My letter to a Bush supporter...

[MojoXN]

I wrote this letter to my mother's Bushite boyfriend. He and I get along great. He's an otherwise brilliant man, a research scientist who is one of the most honest, decent people that I have ever met. But his mind has been poisoned by the rhetoric from across the aisle. From our many conversations, I have discerned that he cannot even entertain any notion critical of the Right. I'm serious. His brain seems unable to process anything that doesn't already fit into his worldview. So I wrote him a letter, and hopefully, he'll wake up and smell the treason.

Jim,

I am sending this to you because I feel that it is important that you know the WHOLE truth about the Bush administration's involvement with the so-called "intelligence failures" regarding Saddam's WMD capability. Regardless of your political ideology, or of your belief that removing Saddam was worth the price, I would think that you would agree that lying to Congress, the American people and the rest of the world about the rationale for initiating a war that has killed and maimed thousands of Americans is an impeachable offense. Have you heard of the Downing Street Memo/Minutes? I doubt it, because the American media has almost totally ignored it thus far. In a nutshell, the minutes describe the events surrounding a meeting of high-level British and American officials. Among the various statements are ones to the effect of, "Mr. Bush appeared to have already made up his mind to go to war in Iraq." and, "The intelligence would be fixed around the policy. The authenticity of the minutes is not in question, nor is their factual accuracy. This has been confirmed by the British government, which described the minutes as, "an accurate account". Below I have pasted the text of the minutes. Decide for yourself.

<snip>

Nowhere in the Constitution of the United States of America does it explicitly state that the government, or any element thereof, is legally allowed to lie to the people. The Tenth Amendment explicitly prevents the federal government to assume that right. Bill Clinton was nearly removed from office for lying to Congress about his private life with Ms. Lewinsky. Although I disagree withg probing the man's private life in the first place, I sincerely believe that he SHOULD have been impeached and removed for his perjury. George W. Bush should be held to the same standard. His lies have not merely shamed the public by exposing their leader's immorality, they have resulted in the death of more than one hundred thousand innocent people, including almost two thousand of our countrymen. Jim, I know that it is going to be difficult for you to accept that the men that you implicitly trusted lied to you, and everyone else. But the fact remains, that is EXACTLY what happened. Bush lied. I will repeat that so that the full impact may be felt. Bush lied. To you. To me. To everyone. I cannot, in all good conscience, sit idly by and let a good man like you remain ignorant of the truth. For the sake of your soul, not to mention America's future, I implore you, end your support of President Bush.


So that's that. If anyone is interested, I'll gladly fill you in on the epilogue, provided that there is one. All you need to do is ask.

MojoXN

[kimchi]

1. Good luck with that.

Some people just can't handle the truth. I hope you finally get through to him, I really do.

[MojoXN]

8. Kimchi, I love the name!

Kimchee is my absolute favorite fermented product, and I'm a huge fan of soy sauce and miso, so what does that tell you? Do you know of any particularly good brands? I had been getting my supply from a Korean grocer outside of Pittsburgh, but he recently closed, and now I'm bereft of good cabbage product. :( Also, have you ever tried a variety with daikon? They're quite good, provided that you like radish. They get the MojoXN seal of approval.

MojoXN

[kimchi]

16. I have not found a good brand even in the Korean market.

But I've seen about 20 brands and we've only tried four. I don't know, it just seems like restaurants have the good stuff. I can only eat a bite or two with my southern fried sensibilities--my husband thinks it isn't hot *enough*.

I mean, how can you eat kimchee without the barbeque to go with it? I've made the bbq at home but you MUST have the 15 side dishes to get the whole experience! If I find a good brand I'll certainly let you know.

[Rainscents]

23. You love Kimchee... WOW! I do too! I was born and raised in Korea

so, of course, naturally, I love the stuff!!! :thumbsup: :hi:

[MojoXN]

24. Oh, yes...

Kimchee is awesome. I want to go to Korea for two things: the kimchee and the women, in that order. The owner of the Korean grocery, Mr. Park, either made his own or got it shipped in from Korea. Either way, it was awesome. Just hot enough, good and garlicky, and perfectly tender, no crunch left in the cabbage. Woe is me. I have no source for good Kimchee. Suggestions would be welcome. (hint hint).

MojoXN

[Rainscents]

27. You can move to Seattle area... LOL

There's lot of great Korean resturants where you can eat all the Kimchee you want. There's a huge Korean Market not to far from where I live and they make great Kimchee!!! I get mine from there.

[MojoXN]

31. Believe me, I'd like to get out of here...

And go to Seattle. I'm in the heart of Dubyite country. I can't stand living around uneducated rednecks, but I REALLY can't stand living around Dubyite uneducated rednecks. Let me rephrase my initial statement; I need to get out of this country full of uneducated Dubyites. Any country where roughly half of the people think that * is a good idea is assuredly NOT the country for me. Pity. I was rather beginning to like America. Sigh...

MojoXN

[immoderate]

2. Yes, I'd like to see the result.

--IMM

[ellenfl]

3. i would like to know how he responds. please keep

us posted. if he does not agree, i would like to know what his reasoning is. we must know why people don't see the things we see.

tia

ellen fl

[Sugarbleus]

4. Well that's a great letter but...

I know that many on the right HONESTLY believe there is a place and time when it's OKAY to LIE (for national security ya know).

I think the folks on the right should ALSO understand what is happening to THIS country BECAUSE of Bushco's hideous economic and social policies on the domestic side. They should understand what free trade and outsourcing does to THIS COUNTRY'S working class citizens. Show them what the "end game" will look like if we continued with ultra right wing politics. Explain how we ARE NOT SAFER by trying to colonize/conquer every other nation.

They need to understand ALL the facts and All the reasons why President Putz is the wrong man for the job.

My opinion.

[MojoXN]

9. I totally agree...

If he's receptive to my initial entreaty, I'm going to take it upon myself to start educating him. Someone's gotta do it, and that someone might as well be me. He seemed to think that the ultra-right went overboard with the Terri Schiavo thing, that might be a good place to start. Thoughts?

MojoXN

[Sugarbleus]

34. If he's receptive, then go ahead and easily introduce other issues to

him. Too much all at once might overwhelm him and he'd just shut down.

Pick topics that HE seems curious about; whether it's Schiavo or war or social security, expensive health care, or whatever. Get your facts together so you have an answer and are able to help him "connect the dots"..then go for it.

Best of luck... :)

[Skittles]

5. don't hope for miracles

people who still support bush WANT to be misled

[Freedomfried]

7. Its a waste of time to even talk to Bushbots now

The zombies that are still supporting him and his ilk are in for the crash,



and its hell on ones sensibilitys trying to talk to them.

[newyawker99]

33. Hi Freedomfried!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Freedomfried]

35. Thank you for the warm welcome,

Friendly people here, I like it.

[MojoXN]

6. Clarification:

You have to understand that I have been telling him all about Bushco's treasonous ways for some time now. Back when the whole Dan Rather scandal (I refuse to use the term X-Gate) was current, he said to me, "This is the doing of Carville and his gang of slimeballs." I wholeheartedly agreed with him that the whole fiasco was the work of slimeballs, but I rather gently pointed out, "What
better way to earn credibility for your candidate than to poison the well with easily refuted forgeries?" He wouldn't hear of it. I was told, "Our president would NEVER consent to those kind of dirty tricks. He wouldn't lie to the American people."

It was in light of that statement of his that I decided to write the letter. I want him to know that he HAS been lied to. That his trust was misplaced. I've already resolved that if he blows me off, or dismisses my remarks with the standard Rightist talking points, I will never speak to him again. It'd kill my Mom, but I can't, in good conscience, associate with people who willingly blind themselves to the truth. I like the guy, but at this point, I don't want anything to do with ANYONE who supports the murderous, treasonous band of brigands who are in control of this great nation of ours at present.

MojoXN

[leesa]

13. If he still doesn't get it, he doesn't want too. Can't imagine why you

think he's brilliant. I hear this all the time...my friend is really, really smart but he's a BushBot. The two are incompatible.

[MojoXN]

10. Update: His reply:

He actually made a few good points. But, unfortunately, it would appear that he has OD'ed on the Kool-Aid. Like I said before, this otherwise brilliant man can't even entertain a notion that is antithetical to his beloved Rightists. Sad, really...


I will let the accepted view of the situation talk for the majority thought.
Don't read into anything what you might think. I really believe the only
people that know the truth will not let it out. I don't always support what
Bush does, says or thinks but I do support the conservative agenda or low
taxes, individual rights and keeping the government out of my life.
50-90,000 massacred Iraqis was good enough reason for me, with WMDs I might
add. Your must fix you case for publication in any thought process but as I
said I will let someone else's writing put down the other viewpoint. Always
two viewpoints in any matter and probably even more. Why do you think
fixing means lying? I would be there is a fixing of facts for Iran, N.
Korea, and other countries written down as we speak. We have to have
whatever facts we have ready and whatever options we have ready in case of a
problem. Do I agree on how we went to war and how it was presented- No.
Do I believe it was the right thing, Yes. There are other areas in the
world that also pose a problem to my kids and grandkids and hopefully we can
take care of them without war, but Sadaam was in breach of the law and was
killing people. Sorry, but I would have shot the SOB before he even got out
of the hole. Here is the other interpretation. I really don't think any US
president would put our guys in harms way without some very good reasons
that we may not find out until history and all the history is written. War
is not good and in some ways I agree with your viewpoint and I am sure the
truth is somewhere in the middle. Just remember all the absolute documents
that were found on Bush during the election, which is about when these
papers came up. They are probably true but what do they mean, I think we
all depend too much on personal interpretation instead of what they really
mean.

The memo offers nothing at all, whatsoever, as evidence of lying to start a
war in Iraq. Impeachable offense? :rofl: To whom? Saddam? He's the only one.

The only thing said by David Manning is that "intelligence and facts were
being fixed around the policy" which implies military action, since Manning
doesn't fully explain it. And of course, this could imply a HUGE gamut of
meaning, from illicit to noble.

After that, there is NOTHING to detail exactly what that statement means. So
we're left to interpret. Certainly although the MSM is trying to beat their
collective drums to gin up "lying", this in no way whatsoever translates to
"fixing."

"Fixing" could be anything from lining up the facts (and notice Manning did
say "facts", not "lies" or "half-truths", etc). This could be nothing more
than making a concerted presentation to justify the war with a minimum of
WMD evidence. "Fixing" to me in this memo comes out as nothing more than
"arranging" a view, but one which is by no means fabricated or based on a
willful lie.

Furthermore down the memo, the declaration is that the case was "thin". But
notice what it did NOT say - the case was "nonexistent" or "entirely
unjustified". The memo also states that Saddam's WMD capability was "less
than Libya, N. Korea, or Iran" yet of course offers no proof of this; but in
any event, even this statement attests to a WMD capability. Of course the
memo mentions nothing about why we went to war in the numerous violations of
the UN resolutions that Saddam had commited (which history will rightly note
was the basis in Powell's briefing before Congress... he spent far, far more
time numerating these than the one statement of WMD's... his assertion was
that Saddam was an "imminent" NOT "IMMEDIATE" threat), yet the MSM doesn't
seem to get that part. Powell NEVER said that Saddam was an immediate
crisis!. In fact, the entire basis for going to war was to stop him before
he becomes an immediate crisis!. Jeez, how stupid are people? We lost 3,000
people here because we waited too long and assured ourselves that the
terrorists "really wouldn't be so bold as to"... we were wrong. Never again.
So, nothing false there.

The numerous interpretations of such things as "timeline", where Bush said
they had none, yet the MSM shouts about starting the war 30 days before
congressional elections, is weak. "Timeline" means a chronology for the
entire war, not when it starts nor finishes. This is a bad, agenda-driven
error (of course) by the MSM.

This memo says nothing of value except one person's opinion. There is
nothing in the memo to elaborate on "fixing" nor give detailed reasons why
one might even for a second consider lying... there is nothing. The rest of
the memo goes on to outline the events leading up to briefings, etc. for the
war but is simple declarative outline of events and facts, not related to
the "speculative" paragraph above.

It's obvious to see why the Downing Street Memo isn't worth a page 190 in
U.S. newspapers... because it has nothing to offer except for one person's
speculation and not much to back it up. Whoop de do.

However, I will say that Rush (and many others) said well before the 2004
election that if Bush won, there would be at least one serious attempt to
impeach him out of sheer hatred. Since Bush didn't even come close to even
thinking about considering even for a fleeting moment anything impeachable,
they'll have to trump something up like speculative memos to try.


Any suggestions for a counterargument? I know that I vowed to quit after this time, but I just can't let him fall totally into the dark side. Sigh... Why wasn't I born in Europe?

MojoXN

[mitchum]

11. He's a lost cause

a selfish pig who is willing to go through all kinds of mental contortions in the name of "lowered taxes" A "pragmatic" and heavily compromised Libertarian.
You (and your mom) are wasting time with this fuckwit. You both deserve better.

[salin]

12. er - low taxes, individual rights and keeping the govt out of my life?

Is he kidding?

Taxes have been hiked for most - to a great extent because the huge tax cuts to the top meant fewer dollars sent to state for essential (and mandated) services with reciprocal tax hikes in most states - sales taxes, income taxes and property taxes. If he lives in a state where this hasn't happened - then he is lucky.

Individual rights? Expansiion of the Patriot Act, and the demonstration that it has been used in nonterror related cases - that is being able to do searches of all sorts without a review of a judge to demonstrate reasonable cause for search. Or - on the medical front - pushing not only on the abortion front - but now on the contraceptive front? How much more individual can you get? He embraces the religious right pushes - pushed by the Administration to force, legislatively, a religious right agenda on the rest of us, be we liberal christians, of other faiths or no faith? Wow.

Keeping the Govt out of my life? Take a peek at the Florida DHS for example of example of govt intrusion in families for political points. Icky, icky. Or the fed govt overruling states where the individuals by referendum passed medical marijuana laws, or right to die laws? Wow, again.

I doubt you are going to get any concessions on points from this guy. Not until he allows cognitive dissonance into his mind - that is when facts of his life are completely out of line with the beliefs/ideology he holds. Lots of folks to fight off that dissonance find some rw talking point explanation - regardless of how superficial it is - to calm their questioning mind and put them back into a safe lull. It is only through dealing with the cognitive dissonance by questioning more - that folks get passed the talking points. But that is at a cost that many people are fighting hard to keep at bay - the cost of having to begin to question a whole lot of beliefs about our govt, our system etc - we want to believe that we wear white hats, that those serving us are not out to directly harm us, etc.

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. Selfish MePublican

But then, aren't they all!

[LightningFlash]

18. Show him PNAC and have him read ALL the minutes...

Then he'll finally wake up, or go down with the ship. :toast:

[MojoXN]

21. I've tried showing him the PNAC documents. No dice.

The problem is, he's a HUGE fan of Bushism. He agrees with their ideology, and could give a fuck if we've all been lied to. As you can see, he doesn't much seem to care that there's nearly incontrovertible evidence that Bush lied. I had thought that he would care if Bush lied but evidently not. Sad part is, he's a Vietnam veteran too. He's seen waht war is, and he still supports this insane misadventure. I still don't want to give up on him, but I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions? Anyone?

MojoXN

[LightningFlash]

25. Easy, Reverse the conversation on him.

Picture he was the one in the army for instance, inside the war. Well he should be supporting and armed in the war, why isn't he?

What has this war costed him personally? How has this war benefitted him and/or costed him?

How much money has the United States lost as result of this war? How many soldiers are dead because of it? How many innocent civilians? How many minutemen now patrolling the borders with crazed southern accents?

Ask him all those poignant, direct, questions. As a reasonable repub he should have a direct answer. If it has done not a bit of damn good, then why the hell would he support the liars, and THIEVES who are still turning out their BS on his fragile mind? :wow:

Wake up to the truth, and a repub gets mad. Real, REAL mad!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[salin]

29. ask him how he would react to the same scenario

if Gore was president.

[MojoXN]

30. Now THAT'S a GREAT idea!

I hadn't thought of that one. I will use it forthwith. Muchas Gracias, amigo!

MojoXN

[kimchi]

19. He's drunk the entire pitcher of Kool Aid.

"A man hears what he wants to hear, and he disregards the rest".

[warrens]

20. Oy

He's hopeless. No one ever said Saddam was a GOOD guy. That seems to be his point, that Saddam was a bad man, so whatever we did was justified.

He is grasping at straws trying to deny "fix" means to "arrange." They had their conclusions and they sent out their underlings to find something, ANYTHING to justify a decision that was being made not because of WMD, not because of threats to world security, but for their own nefarious reasons, which was basically to secure a beach head in the oil fields of the mideast so that we would have a secure source of oil for the next century. They saw 911 as the excuse they could use, and realized they would have to link Saddam to 911. When that didn't hold water, they just implied it and dug up some worthless intelligence, that they knew damn well was worthless, and tossed it out like red meat to a pack of very stupid dogs. Like your buddy Jim.

His brain is locked for good. If he thinks Bush has created a government that has lowered taxes and lowered government intrusion into his life, he's on drugs.

[MojoXN]

32. I can't wait...

Until some concrete, irrefutable piece of evidence damning Bush surfaces. I wonder if Jim'll try to defend his naked emporer even then. There has got to be some way to wake these people up! I'm sure that you DU'ers have converted more than one Republican. Does anyone have any advice? Good starting points? There must be some way to show him that despite what he has been lead to believe, he is doing himself no favor by voting for and supporting Bush. Are there perhaps any parts of Bushism that would directly affect him? He's a research scientist, not overly wealthy, but certainly living comfortably. White, about 55, from western Pennsylvania. Suggestions?

[TankLV]

14. Clinton NEVER committed perjury!

Even repukes admitted as much.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[Toots]

17. he SHOULD have been impeached and removed for his perjury

Ummm What Perjury? When did he lie to congress? He was neither accused of Perjury nor convicted of Perjury. He did not lie to Congress He was evasive with the Grand jury. He did not "Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." He was evasive and impeached for such.

[MojoXN]

22. I'm well aware...

That line was inserted to hopefully make him more receptive to my message. Obviously, it didn't work. I've been trying different tactics when attempting to convince Rightists that the village idiot from Crawford needs to go. One of these tactics is the old, "Agree with things that aren't true, in order to hammer home the true message" technique. I'm starting to think that I'm wasting my time. Even when I make concessions to his rabid anti-Democratism, like with the Clinton comment, he pisses in my eye. Still, I won't give up without really and truly giving it my best effort.

MojoXN

[Rainscents]

26. I hate to say it... your friend is totally lost case. Only way, he might

wake up to all this, when he found out that, FBI came into his home and snoop search without him knowing (Good old Patrict Act... he did say, "He Support" Government out of his life").

[MojoXN]

28. FUCKING DUBYITES!!!

I can't take it anymore. I'd rather live in goddamn Cuba than put up with these people's unwillingness to see the truth. My last resort is going to be showing him video of Bush's statements about Saddam's WMD's, al-qaeda links, connections with 9-11, etc. I will show him this video, and I will give him a blow by blow account of how, when, and why Bush lied. Even if he agrees with Rightist Dubyism, he should have respect for the fact that lying to Congress should get a presdient removed from office. I know that he WON'T respect that fact, but I'm a-gonna shove it in his face anyway. Then I'm going to show him pictures of the people who've died for his ideology, and ask him STRAIGHT UP if he thinks that these men died for any good fucking reason. I'm so mad that I could kill someone right now. ARRGGH!!!!

MojoXN