FWIW, I think Plaid Adder nailed it re: Dean

[WilliamPitt]

I put something up about Dean's comments and his critics yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3814848

...but then read PA's take:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3814704

If you haven't read that yet, read it now. She nailed it to the door, and I was wrong.

[truebrit71]

1. You are correct. Plaid is right, and you were wrong.

We have tried the old way and it didn't work, time for something and someone new...

Kudos for being forthright and open about your error.

[Demit]

2. Neat! I know when I read her take, i got a shock of recognition

It just really resonated, right away, and I know I'm behind Dean 1000%!

[KoKo]

3. and, here's another DU'ers view that goes nicely with Plaid's comments:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1842030

[KoKo]

5. Wow! even another great comment by a DU'er with more insight on Dean!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3820227

[seemslikeadream]

14. YOU KNOW YOU WANT HIM

[sniffa]

4. in your face, pitt!

i read both (you and p.a.) yesterday and have been cribbing from both to try to keep the franken freaks caLm - many of them are former repubs or moderate dems and they spook easy.

[DemNoir]

6. Sadly the ones that really need to get it,aren't

Will our cowardly Democratic "leaders" ever see that? I have lost hope.

The public can smell fear and it turns them off. Unless a miracle of enlightenment takes place we will be a permanent minority party.

[sandnsea]

7. The question was already planted

And planted correctly. The Republican Party is being taken over by radical fundamentalist extremists, a bunch of ideologues who want to stack the court with their crazy agenda of keeping women from getting birth control pills, stopping stem cell research, interfering in personal decisions.

What are we talking about now? The nice Republican Christians.

Nope, Dean fucked up. We were doing great and keeping important issues, ISSUES, in the news. This is back to the aimless leftwing Bush bashing from last year that got us nowhere.

[bpilgrim]

9. lol

"This is back to the aimless leftwing Bush bashing from last year that got us nowhere."

Here WE are!

as we grow you won't here nutt'n but BANG'n on the TABLE all across this GREAT land of OURS :bounce:

peace

[sandnsea]

10. ROTFLMAO

NO we aren't, not anywhere near.

Did we pick up seats last year? Did we win the White House? NO.

Has the left been relatively quiet THIS year? Are people finally trusting the Democrats again? YES.

We don't need the mumblings of the Liebermans. We also don't need the rantings of the far left. We had hit a nice stride. This is just a blip, but a week that should have been filled with extremist judges and Bolton spying on US citizens and Bush veto threats of stem cell research has been taken up with a pointless comment from Dean. If he'd said something that made a point, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It was absolutely pointless, and contradicts everything he says he's been trying to do for 6 months. That's my problem with it, not the headlines or the rankor. It was just pointless.

BTW, the same thing happened with his MTP appearance. A week that should have been about all the good things he said on the Dem agenda was over-shadowed with idiotic comments about hating Republicans. Pointless.

[KoKo]

12. We had hit "a nice stride?" You've gotta be kidding? Ruckus is needed

we better do it now. No more going gently into the ABB dark night.

[sandnsea]

18. Unbelievable

The polls are all in our favor, the Republicans are sinking like rocks, and you can't even see it. Chronic malcontents. Dean isn't even saying anything and because somebody's mad for some reason somewhere, you people are happy. It's completely psychotic.

[KoKo]

20. Read Podvin's article....it will explain alot about why some of us

think it's important to "ruckus."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1842712

[sandnsea]

29. You've been ruckusing for 3 years

How's that been workin out for ya?

Maybe it's time for some grown-up debates and focused attacks.

[DireStrike]

36. Yes, WE have been ruckusing

We, the common people. And now somebody who matters, somebody in a position to be seen, somebody the media CANNOT SIMPLY IGNORE is going with us.

Dean is NOT more of the same. What we had was unfocused discontent, and a candidate not on the same page with any of it. We had no voice and no representative, and the biggest coverage we ever got was the 5 minute protest coverage. Our leadership has not been leading. It has not harnessed any of this.

Who was doing this before? Michael Moore? Anybody else notable? Anybody with actual influence? Anybody who couldn't be written off as a braindead hollywood celeb? No. Nobody.

Focused attacks? Do you remember the last few months before the election? It was point after point hammered in by Kerry and the establishment dems, unfailingly and perfectly. IT. DIDN'T. WORK.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

38. You mean

like the grown-up debates Kerry had? You mean the nice polite cower in the corner when there was screams of vote fraud like our PRESIDENTIAL Candidates did. Well.....how'd that work out for you?

Wait...I know Bush is still president!

[stickdog]

42. Then we all shut up and got behind Kerry. How did THAT work out?

Oh wait now, I remember. He LOST to the WORST PRESIDENT IS US HISTORY!

Thanks for the "sage" advice, sandy, but been there, done that.

[sandnsea]

43. No, you ranted your way through last year

I've just been through a bunch of liberal blogs and saw it for myself. I should have paid more attention last year. I thought people knew how important it was to lay out an agenda, but I guess not. About 80% of what I found was articles and rants against Bush. No wonder the exit polls said that Kerry attacked more than Bush did.

Somewhere along the line the left is going to have to accept that there is a huge population in this country that would be more than happy to end all social programs, all regulation, and use the military any time any country blinks at us sideways. They really exist and they're really organized and able to influence that handful of people who don't pay attention. The only way to woo that handful to your side is to give them a better idea. All the left thought they had to do was say "Bush is such an idiot". Didn't work then, won't work now. Been there, done that.

[stickdog]

44. So liberal internet blogs lost Kerry's Presidential campaign for him?

Is that your final answer? :eyes:

[sandnsea]

45. See there?

Not helpful. Not even the point. You just said it to make yourself feel better. So what.

[stickdog]

50. Umm, really? So what was your point again?

... other than advising us how to LOSE again ...

[bpilgrim]

21. "NO we aren't, not anywhere near." - we're working on it...

psst... pass the word :toast:

"We also don't need the rantings of the far left."

what you think got the story this far or DU for that matter? I say we need them DESPERATELY.

"This is just a blip, but a week that should have been filled with extremist judges and Bolton spying on US citizens and Bush veto threats of stem cell research has been taken up with a pointless comment from Dean."

DSM-Bush-Blair.mp3
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/DSM/DSM-Bush-Blair.mp3

other BIG things happening ;->

"It was just pointless."

good cop -n- bad cop + lots of press time
though we need to clue our leaders in not to criticize other Dem's via the M$MWs and FRAME THE DEBATE ;->

"Dem agenda was over-shadowed with idiotic comments about hating Republicans"

must be clear that it is the LEADERSHIP i.e. the neoCONs when expressing our outrage, good point :toast:

:hi:

peace

[tavalon]

32. So, what pray tell

would you like us to be louder about as your sig line suggests? Dean is being louder and is getting our issues lots of face time. When he's brought on all of these talk shows, they try to bait him but he just puts out the Democratic talking points. In a very polished manner, may I add.

[sandnsea]

41. Not meaner, not ruder, not nastier,

Just... LOUDER.

Targeted, focused, factual. Issues and policies. Focused on BUSH.

LOUDER.

Not stupider and all I've seen this week is massive stupidity.

[tavalon]

47. Have you seen any of the follow up interviews Dean has done

I've seen a couple and even though they try to bait him, he calmly explains the democratic point of view about things. He deflects them and stays on the democratic talking points. He is doing great, IMO.

[sandnsea]

51. That's my point

I never said Dean didn't have the ability to do that. I think it is in this thread that I said that's exactly what I expected Dean to do as chair. I hoped he would and supported him for chair for that reason. I only hoped the stupid comments wouldn't overshadow his ability to articulate Dem policies. So far, the only sound bytes we've gotten are the stupid ones. And they don't even relate to a particular issue, so they don't help highlight anything either. If he's going to say something wild, he should do it like Galloway did. There was absolutely no doubt about what his gripes were.

Mostly, I really wish Dean people would admit that their zealous response to incredibly mundane comments by Edwards & Biden are responsible for the hoopla this week.

[KoKo]

13. Meant to tell you b.pilgrim that toon is the BEST. Every time I see it

I get a good laugh and a good feeling! Thanks for keeping it posted.
:yourock:

[bpilgrim]

8. UNITY

you got it :toast:

peace

[RBHam]

11. Howard Dean is your last, best hope...

Apparently, some Democrats can't handle the truth.

[theboss]

17. Oh please...he's not Luke Skywalker

For some reason, arguing about Dean feels like arguing about religion.

[bpilgrim]

22. dig it, he's much higher ranking than Luke

:P

Dr. Dean is reflecting weTHEpeoples OUTRAGE & he (Dem's) will be REWARDED for it, bet.

:hi:

peace

[KoKo]

23. Yes he is! See post # 14 on this thread...can't you see him as Luke?

:evilgrin:

[fla nocount]

28. Hi RB.........long time.

But then I've been on hiatus. DSM and the good Dr. Dean lured me back.

Moderation is what is wrong with this party. Bowing and scraping and dodging anthrax in the mail. Appeasement, boot-licking and compromise. It's past time for a change and perhaps those Dems purportedly distancing themselves are simply playing the veiled roles that they've become so skilled at. Imagine that, a group of Democrats with a plan.

It might pan out that these seeded memes spouted by the good Dr. Dean and the national bruhaha courtesy of the MSM might be timed to bear fruit around 2006.
Wouldn't it be nice to wander about with a bag full of catch-phrases and talking points of our own to throw before us like petals. Also the atrocities of the current administration aren't going to stop and might serve to lend validity to what's being said now.

Many of the targets of Dean's diatribe are indeed homophobic, bible-thumpin fundies who haven't worked an honest day in their life, I for one have made the same observation myself.

[RBHam]

40. Indeed...

The Democrats will compromise themselves into extinction.

[ieoeja]

15. Yes and no.

What Plaid Adder said would be true, if the Democratic spokespersons would followup.


Rep Bob Barr (R-GA) in 1995: "Bill Clinton is a serial rapist who should be impeached."

Each and Every Republican on TV in 1995: "While I may not agree with the exact words used by the congressman, the fact is that Mr Clinton's philandering ways is damaging this country's reputation overseas."


DNC Chairman Dean in 2005: "The Republican Party has become the part of white Christians only."

Democrat on TV in 2005: "What Howard Dean said is inexcusable and he should apologize to the American public immediately."

[jus_the_facts]

31. YOU have nailed it......

...how fucked up is that?!

I've never been a Dean fan but have always thought being politically correct was BULLSHIT!

[hfojvt]

16. I never got an answer to my take on it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3814704&mesg_id=3817959&page=

I have to agree with sandnsea that he could have said something newsworthy that would tie in with the Bolton nomination or the stem cell veto or the Downing Street Memo. Instead he seemed to be attacking white Christians whose votes we would like to get, particularly in places like Kansas, Nebraska, ND, Mo. It does not even play well in Peoria.

[paineinthearse]

19. The dynamics of DU are outstanding

:grouphug:

[KoKo]

24. are you being sarcastic?

:shrug:

[Just Me]

26. I doubt it. Our dynamics really ARE outstanding and exceptional.

:hi:

[Just Me]

25. Dean adds the passion and conviction and integrity,....

,...that our party and our people need.

The rabid repukes treat us like we are wishy-washy weaklings because we have been the party of decency,...and they've kicked our asses.

Dean brings our own fighting spirit back by bringing out our passion and conviction and integrity. If anyone deserves a voice in the matters pertaining to the best interests of our people, IT IS US!!!

[KoKo]

27. nicely said....thank! n/t

[bcoylepa]

30. Dean Machine

Today I was in a coffee shop in the Pennslytucky part of PA ( Bradford County) and the older guy in the booth behind me was reading our local Daily Review Paper and he said to his wife - "This Dean guy says the GOP is a white Christian party - (silence for a minute) - and then he says - he's right about that."
For one brief moment - the sun was shining on the truth and it was impossible to hide!
Good for Dean! Keep it up!

[DearAbby]

33. "This Dean guy says the GOP is a white Christian party -

>>"This Dean guy says the GOP is a white Christian party - (silence for a minute) - and then he says - he's right about that."<<

We all should remember, the night that congress came back on PALM SUNDAY, and voted to intervene on a very private family matter, and the reason that they did so. Remember B*H rushing back from the ranch to sign this bill in the late hours of the night. Pictures should be shown of trailer-hitch Jesus, The Shiavo Affair, and excerpts from JUSTICE SUNDAY, talking points from Dobson, Robertson, Fahwell.

I too agree with the gentleman's comment. Dean is right.

For months, years, people have been mentioning how the Christian faith has been taken over by fundamentalists/Dominionists, and they are mostly white and republican.

The Good Dr, is giving what this country needs, a dose of truth. sometimes medicine is bitter and hard to swallow. But will make you well, if your take it as prescribed.

[DebJ]

39. I went to a Bush rally here in York Pa last year. (puke, cry). My

husband and I commented (rather loudly) about the total whiteness of the 3500 or so there, in our predominantly minority city. A Repub next to us, thinking WE were Repubs, too, said,yes, we need to get more minorities in the party. I said, tell me ONE THING the Republicans can offer to minorities. He stood miserably silent....

on edit: Wonder how this guy I talked to would respond to Dean's comments?

[BiggJawn]

49. "Hey! Didja hear what that Dean guy said?"

"Yeah, what did Rush tell you was bad about it?"

"Well, he said the Republican party is full of White Christian guys!"

"Yes....OK, So you're a Republican, right?"

"Damn straight! I LOVE George Bush!"

"And you go to Church on Sunday?"

"Yep, AND Wednesday night, too! I love JEEEEZHUS more'n Bush!"

"And you're 100% White Murkan, right?"

"Damn right I am!"

"OK, so what exactly did Howard Dean say that was not correct, from YOUR point of view???"

Frame and control the debate.

[DireStrike]

34. Wait, wait, Plaid Adder is a female?!

Oh. I guess that's my first ever DU crush! :loveya:

[valis]

35. I don't think Dean critics don`t get him. They know hes right...

But by admitting he`s right they are bound to lose something (or they think so): short-term personal power, for instance.

[Walt Starr]

37. You're damned skippy there, Will!

:thumbsup:

Your assessment and Plaid Adder's assessment are spot on!

[OrlandoGator]

46. Framing the debate...something he promised he'd do during the campaign.

Remember how Dean would tell people how crucial it was for us to discuss the issues on our terms and not on Rush Limbaugh's? All Dean is doing is following through.

Like PA said, now people are buzzing about whether or not Republicans are the things Dean claimed they were. And the media is unwittingly spreading the message.

Limbaugh and Hannity are playing the quotes, then interjecting how nuts Dean is. But they are the ones being tricked into playing the quotes over and over...and most people are hearing them and saying, "damn, Dean has a good point there."

[Misunderestimator]

48. I agree that she nailed it...

For the first time since November, I feel some positive energy and optimism firing up again... Why? Because of Dean's behavior.