A cop pulls over a motorist. Who should be afraid?

[cestpaspossible]

Poll question: A cop pulls over a motorist. Who should be afraid?

Routine traffic stop. Who has more to fear? Who is more likely to become a victim of violence, the cop, or the motorist?

We'll leave out the question of non-violent arrest, for now.

[Roland99]

1. The cop. Hands-down. Regardless of the sensationalistic media.

My cousin is a city police officer. I don't see how she does it.

[Warpy]

11. No kidding, a cop never knows how drunk

or hopped up on crack, speed, or PCP anyone he stops is going to be. All those drugs make people belligerent as hell while making them think they're going to get away with socking a cop.

I dont' know how they do it, either.

Yes, there are taser happy bad cops out there who need classes in how to handle frightened and hysterical people. Most cops are OK guys who are out there to keep us from injuring each other. They often have people attempt to injure them first.

[Roland99]

15. Exactly! I've been to many sheriff's offices in Florida, too.

and I have nothing but the utmost in respect for those that wear the badge. They never know what will happen when they pull someone over or go to serve a warrant for an arrest.

All the people up here voting for the motorist haven't a clue. They're basing their vote on the sensationalistic media reporting of some over-zealous taser usage.

[cestpaspossible]

17. On the other hand, a motorist never knows how well-trained, reasonable,

in control of himself, emotionally stable, non-bigoted, etc a cop who pulls them over is going to be.

A lot of people have 'assumed' the cop would act in a reasonable manner and have paid the price.

[Walt Starr]

22. and regardless of sensationalized rhetoric on internet message boards

Cops face more danger in a traffic stop than at any other point in the perfromance of their duties.

[pocket]

2. depends, is the motorist black?

need more info

[sniffa]

3. my question too

[cestpaspossible]

33. That'll just have to be a random factor in this poll

[leftofthedial]

4. cops represent state coercion, which is violence

the gun, even still in its holster, represents the threat of violence.

Therefore, 100% of motorists who are pulled over are already "victims" of violence.

Otherwise, they wouldn't stop.

[AverageJoe]

9. Amen

I could not agree more. Well said, indeed.

[not systems]

16. that is it.

A society that minimizes violent threat is a humane society.

Our's doesn't more so all the time.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Would that be a good thing?

I don't know about you, but people in my neighborhood drive badly enough as it is. I wouldn't want my family to share the road with some of these assholes if they weren't at all afraid of getting pulled over.

[leftofthedial]

36. "good" or "bad" depends on how the power is used

it is not an intrinsic quality of the power itself

if they are using their power to make the community safer, that's arguably a "good" thing.

Increasingly, though, their power is employed by our corporate and wealthy masters to preserve the status quo

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Wow That IS ominous sounding.. Again, I don't know where you live.

Where I live, the local police spend most of their time stopping speeders.

[One_Life_To_Give]

5. Cop is more likely to be shot

than the motorist.

[cestpaspossible]

12. Is that really true? I'd like to see the statistics to back it up.

On the face of it, it seems unlikely. My guess is that more motorists are shot by cops than cops shot by motorists.

[One_Life_To_Give]

34. 1/2 of the statistics

Of 16.8 million traffic stops in 2002 (Bureau of Justice statistics)
The FBI reports 10 officers killed. Over the ten year period 1993-2002 29 (of the 97) officers were killed while approaching the offenders. (Note: 97 officers were killed in vehical stops over the ten year period.)


So it appears that in any given year 10 cops will be killed during traffic stops.

[cestpaspossible]

37. Of what value is half the data? None.

Without knowing how many motorists are killed or injured during traffic stops, knowing how many cops are is of absolutely no value for making a comparison. It would be like if I said that I have more apples than oranges and tried to back up my statement by saying that I have 5 apples.

[One_Life_To_Give]

50. Meant as a interim report

Still trying to find out how often a cop walks up along side the car. And when the operator tries to hand over license and registration the cop blows them away.

Dept of Justice reports that on average 80 cops per year are murdered in the line of duty. While the cops kill (justifiably) 400 per year.

Did find statistics for "Use of Force" in traffic stops 1999
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cdsp99.pdf

[cestpaspossible]

60. Should I hold my breath waiting for the followup?

[Tomee450]

19. Nonsense

There was a study done several years ago which proved that the claim that cops were more endangered than person employed in other occupations was greatly exaggerated. Statistics did not support that belief.

[cestpaspossible]

23. Didn't it turn out the most dangerous profession is deep-sea fishing?

Many men died to bring you that tunafish sandwich.

[One_Life_To_Give]

53. Crab Sandwich

IIRC The Alaskan Crab fleet has the most dangerous job in the country.

[cestpaspossible]

55. ah, now you're making me hungry.

crab. yum.

[tridim]

6. I got pulled over recently for "bad tags"

Which turned out to be a DMV mistake. At one point during the 45 minute ordeal I attempted to get out of my car to look at my own plates and the cop put his hand on his sidearm and told me to "stay in the car". I was certainly afraid, and guilty until proven otherwise.

I was also accused of "payback" for reporting domestic violence in my complex. I told that cop to fuck off.

[The Magistrate]

7. Both Should Know Some Fear, Sir

[rocktivity]

8. Cops are supposed to know how to control of their fear

Technically, cops are in more danger simply because they have no idea of what they're walking into. But even routine traffic stops are made for a reason, and cops are supposed to be trained to not panic ESPECIALLY if the motorist does, and to maintain control of the situation.

__________________________________
rocknation

[GAlanJag]

10. I wouldn't want that job

I've had the pleasure of knowing several police oficers over the course of my life. I don't know how they do it either. Anytime you (as a police officer) pull over a car for speeding or some other traffic infraction, you don't know if the person driving has a gun and is on probation for a crime. This may mean that the driver doesn't want to go back to jail. Perhaps even to the point of doing anything not to go back, such as shooting the officer as he comes up along side the car.

To say that even with the gun holstered there is violence when an officer pulls over a citizen sets a nice precedent. Does that mean that if the citizen is larger than the officer or has a weapon, then before doing anything he invests the situation with violence? What about a citizen and a citizen? You might be able to see the gun, but you can't tell if someone is going to become physically violent.

Bottom line, police officers have a tough job and thank God for them. Are there some bad cops? Yes, but we can't stereotype people without making numerous mistakes.

[Tomee450]

13. The motorist, if he's black.

[Rex]

14. I doubt there is such a thing as a routine traffic stop.

Seems like that is when a cop gets shot.

[B Calm]

18. Haven't met a cop yet that wasn't on an ego trip. Myself I never

have feared a cop, I just build up their huge ego with hopes he or she will let me off easy..

[patcox2]

20. The percentage of cops killed by the public is higher.

While cops definitely kill more people than the number of cops who are killed, on the other hand, there are so many more members of the general public, that the percentage of cops who are killed by the public is higher than the percentage of the public killed by cops.

Now the really relevant comparison is the percentage of cops killed versus percentage of the public who are innocent who are killed by cops, thats probably a tiny number.

Anyway, I can understand why the cop is probably as on-edge as I am when he first walks up to the car, any car he pulls over.

[cestpaspossible]

24. Do you have any links that support those assertions?

I'd like to see the data for myself.

[patcox2]

39. Commondreams.org, google

According to commondreams.org, the number of police homicides per year is around 380. There is no breakdown as to justifiable or not, the assumption is that these are justified. Google annual police deaths, the number hovers near 150 to 160 per year, very consistently, nationwide.

[cestpaspossible]

46. Well if you have a link, lets see it. What is the url?

I don't really see how what you are saying is relevant to the question posed in the poll, but perhaps if I could see the data for myself it would make more sense.

[patcox2]

57. The data is not available any one place, but its all over.

just google "annual police deaths" or "annual police homicides." You should trust what you find on your own better than anything I pick for you.

I wasn't making that serious a point, really, except pointing out what might not be intutitively obvious. Although the police are far more likely to beat or kill someone a member of the public that they interact with than vice-versa, nevertheless the incidence of violence against police is higher than the incidence of police violence in the general public. Put another way, its likely true that every cop alive has taken a punch from an unruly person, whereas only a small percentage of the public has been punched by a cop.

[cestpaspossible]

58. What are the urls? If you got the info from the web, you can provide

the urls. If you got the info from a book, you can provide the name of the book and the page number, likewise with any other print publication.

On the other hand, if you aren't really citing statistics, but blowing smoke, you will continue to just assert that the information is out there, somewhere.

I could say that the moon is made of green cheese and when asked to support my claim with a reference I could just pretend that 'google' supports what I'm saying.


I have doubts that what you are saying is true, and I am challenging you to support your claim with a reference -- one that can be examined to see if it really supports your position.

[not systems]

21. The Stolen Lives Project -- Remembering the victims of police violence

http://stolenlives.org/

There is a nationwide epidemic of police brutality in the United States. The victims are overwhelmingly African American, Latino and other people of color.

Stolen Lives provides important and compelling exposures of the nationwide epidemic of police brutality and murder. People who’ve been killed, their families and loved ones, and communities under the gun speak through the pages and tell their stories. And they get a platform to speak out even more broadly.

Among people who don’t deal with police brutality in their daily lives, this book shows that it’s more than just a “few bad apples” or some “isolated incidents.” Many such people will be moved to join the struggle against police brutality and stand with those under the gun when they see the shocking scope of this epidemic.

Read about the state by state cases:

http://stolenlives.org/read/

[Sentath]

25. Every one in a 3-5 hundred foot radius? (nt)

[ComerPerro]

26. I'd say the Cop is higher risk, because he isn't as likely

to know what he is walking into

[cestpaspossible]

29. I don't get it. The cop doesn't know what to expect but

the motorist does? How does that work? I've never known what was going to happen when I got pulled over... especially if I didn't know why I'd been pulled over...

What makes you think the motorist knows in advance what they are getting into? Did Victoria Goodwin know what she was getting into?

[ComerPerro]

32. Cops are walking up to the car window. They have nothing to go on

For all they know, a very angry person with a shotgun could be sitting in the drivers seat, waiting for them.

[cestpaspossible]

35. The motorist has nothing to go on either. But they KNOW the cop is armed.

For all they know, a very angry cop with a bias against people who look like the motorist could be approaching the car, gleefully anticipating the upcoming interaction.

Don't you see that it goes both ways?

[ComerPerro]

40. So the cop is just as likely as the motorist to just shoot for no reason

somehow I doubt that.

Granted, as a motorist, I know that I personally would never do something like that. But the cop doesn't.

I could be anyone.

If I am a killer, I already consider myself to be unaccountable to anyone. Meanwhile, the cop knows that every action he takes is monitored.

[cestpaspossible]

44. First of all, there are alot more ways to inflict violence than shooting.

Second, unless you have some real statistics to back up your opinions, your guesses about what is 'likely' is of dubious value.


still, you bring up 'If I am a killer'... who is more likely to be someone who has killed, a random motorist or a random cop?... I'd be interested to see the statistics on that as well.

Meanwhile, the cop knows that every action he takes is monitored.

LOL, there's a BIG difference between being 'monitored' and being 'accountable'.

[ComerPerro]

49. Yeah, but like you said: You KNOW the cop has a gun

Since you know what you are going to do, you of course know that you are not a risk to the cop. But the cop has no way of knowing that.

By the same token, the cop knows whether or not he is going to act crazy, but has not a clue what the person in the car is going to do.

One thing the cop can be sure of is that the motorist will probably be upset.


Honestly, I wasn't aware that "statistics" are necessary.

But, I don't see you offering any...

[cestpaspossible]

51. It's just bogus to say

the cop has more to fear because he does't know what to expect.

The cop doesn't know what to expect from the motorist and the motorist doesn't know what to expect from the cop.

There is no distinction between them on this, it is not a valid argument to say the cop has more to fear because he doesn't know what to expect because they both don't know what to expect.

[ComerPerro]

52. That's my point too. Its not a black or white issue. It's very gray

However, I think the cop is at greater risk.

A motorist could be tazered, wrongly arrested, or in some extreme cases beaten or shot.

But a cop could be walking right into the barrel of a loaded gun.

[cestpaspossible]

59. Odd, we hold opposite views, yet you say we are making the same point.

I don't agree.

[politicat]

27. Depends on so many factors....

Is the motorist openly gay? +2
openly lesbian? +2 with 5% chance of sexual assault
openly non-mainstream religious? +2 verbal abuse
not white? +1
not white male? +5
driving a ratty vehicle? +2
driving a nice vehicle? +7
Is the community overtly religious and conservative?
Is the motorist conforming to those religious and conservative attitudes or bucking the system?
If conforming? no points
If not conforming? +1-7 points, depending on degree.
Can the vehicle possibly be considered non-standard? +2

I lived in a conservative, religious town where I bucked the system by being educated, openly feminist, non-christian, and bisexual. I drove an older car that, while mechanically and functionally sound (save for a manufacturing defect that could not be remedied legally), looked like a dog and had become something of a bumper-sticker bulletin board. In the 18 months in which I lived in the area, I was pulled over 19 times and never ticketed. Just random stops. I was also subjected to repeated verbal harassment regarding my sexuality and lack of interest in the men doing the pulling over. F*** with the lezbo was a common game.

My neighbor, who was black and well off (he'd inherited his house and saw no reason to move at the time) drove a nice car. He, too, was pulled over at least once a month and made to stand on the sidewalk while the cops played humiliate the uppity n*****.

I know there are good cops out there. I've dealt with many of them. I also know there are power-trippers who think that community police work is paramilitary. THOSE are the ones I fear.

[Jamison]

42. Age is also a factor too.

Is the driver under age 25? +7

[Warren DeMontague]

28. I would put "both"... but cops DO have dangerous jobs.

I don't think routine traffic stops turn into violent blood-baths on the part of cops under normal circumstances. Are there bad cops? Sure.

But one thing some people tend to gloss over is, we NEED cops. We may not need certain laws, like the ones that put granny in prison for smoking reefer to ease her glaucoma, but cops do play a vital function in our society. Cops are the people who prevent that asshole kid with the shaved head and twenty foot tall tires on his truck from running over your Prius because you cut him off in traffic while his girlfriend was in the car.

This is not to say elements of law enforcement culture haven't been out of control and that we don't need serious civilian oversight. This is not to say that racial profiling or other abuse should ever be acceptable or tolerated. We need cops- they just need to be GOOD cops.

And yes, they have a very dangerous job.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. I got pulled over in 1969 for a "tail light".

Fortunately, I pulled into a supermarket parking lot. They frisked me and questioned me about, "where are going", "where are you coming from",etc, then checked with copland by radio on me, my car, etc. One of the twirps kept fondling his gun. When the radio report didn't come in quickly enough, they let me go into the market. The same punk snarled that he'd, "come in and get you" if the report didn't come back spotless. I never wanted to belt someone so bad in my whole life.

Perhaps it was due to my anti-war bumper stickers and, my DD-214 that they inspected that said I was honorably discharged from the marine crotch. Naaaah, they were just protecting the public from the depradations of a possibly malfunctioning tail light. (It wasn't).

Funny how many cops there were around colleges in those days heroically doing their duty.

[undeterred]

38. Neither should be afraid.

[seabeyond]

41. with my mouth, wink

but then i have such a brite smile all the while, lol

neither

[sendero]

43. While...

... I think the cop definitely has to be on his guard, they never know what they are going to encounter... however, how many folks here haven't had a bad experience with a cop?

Most cops are good people trying to do a difficult job, but many are simply PRICKS. My very first experience with a cop was very negative, the asshole accused me of being liar, I wasn't lying. It tainted the way I viewed policemen for a long time.

In my experience, in large cities the cops are a lot more professional. Its the small town cops who seem to often be jerks on a power trip with something to prove.

[mcscajun]

47. The cop. Absolutely. That's why many municipalities

have instituted the two-car rule. One car can pull the offending or suspect vehicle over, but the officer does not get out of the car until the second car arrives for backup.

[lectrobyte]

48. If only I had saved the video clip of the cop shooting the guys dog.

I've been trying to get the screams of that tasered woman out of my head all day.

[sweetheart]

54. Lets see, cops have pulling guns on me

with traffic stops. I don't even own a gun, nor have i ever. Who
should be more afraid, the motorist of course. Cops are dangerous
people who you need to be very wary of, because they kill people
regularly. Perhaps if i had not had guns pulled and aimed at me
multiple times for no threat, no argument no nothing... i might
feel different. Perhaps in a new world, i'd just be tazered for
getting my license and reg... yet the memory of a gun barrel
unholstered with the black hole pointed towards one is never forgotten.

[NMMNG]

56. It depends

There are so many factors involved, race, location, environment, background of both parties, etc. While the police are there to "serve and protect" they are not above lying or using inappropriate means to do their job. And, of course, citizens present a danger to police either intentionally or unintentionally.


I recently saw on tv a situation where a burly cop picked a petite woman a good four feet off the ground, then slammed her onto the concrete. He claimed that she nipped his arm with her side mirror while backing up (this part was not shown in the video presented on the show) but if she did it certainly didn't hurt him badly as he used both arms to heave her up and then down.

I've also seen videos where police have been shot, beaten or run over by vehicles in the line of duty.


So, I couldn't answer either way in the poll.



:shrug:

[RPM]

61. Both parties.

that's why everyone needs to cool out during traffic stops.

[UdoKier]

62. I acciddentally clicked "motorist".

The cop is in more danger. Very few motorists who cooperate and behave in a dane manner are ever hurt in any way.