Please consider this regarding tasering and non violent protest.

[AX10]

For the last few days, DU has had many posts with lively discussions regarding the merits of police using tasers on suspects.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3795253&mesg_id=3795253&page=

In this case, the woman is being non compliant but NON violent. Sadly many here defend the officer's actions. Just consider this: if we are staging a protest (of Bush's actions/misactions) or involving ourselves in a protest of passive resistance(Ghandi), and which means that we are NOT harming the public, do the police have the right to use force such as a baton of taser gun on us? What about all of those at Harvard and Yale who stage sit ins to fight for better wages for the university workers, many who are minorities or immigrants.

Now, I will agree that Ms. Goodwin was was acting innappropriately. But so was the cop (McNevin) and she was not threatening the officers.

At the same time, there are claims that there is tension between Goodwin's family and the Palm Beach police department. Additionally, the officer was driving in a Yellow Ford Mustang (not a typical police car) and he would not identify himself nor his badge number to Ms. Goodwin. This goes against the procedure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3799613

This Florida Bartender was tasered (in the breast) after asking police to arrest a man who threw a drink at her. Why wasn't he arrested?
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2005/05/29/a17a_taser_vig3_0529.html

Please consider this! Should we be tasered for partaking in peaceful and passive protest?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Very excellent points.

Welcome to DU :toast:

[AX10]

2. Thanks for the support!

:cheers:

[doodadem]

3. LOL--Nothingshocksmeanymore

Sorry, I'm looking at your screen name, then looking at the discussion on tasers, and thinking you may need a lightening rod!

I received this email back from a buddy of mine in FL today, after discussed this case: "My sheriff buddy volunteered to get tasered. Said he'll never do it again. He's a 6'2' young, strong guy." Maybe if more cops did this, they'd be less likely to use the device indiscriminately.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Yeah..I guess the handle is a bit amusing in this context

I thought all cops who used it were tasered prior to using it. Is that a myth? Sounds like it, eh?

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Depends where it is a requiremetn in California

part of acaademy training

[ret5hd]

5. if anything, it makes some more likely to use it...

for the thrill, ya know.

[AX10]

8. Interesting to hear. Your freind is conceding that taser...

guns hurt alot and maybe they should not be used as OFTEN on non violent people!

[OrlandoGator]

10. Most police academies today require trainees to be pep-sprayed and tased.

n/t

[cestpaspossible]

6. You must keep in mind how small the minority of DUers defending McNevin is

and guess what most of them do for a living.

[AX10]

9. That "minority" reminds me of the right wing religious fundamentalists.

they are small in terms of numbers but are VERY loud. I am dissappointed to hear the defenses in favor of McNevin. I am very upset. It is fully justfiable on violent suspects but non cooperation does not qualify for such assault.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3799613&mesg_id=3799613&page=

[cestpaspossible]

13. Just a heads up to a DU newcomer

those kind of comparisons are frowned upon here.... I understand your upset, but in an attempt to maintain civility at du, it is generally not a good idea to compare people to fundies, freepers, etc.

[Pithlet]

15. It is upsetting to me, too.

Seeing such actions defended on DU, even if it is by a minority, really got to me as well. I understand how you feel.

[OrlandoGator]

7. There are a few factual errors in your post.

First, Ms. Goodwin asks the officer for his "name and unit number". Officer McNevin replied with his name and that he did not have a unit number. McNevin was in uniform.

As for Ms. Goodwin being nonviolent and unarmed, there is no way for an officer to know these things if a subject does not comply with his arrest commands.

There are those here who argue that the officers should have stood there as long as Goodwin felt like sitting in her car. One has even argued that the cops should have politely waited for her to wrap up her phone call.

The woman was being arrested. Police officers don't have the luxury of arresting suspects on their own terms. She refused at least six times to exit the vehicle. Since she interfered with the officers' assessment of the extent of the threat she posed, they had no option but to handle the situation the way they did. It didn't help matters that she made some kind of rapid threatening movement toward the officers.

The use of the Taser here was the safest (to Goodwin and the police officers) way to forcibly get Goodwin to exit the vehicle. Some here have said that reaching into the car and dragging her out was a better option. This is simply false. Doing that presents many risks to the officers and would have likely resulted in a serious injury to Goodwin (broken arm, dislocated shoulder, facial injury).

Without the Taser, these officers would have used their sidearms to threaten the woman out of the car. For those hoping for a "less violent" outcome, do you think that pointing a gun in her face would have been better?

The use of the Taser here may possibly have saved Goodwin's life.

[Pithlet]

11. None of what you said

excuses what that officer did. He could have pulled her out and cuffed her. And I don't think too many people would be howling over that. You stated that people are arguing that the cop should have done nothing. Where did anyone say that? People are not arguing that the cop had NO solutions available to him. That cops can never arrest anyone if they don't want to be arrested. If anyone has, they're clearly in the minority. What most of us are arguing is that repeatedly tasering someone for non violently refusing to get out of their car, during a routine traffic stop is excessive force to say the least, and outright police brutality to say the worst (and my opinion reflects the later).

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. So you'd rather have the officer go up in the scale

and use deadly force?

or dislocate the arm, or break it?

Please undersstand once more thigns came out it is clear she was resisting arrest and the officers used the LEAST ammount of force, may be debatable whether they needed to do it twice, but it was still the least ammount of force

[cestpaspossible]

20. Yeah, those were the only choices.

Instant obedience, using a taser, deadly force, or breaking or dislocating her arm.

That's really the whole range of options?

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Ok here is the secquence

Woman is speeding (twice the speed limit)

Officer verbally commanded her to get out of the car SIX TIMES... why? She had a suspended licence, which gives the officer probable cause and a reason to impound that vehicle. Woman refuses and gets on the phone... well if she was calling a lawyer that may be ok, tape is not clear on this

Next level for the officer is physical compliance, given the situation adn the woman was getting abusive, the taser was in teh grocery list...especially after she seemed to move fast. If she had fought the officer then other optons become increasingly available... all the way to deadly force.

The lesson for the day is... if stopped at a traffic stop keep your hands where officers can see them at all times... and comply... it will be easier for all involved...

Now are officers at times wrong? Absolutely, but after watchign the tape... it does look the officer acted apropriately and most imprtant, nobody really got hurt. I guess people want to go to the good ol' days when the only options were verbal commands, night stick and gun.

[cestpaspossible]

24. You don't need to tell me what happened; I saw it.

The officer demanded instant obedience and when he didn't get it, he immediately resorted to threats and force. If that's the procedure, than the procedure is wrong. Non-violent suspects should not be subjected to tazing or similarly painful procedures simply because they haven't been properly indoctrinated to instantly obey police orders. Yes her actions were also wrong. But guess what: two wrongs do not make a right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. I saw it too

and I hasve a question to you, when does the officer know when a suspect (she is at that moment), is not posing a threat to him?

Look you claim to know how the stret works... I will be very nasty right at the moment, but your concept shows you know jack or shit of how fast things can go south

Most people, 95% of us, are law abiding... it is the other five percent that you want the cops tehre to deal with ... and no, not all encounters wiht them start on the wrong foot as it were...

And yes she was abusive ... you NEVER do taht with an officer unless you want that officer to increase his response matrix... this is not mayberry but real life.

[cestpaspossible]

26. A simple answer

and I hasve a question to you, when does the officer know when a suspect (she is at that moment), is not posing a threat to him?

When he is looking at her sitting peacefully - although not cooperatively - in her car talking on the phone. Look we both saw what happened, there was no furtive movement, nothing like that, just a failure to comply with a command. What are you claiming was the trigger that caused him to believe he was being threatened?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Did she or didn't she verbally abuse the cop?

She did... this is at the very least a misdemeanmor, by the way.

No she was not being peaceful... she was also going twice the speed limit when stopped and driving with a suspended licence.

By the way, my advise, if you are stoppped COMPLY!

I know you may hate to do that, and yuo may think all cops are pigs, but trust me when you need them you will STILL call 9.11

[cestpaspossible]

28. I think that pretty much sums up the corrupting influence of power.

For this cop, or anyone else, to think that any 'verbal abuse' he receives from someone justifies a tazing, is incomprehensible to me. That the attitude that talking back to authority justifies a violent response is so widespread in our society is gravely troubling to me. Our culture is sick with fantasies of power and control.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Nah I think this sums up the mayberry attitude yuo have

I have worked in the streeets, as a medic, and have been physically assaulted by patients.

I was not a cop...

It did happen.

I will repeat this, you know neither jack or shit of what goes on in them streets, and if you think the cop abused his power, contact the civilian review board. From the tape. he will be... worst case, sent back for retraining... they DID use the least ammount of force to deal wiht the situation

You think otherwise, move to mayberry

[cestpaspossible]

30. I see.

thanks for clearing that up

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. What taht I do have some field experience?

Sorry, bud, but you will find those of us who do, will scream to no end when the cops do what they should not... but we have also seen the other side of life... I suspect you have not.

Oh and if yuo are a victim of crime, do not call 9.11, obviously the cops will get a tad violent on the boys who don't know how to play well with others

[cestpaspossible]

32. Everyone should realize that calling 911 is no guarantee you wont be

arrested or otherwise fall victim to a police officer 'following procedure'.

[Baclava]

23. Of course not...

They could use their boots too...

[Lars39]

12. If I'm understanding this correctly, the police officer

was NOT driving a squad car, WAS wearing a uniform, and stated that he DID NOT have a unit number? Is a unit number the same as a badge number? And was he wearing a badge with a number?
Seems like to her it was debatable as to whether he was a real cop.

Why should she comply with someone who she wasn't even sure was a police officer?
How about the police officer actually TALK to the woman to reassure her that he was a real cop.

He could prove that without a taser.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Officer IN UNIFORM, wearing a BADGE

the badge number is all she may need... oif

[shockra]

14. Tasering.

Another entry in the chapter of what we do to animals we eventually do to people. Circus animals are shocked to subdue, or train them. Rodeo animals are shocked to infuriate them, and make them buck.

Surprise, surprise, tasering a human doesn't always have the intended consequence.

[DELUSIONAL]

16. Attach the taser gun to the cop's balls -- he WILL think twice

about using the taser gun.

But then there are the passive folk who think that cops can never do any wrong -- even if they rape, murder -- they usually get away with their crimes.

How many of the cop boys are addicted to steroids? Some of the super macho photos of cops -- makes me think they are working out too much and/or using steroids.

I've seen too many of these suckers misbehave when encountering peaceful protesters -- well people who lived in Berkeley during the Free Speech days can tell us many stories about the misuse of tear gas and night sticks against protesters. We have witnessed video of cops HOLDING EYES open to apply pepper "spray". We will probably see video of cops tasering helpless handcuffed protesters laying on the street. If there is a way to abuse these new toys the cops will do it.

I don't trust the damned cops -- ever. As a woman -- I would never trust a male cop -- ever. I've seen far too many male cops misuse the authority of their uniform to bully and mistreat women.

I don't trust the military and I don't trust cops -- both lie -- lying is simply part of their jobs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Ok having worked in EMS for ten years let me tell you

I always traeted my patients with respect but omore than once I found a weapon on them.. I am not talking a knive, but a gun... and more tahn once I was abused by them patients. By your logic I should have never trusted my patients... wait I used the moto of most civil servants, treat them as if they were the Mayor, but be ready to respond when they attack (which I had a couple do) And I was not a cop, imagine that