Your child is the work of the devil, Church tells world's oldest mother

[emad]

Your child is the work of the devil, Church tells world's oldest mother
By Monica Petrescu in Bucharest
(Filed: 12/06/2005)

She looked wan and weary and needed the physical support of two friends as she stood for the hour-long service, enduring the words of the nuns who told her that giving birth at the age of 66 was the "work of Satan".

Adriana Iliescu, who became the world's oldest mother in January after fertility treatment, drew the wrath of critics as her baby daughter, Eliza, was baptised into the Romanian Orthodox church last week. The private ceremony took place at the Convent of the Archangels Mihail and Gavril, just outside the capital, Bucharest.

A spokesman for the convent said: "We could not refuse to baptise this child - she needs to be baptised and it is the duty of the Church. But what the mother did was Satan's work."

At the time of Eliza's birth, the Church described Mrs Iliescu as "selfish". She, however, said the baby was a "gift from God", adding: "I never gave up my faith in God and in the power of trying to realise one's dreams."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/12/wbuch12.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/06/12/ixportal.html

[cynatnite]

1. What would they have called her if she'd had an abortion?

Fucking hypocrites!

[meow2u3]

59. A woman is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't

If she had had an abortion, they would have called her a baby killer. She had the kid and now they're calling her selfish.

I'll call her selfish only if they equally judge and condemn the father for fathering a kid in his old age! :grr:

[Orangepeel]

70. uh, wait a minute. I don't agree with the whole "devil's work" thing, BUT

it wasn't a choice between abortion or birth until after the woman went through quite a lot of medical treatments.

One is certainly free to disagree strongly with the contention that the woman shouldn't have done such an unnatural thing, but characterizing it as a "damned if she does and damned if she doesn't" situation isn't accurate. There was a third choice, even if one believes she was perfectly justified in not making it.

[AuntiBush]

95. Took the words right out of my mouth. Un-real, huh!

For Pete's sake. I mean... do they ever run out of crappola?

[Jade Fox]

2. Wait! I thought these people loved life in any form!

Is it just me, or is the Church still largely living in the Middle Ages?

[emad]

3. Romania, isn't that the home of the legendary Count von Dracula?

and home of east European Satanism?

[GreenArrow]

4. I kind of agree with the nuns on this

There is something distictly unsavory about a sixty year old woman taking fertility treatments.

[Tsiyu]

7. Well, it's certainly not unbiblical

Would they have said that to Sarah, Wife of Abraham and elderly mother?

[lenidog]

8. It isn't unbiblical but it is being very selfish

[Jade Fox]

11. Why is it selfish? Men in their sixties...

father children all the time, and folks think gee, what a frisky old stud.

[MODemocrat]

19. Yeh! Larry King being one of the oldies who fathered children

What right do the nuns have to judge this woman?

[GreenArrow]

23. yeah, those fertility treatments

worked for him!

[Tsiyu]

34. Does it matter how the child was produced?

if a man uses an erectile dysfunction med when he's 60, isn't he also taking medicine to increase his libido, which, (sorry to those of you who never got any sex education) leads to BABIES??????!!!!!!

[GreenArrow]

38. yeah, I think it does matter how the child was produced

That's the source of all the controversy on this issue. The circumstances of this pregnancy were unnatural. If Ms. Iliescu had concieved her child the old fashioned way, at the age of 66, everyone, including the nuns, would be calling it a miracle.

I'm not big on viagara (pun somewhat intended) but I think it's primary purpose is to allow for the ability to function. While a man's libido and abilty to express it may be improved with viagra, I don't believe it is going to make a sterile man virile again. IOW, it's possible to be sterile, and still have an active libido.

[Zenlitened]

39. Ah, the old "it's unnatural" argument.

An oldie but a goodie, if you'll pardon the pun.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[GreenArrow]

41. for lack of a better term

"unnatural" is exactly what it is.

[Zenlitened]

43. Care to list all the other "unnatural" things people do in the year 2005?

:shrug:

[Zenlitened]

46. Didn't think so.

:eyes:

[Tsiyu]

48. isn't it hilarious how they back off

when logic trumps their shit?

[GreenArrow]

56. sorry I couldn't sit at the computer all day on my day off

answering everyone's questions moments after they were asked.

And, my logic is impeccable.

[Tsiyu]

60. Sorry, no it's not

You never answered Zenlightened's question - only offered a "definition."

Have you seen post #45 yet? I'll be waiting for your logical answer, since I believe if this woman's uterus is YOUR business, your penis or uterus should be HER business.....

[GreenArrow]

63. I'd be glad for you to show me exactly where

it is wrong. I'm willing to be corrected when wrong.

It's kind of pointless to answer Zenlightened's cute little gotcha question when it's already clear that he or she doesn't accept the concept. The word as I used it is in keeping with standard English usage.

[Tsiyu]

73. "Cute little gotcha question"???????????

He was making a point that you call something unnatural, but there are plenty of things humans do in 2005 that are unnatural. What makes this fertility treatment any worse?

Driving in a car is "unnatural." Putting people on life support is "unnatural" if nature would just allow the person to die. Surgery on the elderly is "unnatural." Boob jobs are "unnatural." Are you against those as well? After all, nature intended breasts to make milk, not to make a woman more attractive. Plastic surgery, insulin, I could go on and on. So your rationale that things be "natural" before you accept them as correct is quite selective.

And you STILL have not answered this question, which should be easy for a logical guy or gal:

If you think this woman's uterus and how she uses it are YOUR business, do you also grant her the right to view your uterus or penis and what you do with it as HER business? This is a very important question, because when people claim some right over a woman's reproductive organs, they are stating that it is acceptable for one person to tell another person what to do with their reproductive organs. And that means it should also be acceptable for any stranger who is human ( by your own "logic," not mine) to tell YOU how to use YOU penis or vagina. Are you down with that? Or do you believe, as I do, that:

A PERSON'S REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS AND WHAT THEY DO WITH THEM ARE NOBODY'S BUSINESS BUT THAT PERSON'S ?????? Can you not answer that?

[GreenArrow]

77. ah, but see, I never said this, not the way you seem to think I have

"If you think this woman's uterus and how she uses it are YOUR business" I've already responded to this in answer to your # 45 post.

But, in response to your bolded section, there are plenty of things that people do with their reproductive organs that effect other people, and not always for the good.

Additionally, I never said in any of my posts that the decision was anyone's other than her own. That being said, I stand by my perception that her decision was a selfish one. Those two positions are not inherently opposed. Or is one to assume that the simple abilty to make one's own decisions also implies that the decisions are always wise ones? It need not be limited to reproductive organs either; have you never tried to persuade someone whose decision you believed was wrong headed or harmful to themselves or others?

When my brother married his first wife, I told him it was a mistake, and I told him why I thought so, and he went ahead with his decision to marry her. And I didn't stop loving him, or wanting the best for him, and I did my best to get to know and care for his wife as well, but three years later, his decision proved to be "wrong." Wrong in that it ended in divorce, but in the greater scheme of things, it was niether right nor wrong; it was simply a choice that led to other things than otherwise might have been. So it will be with Illiescu; the choice is made, and consequences, both "good" and "ill" will follow. Personally, it's not a choice I would have made, and even she wouldn't want her daughter to do things the same way.

[FreedomAngel82]

86. Who made you God?

I didn't know you were now a God and could say what was unnatural! Wow!!! I'm so amazed! A God is in my prescene!!! (/sarcasm) What about Mike Malloy and his wife and daughter Molly? Is that "unnautral" as well?

[GreenArrow]

104. not a God

just a hero.

[GreenArrow]

55. I could list others

but since you don't believe things are unnatural, you would deride it anyway. FWIW:

Main Entry: un·nat·u·ral
Pronunciation: "&n-'na-ch&-r&l, -'nach-r&l
Function: adjective
1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of events
2 a : not being in accordance with normal human feelings or behavior : PERVERSE b : lacking ease and naturalness : CONTRIVED <her manner was forced and unnatural> c : inconsistent with what is reasonable or expected <an unnatural alliance>
synonym see IRREGULAR

I'd say "unnatural" pretty well describes a 66 year old woman taking fetility treatments to have post-menopausal baby. That's not the way things are "normally" done.

[Zenlitened]

64. No, what I'd deride is the weak logic on which you've based...

... your argument.

Then I'd insist that you purge all things "unnatural" from your own life before you resume proselytizing on what a woman may or may not do with her own body.

I'd probably go on to add that your concerns about the future well-being of the child seem awfully misplaced in a world where starvation, disease, and failed societies are killing millions of children every year.

Unless, of course, you have a list of other women in other circumstances whom you have declared unfit or unworthy to reproduce.

In which case, I'd frankly rather not hear about it. There's enough bullshit being spouted everywhere every day, I don't need to come to DU to hear more of it.

[GreenArrow]

69. show me the weakness in my logic then?

I suppose you think GM food is natural? Or if science was capable of putting a uterus in my body, and then impregnating me, a man, it would be an example of naturalness. Cloning is certainly natural. Just because something is possible does not make it natural, in and of itself. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is a great explication of this.

You might want to read my posts more carefully before you go putting words in my mouth. I did not make any pronouncents about what the woman could or could not do with her uterus. I did say I thought it was selfish and unnatural, a word whose use I stand by, correct in standard English usage. She's got every right to do what she did. I don't agree with it, but it was her choice. The woman herself admits it was selfish.

I'm not sure what your point is to bringing up the state of the world and the birth of this particular child. Should I wish the child ill then?

[Zenlitened]

72. Well, now I'd also question your reading comprehension.

You're not reading very carefully, instead continuing to hammer away at an unsustainable position.

Think we're done here.

[GreenArrow]

78. again, show me the error of my logic

And further show me where I made a statement about what the woman could not do with her own body.

As I told BHG, I'm perfectly willing to be corrected. Been wrong plenty of times before, will be wrong plenty more. But I don't believe this is one of those times.

We can be done. I'm tired too.

[Zenlitened]

79. "... show me the error of my logic..."

Um, I did. :eyes:

[GreenArrow]

81. no, You didn't

YOu mischaracterized my position and put words in my mouth.

[Zenlitened]

82. Hahahahaha! Is that the fall-back line they teach you to use...

... in Rhetoric 101?

Give it a rest.

I'd say "take an Ambien," but that would be unnatural. :rofl:

[FreedomAngel82]

87. Nope

It's none of your damn business what is "unnatural" and what isn't. It's your OPINION and that's it. Just what YOU say is "unnautral" doesn't mean it's that way for someone else. Duh.

[wickerwoman]

103. Were humans designed to run 70+ miles an hour?

Then I hope you don't have a car. It's unnatural.

[lenidog]

20. I think that is selfish too

Think of it this way, they are married to a younger woman and if they die then the kid has at least one parent. This is a single woman who on average probably wont live to see the kids 18th birthday. There is no father, no older siblings, in fact sounds like no family at all. So if the mother dies before she is 18 she goes to an orphanage or if she is lucky the godfather who helped bring her into the world will take care of her. We have all of that and then add into the mix that the woman sounds like she is barely making it and emptied her savings so that she could have this kid. I am going to add irresponsible to the description of her.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. You have nothing to back up your assumptions, do you? How do you....

...know that she hasn't planned for every eventuality, including where the child will go after her death?

[lenidog]

30. She hasn't planned for every eventuality one just has to look at the state

of her finaces to see that.

[Zenlitened]

65. Sooooo... poor women should not have kids?

Only wealthy families should reproduce?

Where exactly is your logic leading you?

[lenidog]

99. Think of it this way

The kid is has now been born and is a part of this world. Try looking at if from the what is best for the child and less what is best for the woman who followed her "dream"

[Zenlitened]

105. So you're saying it would be best for the child...

... if he had never been born at all?

Nice.

[lenidog]

109. Well if you are going to read what you want into my posts

I will just let you make them up and save me some time and effort. Its obvious to anyone that the only person that the woman was thinking of was herself when she decided to pursue her "dream." So leave it at that.

[Zenlitened]

111. Nice dodge. But the "logic" in your position leads directly...

... to the conclusion that this child should NOT have been born.

[FreedomAngel82]

88. So then I guess

Mike Malloy and his wife are selfish eh? He's older then her and they have a daughter who's a couple months old. I think you're the one who's being pretty selfish here. I guess we have another God here!!

[Tsiyu]

33. but they're MEN

and it's not unselfish if they want to have all-day erections even in their nineties ;) and children could result, Friends!

A woman? Oh, boy aren't we quick to judge what is "age-appropriate?" No such thing as sexism? Hyuh! Sexism is ESPECIALLY rampant when we talk about sex or reproduction....

[GreenArrow]

40. that's not really the issue

As men's and women's reproductive systems work differently. Age appropriate? The woman had long since passed through menopause. Now there's probably a good reason why menopause exists. Like it or not, men retain their ability to father children for a longer time then women do. Biology, not sexism, is at work here.

[Tsiyu]

45. Male sperm motility and fertility decrease

as men age. Biologically, though men can reproduce later than females, the decline in sperm quality means there is a much greater risk for birth defects in the children of older men.

The point of this thread was to point out how "good Christians" were demonizing this woman. How funny that some of the progressives are doing the same thing. Well, guess what? How many grandparents are raising their grandkids these days? Many. Should they have those kids yanked from their homes because the parents are too old to raise them?


Once again, a woman's uterus is not her own! It belongs to you, GreenArrow, since you claim below that her uterus and what she does with it are "your business." If you have a penis or a uterus, will you give the 66-year-old woman reciprocal privileges over your reproductive organs? Can she tell you when you're using your penis correctly?

[GreenArrow]

74. birth defects or not, men are capable of reproducing later than women

I made no statments on the ownership of Ms. Illiescu's uterus. Of course, she is responsible for, and capable of making her own decisions, regardless of whether I or you, or anyone else disagrees with them or not. I happen to disagree with them. I happen to consider them unnatural, and selfish. I think there is something tragic about them. The decision is made, the deed done, and life flows on. But I never suggested that the decision was anyone's other than her own. You might want to read my statement about things "being my business" over again. On second thought, never mind, I'll re-state it, since it was likely easily misinterpreted.

As a creature of the world, I have an innate interest in and connection to every other thing in it. The behaviour of people, in different times and places, is my business. This doesn't imply ownership but rather kinship, however many poles apart we may seem to be. My business is to understand, and it doesn't always come easily.

[Tsiyu]

76. Thank you. That was quick ;)

Are you sure your business is not to judge? LOL. Your comment about it being "unsavory" when 60-year-old men still want to have erections sort of really makes me wonder what you have against older people having sex.

That's sad to me, because I believe people should be able to enjoy happy, healthy, enjoyable sex lives their entire lives.

And you are entitled to your opinion on this woman. But I am also entitled to tell you that it seems to be based on your revulsion at older people having sex, and your selective demand that in this specific case, the conception be totally "natural." And also, that older people can't be decent caregivers. I would not consider these arguments based on "logic" but as arguments based on personal taste, emotions and age bias. Just my opinion, of course....

[GreenArrow]

83. this is wearing me out!

You're right. Nine years of fertility treatments resulting in a post menopausal pregnancy is selfless, and natural.

As for older people being decent caretakers, my grandmother did a pretty good job with me, basically taking care of me until I was four, so I really don't think I have an issue there.

[FreedomAngel82]

89. I guess Hugh Hefner can't have sex anymore

;) Someone should call the playboy mansion and let him know. ;)

[Jade Fox]

50. Actually, children fathered by aged men....

are more likely to have birth-defects, etc., I believe.

Apparently, old sperm leave something to be desired, reproduction-wise.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. In YOUR opinion.

[lenidog]

31. Yes in my opinion which counts just as much as yours

I am sorry she is being selfish.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

96. I'm sorry you think that.

[lenidog]

100. I am sorry I am more worried about the life of the kid

now that she is born than this womans "dream."

[GreenArrow]

12. Sarah was taking fertility treatments?

I'd forgotten about that. I thought her pregancy was unexpected. And Sarah was certainly behaving selfishly, just as this woman is doing.

[jobycom]

27. They were faith-based fertility treatments.

[Tsiyu]

35. Exactly

She kept asking God for a kid, and he obliged. When she was r=e=e=e=a=a=ally old.

That's what the bible says, anyhoo. I'm not saying it's fact, just saying that any Christian who says an old lady shouldn't have a kid is also saying that about one of their "bible heroines."

[GreenArrow]

42. yeah, and Sarah was actively having sex

which Ms. Illiescu wasn't. There are good biological reasons why the "old lady" shouldn't have a kid.

[FreedomAngel82]

90. Sarah was selfish?

God gave her a promise and he kept it. So are you saying God was wrong? And you have to remember that in Sara's time frame people lived a lot longer as well. When she had her child she was considered young.

[Beware the Beast Man]

58. Or Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist?

[Jade Fox]

10. Why? Do you object to sixty year old men knocking back Viagra?

[GreenArrow]

15. yeah, there's something kind of unsavory about that

too.

[FreedomAngel82]

91. Somebody call Hugh Heffner!

No more sex for mr. playboy!

[lenidog]

21. It depends are the 60 year old men doing it to have kids or are they doing

it to have a sex life after 60.

[GreenArrow]

28. important distinction

.

[Tsiyu]

61. Again, there is no distinction to me

60-year old men have every right to have erections and sex, even if that sex can lead to unplanned pregnancy, even if that's WHY they are having sex. Rod Stewart is about as old as this woman, and he's got another one due. HIS BUSINESS.

There is no distinction. PART OF BEING A PROGRESSIVE is accepting that others have the right to their own reproductive organs, whether they're nine or ninety...

[LiberallyInclined]

106. fertility treatment does NOT equate with viagra.

women don't need to take fertility drugs just to have sex.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. But it's none of your business, is it? If a woman wants a child and is...

...physically and mentally able to have one, nobody else's opinion matters.

There is something distictly unsavory about a message board poster on DU being critical of a sixty year old woman who took fertility treatments and had a healthy baby.

[lenidog]

32. There is the rub she technically wasn't physically able to

and the baby had to spend three weeks in intensive care and had a sibling die in the womb. So the pregnancy obviously wasn't all wine and roses.

[Tsiyu]

36. Young parents die all the time

and have complicated pregnancies. My twins spent four weeks in intensive care. I was 20. There are no guarantees in any pregnancy or with any set of parents.

People are so goddamned quick to judge women. IT FUCKING MAKES ME SO GODDAMNED DISGUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, rant over....

[FreedomAngel82]

92. I had problems and so did my brother

when my mother had us. I had a hole in my heart the size of a quarter and had surgery. Then through that I got a staff infection and was home bound for a year. So shit happens. It can happen to anybody at any age. My mother was in her mid twenties when she had me. My brother also. He had the disease where he had trouble when he was learning how to potty train going and he hurt in his stomach and was a sick baby.

[GreenArrow]

37. but she wasn't phsyically able to have a child

she had to take treatments for nine years to be able to do so. And her mental state is questionable in my book. She needs a child, why? If this woman had been having sex at age 66, and happened to get pregnant as a result of it, I would have no problems with it. I'm glad that the child was born healthy. I'm glad the mother seems to be hanging in there; I hope she is able to live a long life. But the process by which the child was born was simply unnatural and unnecessary, and yes, selfish.

"None of my business?" Probably not, but if you want to take that approach, very little of what is disccussed on DU is my business or yours. We might as well shut the board down.

But as a human being, who shares this world with other human beings, and as such, has an innate connection with them, this individual's behaviour and situation are very much in the line of my business, thanks.

[Fifth of Five]

44. So young women who are unable to conceive

should not take fertility treatments either?

Just checking.

[Tsiyu]

47. I guess not, since it's "Unnatural" n/t

[GreenArrow]

80. no, I don't think they should

But it's not my choice, is it?

[FreedomAngel82]

93. And neither is this

You're not God are you?

[Sydnie]

57. She obviously was physically able -- the child was a live birth baby

She is no more wrong than the 20 somethings or 30 somethings, or even 40 somethings, that have "treatments" to have a baby. Either the science is there for all, or it should be there for none.

These nuns were wrong, IMHO. And, if they felt that way, why did they baptize the baby after all?

[lenidog]

101. Its not that simple because if you read the article

she had twins and one died in the womb

[Media_Lies_Daily]

97. That happens to much younger women as well...maybe you didn't know?

[Rose Siding]

5. Take that, Sarah and Abraham

[lenidog]

6. I hate to say this they are right on her being selfish.

Odds are that the mother is going to be dead due to natural causes before the kid turns 18. Since the kid doesn't have a father and no older siblings she may end up in a orphanage. Real brilliant thinking for a supposedly educated woman. Maybe if she is lucky her godfather will take her in

[JitterbugPerfume]

13. it was a selfish act

but the child exists

andit is not evil <sigh>

[lenidog]

16. Not for once instant is the kid evil

Just the mother needs her head examined

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. Do you think it's possible that she has already planned for where her...

...child will go after her death?

You automatically assume stupidity on the part of this woman without any reason to do so.

[Zenlitened]

66. Well, as progressives, we all know that only the wealthy...

... should reproduce.

:sarcasm:

[jbnow]

98. I saw an interview with her parents

who seemed quite healthy and vibrant. They were quite supportive. Their family history suggests the odds are decent she will raise her child into adulthood. (And yes she does have plans if something does happen to her)

Kids might feel funny having a parent so much older then other parents coming to their activities, but the odds are in favor of her being healthy enough to show up for them.

Selfish? How do we know? I wouldn't want to be her, I'm not sure why the doctor made that choice. But the child is surely loved and wanted, perhaps the world will be a better place because the child is in it. There are many young parents who are selfish in having their child, either using the child to manipulate or neglecting or abusing them. Those are selfish parents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Why do they care?

Why is it these nuns think they get to judge this woman?

[sakabatou]

14. People who call baby "devil" now called "ignorant" by scientists

[johnfunk]

17. Yes, it's another example of Christian compassion...

... not to mention the culture of life!

[emad]

18. Always makes me laugh: human beings assuming role of

official outraged spokesperson for the Creator...or whatever she likes to call Herself these days...

[Solly Mack]

25. I'd have told them to kiss my ass.

in no uncertain terms

[fortyfeetunder]

49. More power to mama

So what she's 66? I don't care. Why should we care?

[Zerex71]

51. One more reason the Catholic Church is irrelevant.

They'll pick on an old Romanian but won't really do a thing as far as stopping mass murder aka Curious George's Adventures In Iraqnam.

[shrike]

52. Uh, the church in question is Romanian Orthodox

not Roman Catholic.

[cloudythescribbler]

53. but at any rate, she should have thanked them for the compliment

That would really tell them which end is up.

[shrike]

54. It's also not too much to ask that people read the story

instead of responding to the headline.

[DemBones DemBones]

102. The headline was misleading, wasn't it? nt

[Zerex71]

84. Whatever, they're all irrelevant! :)

[mod mom]

62. I didn't realize Karl Rove's mother was the oldest mother.

[carpe diem]

67. i too think it was selfish...

by the time this child starts first grade, she's going to be taking care of her mother more than her mother takes care of her...if she lives much past seventy, her child is going to have to spend her childhood caring for an elderly parent...or, be an orphan while still school age...

[shrike]

110. After reading the article, I'd have to agree somewhat

Maybe irresponsible is a better word. Kind of like the sixteen year old who gets pregnant either by accident or because she "wants a baby" but has no way to support it, nowhere to live, and no way to give it an interested father.

This woman has to work well into her seventies just to pay her rent. Her pension is tiny, she has few resources. If I'm not mistaken, Italy has somewhat of a social safety net, so that should help. Then there is her health. I am married to a much-older man, and while he is wonderful, the body does decline, sometimes rapidly, when one is in one's sixties. Hopefully, she has plans, and someone to help.

[Ripley]

68. Wow, lookit all these woman-loving posts!

Sure seems like the anti-female brigades are out in force lately.

The hypocricy is oozing. Tony Randall has every right to father kids at 80 - in fact, is complimented at his virility and love for children; but damn to hell that 60-something woman for wanting to do the same thing.

[Tsiyu]

75. It's not only women!

They're out in full force against poor people and old people, too!

I guess if you don't have a huge savings account and you are over 40, you should not be a caregiver for children. So where are all these orphanages that are gonna hold the millions of kids being cared for by poor, older people? Should I ask Newt GingGrinch? :shrug:

[cynatnite]

71. It's all about choice

Women have a right to decide what to do with their own bodies and not have some holier than though moran preaching and condemning them for their choices.

Whether any woman has an abortion, takes fertility drugs, or whatever the case may be, it's her choice. None of us have to like it or agree with it.

For the record, I don't agree with it, but hey...she's got that right and that choice.

[FreedomAngel82]

85. Simply disgusting how they are treating people

:mad: I'm so sick and fed up with it! Would Jesus tell someone their child was of Satan?! :mad:

[Tace]

94. This Is Nobody's Business But Her Own

Those are some mean-spirited nuns. Sounds like some envy involved.

[LiberallyInclined]

108. i kinda disagree with that.

i'm not saying that i agree with the nuns behaviour...BUT- i have strong reservations about a 65 year-old woman recieving fertility treatments-
for one thing, and mainly- it's not fair to the child
and for another- it's treatment that could better be used for a younger woman, more suited to motherhood of an infant.

so to say that it's nobody's business but her own is a little off the mark...plus, since it takes both sperm and egg to make a baby, there's also at least one other person besides the child whose business it is.

[malmapus]

107. After watching this thing on the Church and the devil last night

I can't help but laugh

I learned something new last night, that apprently one of the early Popes (want to say Gregor or something like that) couldn't understand why people who followed Islam bathed regularly...so of course denouced that as an act of the devil.....oiy