"China: The Gathering Threat" - How will we deal with it?

[bpilgrim]

saw an interesting panel discussion the other day on c-span books regarding this book...

China: The Gathering Threat"

by Constantine C. Menges

Amazon comments


In a book that is as certain to be as controversial as it is meticulously researched, a former special assistant to the president for National Security Affairs and senior official of the Central Intelligence Agency shows that the U.S. could be headed toward a nuclear face-off with communist China within four years. And it definitively reveals how China is steadily pursuing a stealthy, systematic strategy to attain geopolitical and economic dominance first in Asia and Eurasia, then possibly globally, within the next twenty. Using recently declassified documents, statements by Russian and Chinese leaders largely overlooked in the Western media, and groundbreaking analysis and investigative work, Menges explains China's plan thoroughly, exposing:

* China's methods of economic control.
* China's secret alliance with Russia and other anti-America nations, including North Korea.
* China's growing military and nuclear power-over 90 ICBMs, many of them aimed at U.S. cities.
* How China and Russia have been responsible for weaponizing terrorists bent on harming the U.S.
* Damage caused by China's trade tactics (since 1990, we've lost 8 million jobs thanks to China trade surpluses).

now i haven't read this book but the theme of the discussion hit on many of the topics we picked up on DU's 'RADAR' and discussed, most importantly their expanded GLOBAL footprint of economic and military interest, a lot of it unprecedented in modern history (since WWII) and essentially noted that this IS a very worrisome situation for the U.S. and pondered on what the solution to this situation was and what measures should be taken to get there.

apparently, this author felt, as well as the panel guests, that the ultimate goal, to deal with the 'threat'(china) was to turn her into a 'democracy' (always the answer to our prayers) from within and via cooperation (that included carrots+sticks).

of course, all the usual 'red-flags' went up for me, but they seemed to be pushing the 'velvet-glove' approach, via their whole co-operation and 'from within' vs what the rabid-con's approach. their approach was more neo-'liberal' vs neoCON.

well, i listened to their 3 speakers, endorsing and elaborating on this book, and it's author - some via first hand accounts - and wondered to myself, "well, even if this IDEAL, of democratizing china from within and via cooperation, could be achieved... how would that reduce their GROWING consumption of natural resources, which all healthy democracies seem to CRAVE for their very SURVIVAL and at the same time, lesson the 'THREAT'"?

thats the bottom line in my mind that i don't see any REAL discussion of it in by the M$MW, only on-line. (Thank Gore HE 'invented' the INTERNETs)

so... anyone got an opinion on this issue or has read the book and would like to comment i would love to learn more about this serious issue facing not only the U.S. but the WORLD, today.

tia :hi:

peace

[norml]

1. Buy shares in CHINA?

http://www.cdccorporation.net/

[xray s]

2. Ah...

I think the reason the Bush clan has us ass deep in military occupation in the Mideast and Asia is to control oil. And the reason they want to control oil is they know China is going to need an ocean of it as they turn into mass consuming drones like the rest of us. Of course, there is an alternative path for China. One where China takes the lead in developing alternative renewable low impact energy sources to fuel their energy needs. A wise world community would see the need for that and seize this moment in history to end the tyranny of oil and the demons that control it. But that wouldn't put any nickels in Poppy's pocket, would it?

[bpilgrim]

4. do you think "China takes the lead in developing alternative" energy?

what about japan?

is it too late, though, considering how much oil we all currently consume, plus it's continuing growth month after month?

i worry that it is, especially as you point out we already made our move on the grand chess board.

also what do you think about the 'experts' solution of democracy in china? is that a real solution to the underlying problem, consumption?

:hi:

peace

[evlbstrd]

3. The key word is "threat."

Eisenhower warned us about the Millitary-Industrial Complex. They always need an enemy to justify their existence.

[bpilgrim]

6. i hear ya, but the competition they pose in energy consumption is REAL

what do you think about their solution and your own?

:hi:

peace

[norml]

5. Web Results 1 - 10 of about 557 for bric "brazil russia india china".

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 557 for bric "brazil russia india china". (0.06 seconds)

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www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-04f-05.asp - 16k - Jun 4, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages


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Putin Leads BRIC Alliance Of Brazil, Russia, India, ChinaPutin Leads BRIC Alliance Of Brazil, Russia, India, China By Sudhir Chadda Special Correspondent - India Daily 1-4-5. Russian President Putin has ...
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Mario Profaca: Americas and Caribbean: BRIC AllianceBRIC Alliance Brazil - Russia - India - China ... In the long run, the BRIC nations (Brazil, Russia, China and India) will form a block and deal with Europe ...
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[bpilgrim]

7. that was discussed, especially the RUSSIA/CHINA strategic partnership...

of course this is RARELY discussed in the M$M and when it is a sound-byte stereo-type but fortunately we got the web as you noted ;->

do you have an opinion on the book or the establishment's view - neo-lib or con - for a solution or even better your own solution?

:hi:

peace

[norml]

10. Renowned Strategist Warns of Dire Threat from China

Renowned Strategist Warns of Dire Threat from China
William R. Hawkins
Friday, May 27, 2005

The new book China: The Gathering Threat by the late Constantine Menges deserves to become a best seller. Menges first presents a well documented history of the last half-century of U.S.-China relations, showing how Beijing has expanded its ambitions as its economy has grown, until it now plans to dominate not just Asia, but events globally.

Dr. Menges then turns his attention to the situation in Russia, where out of national weakness and anger over the collapse of the Soviet Union, President Vladimir Putin has aligned with Beijing, even though China poses a major threat to Russian interests in both Central Asia and the Far East. Finally, Menges proposes a comprehensive strategy to contain China until internal democratic forces can change the regime into one that can be trusted.

Constantine Menges devoted his entire life to the service of the United States. His untimely death in 2004 left a void among that small cadre of strategic thinkers who are also experienced activists on the world stage. Menges was born September 1, 1939, the day Germany invaded Poland to start World War II in Europe. He was born in Turkey, to which his parents had fled because of their outspoken opposition to Adolf Hitler, and came to America at age four. Menges would spend his career fighting against the spread of tyranny.

As a student in Prague when the Berlin Wall was being built, he smuggled refugees out of East Germany. Menges earned his doctorate from Columbia University, then went to the Rand Corporation where he wrote papers that anticipated the Reagan Doctrine, which brought down the Soviet Empire. He argued that “communist regimes are very vulnerable to a democratic national revolution that is conducted with skill and determination.” He served the Nixon and Ford administrations in the field of civil rights, having worked for voting rights in Mississippi and marched with Martin Luther King, Jr.




snip




http://www.americaneconomicalert.org/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=1953

[bpilgrim]

12. thanks for the article about the book...

but i am interested in discussing it's solution and implementation as well as our (DU) reaction to it.

:hi:

peace

[norml]

13. Well bpilgrim, I think it's nuts!

"a comprehensive strategy to contain China until internal democratic forces can change the regime into one that can be trusted"?

Ha! Just more PNAC nonsense! While we pay the price of keeping "democracy on the march" a new world economic order is falling into place. BRIC contains the majority of the world's population. "change the regime into one that can be trusted"? Trusted to do what, bow to our debtor nation minority status, our superior moral authority? That's what I think of that.

[bpilgrim]

14. i see, do you have an opinion on the solution?

like i said i didn't think it would achieve it's goals even if somehow we managed to get our wish of a democracy in china since the crux of the problem is growing resource competition.

i really can't think of any real political solution to this problem cept cooperation (no matter what the politics are of each signatory country) in alt energy and conservation/efficiency.

:hi:

peace

[norml]

17. Asking for a solution assumes there is a problem.

What problem with China needs a solution?

[bpilgrim]

18. resource competition

as mentioned above

peace

[norml]

26. China has higher fuel efficiency standards than we do.

For a number of reasons It is essential to have higher fuel efficiency standards. Unfortunately the Republicans oppose higher fuel efficiency standards in the USA. Increased efficiency in the use of resources, especially energy resources is essential everywhere. If the fear is that China will have more buying power, relative to the USA, then I'd say it's all the more reason to get our own economic house in order, rather than whining about having our lunch eaten by the competition. We need better relations, and more cooperation with the rest of the world, not more war.

[bpilgrim]

28. "We need better relations, and more cooperation" - the case the book makes

and i agree with the need of becoming more energy efficient, and would add to that clean/renewable energy.

but how do we get their from hear?

even if china became a democracy how do we get them to curb their consumption of traditional energy. how do we do it here at home? and do you think it is possible before WW breaks out?

peace

[norml]

29. From my search on the book that's not exactly the case it's making.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22china+the+gathering+threat%22&btnG=Google+Search It's a matter of how we get to those better relations, and more cooperation. From my search I'd say that this book is much loved and promoted by the movement that calls itself conservative. I'd say that the first step toward better relations, and more cooperation with the rest of the world might be to stop going on raving about what a dire threat the rest of the world is. As to how "WE get THEM to curb THEIR consumption" I suggest leading by example. If we raise our efficiency standards, the world will follow, if only because they want to be able to sell their products here.

[bpilgrim]

30. changing China to a democracy, from within, + greater cooperation

is how it was presented in the c-span panel discussion... how does that differ from your research?


i don't see how that would be a solution to slow their competition and increasing energy consumption, and as you mention our own issues with energy.

i also agree that categorizing them as a 'threat' isn't a good idea to foster democracy or cooperation and why i didn't use that term myself.

be that as it may, with increasing consumption all around, what is the best way to deal with this situation.

I think it is a good start for us to increase our efficiency but it won't be enough by itself and i don't necessarily agree that what if we do it the world will follow... the world (G8) is already in-front of us on energy efficiency for the most part yet we still have this problem.

peace

[Inland]

8. Gee, I'd borrow all its spare cash and beg it to help with North Korea.

And if that didn't work, I'd ask it to take all the US's manufacturing jobs.

Oh, and then I'd have Rummy speak harshly in Singapore about China's military spending to the embarrassed titters of southeast Asia, who know that China is spending just enough to control the immediate area as the US bogs down half way round the world, spending six bil a month on Iraq alone.

[bpilgrim]

9. you know there will be a LIMITLESS supply of weapons for the Iraqi Resista

from China and Russia 2 start.

Chaney ain't hiding in a nuclear bunker for nutt'n he knows we're play'n for keeps.

the MAJOR PROBLEM is they are fucking everything up and accelerating us into conflict which seems like doomsday to me.

can anyone see a possible way out of this mess?

:hi:

peace

peace

[kenny blankenship]

11. I say we sell them another eleventy-trillion dollars of our debts

That'll show 'em. Trust a roundeye and you get what you deserve!

[Yupster]

15. I don't think there really is much of a solution

Countries rise, and then they fal.

When countries are young, their people are often hungry and ambitious. Over time, people get fat and lazy. It's just pretty natural.

There's always someone else coming up behind you who's hungry and ambitious and if they have the population, natural resources, education, then they'll pass you unless you want to try to destroy them before they reach that point.

The US has had quite a run as the world's dominant power, but with five times our population and a people who seem to be at least as ambitious as ours, it doesn't seem hard to understand that they will eventually overtake us.

We've had an American century. Thre's probably a Chinese century coming. Hopefuly they'll be responsible with the power they earn.

[bpilgrim]

16. so do you think the U.S. will just fade away

i don't see how conflict (WW) can be avoided and i am looking for solutions, if anyone has any?

:hi:

peace

[Hubert Flottz]

19. We did so well in Iraq, why not haul off and kick China's a$$ now?

GOP Book Cooking 101, will not help with these numbers

US: Population:
295,734,134 (July 2005 est.)

Iraq: Population:
26,074,906 (July 2005 est.)

China: Population:
1,306,313,812 (July 2005
est.)



US: Military manpower - availability:
males age 18-49: 67,742,879 (2005 est.)

Iraq: Military manpower - availability:
males age 18-49: 5,870,640 (2005 est.)

China: Military manpower
males age 18-49: 342,956,265 (2005 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html

Armageddon anyone?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Pardon?

I haven't taken the insane rantings of Hudson Institute bullshit artists seriously before, and I'm not about to start.

[bpilgrim]

21. well

i hate having to take the insane designs of the PNAC planners seriously as well but that is the reality we live in.

anyways i was looking for comments on their solution or your OWN to deal with this very real ISSUE.

:hi:

peace

[Deja Q]

22. Just like we did to Iraq and Afghanistan and what we WILL do to India once

we (corporate america) have no further need for them.

:nuke:

:think:

[bpilgrim]

23. so you think we will go to war with them?

how would a Democrat handle this do you think?

peace

[bpilgrim]

24. can anyone untie the Gordian Knot without the sword?

:shrug:

peace

[bpilgrim]

31. kick

still tied up... anybody?

peace

[Just Me]

25. I think the US withdrawal from a power-sharing scheme with the,...

,...rest of the world community basically creates the environment which breeds a balance of power backlash. Would China be a threat if the US cooperated in power-sharing rather than pursue imperialistic endeavors? :shrug: I don't know the answer for certain.

However, when one country, especially one so rich in resources and power like the USA, abuses its position in the world imposing its will upon the international community, there is almost an unspoken demand for another country to balance the power that be.

[bpilgrim]

27. it. imho, has made it demonstratively worse since the neoCONs took over

and put their aggressive policies in place which has only escalated the tensions and accelerated the competition for resources and WMD.

i think it is also apparent that the neoCONs plan to use Alexander the greats 'solution' to the problem which in this case is no solution.

but i think that even the neo-liberal solution will fail since it doesn't deal with the underlying issue, increasing resource competition & consumption as supplies shrink.

who has a political solution to this problem?

is there one?

from the cheap seats i can't think of one especially in the current political climate that pretends to only get worse with the crazies at the helm and as it gets worse, justify the global crack down and user in the new dark ages.

there's gotta be a solution :shrug:

i agree that co-operation is the answer but how do we get there from here?

peace

[Just Me]

32. Well, it requires the kind of WILL demonstrated by global demonstrations.

People, all people, are challenging the abusive corporacrats who maintain a status quo that HURTS humanity.

We WANT an international body that protects us. We are AWARE of those who have "possessed" all international bodies to exploit us.

WE are a movement. WE will be "pacified" but never destroyed.

Baby steps, my friend.

WE are getting "there" from "here". WE always have and always will. It's just, our impact seems small in the splices of life that we experience. We fail to see our own place as members of the greatest of human potential.

[bpilgrim]

33. the course we are on now seems to lead towards global conflict

and in the age of NUCLEAR WEAPONS in will be catastrophic for all.

i think that all our old social & political institutions are completely inadequate to the task at hand and would like to think of new ones that can actually help us.

The first step as i see it is to pass the word about the problems...
the next to set up organizations to effectively deal with them. right now i think it may be a form of socialism that would be the best way to deal with these issues but i am not sure and want to solicit ideas from DU.

Anyone have any concrete ideas on how we deal with these problems in the context of china and us relations as a starting point?

peace