Origin of AIDS Debate

[alcibiades_mystery]

I just saw the documentary "The Origin of AIDS" which details the claim that HIV-1 emerged in the human population because SIV-infected chimpanzee kidneys were used as a substrate for at least some of the polio vaccine that was given to almost 1,000,000 people in Central Africa, 1957-1960, a claim made famous by Edward Hooper in his book The River. The documentary also covers the scientific brou-ha-ha that followed the publication of The River, primarily the Origin of AIDS conference at the Royal Society in September 2000, in which the big guns came gunning for Hooper.

Just to be clear, Hooper's is not a "The CIA gave AIDS to Africans" theory. Hooper assumes that everyone he says was producing vaccine with chimpanzee organs in Stanleyville was doing so with good intentions (for their part, the scientists responsible for the African vaccination program dispute that they ever produced vaccine in the Stanleyville Medical Laboratory, and further deny ever using chimpanzee organs as vaccine substrates). If you are unfamiliar with the debate, you can find much more of it on Hooper's site, here:

http://www.aidsorigins.com/

I thought it would make for an interesting dicsussion...

[getmeouttahere]

1. I wouldn't put anything past the CIA....

I think this is one of those debates that will never lead to any kind of resolution, mostly because someone on one side or the other will do everything they can to suppress information.

[bryant69]

4. What are the sides in this debate?

Just out of curiousity.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. The sides in the Origin of AIDS debate

(or at least the Hooper v. "Scientific Establishment" debate) go like this:

Hooper: HIV emerged in the human population because SIV-infected chimpanzee organs were used as a culture for the production of polio vaccine which was subsequently used on about 1 million Central Africans (at the time, the Belgian Congo, Rwanda, Burundi) as part of a massive testing program. Vaccine was produced locally in the Stanleyville Medical Laboratory using chimpanzees from an associated camp. The geographical correlation is clear: almost all confirmed pre-1981 appearances of HIV correlate exactly with the villages in which polio vaccine was distributed. Moreover, all pre-1981 occurences begin to appear around 1958-1962, all post-inoculation (some analyses claim that the variation of HIV-1-M sub-types mean that it must have emerged in the 1930's, since it could not have produced so many mutations in such a short time, but this is disputed by Hooper for several reasons)

S-E: HIV emerged naturally through the interaction of humans and SIV-infected monkeys, probably through exposure to blood. The polio theory is impossible because 1) polio vaccines were not produced in Stanleyville (a claim disputed by local witnesses, including both Congolese and European technicians), 2) chimpanzee organs would not have been used to produce the vaccine (what happened to over 400 chimps at the associated camp, then?), 3)even were chimpanzee organs used, no SIV could withstand the production process (jury's out on this, says Hooper). Moroever, a sample from the same "pool" as that supposedly used in Africa has been tested and shows no chimp DNA and no SIV (Hooper says that because it wqas the same "pool" doesn't mean that it was the same vaccine used in Africa).

[bryant69]

14. OK. And where does teh CIA show up?

Does Hooper reference them directly?

Bryant

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. No...there is no CIA involvement in Hooper's theory

As I stated in the original post

[bryant69]

21. Read it wrong - i'm sorry.

[sam sarrha]

2. Dr. Gallo had a grant from the military to produce Bio Weapons

he was using the VIRUS from Cancer tumors and recombinate DNA techniques..{yes folks it can be caused by viruses} I am sure he was using Primate tumors. he discovered the AID's virus then sealed the evildence and waited like 4 or 5 years for someone to "Confirm" his discovery... isnt that weird.. What DR doesnt want to grab the golden ring in a situation like that??? maybe one who created it as a weapond.??

[emcguffie]

3. It is all questionable.

Step back, way way back, and look at the disease situation on earth, and remind yourself that there WAS a secret virus program for many, many years. What were they doing? They must have made some viruses. Those viruses could have gotten out accidentally. Not necessarily, but what DID they make? What have they done with that?

I suggest this becaues I have CFIDS/FM, and I want to know where it came from. This is an epidemic that is ruining many lives, and it still isn't being researched seriously, just as Gulf War Illness isn't. Nowadays, there is a lot of concern that the A strain of HHV-6 and/or Mycoplasma could be involved in many diseases: AIDS, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, scleroderma, ALS, and others. Diseases that disrupt the immune system.

I have a question for anyone who would like to try to answer it: Why did the VA penalize vets who took antibiotics prescribed by other MDs? For years, they would strip a vet of his benefits if he filled a prescription for doxycycline, unless I have been reading lies. And the doxycycline, taken long term, has given many sick vets their lives back.

And the government would basically only fund research that would treat the disease as an emotional one. Same with CFIDS/FM. But, seriously, how could post traumatic stress disorder kill 15,000 vets, and cripple many more?

I don't know what is going on, but something is.

Oh, and they DID make that mycoplasma that is making the vets sick, Mycoplasma incognitus fermentans, and put part of the AIDS capcid on it to make it more disease-causing, and test it on patients in a prison in Texas. And it is contagious, so guards got it and took it home. This is all true.

So I'm less inclined to be so quick to pooh-pooh any "conspiracy theories" anymore. I may be the victim of one.

Now, whether we sold that to Saddam and he gave it to the vets, or if it got in the vaccines we made the vets take, I don't know. And there is quite a bit of disagreement on this, because vets who didn't go to Iraq got sick. Maybe they were exposed to stuff that came back on equipment or in duffel bags, or maybe they got it in their vaccines.

There are more nefarious theories than these.

[Protagoras]

11. This link freaked me out with its list

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread1044-30.html

Don't know if it's all true or partly rumor but I suspect at too much is true regardless

"...a partial list;

1950 In an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Franciso. Monitoring devices are situated throughout the city in order to test the extent of infection. Many residents become ill with pneumonia-like symptoms.

1951 Department of Defense begins open air tests using disease-producing bacteria and viruses. Tests last through 1969 and there is concern that people in the surrounding areas have been exposed.

1953 U.S. military releases clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide gas over Winnipeg, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland, and Leesburg, Virginia. Their intent is to determine how efficiently they could disperse chemical agents.

1953 Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii.

...

1955 Army Chemical Corps continues LSD research, studying its potential use as a chemical incapacitating agent. More than 1,000 Americans participate in the tests, which continue until 1958.

1956 U.S. military releases mosquitoes infected with Yellow Fever over Savannah, Ga and Avon Park, Fl. Following each test, Army agents posing as public health officials test victims for effects.

...

1970 United States intensifies its development of "ethnic weapons" (Military Review, Nov., 1970), designed to selectively target and eliminate specific ethnic groups who are susceptible due to genetic differences and variations in DNA.

1975 The virus section of Fort Detrick's Center for Biological Warfare Research is renamed the Fredrick Cancer Research Facilities and placed under the supervision of the National Cancer Institute (NCI) . It is here that a special virus cancer program is initiated by the U.S. Navy, purportedly to develop cancer-causing viruses. It is also here that retrovirologists isolate a virus to which no immunity exists. It is later named HTLV (Human T-cell Leukemia Virus).

1977 Senate hearings on Health and Scientific Research confirm that 239 populated areas had been contaminated with biological agents between 1949 and 1969. Some of the areas included San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Key West, Panama City, Minneapolis, and St. Louis... "

and more...

[emcguffie]

15. Yeah. I've fallen through the rabbit hole.

n/t

[Mizmoon]

5. In the 1980s I had "the Book of Lists"

yes, this is the crap we were reduced to before the internets came along to entertain us.

In this book they talked about a strange disease called "Kuru" or "sleeping sickness". The disease, the book said (it's not a medical text, remember) was caused by eating green monkey meat. The symptoms sounded like Mad Cow disease.

I only mention this because I think it's important to note that I heard confirmation that people were eating those monkeys and it was making some of them sick with a strange illness long before I ever heard of AIDS. And because of what I read I sometimes wonder if AIDS and Mad Cow are related at some level ...

[emcguffie]

16. kuru is mad cow, and that is caused by prions.

Whether or not the story about giving those people the kuru is true or not... I don't know. But things are definitely getting curiouser and curiouser.

[sam sarrha]

6. there was also a research paper about how an "Agent" was spread using

different "Vehicles" in Africa.. the conclusion was that it was spread most effectively using 'Vacinations'...

I read about it right after the debate began.. the author was really curious because the 'agent' was never revealed.

but AID's is a perfect disease for the Asshole's of Evil to depopulate the 3rd world to take their natural resources. think about it..the selfrightious fundies finding a weapon to kill off the non-believers and "Fornicators" in the name of Jesus

[alcibiades_mystery]

7. Wow...it's really incredible how this turned into a villain-thread

Let me restate, Hooper posits no dark conspiracy to weaponize anything or depopulate the Third World. Rather, he posits really poor processes that allowed primate-substrates to be used in the production of polio vaccine without any cross-indication for those substrates themselves.

I am, of course, happy to hear these other theories (as dubious as they sound to me initially), but Hooper's theory at least has strong evidence on its side and has caused the scientific establishment to take notice and vigorously defend itself. None of these other theories get anything but snickers (and for good reason...they are always pretty nebulous when it comes to describing real mechanisms for emergence - Hooper's theory suffers from no such deficiency).

[The Magistrate]

8. Mr. Hooper's Theory, Sir

Does seem to make some sense. It is certainly consistent with how the world works, in my experience of it: error is the great factor, running so far ahead of malice it is not even a race. Refutatutions of it also seem pretty sound, and it is not within my capability to decide between the sides in the matter.

"No good deed goes unpunished."

[GiovanniC]

9. To Expand Upon Your Point:

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
- Nick Diamos

[paula777]

13. That quote really makes me think about BushCo. Stupidity or malice?

Hmmmmmmmm

[GiovanniC]

17. Can His Actions Really Be Explained

By mere stupidity alone?

[paula777]

20. Personally I have always thought 'malice' but the maybe I'm giving

him too much credit. Maybe its just simple stupidity.

[Protagoras]

12. Villian through arrogance

stupidity, or simeple carelessness perhaps.

We play with things beyond our understanding far too often. But that doesn't preclude maliciousness either.

[emcguffie]

18. How about Mycoplasma fermentans incognitas

-- in sick vets, with 40% of the genetic material of the capsid of the HIV virus in it? If I've stated that correctly.

That is a pretty well known scientist who is saying this. And he has gotten in quite a bit of trouble over it, too. When he first found it, he said that it had to have been engineered, because it was part of the HIV stuck onto the Mycoplasma.

Garth Nicolson, at the Institute for Molecular Medicine, www.immed.org. Who, by the way, was also involved in the secret virus program in its early days.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Any more info on this? n/t

[emcguffie]

23. There's mountains.

On the www.immed.org site. Let me see.

http://www.immed.org/illness/gulfwar_illness_research.html

Look at bits of this one, from 1996:

The Enemy--From Within

by Nancy L. Nicolson, PhD. and Garth L. Nicolson, PhD.
The Institute for Molecular Medicine
Irvine, California 92619-2470


Operation Desert Storm and its unseen aftermath have forever changed the life of our family. First there was the euphoria of victory in this 100 hour war with very few casualties and the safe return of our step-daughter who was involved in the deep insertions into Iraq with Airborne and Special Forces units. But slowly the euphoria turned to nagging questions as to whether our victory was as complete as advertised, especially when our veterans started to come down with Gulf War Illness which eventually felled everyone in our family. And we were not alone. There are now approximately 100,000 Americans sick with Gulf War Illness, and the number of estimated deaths from all causes has risen to 12,000-15,000, up from the approximately 7,000 first reported in our earlier articles in Criminal Politics. The illness is spreading in the population, because it is an airborne pathogen. For the first time we are now detecting the illness in the general population in the U.S., but in the Middle East Gulf War Illness is already a major public health problem. This is a problem that will not go away, and we will have to face it head on and stop denying and dismissing its dangers.

We Americans love a challenge, and we feel that we rose to the occasion. We were able to gather blood samples and clinical information on Gulf War Illness, describe it as a Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like condition, identify one of the potential causes, an unusual invasive microorganism that is probably an airborne Biological Weapon released during the Gulf War, suggest successful treatments for this illness and publish our results in 9 articles, reports and letters in peer-reviewed medical journals. Our biggest mistake was that we naively thought that our government would be supportive and grateful for our assistance. What happened instead has been a virtual nightmare. We were attacked viciously by high level military physicians, ostracized by certain colleagues who spread rumors questioning our sanity, forced out of our academic institution by a concerted effort that involved nonstop administrative harassment, mail and courier theft, wiretaps, credit card fraud, breaking of a tenure contract, computer and documents theft, attempts to block our scientific and medical presentations, sabotage our clinical samples and undermine our employees.

But you will find more articles than you can read, I'm afraid.

Things have finally changed, 14 years after the fact. But it took a long time and many people died and many people suffered.

[emcguffie]

24. here's more.

From a news article.

http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol35i1/page03.htm

According to Garth Nicolson, the institute’s president, roughly 80 percent responded favorably to a regimen that included vitamins and antibiotics, particularly doxycycline.

Sick Gulf veterans learned, however, that some doctors serving the armed forces and the Department of Veteran Affairs (VA) refused to acknowledge the effectiveness of doxycycline. As one retired Special Forces officer pointed out, “I got my blood sent to Dr. Nicolson for free testing and got my prescription for doxycycline. I went to have it filled and not only did they take away my military ID card, but they would not allow me to have the doxycycline to save my life.”4

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Kicky kick kick

n/t