressedAmerican]

70. Come On! You Know How Bushco. Criminals Think!

The Election Is Over! Get Over It! How many times have we heard that?

[jayfish]

111. Maybe The Sunni Need Their Own Moveon.org. -NT-

Jay

[geek tragedy]

151. The Sunni weren't after proper representation.

Because, under proper representation, they don't hold power--the Shia do.

They wanted to preserve as much power as possible. Unfortunately, the Shia--including both Sistani and al Sadr--were more willing to cut a deal with the Americans.

The end game is the power arrangement in Iraq after the occupation.

[thoughtanarchist]

4. Eris, goddess of dischord

throws her golden apple into Iraq and watches the chaos ensue.


Perhaps Galloway made an insensitive comment about the "situation" in Iraq, but it was not Galloway that threw the apple.

[neuvocat]

5. Election workers on whose payroll and for what purpose?

Did you ever, I mean ever, stop to really think about that? I doubt it.

This sure reeks of some sorry ass bullshit flamebait, especially coming from a news corporation that has vested interests in the Iraq war.

[Name removed]

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[bpilgrim]

12. these folks ALWAYS put WORDS in peoples mouths and SPIN out of context

all the others.

i love how Mr. Galloway drives them crazy EVERY-TIME he gets press :evilgrin:

ah, another opportunity to pass the word on one of bravest TRUTH TELLERS, wooHoo :bounce:

peace

[Zhade]

78. Wow, less than 100 posts and you see right through GT.

Nicely done, welcome to DU.

[BlueEyedSon]

7. What do YOU think the Iraqi resistance/insurgents think they are doing?

I bet they THINK they are doing what you just quoted from Galloway.

[mahina]

8. Prove it.

"George Galloway thinks the people doing the murdering here are heroes, akin to the French resistance in WWII, and that the murdered election workers are traitors."

Show me. You sound lost.

[stickdog]

9. And when the United States is invaded by the Chinese, how will you

view the resistance then?

I'm not saying that Galloway is the left's perfect spokesperson. However, there are two sides to every story, and he's telling one side.

[bpilgrim]

10. i think people 'HATE' Galloway because they expose our worst fears

about our current leadership.

it is truly sad the cognitive dissonance created in many peoples mind trying to keep up with the CARTOON WORLD VIEW promoted EVERYWHERE by the M$MWs.

DU is the antidote :bounce:

keep reading :hi:

peace

[alittlelark]

11. I guess the insurgents are fools that don't want Iraq to be the 51st state

....what are they thinking!:eyes: :crazy:

[cap]

20. no... they just didnt want the neocon paradise

of 500K workers laid off right after the invasion.

[aion]

27. Client-State?

A client state, not a normal state. I don't think there is any chance that these guys actually want Iraqis in the USA Senate/House.

[alittlelark]

128. uh, I was kidding....?!?!

Where are you from?

[bpilgrim]

14. he said there is NO difference between the American invaders & tortures,

who are killing and targeting Innocent civilians and WHOLE CITIES in an ILLEGAL WAR, and the NAZIS invading EUROPE :wow:

said if the Nazis occupied england during WWII everyone he knows would have been in the resistance.

TRUTH 2 POWER

peace

[KlatooBNikto]

17. But America is bringing Democracy and Freedom to the Iraqis!

[Name removed]

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[chknltl]

26. Well said, welcome to DU, (cool handle). n/t

[geek tragedy]

32. The vast majority of the terrorists/insurgents are not Iraqi patriots, but

rather Sunnis and ex-Baathists who are launching a power grab. Do you really think they'll stop killing Shiites and trade unionists if the US leaves?

Btw, welcome to DU!

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

174. Let's see what Juan Cole, voted the best leftist blog of 2004, has to say:

Regarding the US operation in Fallujah:

<snip>
A significant proportion of the absolutely horrible car bombings that have killed hundreds and thousands of innocent Iraqis, especially Shiites, were planned and executed from Fallujah. There were serious and heavily armed forces in Fallujah planning out ways of killing hundreds to prevent elections from being held in January. These are mass murderers, serial murderers. If they were fighting only to defend Fallujah, that would be one thing; even the Marines would respect them for that. They aren't, or at least, a significant proportion of them aren't. They are killing civilians elsewhere in order to throw Iraq into chaos and avoid the enfranchisement of the Kurds and Shiites.
<snip>
http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/more-on-marine-mosque-killing-iraqis.html

[Zhade]

212. Since when did "a significant proportion" become "the vast majority"?

I love Juan Cole. I dislike the way you have taken him out of context to (not really) prove a point you're trying (not well) to make (because it's pretty much wrong).

[LynnTheDem]

98. You are incorrect...and incorrect...and incorrect.

Wow what a surprise. Not.

[Bouncy Ball]

105. I wonder how they were able to do this?

OH YEAH THE ILLEGAL, IMMORAL WAR THE US LAUNCHED ON IRAQ IN MARCH OF 2003! Silly me!

Hee hee.

Gawd, Galloway must be speaking some POTENT truth, because he sure gets YOU GUYS riled up, doesn't he?

:rofl:

[bpilgrim]

122. that sounds like the same BS that comes from the neoCON press conf's

may i ask, what you base that mis-conception on?

peace

[geek tragedy]

175. Uh, reading people like Juan Cole?

http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/more-on-marine-mosque-killing-iraqis.html

<snip>
A significant proportion of the absolutely horrible car bombings that have killed hundreds and thousands of innocent Iraqis, especially Shiites, were planned and executed from Fallujah. There were serious and heavily armed forces in Fallujah planning out ways of killing hundreds to prevent elections from being held in January. These are mass murderers, serial murderers. If they were fighting only to defend Fallujah, that would be one thing; even the Marines would respect them for that. They aren't, or at least, a significant proportion of them aren't. They are killing civilians elsewhere in order to throw Iraq into chaos and avoid the enfranchisement of the Kurds and Shiites.
<snip>

[Zhade]

79. Good points, welcome to DU.

Seems like you have a clear view of things. You'll like it here.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

16. Election workers?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!!

That reminds me - hasn't democracy been blooming like a rabid rose in Iraq since those wonderful "elections"????

[KlatooBNikto]

22. Elections in which nobody knew where the polling booths were, who

the candidates were and who got elected and who counted the votes.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

23. Why do you hate America?

HUH?

WHY?

HUH? TELL ME, OR RISK BECOMING A PERSON OF INTEREST!!!!!!!!!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

24. yes democracy is flourishing

you can tell because the rebel-scum are fighting so hard against the march of freedom, that's how you know freedom is on the march because the insurgents don't want to be free and they fight hard when freedom marches this is what i saw on tv. the insurgents are fighting to get sad-dam back don't you know. they are dead-enders and sad-dam loyalists who long for the days of being not free.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

25. AND YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA???

HUH?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

41. umm. . .

I mean.. uh. Go USA and GO NASCAR DALE WE MISS YOU!!!




the size of my flag means I love me some America

[OldLeftieLawyer]

45. MUUUUUUUCH BETTER!

I trust there'll be a nice yellow ribbon on the back of your car tomorrow?

Or, if you really mean it, you'll have it surgically implanted into your forehead.

I'll be waiting for the photo.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

67. car? CAR?

this is my ride. you can tell how much I love America and the troops because I painted the flag all over my shit.






here's my bumper stickers


ahem

who's the one hating America now? I bet you drive a toyota manufactured by the America-hating Japs who are taking over our Christian country and forcing the 10 commandments out of schools and the military and retirement homes too.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

69. This is a proud moment for OldLeftieLawyer

I'm a little choked up and teary right now.

It's always such a thrill to watch someone truly understand what our great country, Amurrrrica, is all about.

I'll be having "SlavesandBulldozers" added to my flag and Barbara Bush tattoos tomorrow.

[kster]

131. WOW, THATS A BIG FLAG ON THAT TRUCK!

You should ENLIST in the MILITARY. NEVER MIND,I KNOW YOU HAVE A BAD BACK FROM RIDING IN THAT BIG PICK UP TRUCK.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

18. hate?

that's a pretty strong word. do you think George Galloway smiles and laughs every time he sees the kind of violence illustrated in that picture? You think he's just overjoyed with it as he cheers on the insurgency? Perhaps it's cause he was in cahoots with sad-dam and is a womanizing moneygrubber right?

[stanwyck]

19. Ah, the fear is pervasive

another attack the messenger thread. Imagine that. Time to get into Swiftboat mode and attack Galloway with totally unsubstantiated comments. What else do we expect from hate-radio soaked spinmeisters?
I'm pleasantly surprised to find out the Bushies are so scared. They're usually so busy fabricating they don't have time for fear. It requires a knowledge base most don't possess.
This is encouraging.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

29. i agree

it's almost as if some people don't notice or don't care that the execution of the election workers showed how LITTLE the US really cares about democracy in Iraq. if election workers are able to be executed with a handgun in the middle of the road it shows a pretty significant lack of protection. why weren't they protected? How are you supposed to hold a vote in a war-zone?

Imagine holding a vote during the LA riots. Give me a fucking break.

[geek tragedy]

33. Ironic that you are now attacking the messenger.

Galloway was right about the Iraq war. So was Pat Buchanan. They're both scum.

[stanwyck]

43. Your message

is a personal attack on Galloway without substance. On one hand, we have the Swiftboat Vets who were not with Kerry and who are paid by Texas oilmen to professionally lie. On the other, we have men who served with Kerry standing up with him on a stage at the Democratic convention. All are messengers. The difference? One group is lying and one is not.
Why is Galloway scum? Defend your thesis. With more than...he just is.

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

144. Uh, have you ever been correct in your little jihad against me?

Remember the last time, when the discussion was the FACT that there was significant corruption in the UN.

You accused me of relying on rightwing corporate media, and I flat out schooled you by noting that I was relying upon official UN investigations and disciplinary actions. You simply limped away from that conversation.

And now you're back biting my ankles.

Please, if you want an echochamber just put me on ignore.

Seriously, this is bordering on stalking.

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

164. Except that O-F-F corruption was a FACT, not a rightwing invention.

UN officials have been suspended and fired by Kofi Annan. The internal investigation has revealed corruption.

Now, you can attack me for dealing in facts instead of comforting mythology if you want, but I choose to live in a reality-based community.

[LightningFlash]

201. Investigations led by whom?

Led by no one else but the corruption responsible for it....Norm Coleman and Carl Levins. The investigation was led by them, finding U.N. members entirely "guilty" and also might I add, saying George Galloway had everything to do with it.

When this was proved entirely false, along with the Saudi member filling up the U.N with baseless allegations and investigations, Norm Coleman became a silent little boy. Tell me GT, when the lies fall, who's going to be left feeling responsible? It won't be anyone in the reality based community.....

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

170. Well, you didn't have the courage to respond.

Because you really had no answer.

[Zhade]

210. The evidence of Galloway's "corruption" was in documents held by Chalabi.

Most of the documents were from AFTER we invaded.

The U.N. found the charges did not rise to the burden of proof.

Galloway won a libel suit in Britain.

Your arguments were debunked and you were disarmed. You offered nothing I needed to answer.

You had dick. You still have dick.

[DistressedAmerican]

235. Post #66 Awaits...

Or do you really have no answer?

[Name removed]

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[DistressedAmerican]

234. Post #66 Is Waiting Or Have You Just Limped Away From The

conversation after I schooled YOU?

[KoKo]

21. WHAT? You "HATE" Galloway? Isn't that a litte OTT?

If it's because of his Israel comments, I might understand being that one can't mention Israel without a "flame war." But, I didn't really understand from your post why you HATE him. :shrug:

Frankly, my view is that we INVADED their Country on Lies trumped up by folks who backed Bush who have some vision of a New US/GB EMPIRE to rule the world and the Middle East. It goes back to the Brits and French in the Colonial Empire.

These people did better under Saddam than us if they had clean water, schools and electricity. That's how most people think about where they live. The minute we Americans don't have that we will show Bush the door.

So we invaded and are killing their people and our soldiers are suffering and dying because we AREN't wanted there.

Is that why you HATE Galloway? :eyes: I don't like Bush & Co. because they are taking away MY RIGHTS that I thought our Constitution assured us would be there, so am I a "terrorist" because I'm on DU fighting to get rid of Bush/PNAC & Co? :shrug:

[DistressedAmerican]

28. Frankly, I Love Galloway Because People Like YOU Hate Him.

Keep making excuses for our war crimes. Keep our folks over there getting killed and killing innocents.

No better yet, sign your sympathetic ass up and go to Iraq to carry a gun!

This guy pisses you off because he is a threat to the lairs and pigs running this war you seem to love so damn much!

If you think these people are pure evil, go kill them. The army hasn't met its recruiting goals in months! Go fight! They could use dedicated anti-insurgent like yourself!!!

They want their country back from foreign invaders. I want mine back from folks like you!

On Edit: Anyone not willing to fight themselves should not be defending a war THEY would not fight themselves!

That is my litmus test! What's yours?

An administration full of worthless chickenhawks has no business invading a country that posed no threat!

[understandinglife]

36. Ditto.

Emad Hajjaj, Al-Ghad Newspaper, Amman, Jordan

Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[Swamp Rat]

93. Tritto

:D

[Bouncy Ball]

106. Quadritto!

LOL!

[geek tragedy]

39. Use your brain when making ad hominem attacks.

I was opposed to the war. I hate George W. Bush and his administration of war criminals.

Your accusations, in short, are completely moronic and false.

[DistressedAmerican]

44. No, This Thread Is!

You defend the war but you are not willing to fight.

This is no response. If it is the best you can do, I feel a bit sorry for you!

If you really hated the war criminals, you would not be defending them!

[geek tragedy]

47. Read more carefully.

I am not defending Bush and his junta.

I am merely pointing out that the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. And that Iraq is a lot more complex than "US imperialist pigs vs. Iraqi freedom fighters," which seems to be the dominant view here--though it is a discredited fringe view in the Democratic party itself.

[DistressedAmerican]

50. When You Make Blanket Statements About The Diverse Groups Fighting

us and imply that they are all murderers, you are defending our continuation of this disastrous war.

This war is illegal and wrong.

The antiwar wing of the party are strong. If you do not think we are take a look at the support antiwar candidates like Dean got.

Those in the party that put Kerry in were idiots! He was a sacrificial lamb because he would not argue against the war. He offered the same alternative the administration was, MORE WAR.

You are currently doing the same.

If you truly hated this illegal war, you'd understand that this man speaks the truth to power in Washington and London.

Exactly what DO you propose we do there? That is important to get clear here. I know who's message you do not support.

What is YOUR message?

[geek tragedy]

53. I'm a Carl Levin Democrat, not a George Galloway Communist.

You can't find a single leader of the Democratic party who says anything like what Galloway says.

That's because they're patriots and don't let their hatred of Bush determine their stance on every issue.

[DistressedAmerican]

55. Again I Ask, What Do You Suggest We Do There?

What is YOUR plan? What do you think we should do about the mess?

[geek tragedy]

57. What the Iraqis want.

Do the Iraqis want us to leave tomorrow?

No doubt that a solid portion of the population do.

But there are even more that don't want that to happen right away.

[Name removed]

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[wtmusic]

107. thank you stanwyck

it's amazing how many people enjoy spouting off about 'what the Iraqis want'. Nearly always people who haven't been there, don't know anyone who's been there, and don't even read Iraqi blogs (like riverbend).

They trust their news to CNN (again people who haven't been there, don't know anyone who's been there, and don't even read Iraqi blogs).

[PittLib]

146. FYI ... PDA mentioned bringing Iraqi union (yes, union) workers to US ...

for a tour to tell their side. I just returned from DC (Take Back America conference) and attended an anti-Iraq occupation "teach-in" sponsored by PDA (Progressive Democrats of America) http://www.pdamerica.org/. Cindy Sheehan -who became an advocate after losing her son in Iraq - was there, as well as members of Code Pink (including Medea Benjamin, according to the flyer ... I arrived late) and former CIA analyst Ray McGovern. One gentleman from an anti-war union group (www.unitedforpeace.org ... I think) brought up plans to bring a small group to the states. Should be interesting.

[ROH]

63. Is that a fact?

Provide a link or evidence, please.

[DistressedAmerican]

66. That is not much of a plan. Some details Please!

And who is who? The folks we put in power want us to stay. Shocking that!

Everyone else wants us the hell out. Many, many, many are willing to kill to get us off their soil.

Your plan lacks any specificity at all. Do we keep the current troop levels? Do we increase them? Decrease them? How can they be used to ACTUALLY provide some security to the people of Iraq?

Why do studies from British medical journal, the Lancet show that the average Iraqi is 58 times more likely to die a violent death under US occupation than they were under Saddam and what do you proposewe do to reduce that number to something approaching acceptable?

I suggest the only way to make that happen is an immediate withdrawl of the troops that have created the situation. They will eventually have to work it out for themselves. They will whether we are ther or not. Why should we stay there and continue to enflame the tensions?

[DistressedAmerican]

73. Hello? Details Please!

Come on, we are waiting to see what YOUR solution is!

I assume you must have a good one since you are attacking good people who want us out...

[ROH]

80. Sounds of silence from the OP...

Maybe he is reading some findings of a survey:

------------------------------
Other telling findings of the survey were that an overwhelming majority of Iraqis, 71 percent (and that figure rises to 81 percent if the Kurdish areas in the north are excluded), now see the US-led coalition as an occupying force and not as liberators. USA Today reports that a solid majority, almost 60 percent, want the US and its allies to leave immediately, even if it means the security situation will deteriorate.
------------------------------
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0429/dailyUpdate.html

[DistressedAmerican]

88. I've Found That Folks That Attack The Antiwar Activists Are Usually

struck dumb by facts and discussions of ACTUAL details.

Somehow I suspect he missed the stats you quoted. I hope that these collective responses have educated the poster on some facts. Sounds like they are missing a large part of the picture.

Anyone that thinks that majority of Iraqis want us there and and indicates that antiwar dems are some marginal element in the party usually lack actual facts. When presented with them, the position quickly becomes indefensible.

On the other hand maybe the OP just went drinking. Hard to say for sure.

[understandinglife]

102. Let's get this thread to the top of the 'greatest page' for at least 2 ...

.... reasons - to expose the utter nonsense of the OP and the demonstrate the very high quality of responses to that nonsense.

Let's have a full discussion of how it is that certain cliques (neoconster to the core), given their wealth and power, are able to illegally occupy territory on this planet.

And, let's have a full discussion of how it's not a very big surprise that the criminals who illegally occupy territory stick together and are hell-bent to vaporize the UN and other international organizations, like Amnesty International.

Let's get to the very bottom of how disingenuously those criminals brandish 'anti-American' and 'anti-semitic' rubrics to distract and dissuade reasonable, empathetic, moral, ethical and totally non-bigoted individuals from enunciating the obvious -- you are using power and wealth to suppress, torture, ravage, and deny any form of dignity to all others who do not conform to your neocon vision of world domination.

Let's invite our Native American colleagues to lead this discussion because, of all those whom reside in the "America" of today, they are the very best qualified to discuss what it is like to experience power and wealth trampling and destroying dignity, purpose, the environment and any form of life, that isn't 'white.'

Let's get this particular OP onto the DU homepage and keep it front and center until we thoroughly debunk the bull shit of those who banter "never forget" as a very sophisticated mechanism to obliterate anyone, any race, any creed, any thought, any insight, any view, anything at all that does not espouse their neconster vision of domination of every square inch of resource, every cubic centimeter of breathable air -- EVERYTHING.

Let's have that discussion, NOW.

Peace.


Emad Hajjaj, Al-Ghad Newspaper, Amman, Jordan

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq, and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

[DistressedAmerican]

119. Ok, I'll Play! Here's A Kick And A Nomination!

Not for the content of the original post but for the bedunking!

[understandinglife]

134. "Not for the content of the original post but for the debunking!" Yes ...

... precisely.

I want all this cheap-shot 'anti-semitic,' 'anti-american,' 'anti-troop,' bull shit comprehensively documented for what it is - a sleazy, greasy coating intended to obscure a predatory, corrupt, inhuman, illegal, massive attempt to enslave, impoverish, dominate and own everything -- all the time, anywhere on the planet.

These people have no allegiance to their 'gods' or their holy documents - their allegiance is to greed, vast unrequited greed, and a desire for absolute power.

They will fail. Period.

Peace.




www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

[Name removed]

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[bpilgrim]

56. "You can't find a single leader of the Democratic party who says anything"

"You can't find a single leader of the Democratic party who says anything like what Galloway says."

you can say that again.

but for those who still buy into the CARTOON WORLD VIEW they can NEVER say such TRUTH 2 POWER.

why do you think we are in this mess?

St. Ralph :rofl:

peace

[aneerkoinos]

224. I see

You are one of those "moderate" Democrats who hate anything and everything that is Real Left, especially socialists and communists. So go on hating me. Hatefull prejudice makes one blind and does not allow for reasonable discussion.

It would also seem that you project your own hate on those you deem unpatriotic and anti-American, the hate you see in others is mirror of your own. You are right that stance on issues should not be based on hate, and it is also true that you get some knee-jerk responses that don't help to advance the discussion. But it is your own hate that makes you blind to the fact that we of the left should and do base our stances on search of truth and compassion, not hate.

[WildEyedLiberal]

92. Dean's no more anti war than any other of the major Dem candidates

Do you really think that if Dean were president now, we'd be out of Iraq? Hell no. He said himself that we need to remain in Iraq for the time being. If you want to idolize an "anti-war" Dem, lionize Kucinich. Dean made a lot of people THINK he was totally anti-war, but that doesn't make it so.

[DistressedAmerican]

125. Nonsense! I Voted Dennis. However, You do not have a single

shred of evidence that Dean was not sincere in his anti-war stance. I would like to see something other than your personal conjecture on that charge.

Dennis is great and may have been MORE anti-war (or some such nonsense). But, any claim that Dean was not sincerely against the war would pnly logically come from someone with A fat Kerry pic in their post.

Even if we had lost with an anti-war candidate, we would have made a legitimate opposition party. What the hell was Kerry? More of the same, voted for the and defended keeping the troops there.

Kerry was a disaster of epic proportions! Nominating him was the biggest party mistake in DECADES.

[WildEyedLiberal]

143. Dean supported Biden-Lugar war amendment

"If the UN in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the US should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice." - Howard Dean, Feb 20, 2003

That's anti war? :rofl: Mock my Kerry picture all you want. Kerry's lifetime positions on every issue have been more liberal than Dean's, so you can idolize Dean for morphing himself into some superliberal for the primaries all you want - it doesn't change facts.

If you want a real pacifist, support Dennis. By the way, you hate Kerry because Kerry "defended keeping the troops there"? So does Dean. :shrug:

[DistressedAmerican]

228. You Are Right. Dean Has Gone All DNC Soft Since He Got His New Job.

I was a bit pissed to hear about that.

Like I said, I voted for Dennis. I picked Dean because his anti-war position garnered a lot of popular support. Regardless where he stands now or if his position was pure politics, the point of the comment swas that Anti-war sentiment is NOT some fringe minority.

I should have left Kerry out of it. I'm not here to debate either Dean Or Kerry. That is just a distraction.

I think that we can both agree the the comment I was replying too was bull. The anti-war contingent is alive, strong, and well.

[Taxloss]

71. The OP isn't backing the war.

As far as I can see.

[wtmusic]

117. The OP hates everyone

George Bush, insurgents (aka defenders), even George Galloway. No wait--he loves the mythical Iraqis who trust the United States to deliver freedom, democracy, and Wal-Marts.

Those Iraqis are only real, like God, in the brains of the Americans who believe in their leader (like God).

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

244. I Just Find It Ironic That He Accused YOU Of Limping Away.

I schooled his ass. He offered some silly non answers in response.

I've given him all night to respond but, it appears he will no longer discuss with ME.

Yeah, he was schooled and limped away!

[wtmusic]

110. Dayum DA

:yourock:

[LuPeRcALiO]

30. Galloway is definitely one of the good guys

and the simple fact is, everything we've been told by this administration is a lie.

[DemonFighterLives]

31. Is that Galloway with the gun?

Sheesh, yeah the war is good, insurgents bad.

:puke:

[KlatooBNikto]

34. What other examples do you have in mind that makes you hate

George Galloway? Looks like you have struck out on this one.Try some more.May be you will connect on one of your tries.

[geek tragedy]

38. Besides his past as a Stalinist tankie and his close personal relationship

with people like Tariq Aziz? Or his obsequiousness to the Saddam regime, which began the instant Saddam became an enemy of the US?

How about his condemnation of Iraqi trade unionists who faced death under Saddam as "quislings" because they're not shooting at Americans?

[KlatooBNikto]

40. Any links for what you say?

I do not accept the idea that his supposed personal relationship with Tariq Aziz is an indicator of anything.Guilt by association does not cut it. Do you have specific instances of his obsequiousness to saddam Hussein? And any evidence to connect that to the instant he became an enemy of the US?

Were the trade unionists, as you call them, by any chance soldiers who were defying orders?

[geek tragedy]

49. Links:

Tariq Aziz, George Galloway, and obsequiousness:

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/04/15/galloway_exposed.php

Murdered Iraqi trade unionists:

http://uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=7458&printsafe=1

<snip>
When he was 21 years old, Hadi Salih was seized from his home in Baghdad by Saddam Hussein's secret police and summarily sentenced to death. His crime? Forming a trade union and campaigning for decent wages and basic health and safety conditions.

Amazingly, Salih survived. After five years in an Iraqi dungeon, his death sentence was commuted to permanant exile. He never gave up campaigning against Baathism and - although he opposed the recent war because of the civilian casualties it would cause - he headed home the moment Saddam was toppled.

Salih quickly became the leading figure in the Iraqi Federation of Trade Unions (IFTU), one of 12 trade union organisations formed in Iraq over the past two years. He knew that no society has needed trade unions more than Iraq does right now. Trade unions are a secular space where it doesn't matter if you are Sunni, Shia or Christian; they provide an opportunity to bridge sectarian divides and unite in a common democratic cause. Even more importantly, trade unions are the only way for Iraqis to resist the IMF programme of "shock therapy" and corporate rule being imposed undemocratically (with the support of the British and US governments) on their country.

Speaking a few months ago, Salih expressed his hope that trade unions could play the same role in regenerating Iraq that they played in post-war Japan. "The labour movement in Japan has been fighting for their country and for social justice for 50 years. If they can do it, we can too. That is why, despite everything, I am enthusiastic." He had already recruited over 300,000 members.

On Tuesday night, a masked gang broke into Salih's home in Baghdad. They bound him hand and foot and they blindfolded him. They beat and they burned his flesh. Once they had finished torturing him, they strangled him with an electric cord. As a final touch, they riddled his body with bullets.

Salih's close friend Abdullah Muhsin, the international representative of the IFTU, told me yesterday, "He was an ordinary but a very decent man. He worked in the print industry in Iraq and in exile, and the passion of his life was Iraqi workers and their desire to live as free people. And now I hear people describe his murderers as 'the resistance'. Resistance to what? To trade unions? To a decent man who loved his family and loved Iraq and wanted his country to be free? They cannot silence Salih. They cannot silence the Iraqi trade unions. Not again."

The IFTU has reported a pattern of attacks on trade union offices and trade union members. The murder of Salih bears all the hallmarks of Saddam's Mukhabarat - the Baathist KGB. Whatever you thought about the justice of the recent war in Iraq - and there were plenty of good reasons to oppose it - the only decent path now is to stand with a majority of Iraqis against the murderers of Salih and dozens of other Iraqi trade unionists.

Yet - I can't believe I'm saying this - a significant portion of the left is not standing with them. John Pilger - who says he has "seldom felt as safe in any country" as when he visited Saddam's Iraq - now openly supports the resistance on the grounds that "we can't afford to be choosy". The Stop the War Coalition passed a resolution recently saying the resistance should use "any means necessary" - which prompted Mick Rix, a decent trade unionist, to resign from the STWC on the grounds that this clearly constituted support for the murder of civilians. George Galloway has attacked the IFTU as "quislings" and described the tearful descriptions of one of their members of life under Saddam as "a party trick".
<snip>

[KlatooBNikto]

58. Is that all you can come up with,some obscure blogs from God knows where.

I asked for a reputable news link like the NYT or any mainstream reputable blogs like TPM.You come up with the dregs.I should have known better.

[geek tragedy]

59. Does The Nation work for you?

http://nation.com.pk/daily/apr-2005/19/international10.php

<snip>
British Member Parliament and an eminent anti-war leader George Galloway came under fire on Monday for calling for the release of Saddam Hussein's Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz. Labour Party rounded on Galloway when it emerged that he had told Al-Jazeera TV that Aziz was a "political prisoner".
Galloway, standing for Bethnal Green and Bow in the general election, told the Arabic station that Aziz was an "eminent diplomatic and intellectual person" being held illegally in a Baghdad prison.
His Labour opponent Oona King said: "Tariq Aziz was henchman of Saddam Hussein, implicated in some terrible crimes, including the gassing of Kurds at Halabja.
"Galloway regards him as a diplomat and an intellectual. That says everything you need to know about Galloway."
Galloway dismissed her criticism as "pathetic" and said a wide range of distinguished figures had backed calls for Aziz's release.
An Iraqi tribunal has implicated Aziz in the 1988 gas attack. Human rights group Indict has also claimed he shot people at close range.
On Al-Jazeera, Galloway backed an international petition calling for Aziz's release.
"Tariq Aziz and thousands of political prisoners are still held illegally as hostages by the occupation authorities," he said. "He is viewed with high esteem worldwide by ... international figures who have valued his counsel, met him, discussed and negotiated with him."
<snik>

[KlatooBNikto]

64. A he said, she said reference. Doesn't prove anything.

[geek tragedy]

149. You should read this post too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3782039&mesg_id=3783418

[Zhade]

87. Stories quoting a pro-war stooge like King are not proof.

You have yet to offer some evidence to back up your as-always baseless claims.

Come back when you have more than Galloway's pro-war opponent spouting Blairite party-line bullshit, or don't even bother wasting people's time.

[geek tragedy]

147. Can you read?

<snip>
On Al-Jazeera, Galloway backed an international petition calling for Aziz's release.
"Tariq Aziz and thousands of political prisoners are still held illegally as hostages by the occupation authorities," he said. "He is viewed with high esteem worldwide by ... international figures who have valued his counsel, met him, discussed and negotiated with him."
<snip>

This is not a matter of he said, she said. It's a matter of he said, Zhade can't read.

[Zhade]

169. Yep, you still got nothin'.

Keep trying, it's adorable.

[geek tragedy]

171. Uh, I'm empirically correct and you're empirically wrong.

It was The Nation, not Oona King, that stated that Galloway was trying to free Tariq Aziz. That's black and white.

Can we agree that actively campaigning on behalf of Tariq Aziz is/would be a loathsome thing to do?

[Zhade]

211. I would agree that it would be a bad thing, yes.

You still have offered no credible evidence that Galloway has done so.

[aneerkoinos]

225. It's credible enough

Galloway is loyal to his friends, which I cannot find condemnable, and innocent until proven guilty applies to Mr. Azis too. Guilt by association is allways empty charge.

"Diplomatic and intellectual" is the impression I got from seeing Mr. Azis on television. Intellectually millions of years ahead of anyone in the US admin. I remember him saying that he was in service of Iraqi people, not Saddam, and I will keep my mind open about Azis and avoid prejudice.

[Vladimir]

231. I think its pretty unfortunate myself

that the petition centres around Tariq Aziz, when the point is that its calling for the release of all political prisoners in Iraq. I think its a tactical error because whatever Galloway's loyalty to Aziz, a much more important issue than Aziz (who I have no interest in defending - if you were part of Saddam's government, then collective responsibility applies. And the same goes for the entire UK cabinet at the time of going to war in Iraq) are those other political prisoners, many of whom are probably guilty of fuck-all. That should be our focus, not how intellectual or not Aziz is, and its a shame that the way this petition is worded will detract from this. But its also a great shame how petitions like this are seen in such absolute terms - my god isn't Galloway evil for doing this etc. - but when it comes to things like the occupation of Iraq, people are making 'tough decisions' and 'doing their best'. A very great shame.

http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=10543&s2=21

[aneerkoinos]

248. Agreed

It is not politically wise and not easily justifiable, for the reasons you mentioned.

But I can't help respecting, and perhaps little admiring, a man's loyalty to his friends, especially given that there is not much chance that Aziz - or other political prisoners - are going to get a fair trial.

[DistressedAmerican]

241. I'm Pretty Sure He Was Telling The Truth When He Said They Had No WMD!!!

Yet, since that non-existant WMD is the reason the regime was (preportedly) deposed, I'm not so sure we have ANY legit grounds for holding him.

If we do, why the hell haven't we had a single trial? Oh yeah, Bushco does not give folks due process or any legal rights.

I guess what works for Jose Padilla also works for Aziz.

These guys have been treated as guilty until proven innocent. Maybe that is GT's idea of justice?

Hard to say! It sure as hell is not MINE!

[LynnTheDem]

109. And I can post over a decade's worth of UK Government official records

of Galloway speaking against Hussein.

Oona King. Now THERE'S a credible source. Gee, I believe everything she, and Tony the bLiar say!

:rofl:

[eridani]

156. Former Mukhabarat are also working for US death squads

..and the US overlords don't like unions any better than Saddam did. Pilget and Galloway are wrong to treat the resistance as some kind of unified force. You'd think they'd have learned something from what happened to the secular progressive Iranians who allied with the fundies to get rid of the Shah.

I think it's possible to endorse the idea of resisting a foreign power without pretending that you know enough about what is going on over there to pick specific sides. There are many different strands of the resistance, some of which are fine and others really creepy. I sure don't have a scorecard myself.

[DistressedAmerican]

42. See Post #28! Would You Go Fight?

Shouldn't you be there right NOW if these folks need to be stopped?

Come on! Tell me why the hell you haven't signed up to die for this glorious cause?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

51. I Bet It Isn't. I Hope Your Son And All Of The Others Get Back Safe

and sound! You are clearly a pretty good parent!

Thanks!

[understandinglife]

89. I hope your son returns ,safely. Please extend my gratitude to him for ...

... his dedication to "America" irrespective of the fact that the criminal-in-chief is just that, a criminal occupying a sovereign nation.

It's interesting how criminals that illegally occupy territory seem to support one another.

It's interesting how criminals who occupy territory illegally are also willing to avoid noticing the denial of rights to women, are more than willing to watch a school full of young women incinerate, all the while yakking about the 'value of life.'

It's interesting that those loudly eager to parrot 'never forget' are so willing to commit atrocities and suppress any access to the truth of their activities.

The day that those occupying, criminally, land any where on this planet are indicted and prosecuted, is the day we will begin to see a horizon of opportunity for peace.



Emad Hajjaj, Al-Ghad Newspaper, Amman, Jordan

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq, and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

[eridani]

135. He was against Saddam when the US supported him.

I think he even got arrested demonstrating against Thatcher when she was peddling British arms to Iraq.

[geek tragedy]

168. That is part of my point.

His concern for Saddam's abuses went out the window the instant Saddam became an enemy of the US.

He was opposed to Saddam in the 70's and 80's not out of pure humanitarian grounds, but rather because Saddam was anti-Communist and cozy with the US.

He was playing the same game that Reagan and the American rightwing was playing--condemn Saddam when he is on the other side of geopolitical struggle, and get in bed with him when he's on the 'right' side.

[eridani]

187. But how "in bed" was he?

Imperial attacks on Iraqis, both British in the 20s and American right now, have caused far, far more harm than homegrown thugs. I suspect that Galloway had that history in mind.

Someone said on another thread that Iraq went from organized crime under Saddam to disorganized crime under Bush which is much worse. He could see it coming.

[geek tragedy]

188. Oh, the invasion of Iraq has been a complete moral and consequential

disaster. He was right, whatever his motivations, for opposing the Iraq war.

As far as being in bed, well he's now leading an active campaign to have Tariq Aziz avoid trial for his role in Saddam's regime.

[eridani]

197. So, why isn't he doing the same for Saddam?

Not to mention other high-level Ba'athists?

[geek tragedy]

202. Beats me.

But, if someone after WWII had campaigned for amnesty for Martin Bormann, I wouldn't be asking "why isn't he doing the same for Goerring and Rudolph Hess."

I'd pay money to see Galloway wave that petition around in Kurdistan.

[aneerkoinos]

227. And yet,

The side Mr. Galloway has been consistently ON, is Iraqi people, Arab people, Moslem people, Russian people, British people, American people, the masses everywhere.

That's what socialism means, Sir Geek, taking the side of people and doing one's best in this world of corporate imperialism to make things little better. And Mr. Galloway has done more than most.

[Postman]

46. I think you're out to lunch.

George Galloway is on the right side of history when it comes to the Iraq War.

[applegrove]

54. The insurgency is not monolithic. There are outsiders. There are

people who kill civilians. Fact is - the people in Iraq want peace. The ones who have joined the insurgency because they are angry at how poorly a job the USA has done might be who Galloway is talking about.

But if you kill civilians with a bomb - you are monster.

[The Traveler]

61. ** heavy sigh ** I kinda understand that, but ...

It sucks. It really does. But as the grandson of an Irish revolutionary, I know what often happens to "collaborators" ... those locals who are seen as cooperating with the object of the resistance.

It happened here, during the American Revolution, too. Wars of any kind suck. But THIS kind of war, which seems to be a warmup to a general civil war, sucks particularly hard.

Who is the hero and who is the villain? It really depends ... in reality, both sides have their heroes and both sides have their villains.

For some reason, I am reminded of a Liam Neeson movie, "Michael Collins".

[vogonjiltz]

65. Galloway served a purpose.

He did hand the Senate it's ass back during his testimony. I really don't know much about him or the way he conducts himself in Britain.

But I too notice that people are quick to defend, excuse and whitewash the insurgents that our soldiers are facing in this fucked up war we got ourselves into. While I agree many if not most of the guerillas are fighting to evict us due to a genuine desire of getting rid of an occupying army, a significant and busy portion of the insurgents are assholes who will do what they want without regard to whomever they hurt. The US being wrong doesn't confer any vitue on those that oppose the US.

The chaos that is happening in that country is the main argument for not going in in the first place. We just need to leave that place and let whatever happens happen. There is nothing salvageable there and our being there won't do anything to improve things.

[Taxloss]

72. For one, I think I understand and agree with the OP.

Galloway treats the Iraqi resistance like a homogenous force fighting the occupation for a nationalist alternative. It is not; while the insurgency contains many nationalist social-democratic movements, it also contains a hell of a lot of murdering bastards.

Galloway probably knows this, yet he's happy to characterise the entire movement as being the Free French, or something, when it's a spectrum that contains the most insanely evil criminal gangs.

These remarks, incidentally, do not in any way indicate that I supported the Iraq war - I opposed and oppose it vigourously and will always do so. I have mies on the clock marching against it. So don't tell me I backed or back it, because you're dead wrong.

[bpilgrim]

84. well why don't you ask him instead of SPECULATING?

so many just go wit their gut, it's nuts.

I hope the Iraqi people kick the neoCONs out of their country, too.

These remarks, btw, do not in any way indicate that I support the terrorist or tyrants and dictators - I opposed and oppose them vigorously and will always do so. I have mies on the clock marching against them. So don't tell me I backed or back them, because you're dead wrong.

peace

[Taxloss]

86. Nice tone, bpilgrim.

I'm not asking everyone to fall in lock step behind my point of view, but you seem to take vicious exception to anyone who expresses the slightest dissent from your point of view. This is not healthy. It doesn't bother me that you think Galloway is a good guy - I think he is, in some ways - but it bothers me intensely that you consider him beyond criticism, to the extent that you feel obligated to attack anyone who criticises him, however mildly.

[bpilgrim]

101. thank you

i just call'm as i see'm

unsubstantiated attacks of lefties based on rw talking points will ALWAYS be challenged for PROOF on a lefty board.

fyi

peace

[Vladimir]

214. It is true that some nuance would be good

but in the context, I think his statement is actually fine. 75% of all attacks by 'the insurgency', and here I mean any one of its many branches, are against the coalition forces, whereas something like 4.1% are against Iraqi civilians. So the majority of the resistance are quite clearly freedom fighters. It is absolutely correct that the insurgency is not one monlithic block, but Galloway is responding in an interview where the premise is that its basically monolithic. Our own leadership is perfectly happy to group the whole insurgency with the beheaders, and there is a quite unchallenged assumption in most of the media that the insurgency are the bad guys. So for Galloway to challenge that is good in and of itself - you can always dissect phrases a million ways, but I prefer what he says to some 'I support the elections...' bollocks. I gotta tell you, I find it a lot more offensive when people want to pretend that an election held purely to legitimase the occupation, under the most ridiculous conditions, somehow represents the democratic views of Iraq - and then still happily ignore the fact that most of the parties elected ran on an "occupation out" manifesto. And underlying all this is an absolutely fundamental assumption, which you are free to disagree with, and that is of refusing to sit in judgement over those being occupied.

I appreciate what you are saying Taxloss, but sometimes you don't need an academic paper, you need a soundbyte. On balance, most the insurgents are fighting for freedom, hence on balance what Galloway said is fair enough.

[agincourt]

74. He made an observation,

which may or may not be 100% accurate. I don't think he advocated violence. There seem to be a lot of posts on him lately that says he endorses this or that. I've yet to hear him actually endorse acts of violence.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

75. i want to have his children

[JanMichael]

76. Yikes! Yet another scale!

On a reptile. Not Galloway mind you:-)

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Azathoth]

90. DUers whitewashing Galloway's faults is like Freepers whitewashing Chimpy

Yes, Galloway is stridently anti-Iraq War and yes, he had the balls to put his boot up Norm Coleman's ass on national TV. But that doesn't make him a good guy, and rushing to whitewash his faults makes us no better than the Freepers. For God's sake, the guy is a Communist who came out not too long ago and suggested that Islamic fighters and "progressives" should unite to fight Zionists and the capitalist West. A guy like that is not the person we want to embrace as our spokesman.

It's wildly ironic that some of the same DUers who shriek and wail over photos of innocent Iraqis blown up in insurgent attacks are now attempting to defend and rationalize Galloway's suggestion that the insurgency is somehow honorable and only attacks "collaborators." The Iraqi poll workers who were blown up, and the countless unemployed young men who showed up at police stations looking for work and ended up being blown to pieces, were NOT collaborators. This tendency of the far-out Left to eulogize the Iraqi insurgency, regardless of their tactics, motivations, or intentions, is only going to hurt the anti-war cause. Being against the war does not mean being for the insurgents.

[ulysses]

91. "For God's sake, the guy is a Communist"

They breed in the bathrooms, I hear. Shocked, shocked I tell you.

[Azathoth]

95. I'm taking it from his words, not mine

"If you are asking did I support the Soviet Union, yes I did. Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life." ~George Galloway

[LuPeRcALiO]

97. Q: how did the disappearance of the USSR help ordinary Soviet citizens?

A: It helped a few investors get fabulously rich and everybody else got taken to the cleaners.

[bpilgrim]

104. but that doesn't FIT the CARTOON WORLD VIEW!

folks should know better, by now, to think that they can get away with that illusion here on DU... but it is an opportunity to enlighten ;->

:hi:

peace

[LuPeRcALiO]

112. it also gave us Bosnia and Chechnya

and who knows what we have yet to hear about...

[Azathoth]

108. So we've gone from eulogizing insurgents to lamenting the fall of the USSR

Okey-dokey then...

:eyes:

[LuPeRcALiO]

114. let's not forget their nuclear arsenal

currently available in black markets everywhere.

[Azathoth]

116. Yes, their nuclear arsenal was much safer when it was mounted on ICBMs

pointed at us. :sarcasm:

[LuPeRcALiO]

118. at least we knew where they were.

now we don't.

[bpilgrim]

129. FYI: they still are

and the neoCONs fascist foreign policy is making us much less safe.

FORTUNATELY many are speaking out against our corrupt leadership, like Mr. Galloway.

It is very invigorating to see these topics being discussed again in the papers and INTERNET's over the world.

psst... pass the word :toast:

peace

[eridani]

173. Actually, it was

Their command and controls aystems were in far better shape back then. They have deteriorated very badly.

[bpilgrim]

99. As a counterbalance to our AGGRESSIVE global TERRORISM and WAR

i'd say he has an excellent POINT - if he actually said that - but that DOES NOT make him ,nor i, a communist.

only a synth thinks in absolutes

peace

[LynnTheDem]

120. And yer WRONG AGAIN. A twofer!

Galloway is not a communist, and his words you quoted don't make him a communist. Why dontcha post the entire quote in context.

What he was talking about is the loss of a stabilizing influence on America when the Soviet Union went down. The US wouldn't be trying for "global dominance at all costs" and running roughshod over the entire world if an equal and opposite power were still in place.

A BALANCING influence as it's called.

And Galloway is FAR FAR FAR from the only one who believes this; many of the world's top foreign policy experts believe exactly the same thing and in fact it's common sense.

And they're not "communists" either.

Why are so many Americans afflicted with the Either-Or Syndrome??? Sad.

[Azathoth]

123. His words speak for themselves

Listening to you people whitewash and rationalize this guy's words is like listening to Freepers whitewash Bush's idiotic ramblings. Just admit that the guy's a Communist, or at least a fairly hard-line Socialist who laments the fall of the USSR.

[bpilgrim]

126. the invariable attack on us evil DU'ers, calling us FREEPERS, again...

lame

peace

[Azathoth]

139. Not all DUers

Just the folks who are so far-out they glorify the Iraqi insurgents and lament the fall of the USSR. :)

[bpilgrim]

148. just the DU'ers on this thread, eh?

calling your fellow DU'ers freepers and putting words in your fellow DU'ers mouths is the last acts of a scoundrel.

cya

peace

[LynnTheDem]

154. ROTFL!!!

You are so going to hurt yourself if you spin & twist any further.

LOL!

[LynnTheDem]

150. Oh my GAWD! University of Virginia = COMMUNISTS!!!

"Throughout the Cold War, the United States and the U. S. S. R. helped to check the power and ambitions of one another. But with the sudden collapse of the Soviet Union and the unanticipated decline of the Japanese and German economies, the United States inherited a degree of unipolarity not seen since the high point of the Roman Empire."

-That worked out well for the Roman Empire...not.

"Triumphalists William Kristol and Robert Kagan took up the cause of American hegemony in the July-August 1996 issue of Foreign Affairs. They reminded their readers that the elimination of the U.S.S.R. had provided new opportunities for the United States to exercise a "benevolent hegemony" to promote democracy and free markets abroad."

-That's working well in Iraq & Afghanistan...not.

"For many Third World leaders, the collapse of the U.S.S.R. had created a grossly unbalanced world that left them vulnerable to American encroachments."

-Such as South Africa's Nelson Mandela. COMMUNIST BASTARD!

"...the passage of the Cold War had created an America "drunk with its own power and technological prowess." Such statements defined both the pervasiveness of U.S. unilateralism and much of the world's resulting fears and resentments."

-The world's all COMMUNIST BASTARDS!

http://www.vqronline.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/8222

[LynnTheDem]

133. Yes I guess all the top experts around the world who agree it's better

to have a counterbalance to any super-power nation = COMMUNIST!

Galloway is not a communist. That's a simple fact.

There are good reasons to lament the fall of the USSR. Are you unable to see them? WHY are you so unable to see them? Because of your very narrow, limited, black-white view?

LOVE the "you people" comment. :rofl:

[Azathoth]

140. Ah yes, now you're citing "all the top experts around the world"

:rofl:

[LynnTheDem]

153. Those who agree, yep.

Do you not know how to do online searches?

[Bouncy Ball]

162. Did you not read Lynn's post at ALL???

[Azathoth]

172. Yes, I read her post

And it says basically nothing. The idea of the Soviet Union as a counterbalance to the power of the United States is not new or profound; it's pretty much a textbook fact. However, anyone who claims that the day the Soviet Union fell was the saddest day of their life is a little bit too far off the idealogical chart for my taste, regardless of how they justify their statements. The idea of keeping the Cold War alive, and with it the very real threat of global nuclear annihilation, because you want a force to oppose certain policies of your own country that you disagree with is a philosphy I -- and I will be arrogant and say a majority of Americans -- do not subscribe to.

[LynnTheDem]

182. Because it left the USA with

Unchecked power.

And we've been throwing our weight around the world and killing a whole lot of people because of that unchecked power, and bush plans to REALLY kill a lot of people, exactly because the USA now has unchecked power.

The threat of nuclear annihilation is WORSE NOW.

HELLO! Wakey wakey!

Box of rocks.

[Behind the Aegis]

185. Question

So, it would be better if the Soviet Union still existed?

[LynnTheDem]

191. Well, the majority of the Russian people say yes.

For the world, yes.

For us, very probably.

[Behind the Aegis]

199. Thank you.

However, wouldn't it be better, if there was a less oppressive counterbalance to the US than the Soviet regime?

[LynnTheDem]

205. I can't speak for the Russian people, and the majority of them say

life was better under the Soviet Union. The polls I've read didn't ask about "less oppressive" so I don't know what the Russian people's opinion on that would be.

The oppressiveness would be theirs to bear, and whatever they wanted would be what I want for them.

I would assume they'd want a less oppressive USSR...but what if a vast majority said they wouldn't want less oppressive?

So in my "wishy-washy librul" way, I gotta go with "Whatever the vast majority of Russian people want is what I would want for them."

[Azathoth]

186. Yes, it left the US as the world's lone superpower

And, in principle, that doesn't bother me. It's our responsibility to use that power justly and fairly. We haven't done that in Iraq, and as American voters, we have to try and right the wrong. It's our job to make the United States a responsible nation, not the job of a vast Communist empire with nuclear weapons pointed at us.

The threat of nuclear annihilation is WORSE NOW.

I think President Kennedy, if he were alive today, would disagree.

[LynnTheDem]

192. I think the IAEA knows better than you or I.

So I'll go with what the experts at IAEA say. And common sense.

Coz now the rush is on around the world to get nukes to guard against the USA under bush the Crazy. And we don't have a clue who has them.

[LynnTheDem]

207. You should read some history books someday about what happens to

lone superpowers.

[aneerkoinos]

242. Tragedies

It is very obvious that fall of the Soviet empire was and still is an immence tragedy, causing suffering and premature death to whole lotta people. Yet it was necessary and unavoidable. It is equally obvious that the fall of US will be immense tragedy, causing suffering and premature death to whole lotta people. Yet is is necessary and unavoidable. History is not pretty.

[aneerkoinos]

239. "Socialist who laments the fall of the USSR"

Admitted. With context and all.

[Bouncy Ball]

161. I remember reading an article about this years ago.

Maybe 1999 or so? I wish I could remember who wrote it, but it was in a mainstream news magazine (imagine that) and the author said that, without the USSR as a "balancing power," the rest of the world would tend to react in a more negative manner to the US, since there was no one there to balance us out anymore.

Not an unusual point of view at all, actually. And it makes sense. Certainly doesn't make one a communist.

[LynnTheDem]

198. That's a widely held view and it is common sense; it's also historical.

Every empire ends up with the rest of the world gunning for it. Counterbalance is the natural order of things.

[Vladimir]

217. He is an MP for a Socialist party actually

if we want to be exact about this. But I don't think, though I could be wrong, that he is a Marxist himself. Which is a shame, in my view.

[bpilgrim]

96. people spreading RW LIES invariably call us evil DU'ers FREAKERS, weird!

why is that do you think?

i don't think you'll find a lot of support for that tactic.

also: can you show ANY proof that he is a communist, Mr. McCarthy?

tia :toast:

peace

[LynnTheDem]

115. "Islamic fighters and "progressives" should unite"...OOPS. You shoulda

looked up the article before posting, coz that is NOT what Galloway said.

[Azathoth]

121. Ah, here we go again

Mohammad Basirul Haq Sinha: “You often call for uniting Muslim and progressive forces globally. How far is it possible under current situation?”

Galloway: “Not only do I think it’s possible but I think it is vitally necessary and I think it is happening already. It is possible because the progressive movement around the world and the Muslims have the same enemies. Their enemies are the Zionist occupation, American occupation, British occupation of poor countries mainly Muslim countries. They have the same interest in opposing savage capitalist globalization which is intent upon homogenizing the entire world turning us basically into factory chickens which can be forced fed the American diet of everything from food to Coca-Cola to movies and TV culture. And whose only role in life is to consume the things produced endlessly by the multinational corporations. And the progressive organizations & movements agree on that with the Muslims.

“Otherwise we believe that we should all have to speak as Texan and eat McDonalds and be ruled by Bush and Blair. So on the very grave big issues of the day-issues of war, occupation, justice, opposition to globalization-the Muslims and the progressives are on the same side.”

Basically, he's proposing an alliance between "progressives" and Muslim revolutionaries.

[LynnTheDem]

127. WRONG! THREEFER!

"Basically" NOTHING.

He says flat out BETWEEN MUSLIMS AND PROGRESSIVES.

M.B.H.S.: You often call for uniting Muslim and progressive forces globally. How far is it possible under current situation?

George Galloway: Not only do I think it's possible but I think it is vitally necessary and I think it is happening already. It is possible because the progressive movement around the world and the Muslims have the same enemies. Their enemies are the Zionist occupation, American occupation, British occupation of poor countries mainly Muslim countries.

YOU "basically" think of all Muslims as "Islamic fighters" and "Muslim revolutionaries". YOU. Not Galloway. YOU.

GALLOWAY spoke of MUSLIMS. And PROGRESSIVES. And uniting to OPPOSE.

[Azathoth]

138. Yawn

Screaming at me on a message board dosn't change what the guy said. Put that quote before any rational, middle-of-the-road person, and see what their opinion of Galloway is afterward.

[bpilgrim]

142. lots of sane rational folks right here on DU say he's on the side of TRUTH

the a tiny minority buy into the rw talking points, shame.

peace

[Azathoth]

145. You're eulogizing insurgents and lamenting the fall of the USSR

And you say I'M in the tiny minority??

:rofl:

[bpilgrim]

155. lol

now it's me and Mr. Galloway :eyes:

let me guess what your reply will be... 'your logic sounds just like a FREAKER'

cya

peace

[LynnTheDem]

159. You bet you're in the minority.

You really are incapable of seeing any downsides to the collapse of the USSR.

Wow.

[LynnTheDem]

157. Depends; in context and if they have any brain, and if they're not a

rightwingnut, they'll take it as most the world takes it; the USSR was a counterbalance to the USA and vice versa, and without that counterbalance, as Galloway continues to say in the quote, leaves the US rampaging around the world.

If they're just plain stupid, then they won't understand.

[Azathoth]

163. Ah, well, you've got it all figured out then

Those who don't see things through the lens of your fairly extreme political idealogy are "stupid". I guess that clears things up. :eyes:

Seeing as how my post has now degenerated into a lament for the fall of the Soviet Union, I think I will me moving on.

[Bouncy Ball]

167. I wonder who caused it to turn into a subthread all about the USSR?

Hmmm?

What about her political idealogy is "fairly extreme?"

You can't seem to see that saying that removing the USSR as a balancing influence on the US was a bad thing is NOT the same thing as saying "Go Commies! YAY!" LOL!

Ever step outside of YOUR idealogy once and a while and just look at some facts?

Here you go--I'm going to say it, because I agree:

The fall of the USSR meant that, among other things, there was no longer a "balance of power" in the world and this has caused other countries to look at the US more warily.

Now. Am I a Communist?

:rofl:

[Azathoth]

179. That's a good question

perhaps you should read through the subthread and see who began lamenting the fall of the Soviet Union.

The fall of the USSR meant that, among other things, there was no longer a "balance of power" in the world and this has caused other countries to look at the US more warily

Once again, you're whitewashing what Galloway said. He called the fall of the Soviet Union "the worst day of his life". That's a fairly unambiguous endorsement.

[LynnTheDem]

177. It's pretty simple;

The collapse of the USSR left only America as the world's sole super-power.

Meaning NO COUNTERBALANCE.

Exactly the same situ if the entire US government were all Republicans. No Democrats, no Indies.

Meaning NO COUNTERBALANCE.

Unchecked power.

Now really, anyone who can't understand that, which is exactly what Galloway was saying, is in fact stupid.

[Azathoth]

183. Galloway said a little bit more than that

He said the fall of the USSR was the worst day of his life. He clearly preferred the Cold War and the threat of nuclear war to the world in which we now live. I disagree, as would I suspect a vast majority of Americans.

[LynnTheDem]

189. People with narrow rigid minds that are incapable of seeing the

wider view never will understand.

People with agendas will refuse to understand.

[Azathoth]

190. "People with agendas will refuse to understand."

My thoughts exactly.

And I hate to say it, but a view so wide that it wishes the Soviet Union were still around is a view just a little too wide for me.

[LynnTheDem]

193. And I don't hate to say it, but a view so narrow it can't see any

down side to the collapse of the USSR is far too narrow for me.

:)

[Azathoth]

195. Then we agree

Since, by your own admission, you think the world would be better off today with the Soviet Union still around, that's not a huge surprise.

I'll leave it to others to decide the merits of our respective arguments. ;)

[LynnTheDem]

200. Yep we agree;

you're narrow-minded; I am not.

:)

[eridani]

178. That was also true of Iran in 1979

Secular progressives united with fundies to overthrow the Shah, and promptly got screwed afterward by the same fundies.

If we are going to make that kind of tactical alliance, best to figure out how now to get screwed similarly in advance.

[LynnTheDem]

184. As in if we win out against the rightwingnuts, the Muslims would want to

run the US gov?

I don't think so; the more people in the world who join us progressives against the rightwignnuts, the better for us, the better for the world, imo.

BTW just to be clear, we are talking non-physical joining forces and winning against the rightwingnuttery, as Galloway is, right? You're not talking about us & Muslims or anyone else physically tossing out the rightwingnuts, as in the removal by violance of the Shah?

[eridani]

196. Religious nuttiness anywhere in the world is bad for progressives, IMO

If you mean allying with lefty Muslims (and lefty Christians, for that matter) that's a whole different ballgame.

[LynnTheDem]

206. Galloway was talking about Muslims.

Not radicals or fanatics.

Religious nuttiness anywhere in the world is bad for us and for the world.

[Vladimir]

223. But no one is uniting with fundamentalists!

for pete's sake, Galloway was threatened with death for urging Muslims to vote in BG&B by some of these fundamentalist groups. How do we get from there to making an alliance with fundamentalists?

[aneerkoinos]

246. Question:

How would you characterize a person who equalizes all Christians with fundies?






And having answered that, how would you characterize a person who equalizes all Muslims with fundies?

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

94. The US wrote a manual on imperialst occupation -- use the locals was

a big tool they used in the Phil-Am and Span-Am wars.

The Iraqis read the manual.

Collaborators may not be American, but according to the manual of imperialism, they're not citizens either.

[Skip Intro]

100. Sorry, that's just bullshit

what you're saying is bullshit, - - false

nothing personal

first, that scary word insurgent only really means resistance, if an active resistance. I wonder how many people in the US know the word, but not the meaning. It sounds so sinister.

Galloway states a fact that people in Iraq against the installed government are attacking and/or being attacked by people in Iraq that run/facilitate that government. That's a pretty reasonable assumption, at the very least. He's not calling murderers heroes, as you falsely state. He's not praising anyone. He's just stating his view of the situation, which I tend to believe.

You post his quote, misrepresent it , with the help of a visual aid, and then draw a false conclusion.

In another word, bullshit.

Nothing personal.

;)

[Bouncy Ball]

103. Not this shit again.

Oh dear, and to think, I just mailed off that mushy love letter to Galloway today! Whatever shall I do?

Oh my!

:eyes:

[K8-EEE]

130. I Loved What He Said To The Senators..WE Need To Say That...

over and over...what he said is never said here and it's THE TRUTH!

re: the insurgents, I am constantly being battered by RWers because I have said since the beginning, we will lose. Do I want us to lose? Of course not, I don't want us there AT ALL! But the fact is NO OCCUPYING ARMY HAS EVER BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN A GUERILLA WAR!

Nobody knows more than the UK -- they ended up having to deal with the IRA, they had a huge advantage language/culture wise compared to our poor guys and yet, for occupiers, they will shoot you as long as you are there, end of story. DUH! So GWB strategy is to stay until they stop shooting? That is like saying, stay forever.

[Bouncy Ball]

132. It wasn't hard to see that bush et al were putting our troops in a

lose-lose situation. All you are doing is telling the truth. As I have been, as many of us have been, all this time.

[eridani]

180. Actually, they have

European colonists vs the natives of North America. Problem is that success = genocide.

[redacted]

113. A friend of mine who is Scot expat loathes him...so much it's hard for him

to explain why. and he's a pretty bright fella albeit alittle too libertarian for me.

[bpilgrim]

136. the programmings irrationality comes out of the individuals exposed to it

when pressed for details... they don't have any just the HATE emotion is about the best they can come up with and it's sad.

you see it all the time here with the ditto-heads.

peace

[Behind the Aegis]

124. I don't care for him either.

I am glad he is giving Shrub and Blair Hell, but I still don't care for some of his statements and politics.

[bpilgrim]

137. a popular emotion for Galloway haters

can't quite put their finger on ANY misdeeds or statements but their goin wit der gut, anyways :eyes:

peace

[Behind the Aegis]

141. I know why I don't like him.

But thanks for the "pop analysis."

On edit: where did I say I "hated" him? I don't care for him...big difference.

[bpilgrim]

158. you were agreeing with the OP in a 'why i HATE Galloway' thread...

and you didn't include ANY context to back up why you 'don't care for him', but not to worry, lot's of folks who 'don't care for him' are just goin wit der gut, too.

:hi:

peace

[Behind the Aegis]

165. Never agreed, stated my OWN opinion

I said "I don't care for him" and I didn't care for some his political beliefs. I never said I "hated" him. I didn't include any context for a specific reason, yet, because I chose not to do that it means I am "goin' wit my gut?"

I find it interesting that dissenting opinions here are sometimes attacked flat out with snide remarks and derision. If one does not fall "lock-n-step" with an opinion, then they must be a "freeper" or "spewing RW talking points." I don't think that just because someone doesn't think the way I do, they must be a freeper; they just have a different opinion, which is sometimes wrong and, sometimes, just different.

[bpilgrim]

176. "I don't care for him EITHER." in agreement with an I HATE GALLOWAY thread

you don't post ANY context to back up your feelings(gut) when dissing a lefty and you find it surprising/interesting that your getting push back, please.

FYI: us supporters of Galloway have been called FREAKERS not the other-way round - also, pointing out rw talking points ain't the same thing, EITHER.

cya

peace

[Behind the Aegis]

181. Either

I was just re-reading my post and I thought...""either" could be seen as agreement to hating this man." However, I do not hate him, I don't care for his politics and some of his statements. I didn't post my feelings for a particular reason. As far as disagreement or "pushing back", I am cool with that, but it is the snideness that is unbecoming. I never used any RW talking points, so that that point is moot.

[kster]

160. AND THIS IS WHY

our kids (military) need your help, please help them

https://secure.military.com/leads/Recruiting/RecruitingLeadForm1.jsp?ESRC=cbov_join2.kw&GCID=S15121x001&KEYWORD=enlist

[katinmn]

218. Whenever I see that site I am reminded of hotmilitarystud.com

thanks to Gannon/Gukert.

LOL. I keep waiting for the porn to pop up.
:rofl:

[LightningFlash]

194. Complicated issue.

While there certainly is alot of good being done by the Iraq mercenaries in quelling dissent, this is certainly not at all the purpose of this excercise.

The purpose here is basically the mercenary groups and Iraqi police are gladly facilitating clean sweep control for the occupiers in Iraq who profit off of oil barrels and also some under-reported drug trafficking. In addition to this, is the support for new religious recreationism in Iraq making it spittingly into an image of christ.

In the midst of all this floundering, there are some genuine people working for the occupiers who are similar to activist groups but at the same time they are doing nothing to prevent it. And with each passing day, of course this really hit me when I understood it, the insurgency grows worse as the Iraq people tire more and more of its corrupt United States occupiers.

In effect the civil war is not by mistake, it has to do with power and control of Iraq's economy.

[noiretextatique]

204. funny...this hatred for galloway

what is it about the truth that threatens americans so much? america inserted itself in a country without the consent of its citizens and now wants to cry foul because those citizens are fighting back by any means necessary. typical american arrogance and self-serving righteousness....after the fact of the illegal war started because of complete and total lies. :nopity:
so...you focus your "hatred" on someone who is opposed to the war vs. the people who created the entire mess...that would be bush, inc and its enablers. get the fuck outta here with this nonsense.

[geek tragedy]

208. Spare me the cheap anti-American rhetoric

Racist claptrap like that is usually a signal of a weak intellect . . .

Anyways, Galloway is taking sides in Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence. He is on the side of those doing the killing, and labels those who aren't violent as Quislings.

And I say that people who murder election workers and people trying to vote are despicable terrorists, and that those who support those terrorists are reactionary assholes every bit as bad as the assholes who started this war.

[Azathoth]

209. Ouch

And I say that people who murder election workers and people trying to vote are despicable terrorists, and that those who support those terrorists are reactionary assholes every bit as bad as the assholes who started this war.

Here Friend, take my flak jacket. The return salvo is not going to be pretty. :hide:

[noiretextatique]

213. racist? since when is "american" a race?

what's anti-american is putting americans in harm's way to enrich halliburton, kbr, and bechtel, while killing thousands of INNOCENT PEOPLE and CREATING the civil war that's killing more innocent people.. unfortunately, in typical, arrogant american fashion, you forget about CAUSE and focus on the EFFECT of the AMERICAN ARROGANCE that CREATED the problem you whine about, in typical clueless, arrogant american fashion. again...get the fuck outta her with this nonsense.
what's RACIST is believing brown people want your brand of "freedom and democracy" and LYING about your justification for invading a country whose citizenry never wanted you there in the first place. what's racist is the ARROGANT belief that invading a country full of brown people, killing them, and rewarding your friends with lucrative contracts to rebuild what you destroyed will somehow make the people who survived your illegal invasion of that country grateful to you. well...i guess we are seeing that they aren't feeling the expected gratitude that the shareholders of halliburton, kbr and bechtel do, and that even some who claim to be against the war still EXPECT.
in typical arrogant american fashion, you expect to dictate the terms under which the violated respond to american violation...typical, arrogant americanism, like the kind your nemesis mr. galloway despises.
damn right i'm anti-american...anti-arrogant american.

[0007]

215. Then you hate me?

George Gallowaly taked against going to war in Iraq. Are you serious with your made up version to excuse junior and his war criminals?

[mogster]

216. Just a question

> George Galloway thinks the people doing the murdering here are heroes, akin to the French resistance in WWII

The use of the word insurgents are interesting.
If someone attacked your country for no reason, wouldn't you fight them - and your countrymen supporting them?

I come from a country that was invaded during WWII, and this is exactly what happened; Norwegians who supported the Nazi's was attacked and killed by their own. Sabotaged. Sniped. Blown up. Kidnapped and executed.
We called them Quislings, after their leader Vidkun Quisling - a traitor that was jailed and executed when the war was over and we were FREE again. His name turned into a fucking TERM for traitor.
Then came the trials agaist the people supporting Quisling and his folks.

Can you please state what differs these people from a 'French resistance'? Is it their level of violence?

Bush and the neocons brought the war to Iraq, not George Galloway.
Why then are you using these vile pics to attack him, instead of Bush? It makes me wonder...

[Vladimir]

219. The same happened in my country, mogster,

and I suspect throughout occupied Europe - there was usually no mercy shown to collaborationists. After WWII in Yugoslavia, those found to have collaborated were dealt with pretty summarily, and one doubts many here would shed tears over this. The problem for people is that following this logic requires us to appreciate that today, *we* are the invaders, and *we* are the bad guys. I think that is ultimately why so many people can't bring themselves to feel a solidarity for the Iraqi insurgents - which is a great shame.

[mogster]

220. How interesting to get some more views on that

Occupation is really the axe of fascism, isn't it? The ultimate 'either you're for us or against us'?
No middle ground to stand on.

This is what's so great about this place; there's people from everywhere here, to provide enlightenment :toast:

[Vladimir]

221. Well exactly

and you've identified the crucial point, which is that the middle ground is no ground at all. If you want to say: "Well of course I opposed this war, but I oppose the insurgency too - what I really support are the elections" then you are creating a false moral equivalence. Yes of course there are deeply reactionary elements within the insurgency. But we created them - our war, our decades of opressing the region through proxy dictators. And then we want to equate all those Iraqis fighting a war of national liberation with these elements - its just not fair by any stretch of the imagination. And that is why I think Galloway's statement is quite fair enough.

A hearty toast to you too! :toast:

[CJCRANE]

230. Also

the problem with the pro-elections argument is that there literally was no post-war plan. They made it up as they went along and the only things that they seemed to concentrate on were protecting the oil ministry, privatizing everything, and constructing military bases.

If it really was about bringing democracy they would have brought the UN in on day one after the war was over like they did in Afghanistan (altho that little experiment was left to fail as all the resources were diverted to Iraq).

[noiretextatique]

222. some americans have a difficult time believing that

"we" are the bad guys, even some who are against the war. there is a cherished belief embedded in the american psyche, one that truly defies logic, history and current reality, that stubbornly insists that america is always right, even when it is wrong. and certainly that americans are entitled to judge the actions of everyone everywhere from a position of moral and cultural superiority. i met people who voted for bush, inc fully well knowing the justification used for this war was a lie. it truly boogles the mind.

[freedomburn]

233. George Galloway is a hero to so many Americans too.

This guy is the most clear-thinking, truth-telling ray of sunshine that has come onto the American media radar in a long, long time. We need more men like him. Many more.

I am on the Iraqi's side here. I have lived in the US my whole life, in the Bay Area for the last thirty years, and I have already marched and protested this war a half-dozen times. Even when we do riot on the streets and take over the downtown, Murder Inc. in Washington just laughs at us and hires more stormtroopers to beat us down. We need to get the hell our of Iraq right now and give those people back their country.

[Vladimir]

236. Indeed indeed

Welcome to DU! :hi: :toast:

[DistressedAmerican]

237. Oh Greek Tragedy, Why Have You Limped Away From The Conversation?

Posts 66, 73, 80, and 232 are still awaiting YOUR plan for Iraq!

Where is it?

Give us some detailed thinking or take your poorly documented smearfest out to the back yard and shoot it.

[JNelson6563]

240. Mission accomplished!

Look at this thread. DUers really going at it. What more could you want?

Rove's work is done here.

[DistressedAmerican]

243. I'll Agree It Was A Fine Incursion. Just Wish He Had Some Facts

or some plans or a single thing productive or constructive to offer.

When pressed for details he just ran from me. Like Bush says, "He can run but he can't hide." The posts are there for everyone to evaluate.

I hate when folks come with baseless smears and then refuse to talk to you when you debunk them and show their position to be pointless spin.

Especially when they are flaming others for "limping away" after he supposedly "schooled" them.

So Greek Tragedy, feeling schooled? Or are you still just bent on your "hatred"?

[Name removed]

245. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

247. Not Just Ultimately. I'm Still Quite Sure It Was US That Killed Nick Berg

to deflect the attention away from the Abu Ghraib abuse. I wonder what they will do to distract the masses when 100 more photos and several videos are released later this month (GO ACLU!!!!)?

At the very minimum their bogus two week military detention made him miss his flight out and led to his death...

[bunny planet]

250. It is true, that since Gorgeous George's lively smackdown we all

admired so much, more information has come to light about him, some of it highly unflattering. I don't think that the personality or flaws of GG is really the point though. It's about someone finally having a set to confront the passive-aggressive or outright lying SOB's who are our sorry excuses for elected officials on their own home turf. Smackdown UK style. I felt just as thrilled when I watch a BBC broadcast of one of Blair's town hall meetings with the British citizens the week before their recent elections. The audience members asked him really tough questions, called him a liar, in general left him a puddle of sweating decrepitude when they got finished having at him. It was a beautiful thing, and it is par for the course in that country. The reason George Galloway captured our hearts and minds, those of us who saw him speak, is not because he's perfect, far from it. it's because we never get to see that much honesty in our media, that much level of confrontation put towards our elected officials. It's as if once we elect them, they are on Mt. Olympus and none of us mortals can dare to approach them, least of all call them to account or hold them responsible. With this Crime family in power, it is all the more frustrating to see press members throw softball questions in the face of such endless, criminal, hypocrisy and lies. That is why Gorgeous George captivated us so strongly. His policies and ideas might be problematic as well, but you can be sure he'll be called on them in public as well, back in the UK. For us here, he was a tonic, and a glimpse at the democracy in action we might have if only our own government had the nuts to ask questions and take names. Have you ever watched Parliament in action, when someone speaks that they disagree with , they call him a liar straight to his face and shout for the truth. Simply spot on. Guess so far, their Magna Carta is holding up a bit better than our Constitution.

[Moderator]

251. Locking....

This has become inflammatory and many
PAs had to be removed.



DU Moderator