Maybe Dean's onto something here

[Burma Jones]

If we make the same sort of statements about our adversaries as they make about us, well, at first people are going to be shocked - in much the same way a bully is shocked when the victim punches back.

However, as the pukes have taught us well, a lie will seem outrageous at first, but the more you tell it, the more plausable it becomes. And Dean ain't even lying. All we have to do is keep saying what he's saying and eventually it will become conventional wisdom....

You have to remember that Reagan was considered and portrayed in the media to be at least as "nutty" as Dean is being made out to be now. But Reagan's message was repeated and repeated and repeated until it became conventional wisdom....

And for our fellow Dems that are slinging very public arrows at Dean, all I can say is that they need to get over their Stockholm Syndrome and kick some ass......

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Yes he is onto somethign

I have used stronger language in the past, Hell I have called them Nazis

You know repukes are shocked to hear the language, most recoil in horror, but some of them are now asking why I call them Nazis... just as Malloy does and others do

So Dean is now using MY language in the public sphere

I suspect my language is quite broadly used, well except by the pansies in DC who NEED to get over their stockholm syndrome... they exhibit all the signs and it truly started... after the antrax debacle

[Pacifist Patriot]

7. I have shocked several people by insisting on referring to the

Bush administration and their PNAC backers as fascist opportunists. But it certainly got a discussion going.

"I don't agree with Bush." generally earns me a shrug. "I think Bush is a fascist." earns a "What?! Why would you say something like that?" And I am oh so happy to tell them.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. Yep

I call them that myself. Neocon Nazi's. Hey if the shoe fits...

[alfredo]

54. Tell them to find Mussolini's definition of Fascism. He should

know what it is.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

The first paragraph reminds me of something Richard Perle said.

If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war... our children will sing great songs about us years from now. -Richard Perle


From the first paragraph:

War alone brings up to their highest tension all human energies and imposes the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to make it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. I see no reason why we cannot adopt their tone and retain our

ethics. I agree. Let's see what this tactic does before we blast it.

[whistle]

3. Dean is not lying, it is an absolute fact that the republican party...

...power base is a bunch of white Christians, mostly men. The voting constituency is also made up of primarily white Christians. That's a fact!

[Burma Jones]

5. That's why I said "And Dean ain't even lying"...n/t

[Jersey Ginny]

39. The more I think about it the more I think dems should echo Dean

It's enough of the truth and its uncomfortable to the Pukes. They can't deny the facts which are clear. Repukes are mostly a white male christian party will put them on the defensive eventually. Like the conservatives effectively did with the word "liberal" by linking it with "elite" urbanites. I'm going to echo this one!

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ravenseye]

4. That's all well and good

but you gotta do it in a certain way.

Don't say that the republican party is the party of white christians. They'll bring forward a jewish republican the same day to say 'news to me'.

They painted liberal as a bad name, the democrats weak on defense, etc. We need to paint them with a similiar brush not stupid insults that dont' stick.

The Republican party is irresponsible (with your money, with the countries future, with our relations with other countries)

The Republican party is radical (with social liberties, with rights, and cultural stances)

The Republican party is are corrupt (in bed with big business)

If you consider yourself a republican, consider it again, it's not your father's republican party. They'd have driven Nixon out for being a liberal.

Stuff like that.

[Burma Jones]

9. All Good - it's going to take some time to find the right messages..

[Ravenseye]

12. Start throwing, sooner or later something will stick

the truth has a tendency to do that if thrown with enough accuracy and force.

[Burma Jones]

13. Hell - It doesn't even have to be true.....

But truth is on our side........

[Ravenseye]

15. Exactly, use the Truth

We don't NEED to say truthfull things, but we CAN. So why not?

Why make stuff up when the truth is just as powerfull?

[Burma Jones]

17. Yep

Speaking as a white male Hetero Protestant, the pukes ain't my party.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Republicans are Neo Nazis

they will parade the Jews too... doesn't that remind yuo of somthing though? (Stay with me here... Warsaw... when the ICRC went to visit the Jews looked content and happy and had a full bowl of soup)

[Ravenseye]

14. No

That won't win anyone over.

I think about my in-laws who are Bushies even though they're actually liberal. They are pro-gay rights, just went to visit France, etc.

YOu say crap like that and they turn off and it makes it harder to win them over. It's just not true either. There are plenty of Jews in power positions with the Republican party. Because it's NOT a christian party. If it were why aren't they putting in laws right now to ban all that horrid stuff they were selling to their 'base'?

The fact is it's a corporate party that uses a christian base to stay in power by feeding them nuggets once in a while and spreading disinformation.

Comparing them to Nazi's doesn't work and is innacurate and comparing what the Nazi's did by parading the Jews in the Ghetto to a Jewish Republican on television is just stupid. The only comparrison there shows how the republicans AREN'T nazi's.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. When they open the camps will talk

oh they have.

And I am Jewish... I am aware what Perle and Wolfowitz are... Capos...very rich capos

Oh and will it turn some folks off, absolutely, SHOW THEM the role of the bush family in WW II... I mean Josepth, I mean Aushwitz.

Oh but this is trumped up, you assholes learn some history.

I am tired of people not willing to break the china... to get new china.

[Ravenseye]

19. You're in no danger

I am. I'm arab.

But comparing Gitmo to a Nazi camp...Look we're heading in a bad direction, but we're not there yet and if we keep working we never will be.

The point i'm making though is even if they WERE that bad, calling them Nazi's wouldn't work. It'll turn off people's ears and minds and that won't do any good.

WE need to win people over with the truth not bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I beg to differ... Gitmo IS Bergen Belsen in many ways

The comparson to how Bergen Belsen was run and tolerated is very similar to what is going on with GITMO. This time around there has been more resistance, not much, but more resistance

this time around Jews are not first in the list, jsut a close second.. thanks to the visions of the end of days, when only what is it 50,000 who convert will be alive at the second comming? What do you think happens to the rest? Yes that is part of what the Republican white christian base belives in... so exactly how I am not in danger? Good to see yuo are paranoid, oh wait you are not they are coming out to get yah, but the same applies to me.. just later.

Oh and by the way... I have done all I can about GITMO, you see unlike some people that never again applies to everybody.

[Ravenseye]

22. It does apply to everybody

But you'll find most people in this country don't give a shit about Arabs. It's frustrating. They don't care. We're all guilty and evil apparently. I never got the memo.

Look. Gitmo = Bad. Just because that's the case doesn't make it freaking Bergen Belsen. Is it wrong? Yes. Should they be tried or released? Yes.

I don't see Jew's as being a close second after they kill all us arabs, but hey, I welcome my semitic brothers and sisters. I also don't see the Republicans as being as white christian controlled as it's been played up. They're a corporate party, not a christian party. They just feed their christian supporters little nibbles to keep them voting.

What have you done about Gitmo? Have you really done all you can?

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. you got mail

[Ravenseye]

28. Damnit!

I hate AOL. I see that and I hear that AOL voice. Why does my brain waste cells on that stupid voice.

Reading.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. And you want to do that by being nice?

Being nice didn't get you anything. Do you think the Kennedy's were nice to republicans? I don't think so. I'm not going to sit down and have a cup of tea and talk politics with them.

[walkon]

23. The Bush Gang

are neo-fascists, not Nazi. They have successfully commandeered the Republican Party. Fascism has little to do with jews but it muat have scapegoats to unite the base and put fear into everyone else. If you don't think those people in gitmo aren't their jews then what is it about. Be afraid of those dark, mad Muslims - but trust us, we know how to deal with THEM.

[Ravenseye]

24. Fascists? Yeah probably

The way they're operating it is pretty close to the corporate vest and other hallmarks. Even with that though, using Nazi, or Fascist will just turn people's minds off and they'll think you're wearing a tinfoil hat. We need to convince people and screaming Fascist won't do it. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.

I'm in this to win folks. If we want to take america back we're not going to do it by saying nazi or fascist. Period.

The people in gitmo are there for one simple reason. The goverment collected most of them from Afghanistan. All of them they consider people who if they release now will just go back to try and harm american soliders again. They consider them POW's. It's internally consistent logic and doesn't have to have a nefarious plot behind it.

The average person sees the people in Gitmo as people who if released might make their way to america, strap a bomb to their chest, and walk into their grocery store. Whether or not it's accurate like that doesn't matter.

The government isn't packing away arabs and muslims simply because they are so, they're putting people away because they consider them threats to the country and our soliders and that they are POW's. That's not a "Nazi" thing.

Are they POW's? Some. Do they deserve fair hearings and trials and the like? Definately.

We need to win our country back and using name calling, particularly the words Nazi, and FAscist just turn people off. Whether or not you think it's true or not, when you use those words you're hurting the liberal side.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Are they treated under the auspices of the Geneva Convention

No, not according to the ICRC...

But thanks for playing

[Ravenseye]

29. It's part of the stupidity of the administration

They're arrogant, crude, and disrespectfull. Did you read that story about them not allowing the french jets to land when they were low on fuel at the air base and they almost had to ditch?

Yeah there are problems. It should be open. They should have visitors from the red crescent. Heck. Al-Jazeera should be allowed to go there and film all they want.

Not going to happen with this administration. Not because they're nazi's but because they're overly-optimistic-arrogant...you get my point.

I don't think they're doing it to be 'evil'. I think they're doing it because they honestly, and wrongly, think that no abuse will really happen, the stuff that happened has been overblown and is fine, and it's the best course they can take, and no foreign body should bea ble to tell the U.S. What to do.

Optimism, tied with Arrogance, tied with Ignorance.

A dangerous combination, but Nazi's?

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I will remind yuo

1928 editorial referring to Nazis as nothign more dangerous than overtly agresive Boy Scouts

Now they have declared these people Enemy Combatants, not POWs... They have denied them basic rights... under the laws of land warfare. The trials they have proposed for these people DO NOT meet minimum International Standards

According to the ICRC some of them have even been driven to insanity wiht no care and suicide attemps are higher than even in the worst of American prisons

The location is no accident either as Guantamo itself is NOT part of US Territory... we try to pay rent to Cuba that has so far refused to cash the checks.

[Ravenseye]

34. Wrong

Castro cashed one check. :)

I understand what you're saying. I'm not disagreeing with you other than the one check thing.

It still doesn't make them Nazi's and the 1928 editorial thing is irrelevant.

The point is CALLING them Nazi's, whether or not they are, or even calling them Fascists, isn't going to win anybody over. NObody. Period. YOu do damage to your side of the argument. You can convince people of the truth, but not if you sling about words that automatically make people shut down their minds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. You go your pansy way

I will go my way, calling Libearals amoral should not have worked either and closed people's minds

Alas we are now amoral unamerican freaks... tough shit next case, sling and sling and sling, repeat, repat, repeat, repeat, repat, it will stick someday

Oh and the editorial is very relevant right now, as you are DISMISING THEM, not fully, but you are

[FreedomAngel82]

49. Bush's grandfather

supported Nazi's so wouldn't you call him a Nazi and Bush is following in his footsteps. That's pretty clear.

[NYCGirl]

27. What part of "pretty much a White Christian party" didn't that

non-Christian republican understand? "Pretty much" doesn't mean the same as "completely." Either that guy didn't ever hear the statement in context, or he's just jonesing after his name in the paper.

[Ravenseye]

30. Even That Is Too Much

I always think of my father in law and how he'd respond.

"The Republican Party is pretty much a white christian party" and he'd probably smile at my ignorance and say "OH Ravenseye, there are PLENTY of non-christians in the party."

Though he wouldn't say Ravenseye. He'd say my real name. Not my superhero name.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. so you are afraid to frame republicans

that never stopped them...

You will need to break some china in order to change things

There is this old saying, Lead, follow or get out of the way.

Dean if leading and I will follow, you are free to get out of the way... and yes will it get that reaction from your parents in teh begining? Ok fine... it is called a bully being hit back.

[Ravenseye]

33. No it isn't

It's not a bully being hit back it's a bully laughing at a pathetic attempt to hit him. very very different.

You want to hit the bully, I fully aplaud you doing do, but right now your're 2 feet shorter and swinging at air while he holds his hand on your head and laughs with everyone else standing around laughing as well.

Try hitting in the truth region not the generalist region.

By the way, we're liberals and democrats here. Lead, Follow, or Get out of the way sounds alot like Republican inclusion.

I think you're doing something wrong, and I think Dean is doing something wrong so i'm going to voice my opinion and not get out of the way, thank you very much.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. ok don't get out of the way

I don't care, I will continue to call them what they are, dean is just behind the power curve

What the fuck is worng with people? We need to accomodate these mother fuckers while they destroy the country. Funny, I have Repukes now asking questions about Fascsism, yes they did recoil, now even themselves are calling them fascists, and leaving the party... so do tell me it does not work again, please

Oh and they are asking, why is it that the Demo leadership is NOT calling them as it is... talking from experience here, but fuck it, don't break any china

[Mythsaje]

43. Heck

there are even pagans in the Republican Party. Poor, deluded folks they are.

[Lugnut]

38. You're right but

Once Dr. Dean gets the attention of the MSM he's saying those things.

[mzmolly]

6. "I have never given anyone hell. I just tell the truth, and

the Republicans THINK it's hell!"

[WilliamPitt]

8. Read PA's take

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3814704

[havocmom]

10. Lauded, applauded & recommended

:woohoo: :applause: :patriot: :yourock:

[Burma Jones]

35. Thank You

[Lone_Wolf]

16. If you know your oppenents next move.... take advantage of it...

Dean knows that the MS is going to a take mildly controversial statement and blow it all out of proportion. The other Dems (Biden/Richardson/Edwards) should be smart enough to realize that the MSM is going to come at them to ask about Dean's "controversial" statement. Instead of attacking what Dean said, they should seize the opportunity and say something like, "Dean has a point. There is something in the RNC platform that appeals to white, fundamentalist Christians. He is also right that they don't embrace diversity outside that group."

They would be telling the truth and they wouldn't be slamming Dean. Further, it would put the Repukes on the defense for a change. The best defense is a good offense.

[SiouxJ]

21. They've been defining us for years and we just sat back

and took it. Now Dean is defining them! He's just pointing out what they are. I think he needs to go further and call them on being the selfish, greedy, heartless, intolerant bastards they are. We need more of this talk, not less.

[LibertyorDeath]

40. Great post " And Dean ain't even lying"

Dean can back up everything he says so fuck em if they can't handle the truth.

[Kazak]

41. Good analogy...

Dean needs to keep these coming.

[Name removed]

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[AngryWhiteLiberal]

45. Hmm...lunch with Zell Miller?

Please explain how Dean is a sell out. He's not Zell Miller, if that's your standard of comparison...and thank god for it.

JB

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[FreedomAngel82]

50. Lunch with Miller?

LOL. You must be soo proud. Please let me puke. :puke:

[Name removed]

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[salin]

56. No offense,

but you lost me with the claim that Hillary would run with Newt as a vice president.

Had you suggested a very very moderate/centrist southern politician I might have believed it. But those who think she would run with a conspirator of prolonging the whole Starr fishing expedition... they may be shooting off their mouths - but they aren't talking reality.

[lonestarnot]

42. you mean like STOP THE WAR OF LIES NOW BASTARDS?

[travisbailey]

48. good point

good point