If feminism = equal rights and opportunities for females and males...

[valis]

Why isn't it simply called egalitarianism? This is a serious question, folks. I have no clue why it isn't. If feminism means special privileges for females then I'm NOT a feminist.

[leftofthedial]

1. because that's not what it's really about

Im an egalitarian

[valis]

3. Me too...

[patrice]

2. You are right. Free wymyn will result in free men. n/t

[underpants]

4. moral doctrine that equality ought to prevail throughout society

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

Egalitarianism is the moral doctrine that equality ought to prevail throughout society. One can best understand various types of egalitarianism by asking "Who is supposed to be equal?" and "In what respect are they supposed to be equal?"

The English word is derived from the French word égal meaning equal or level.

Almost all theories of egalitarianism regard humans as the relevant group among whom equality should prevail. However, some versions of utilitarianism, such as Peter Singer's, include animals and maintain that the pleasures and pains of every animal, not only human animals, should count equally in moral deliberation. Singer has defended this view on what he calls the principle of equal consideration of interests. The argument is outlined in his essay "All Animals Are Equal" (http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-m/singer02.htm).

[valis]

5. Yes, I know what it means. How does it differ from feminism?

[Demit]

12. Probably because the philosophers who coined the term weren't really

meaning it to apply to women. Same as our "all men were created equal"--the founders weren't even THINKING of women here; they quite literally meant men. Feminism is tapping egalitarianism on the shoulder and saying "Ahem! Us too, if you don't mind".

[valis]

13. But don't you think that some men would feel uncomfortable

calling themselves "feminists" simply because they are afraid of seeng themselves as girlie men? Even if they are all for equal rights...

[Misunderestimator]

21. Uncomfortable? Any man who is uncomfortable with a term so much

that he would not support the cause... is probably not supporting it in the first place.

I'm pro-choice, yet I don't worry that anyone will think I'm straight (since naturally, it would be kind of hard to accidentally get pregnant). Strange argument...

[valis]

51. I'm a girlie man, and proudly so.

[Misunderestimator]

71. Goodness...that comment is just chock full...

You start a thread pretending that you don't understand what the term feminism means, or why it is an important term. Then you imply that it might insult some men... using the term girlie-men, which all by itself degrades women... then you claim to be a "girlie-man" yourself, again degrading women with the comment.

If you're looking to muddy the waters... you do a pretty good job of it. Not great... but pretty good. Somehow you manage to stick around.

[valis]

85. The term "girlie-man" was coined to degrade men, not women.

By saying I'm proud to be a girlie-man, I'm rejecting the connotation.

[Misunderestimator]

103. No it degrades women, because it assumes equating a man to a woman

as negative thing. It's telling that you buy into that.

[valis]

107. Disagree. The focus is not on "girl" it's on "man": a man who's

something other than what he ought to be. That's why many men find it insulting.

[Name removed]

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[valis]

113. Fine, but the problem is only because you don't have good arguments

Not me stirring shit... besides, this is not the original topic anyway.

[Misunderestimator]

114. LOL... Ok.... That's the problem.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

22. Men who are confident in their masculinity have no problem with feminism

or calling themselves feminists.

[valis]

98. I have no problems calling myself feminist. Words don't bite.

But the origin of words and their meaning fascinates me.

[Demit]

24. I don't know how old you are, but there are men who call themselves

feminists, and have done for a long time. The word feminism has undergone exactly the same now-it's-a-dirty-word evolution that "liberal" has.

LOL! I guess some men flinch from being called names, but that doesn't say much about how manly they are, does it?

[EFerrari]

25. There are many kinds of feminism. But one reason for the label

is when people said "everyone", they meant men. Just as the Declaration of Independence says "all men" but mean white male people in that culture at that time.

[Fleshdancer]

10. so then egalitarianism could be used for all equal rights movements

I wonder why feminism was singled out then.

[valis]

50. No idea.

[Fleshdancer]

6. egalitarianism doesn't sound as cool

:)

I don't know how the term feminism was coined, but I bet some of the books discussing the history of the movement could shed some light. For all I know, the name could have been created from people resistant of the movement or from the media observing and reporting on the events at the time. I have no idea. :shrug:

[valis]

11. Right. But "feminism" is unnecessarily inflammatory...

When you think about it... It does SOUND like it advocates female superiority, which would be as ridiculous as anybody advocating male superiority.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. Only inflammatory

To those who think the idea that women are equal people is outrageous. But those people can kiss my ass anyway, so let them get inflamed about it.

[valis]

54. I don't find it inflammatory. But others do. Even if they agree with the

spirit of the movement...

[alarimer]

18. It is only inflammatory because the fundies have made it so

Just like they have made liberal=commie, etc. Nothing wrong with the term or the philosophy behind it at all. The right has villified feminists (and liberals) for years. The rest of us should not fall into that trap.

[Ripley]

26. That is sexist and it should be removed.

Can you nuance your attacks on feminists any finer?

[Bunny]

31. Notice how it's been brought to GD, now that it can't be brought

to the new Group?

[Ripley]

36. Yes.

Check the Lounge too. I have a feeling it's that time again...I really get tired of this.

[Bunny]

37. I'm just going to ignore it. They are only doing it for attention.

And control. And I'm not gonna hand that over to them!

[Ripley]

43. Let's talk about something else.

I can't wait for the movie "War of the Worlds" to come out! The old one really scared me when I was a kid and you know Spielberg will make it really scary. I just wish he had cast someone other than Cruise to star in it tho. Say Kevin Spacey.

[Bunny]

48. I agree. Kevin Spacey would have been a much better choice.

I've never been big on Tom Cruise, and his behavior lately is just plain scary!

[Ripley]

53. So I hear.

I'm just tired of seeing he same old actor's in every movie that comes out I want to see, which are few these days. Like his ex, Nicole. Damn she was in about 30 movies in the last year! Cast someone else for crying out loud!

[valis]

55. Is Tom Cruise a feminist? Does anyone know?

[DURHAM D]

99. You are kidding aren't you ????? eom

[valis]

115. I don't read tabloids... I know he donates to Dems and he's a nut...

All I know...

[Bunny]

57. Speaking of Nicole, are you looking forward to the new Bewitched

movie? I loved that show as a kid, and I really like Will Farrell. I hope they do a nice job of it.

[valis]

62. YES!

[geniph]

111. He's a freak!

Definitely not a fan of Scientology-Man.

[EFerrari]

27. Well, lol, people did advocate male superiority for a few years there.

:)

[Fleshdancer]

28. I was just joking. the rest of my message throws out actual ideas

As a female, the term feminism doesn't sound like it advocates female superiority at all. Perhaps because the actual word had been bastardized over the years to mean something stupid like "man hating lesbians" by people who are resistant toward the idea that women and men are equals. To be honest, I really don't care what we call it, as long as the battle for equality still lives on. I don't see it as unnecessarily inflammatory but for those who do, why not just use a different word? "Human Rights" is a good suggestion.

[Name removed]

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[valis]

69. Do you know the meaning of conditionals? Pretty basic stuff...

Before you get a heart attack, just remember what conditionals are. They are little Englush words such as "if", allowing the writer to talk about hypothetical scenarios.
When I say "If X means Y then I'm not X" I'm NOT saying that X means Y. Simply that IF it means Y then I'm not X.

If instead of simply focusing on keywords people tried to understand what others are talking about I suspect there world would not be so fucked up.

[libnnc]

76. the fact that you've even asked this question...

tells me all I need to know about you.

*slaps hands*

I'm done with this thread.

[bloom]

77. Sounds like you are saying some people act clueless

to get others riled up.

[geniph]

112. ya think?

;-)

[Misunderestimator]

7. If we started with an egalitarian nirvana, there would be no need for

feminism. Feminism is about recognizing the chasm that does exist, and fighting to achieve equality (while putting the term to the people it applies to, ergo, fem...Women).

Once we get to the goal... we can throw out the term. But we are a LONG way from that.

[progmom]

9. well said

:applause:

[prolesunited]

8. Yes, feminism means special rights for females

Just like gay rights means special rights for homosexuals and lesbians. :eyes:

[Lerkfish]

16. and homerism mean special rights for bald guys who like donuts...

...mmmm...donuts.....



sorry, just had to interject some levity. :)

[valis]

56. I could be a homerist.

[expatriot]

14. I have referred to myself as an "androgynist" for a very long time.....

Someone said, who is a freeper at heart but the most intellectual one I have ever met in my personal life (okay, my brother)... that feminism is to equal rights as militant black nationalism is/was to civil rights. The whole of idea (his logic) that a counter-movement to an injustice, if a reaction to that injustice can be on the OTHER side of "justice." My response (this conversation was years ago) was that the radical counter movement NEEDS to be "on the other side" of justice exactly in order TO balance out the injustice. But that conversation got me thinking about androgynism... and how liberation of ourselves from our psycho-biologically, culturally-entrenched "sexual division of labor" so to speak is a liberation movement not only for womyn but also for men.... enter the whole "getting in touch with your feminine side" and not being afraid to express your emotions and admit your dependencies and share both the domestic and professional load with your mate, etc.

Yes, "feminist liberation" only tells half the story.. it is better told as "androgynist liberation."

[bloom]

15. I think part of the implication

is that women do not have equal opportunities or whatever now.

For instance here you have the basic defintion followed by much more explanation:

fem·i·nism (f?m'?-n?z'?m)
n.
Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
The movement organized around this belief.

feminism, movement for the political, social, and educational equality of women with men; the movement has occurred mainly in Europe and the United States. It has its roots in the humanism of the 18th cent. and in the Industrial Revolution. Feminist issues range from access to employment, education, child care, contraception, and abortion, to equality in the workplace, changing family roles, redress for sexual harassment in the workplace, and the need for equal political representation.

For the political aspects of feminism, see woman suffrage.

History

Women traditionally had been regarded as inferior to men physically and intellectually. Both law and theology had ordered their subjection. Women could not possess property in their own names, engage in business, or control the disposal of their children or even of their own persons. Although Mary Astell and others had pleaded earlier for larger opportunities for women, the first feminist document was Mary Wollstonecraft's Vindication of the Rights of Women (1792). In the French Revolution, women's republican clubs demanded that liberty, equality, and fraternity be applied regardless of sex, but this movement was extinguished for the time by the Code Napoléon.

In North America, although Abigail Adams and Mercy Otis Warren pressed for the inclusion of women's emancipation in the Constitution, the feminist movement really dates from 1848, when Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Coffin Mott, and others, in a women's convention at Seneca Falls, N.Y., issued a declaration of independence for women, demanding full legal equality, full educational and commercial opportunity, equal compensation, the right to collect wages, and the right to vote. Led by Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan Brownell Anthony, the movement spread rapidly and soon extended to Europe.

Little by little, women's demands for higher education, entrance into trades and professions, married women's rights to property, and the right to vote were conceded. In the United States after woman suffrage was won in 1920, women were divided on the question of equal standing with men (advocated by the National Woman's party) versus some protective legislation; various forms of protective legislation had been enacted in the 19th cent., e.g., limiting the number of hours women could work per week and excluding women from certain high-risk occupations.<more>

http://www.answers.com/feminism

-----

I was looking at how masulinist is described on Wikipedia yesterday - and part of their idea is that they are treated less than equal (at least in some areas) :

Masculist observations

Masculists cite many instances of what they see as anti-male discrimination. Their claims include legislation viewed as one-sided, selective enforcement, and neglected civil rights including:

•child custody strongly favoring mothers; belief that children grow better with the mothers only

•some men being incarcerated for the inability to pay unrealistic child support payments

•children aborted or given up for adoption without fathers' consent <more>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinist

[Name removed]

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[valis]

61. Not subtle either :)

[Blue-Jay]

80. Not subtle, but not wholly inaccurate either.

Wouldn't you say?

[valis]

92. Completely inaccurate, actually.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. The rule says...

Whoever can't smell it, dealt it.

[valis]

74. Of course, there could be nothing to start with.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

78. exactamundo!

[valis]

86. Heh, subtlety is not that common around here....

[Bunny]

90. No, it's not very subtle at all, is it?

Hmmm...

[Name removed]

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[valis]

102. Show me a peer-reviewed paper demonstrating that and I'll believe you.

[Bunny]

104. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

C'mon Kathy - find that peer-reviewed Fart Paper, would ya???

:rofl:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

106. the peer smell test and human nature

by Dr. Farticus

[Bunny]

108. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

He really introduced some new paradigms in that one, didn't he?

:rofl:

[valis]

109. Again, lotsa talk, but no proof...

Why? Why cannot you back up your statements, given that you feel so strongly about them?

[Bunny]

116. My my. SO impatient!

Didn't I say I'd get right on that? Meanwhile, why don't you read the Fart Dissertation?

[valis]

117. Where? I only read peer-reviewed papers. The rest is junk.

[Bunny]

118. Picky picky picky.

[valis]

120. Only way to stay close to the TRUTH, instead of drowning in gossip

[LoZoccolo]

60. I smell the Biscuit Boy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1840184

[BrklynLiberal]

20. When women get the same pay for doing the same job as a man

I will stop using Feminism, and start using Egalitarianism.

When women have the final say over the health decisions concerning their bodies, I will stop using Feminism, and start using Egalitarianism.

When women have equal access to birth control as men have to penile function enhancement drugs I will stop using Feminism, and start using Equalitarianism.

When women can vote worldwide, and drive cars, walk in public uncovered, and not be killed for crimes for which men are forgiven, I will stop using Feminism, and start using Egalitarianism.

[HereSince1628]

23. Well, Feminism is (historically and in part) oppostion to the way

men (the patriarchy) treated them. In many ways this comes down to fair treatment. But that phrase hides the breadth of the issues.

You can read their grievances on the memorial wall in Seneca Falls, New York at the National Park for Women.

Early Feminist causes included:

the right to vote

the right to own/sell property

temperance (perhaps to prevent physical abuse by drunken men)

humane treatment of animals (perhaps because women identified in the
mistreatment of animal their own abuse at the hands of men)

universal education (until after 1900 girls were often denied education)

introduction of a compassionate God in American religious belief.

and more.

[MisterP]

34. Susan Faludi's excellent works mirror your post: I highly recommend

them

[Bunny]

35. History shows that, for individuals,

fear of women's equality is directly related to the size of the male genitalia.

[prolesunited]

42. I have heard that theory

It bears as much weight as the term feminism is inflamatory and feminists believe in female superiority.

So, if you believe these things... well, we do have some idea of how "manly" that person really is. ;-)

[One_Life_To_Give]

52. Inversly direct I hope

fear of women's equality is directly related to the size of the male genitalia.

As I look down my pants to figure out what my opinion is. And wondering if I am up to giving this issue the full measure it deserves.

[valis]

59. Are you saying that men with larger genitalia are more scared?

I've never seen such research published. But perhaps you have a link. Thanks.

[jpgray]

63. I think she means that the relation is an inverse proportion (nt)

[valis]

64. Oh, so, smaller genitalia = more scared...

Possible... But some men really don't care much about their genitalia...

[Bunny]

65. Link? Oh, I've got hundreds of them.

I'll get right on that.

[valis]

66. Just one, showing some good research (I mean, DATA).

[Bunny]

68. Okay. I'll get right on that.

Wait right here - don't leave.

[valis]

70. Not leaving... I'm a good person.

[Bunny]

72. Okay.

Just wait right here...

[valis]

89. I suspect you've got no links...

:shrug:

[Bunny]

91. No seriously. Wait right here.

Don't go away...

[valis]

93. It's OK, I have a bot who notifies me of new posts.

[Bunny]

95. Okay, well make sure you keep that bot on Standby.

[valis]

96. Definitely. Sorry that behind all the talk there is no actual DATA...

People should learn that when they cannot back up their statements they should not make them in the first place...

[Bunny]

101. Oh? Is THAT how that works???

I did not know that!

[bloom]

40. Being a feminist

as opposed to being a masculinist:

"For men, we embrace a masculine spirituality. We believe God created men to be men without apology. We believe that Biblical masculinity is necessary for the church to be the overcoming organism God intends for it to be. Therefore we avoid the feminization of men and the spiritual emasculation of God’s rowdy warriors that usually accompanies most evangelical churches."

http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2004/10/30.html



Feminists are NOT saying we expect everyone to be feminine or to have a feminine spirituality. Or that we need to rule the world through feminism or some other rot like this masculinist says.

Feminists don't care if women act masculine or feminine - nor do they care if men act more masculine or feminine. That doesn't matter.

People like this guy want a really clear definition and really clear roles - which translate into women being "put in their place" - which is below men.

[jpgray]

41. There are feminists and feminists

There isn't one definition everyone will agree to. That said, feminism at its core is in my mind a quest for gender equality. However, a part of feminism in my view is appreciation for the female gender and a celebration of what it means to -be- female. One can do both of those without claiming females are superior to males.

[valis]

47. This makes sense....

[Cleita]

73. Because many "egalitarians" don't think women

are equal to them, therefore, women have to stand up and demand their rights like any other group treated as inferiors.

[valis]

75. Then they are FAKE egalitarians. I'd spit in their face.

[Cleita]

83. Drink lots of water then and spit all over the Republican

Party including the women. None of them think women are equal to the men. All their issues surround keeping women down and under the thumb of men. All the pro-life, family values talk is about keeping women in their place. All the talk about abstinence until marriage is for the girls. Don't think the men are held to the same standards. I know because I lived in the fifties, where they want to take us back to.

[valis]

87. Never heard of that... Any official stats on Repug women and feminism?

[Cleita]

105. I don't think there is a list per se but unless you have been

living in a cave, there is the matters of Priscilla Owens and Janice Brown well documented on the NOW site. Ann Coulter says women should never have gotten the vote. I really can't recall all the miscreants right now, but do you think our present First Lady is a feminist or an enabling meek wife, the Republican ideal?

[valis]

122. Ok, I know that there are examples of Repub women acting anti-feminist

But I'm looking for serious surveys, with objective data. I'll look on the NOW site. Thanks.

[Iris]

79. I love this! Why hasn't anyone ever brought this up before?

I used to say I'm a "person-ist" but that just didn't cut it.

perfect, perfect, perfect.

[valis]

81. I'm glad you appreciate it. Others here just get mad for no reason..

[Iris]

88. A lot of people come here love to be pissed off.

I've been away for a while and that's what I've noticed when I came back. There are plenty of people out there who are ready to take offense at EVERYTHING.

I think we should also start using the terms "broad-minded" or "open-minded" or, damn, even "open to other ideas or suggestions" instead of "liberal" and "progressive."

[valis]

94. Iris, I'll put you in my buddy list! Glad to have met you!

The level of dumb defensiveness around these days is just ridiculous. People just look for keywords and when there is one they switch off their brain and start screaming... Pathetic...

[MissB]

82. No, it isn't a serious question.

It is flamebait.

[jpgray]

84. I think it's both

It's an all too common misinterpretation of "feminism" to equate it with a sexist ideology. One can celebrate the unique attributes of a thing without declaring it superior to something else.

[Lorien]

97. I agree n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

119. Well, young one, let me expand on this subject a little. The whole

feminists thing is beyond 'equal rights'. In the late 60's and early 70's, women became feminists to step out of the shadows. We began to find others with whom we could discuss our feelings and goals. No one had asked stay-at-home mothers of small children what it was like..to not have a conversation with another adult for 12 to 14 hours at a time; what it took to balance all the demands placed on her, driving the kids, scheduling the entire family's appointments, shopping, balancing the check book, taking care of family illness, and on and on.

At the time, women already had the right to vote, but there were two sets of standards in just about everything. Jobs were advertised as those for 'men' and those for 'women'. It was perfectly legal to fire a woman when she became pregnant (I was told that 'we don't want the customers to see you in that condition'.) When I was in pre-vet at Ohio State as an honor student, scholarship winner, and on the dean's list, I was told that it did not matter what my grades were, I had to be in the top 3% to even apply for vet school!

The feminist movement was about women, of all colors and life styles, coming together to find their voice. To build up their own self-esteem. To learn that there is very little that a woman cannot accomplish as well as, or better, than a man. To discuss what made us different from our male counterparts. To find our true strengths.

As a single mother, in my corporation, I was always referred to as the first woman to be a _____ in the region. I entered conferences where I was the only female in 500 to 600 people. And yet, the corporate guidelines said my salary had to be 20% less since I wasn't 'supporting a family'!

A feminist is someone who believes women are people too!

[valis]

121. Great post! Please read below

I was too little in the 70's to know... But among my friends in their 20s and 30s, I'm not sure anybody does not believe women are people too... So, the post was about whether the meaning of "feminism" has changed, relative to the times when it was created. I only know some people who have no problem believing women are people too, but nonetheless feel uncomfortable with the "feminist" label...

[Moderator]

123. If feminism = equal rights and opportunities for females and males...

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