Should a police officer be able to subdue an unruly child without a taser?

[cestpaspossible]

Poll question: Should a police officer be able to subdue an unruly child without a taser?

When the bus monitor couldn't restrain the boy, the driver radioed her dispatcher, who called police.

The policewoman used her Taser after the boy screamed obscenities and threatened to kill her, the police report said.

More police arrived about seven minutes later and dispersed the crowd, including the boy's guardian, who said she could have handled the boy if she had been allowed on the bus.

The busing company, SBS Transit, does not allow parents or guardians on buses.

"They went about it the wrong way," Goodson said. "He didn't know what the officer wanted him to do."
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/lorain/111848257318490.xml&coll=2

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. She should have called for help.

She should be FIRED!

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. That is what I have thought all along

I can understand ONE cop not being able to restrain a raging kid, but why didn't she call for backup - or why didn't TWO cops answer the call?

Fortunately, we haven't had to call the cops but a couple times over all the years I have been teaching. (And those times were mainly for property crimes, like stolen cars. Once we had a kid try to set the bathroom on fire.) But every time I can remember cops being called, at least TWO came, never only one. Same with school district security. Always TWO officers.

[dsc]

63. Cleveland is broke

They have laid of hundreds of police officers and fire fighters and thousands of teachers. They are lucky one officer showed up in the same century as the call was made.

[cestpaspossible]

96. Maybe they could raise some money by selling their tasers

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. Yes, make the cops do fund raising

like the schools have to do.

[dsc]

114. The schools have a class size of 45

and most of the equipment is provided by the feds. It is one of the few things the feds will do for local departments. The bought Cleveland a tank just recently.

[HockeyMom]

2. If a police officer cannot subdue a preschooler,

he/she has no business being a police officer.

[wakeme2008]

3. Kid was 12 that is not a pre-schooler

and hit an officer... Taser away....

[Bouncy Ball]

7. Oh right 12.

Well hell if the kid was 12 then the officer DEFINTELY couldn't handle him on her own!

I hope that officer isn't allowed to be called out to anything other than child situations. I'd hate to see her up against an adult who took too long to get out of their car or something. Does she just go straight for the gun in that case?

[wakeme2008]

13. Sorry but a Officer should not have to wait until they have a knife in

them to take action... Once the Office was hit and witness saw that, end of story....

[Bouncy Ball]

15. Right, end of story, they are cuffed.

What's the need for the tasering? The 50,000 volts?

Are you telling me police officers no longer receive training in anything other than "the slightest amount of resistance and taser them?" That's ridiculous. The police officers in my city don't even HAVE tasers, so I know they'd be able to handle that 12 year old, get him in cuffs, and get him off the bus without whipping out a taser.

Who said wait until there is a knife in them? You don't realize there's a lot of area in between those two?

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Most special ed teachers are trained in

restraint methods when kids are raging like this. Hard to believe a cop doesn't have similar training.

[cestpaspossible]

29. Yep, if the officer is afraid of a child an electric shock should be given

As another poster commented, that'll 'make the little punk think twice'.

[slaveplanet]

18. That is an accusation

that is in dispute by 30+ witnesses that were so upset with what they were witnessing, they pounded on the windows and caused $550 worth of damage to the bus door trying to gain entry.

[Bouncy Ball]

21. Wow.

I didn't know that.

[slaveplanet]

24. that is because people are

citing the Plain Dealer article that is basically a release by the police spokesman. The Lorain Morning Journal give a more balanced account of the events...for instance , the guardian of the boy, claims the fight did not start over a CD case at all. But it started over an insult about the boys DECEASED mother, the other boy would not drop, and the fight ensued due to continued egging on by the other boy.

[Grillydad]

6. The Kid was 12

but a police officer should be able to talk him down. The problem wit all the equipment is that officers (and others) leap to their use before trying other means.

That being said... he was only 12. He should be able to subdue a kid without a taser.

[wuushew]

4. How about a broader question

is it ever appropriate to use possibly lethal force against someone who is not directly threatening someone's health or life?

If a police officer tackles a burglar who stole a purse the possibility of breaking the person's neck exists. Since the burglar did not intend to break his own neck is the benefit of catching the perp outweighed by the unintentional homicide?

[cestpaspossible]

5. I think it is a stretch to call tackling

'possibly lethal force'. Yes it is mathematically possible, but...

[wuushew]

9. Why take the chance of killing someone?

A live criminal is more important to society than a dead one.

Also the damages to property need not be rectified with police force, insurance can compensate people for property loss.

[roguevalley]

10. I've seen eight year olds drop grown men in their tracks.

Try wrestling one who is filled with anger and escape.

[tx_dem41]

8. How should I know? I wasn't there.

I'm supposed to make a decision based on one newspaper article?

[MrSlayer]

11. The kid head butted her and was completely out of control.

"He didn't know what the officer wanted him to do." Well perhaps if he stopped acting like a maniac and listened he might have understood. Taser use justified in my opinion. You don't attack the police.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. Nope, sorry, but police officers have successfully

handled head-butting 12 year olds for years without tasering them.

Um, by the way, do you know how hard he head-butted her? I can head-butt someone and it doesn't even hurt them. Or I can head-butt them so hard it nearly knocks the wind out of them. And everything in between.

So where did it fall on the scale?

Again, police officers are supposed to be trained to deal with unruly 12 year olds. If they can't handle an unruly 12 year old without tasering them, I don't think they need to be in that line of work.

[tx_dem41]

17. No one knows how hard the kid head-butted her. NO ONE knows...

...how big the kid was. NO ONE really knows what the situation was. We just know a little bit from this one article. In fact, even the police clearly state that THEY do not know if the tasering followed training procedure. They are smart enough to conduct an investigatin based on eye witness testimony. We on the other hand, are all about making ABSOLUTIST statements about a situation, we know nothing about.

Kind of silly, when you think about it.

[Bouncy Ball]

19. And those are good points.

I'm not concerning myself so much with individual cases as I am with the horrible feeling that tasers are far too easy to use too quickly and to abuse.

That's all.

[AX10]

87. If I don't comply with an officers orders or answer a question....

or don't have an answer, should I be tasered? Hell No! If we allow them to do so, that would be Abu Gareb style tortue.

[Bouncy Ball]

20. Dupity dupe dupe!

[noiretextatique]

47. this isn't the first story about questionable taser usage

there was a 6 year old, and a handcuffed 9 year old. and of course the 73 year old woman.
there is also an amnesty international report that calls into question the uses of tasers in situations where deadly force would not be used.
unless of course you believe a head-butt warrants being shot with a gun.

[MrSlayer]

22. I don't know how hard it was nor do I think it matters.

This kid was on a rampage, I would imagine it was as hard as he could do it. Go on hating the police all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this kid was a criminal acting out of rage and was dealt with appropriately. You act like the kid's age makes him immune to the law. Don't assault the police and you won't get tasered. Pretty simple really. I'll bet the little punk will think twice next time before trying to rob someone.

[Bouncy Ball]

25. Where did I say I hated the police?

Classic. So now I'm a police hater, huh? Oh if you only knew me in real life. I'm about as far from hating the police as you can get. Always taught my daughter that the police are the "good guys," that she should go to them if she is lost or in danger. NEVER taught her to be afraid of them, like some parents do. I have ALWAYS treated police officers with the utmost respect. So has everyone in my family.

How do you know he was on a rampage? Were you there? See, that's my point. And as pointed out by someone above, witnesses were so upset by what the police officer was doing, they did damage to the bus protesting it. My God. What the HELL was going on in that bus?

Tasers are too convenient. They are too easy. And it's too bad you never addressed the point I made about a police officer not being able to handle a 12 year old without 50,000 volts.

The police officers in my city don't even have tasers. They handle unruly kids ALL the time.

[MrSlayer]

30. He assaulted a police officer.

From what I read in the story the kid was going berserk. Should the officer have let him go on hitting and attacking her? I just don't get what you think should have been done here. Give him a cookie and hope he stops? Blast him over the head with a nightstick? Leave and let him get his way? If he was cooperating he would not have needed to be tasered. If he hadn't been a bullying thief none of this would have happened at all. I admit calling you a police hater was putting you in the catagory of most of the anarachy advocating people I argue with when it comes to police matters on here. I apologize for that.

[Bouncy Ball]

38. Thanks, I do appreciate that.

I support military, police and fire families totally.

Whatever happened to the physical manuevers police officers have been taught? There are lots of them! Why are her only choices tasering him, giving him a cookie or hitting him on the head with a nightstick? Has she never been trained in defensive tactics?

Ever seen the Parson's Continuum? You are skipping over an entire range of methods when you skip from giving him a cookie to hitting him over the head with a nightstick to a taser. So tell me, have some police departments just chucked defensive tactics and gone straight to impact weapons as a matter of routine? (On edit: I'd like to thank my best friend's dad--a Dallas police officer of many years, for telling me about things like this...)

http://www.aele.org/alert-tactics.html#30

http://www.aele.org/alert-tactics.html

Law enforcement officers are permitted to use the degree of force that is reasonably necessary to accomplish their lawful objectives and to overcome any unlawful resistance. The progression of force can be depicted graphically, such as the Confrontational Continuum developed by Kevin Parsons, Ph.D. and similar models developed by others. These models describe what have often been vague policies on this subject. Such models are also useful in litigation; they explain to the jury why an officer responded in a particular fashion. They also give the jury a standard by which they can judge whether the use of force was correct. Figure 1 depicts the Parsons Continuum, which is a linear acceleration through a progressive series of steps.

The usual first step is verbal persuasion; the second is manual escort. If unsuccessful or inappropriate, the next step is pain compliance. Usual methods of pain compliance include the wrist lock, arm bar or other "come-along" technique. It is only when mechanical control methods are ineffective (or not appropriate) that the force applied escalates to the use of impact weapons.

The principal police impact weapon is the baton. It is the intermediate step between hand-applied force and the ultimate force of firearms. It should be noted that most police trainers will consider it a poor practice or even negligence not to issue and train officers with a baton (except those few departments whose officers are not armed at all). The alleged negligent act is allowing officers to escalate from hand-holds and pain compliance directly to deadly force, when the application of a greater degree of non-lethal force would likely have accomplished the objective of overcoming resistance.

[converted_democrat]

40. Great post !!!!!!!

[Bouncy Ball]

41. I'm seriously disturbed by this trend, can you tell?

This trend of going from verbal requests/orders straight to impact weapons (even "non-lethal"). That's NOT the way it's supposed to work.

The officers using tasers in place of defensive tactics that are supposed to be used BEFORE impact weapons need to talk to departments in cities where they don't have tasers and maybe get a refresher course on how they handle 12 year olds.

[converted_democrat]

43. Hey. I agree. We are jumping head first into becoming a police state.

People don't seem to understand (or maybe they do) how they are helping this administration complete it's wettest of dreams.

[MrSlayer]

46. Perhaps he was going so crazy she couldn't get a grip on him.

I have to think that if the officer tasered the kid, she had no choice but to do so and other options were exhausted or unlikely to work.

[Bouncy Ball]

52. It's very nice of you to give her so much benefit of the doubt.

And I'd like to, too, but I find it hard to believe that a fully trained, fully grown police officer could not use one of the many defensive tactics they are taught to take down an unarmed 12 year old.

She refused to use those tactics. She skipped them completely. And the only way that would be warranted is if there was some evidence he was hopped up like mad on PCP and/or armed.

[MrSlayer]

57. Because he's 12 doesn't mean he's a little kid.

He could be as big as a full grown man. And someone in the throws of complete rage is a lot stronger than the average calm person regardless of size. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt because I know how it is dealing with insaniacs. I really don't think she was left with any choice. Suppose she did arm bar or wrist lock him and he still kept going and broke his own arm because of the hold. Then it would be "The horrible police officer who broke some kid's arm" and "Why didn't she just tase him instead of breaking his arm?" Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I think we can all agree that the kid was acting very inappropriately if the cops had to be called and that the last thing the officer wanted to do was taser a 12 year old. No one wants that but sometimes it's the only choice.

[Bouncy Ball]

59. I wouldn't fault her

if she had used defensive tactics instead of skipping straight to the taser, sorry. If he had broken his arm while she was trying to restrain him, well that's not unknown. But tasering is a whole different ball of wax. It falls under impact weaponry and again, you don't just skip over defensive tactics. Especially with someone unarmed. Armed--that's a different story, but from what I read, she had no reason to believe he was armed. So why go straight to the taser? Again, it just makes no sense. But I would NOT fault her for trying defensive tactics first, that is what police officers are supposed to do in most cases.

[MrSlayer]

71. How do we know she didn't try defensive tactics?

Is it in there anywhere that she didn't? Perhaps those defensive tactics were what everyone was protesting about. Maybe, in the confusion, they took her trying to subdue him as some kind of abuse or whatever. Also, just because you know the moves doesn't mean you'll always be able to apply them. I know black belts and golden gloves boxers who have lost their share of street fights to untrained people. It's also not like she walked in and just blasted the kid with the taser, there was some struggle going on before it happened. I think if she had to resort to it, it must have been necessary. I'm guessing there is no video so we'll never really be sure.

[Bouncy Ball]

74. Believe me, if she did, they would have mentioned it in the article.

At the very least, it would behoove the police department to make sure the public knew EVERYTHING she tried BEFORE the taser, because it makes the use of the taser easier to justify.

[MrSlayer]

76. Maybe, maybe not.

I guess we'll have to wait for further development.

[Bouncy Ball]

78. True.

I have enjoyed our exchange!

:toast:

[MrSlayer]

86. So have I.

Enjoy your evening.

[Tsiyu]

113. Look, I am a 100 pound woman with seven kids

And I'll guaran-damn-tee you I could take that kid down if I needed to. Just ask any one of my kids....But when you have an emotionally distraught kid, going in gangbusters isn't going to resolve that. Calm talking rather than an 'I-am-an-authority-figure-and-I'll-kick-your-ass' attitude makes the difference between an effective cop and a dangerous one.

Why is a Taser-happy cop dangerous to you, me and everyone else?

First off, every kid on that bus now has a very negative view of police. AS do the onlookers outside the bus. This means more individuals who may react to a cop out of fear, and that means more Tasering. Fear creates fight or flight reactions, REMEMBER????

Second, law enforcement across this nation have seen major cuts in funding. Every lawsuit comes out of the taxpayers' pockets, even if the police win. This is going to drain us financially if cops don't get a freaking handle on this.

Third, when we do not demand an explanation every time one is used, we are complicit in sending a message to cops saying, "Sure! Taser all you want! We don't care! Kids? Elderly? If they give you lip, just Taser the mothers." When it's YOUR kid, and YOUR elderly mother, perhaps you will care, but by then it may be too late.

[slaveplanet]

55. AKA: Force continuum

Militarized police agencies prime directive is control.
not service as they would have you believe. This is why they are no longer referred to as "Peace officers"

children of 12 are not taught this in school, and therefore should not be subject to the same consequences as adults, Who have the civic responsibility to learn & realize that we under the rule of militarized police, and what that means.

The continuum begins when the uniform is put on.
Just the sight of a uniformed officer is about force & control.
The militarized agency employee has one objective when they come into contact with the civilian population. Control.
and under their agencies directive they have the authority to use ANY amount of force , up to and including death to gain control of ANY civilian subject(yes even a six year old).

This is the real reason why Tasers are here to stay, and they will soon roll out much harsher and draconian devices in the near future.
In the control game , the quickest results, from the least amount of sweat is highly desirable.

The only thing that can put them in check is public opinion , which at present sadly falls on deaf ears. They are in no fear of repercussions, They know the corporate commerce codification and courts are on their team.

[AX10]

93. Isn't this what occurs in dictatorships.

Stalin, Benito, Franco, Hitler, Suharto?!?

What has happened here? How did we come to this?

[Tsiyu]

111. Good work

:)

[cestpaspossible]

26. If only we could make the taser even more painful, it would be even more

effective at making 'the little punk think twice'. :eyes:

[Bouncy Ball]

28. 100,000 volts maybe?

Or maybe they could use it two or three times in a row?

Now THAT would REALLY send a message!

[AX10]

90. But some officers do use it more than once even if...

the subject is on the ground.

[Bouncy Ball]

98. You're right and I have seen that in video footage.

[AX10]

118. It's called TORTURE, simple!

[converted_democrat]

34. Thank you!

The "little punks" mother just died! I don't understand how some can be sooo heartless!

[converted_democrat]

32. Nice, the kid just loses his mother and you call him " a little punk."

The people trying to protect the kid knew what the fight was about. The kid just lost his mom, and the kids were making fun of him for it. That's why he lost it. There were 30 people outside that knew what was going on and why. Why didn't the police know? Because they rather solve it with a taser, instead of help the kid.

[MrSlayer]

33. Um, according to the story he robbed one of the other kids.

If you're a thief you're a punk, it goes hand in hand.

[cestpaspossible]

36. Good thing we don't need juries and all that anymore -

we can skip straight to the punishment.

ZAP!

[MrSlayer]

42. The wheels on the bus.....

If the kid hadn't head butted and assaulted the officer he wouldn't have gotten tasered. The officer should just let that go on without defending herself right? Because after all, she isn't a judge. What a lame argument. How would you ever get a perp to court if you don't subdue and arrest them?

[cestpaspossible]

45. Well you did in fact justify the tasing by presuming the kid's guilt.

Just what is the 'lame argument' you are refering to again?

[MrSlayer]

50. Listen. If you assault a cop you will get tasered.

Can we agree on that? I hope so. Can we further agree that cops don't just go around tasering people for no reason? I know a lot of people are cop haters and think they are out of control Nazis or whatever but that simply isn't the case 99% of the time. So again, if he could not be controlled and was assaulting the cop he had to get tasered. The argument that police officers cannot act in defense of themselves because they are not a judge is ridiculous. You have to act immediately in those situations and they are highly charged with emotion. I'd love to see how the anti-cop crowd would act in their shoes. Probably run away is my guess. These guys put their lives on the line every day and never get thanked for it, only questioned and ridiculed. The bottom line is, do not assault a police officer and expect them not to react. You're never going to win in that situation.

[cestpaspossible]

79. Like I said, this way we save money on training -

all the officer really needs to know is how to apply the taser and handcuff the incapcitated citizen.

[gaia_gardener]

83. Nope, I can't agree to that

if the person is in a high-risk group (pregnant, elderly or teen or younger) then a taser should be considered deadly force.

If a child is not cooperating and in the heat of the exchange an officer feels they are assaulted then they move to a more physical form of control (ones in which they all are supposed to be trained). Deadly force should be reserved for life in danger situations.

[Bouncy Ball]

88. Even the manufacturer of the taser says that

certain groups of people should not be subjected to the taser if at all possible. You mentioned those groups. Also people with certain medical problems. But that's not always evident, so that's problematic.

[MrSlayer]

100. So if a pregnant woman has a bat or an 80 year old is wielding a sword...

and attacking a police officer they should be exempt from tasing simply based on those conditions? I think not. It really depends on the situation and this situation seems to favor the officer so far.

[cestpaspossible]

101. Interesting the examples you chose.

I guess real-life examples that supported your position were too hard to find, so you had to pose these fantasy hypotheticals...

[gaia_gardener]

119. Would deadly force be exercised in that case?

My criteria is that for the young, elderly and pregnant, tasers should be considered deadly force since it likely will be.

If the 80yo is wielding a sword a taser is definitely not a good choice. You would have to get way too close to use a taser. Deadly force is called for because s/he is using deadly force (this is only after s/he has not complied with an order to put it down and has been warned).

The bat is more iffy. But in that case, a nightstick and defensive maneuvers which police officers used to use is more appropriate. And again, it would be very difficult to get close enough to taser without being at risk. A nightstick gives you a lot more arm room.

C

[AX10]

92. What if I ask them a question or want to know why...

I am being pulled over? Should I be tasered then?

:eyes:

[cestpaspossible]

94. Depends on whether or not the officer is afraid of you.

Sounds pretty threatening, though. Challenging the officer's authority.

ZAP!!

[AX10]

97. Then that is Fascism.

:cry:

[converted_democrat]

37. According to the story released later that was not the case at all.......

Go look up the story in the Plain Dealer.....The kid just lost his Mom, and one of the other kids insulted her, and wouldn't let it go. Why do you think all those people surrounded the bus in the boy's defense? They knew the real story, that's why they we're trying to protect him. The guardian asked to talk to the boy to calm him down, and the police would not let her. They wouldn't listen to the people on the outside of the bus either. They had many options, and just chose to break out the taser.

[MrSlayer]

44. Why don't you give me the link?

I'm simply going by the story posted.

[converted_democrat]

48. Why don't you go look it up yourself? It's the plain dealer from

Cleveland. Look up the local channels while your at it, they all have the same story. Look it up yourself. It has sooooo much more impact! I have better things to do than read newspapers for you.

[MrSlayer]

51. Ok whatever.

Being that you know exactly where it is I was simply hoping for you to direct me there. Thanks anyway.

[tx_dem41]

53. Here's a link, but it wasn't in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, as you ...

stated. BTW, nice attitude c_d. You're fitting right in around here. You'll go far.

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14678989&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=6

[converted_democrat]

56. Give me a break..... You've been figured out ......

I could care less what you think. I know what you are. Your actually quite transparent.

[tx_dem41]

60. LOL...and you're hilarious.

You take yourself quite seriously, don't you?

I have one question for you....why???

[converted_democrat]

65. I'm not being funny....I'm being honest.....You've showed your colors...

I have a liberal point of view, so far, we've butted heads on everything. I don't usually bump heads with liberals. Soooo....

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[converted_democrat]

72. Give me a break, I'm not the one advocating the tasering of 12 year olds.

I converted and I'm proud. Get over yourself. How many other threads have you been called out today? You like being argumentative. Thank you for reminding me what the ignore button is for!

[tx_dem41]

73. Before you put me to sleep.....

....where was I advocating the tasering of 12 year olds?

[converted_democrat]

80. Here's one link I don't mind giving.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3833929&mesg_id=3842717&page= It's reply 208. Now to sleep you go. Seriously, I don't have time for this 2 year old crap. When you read the comment you made in context, yes that's exactly what your advocating, the tasering of a 12 year old.

[tx_dem41]

84. You missed post #210.

Where I said I wasn't talking about tasering. And it was just two teeny-weeny lines down from post #208. Oh, the humanity of it!

[converted_democrat]

58. Like I said earlier....This one is the first one in my browser, you want

the other one, look it up yourself. I have no time for lazies.

[tx_dem41]

62. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You topped your last post. Great stuff!

And, if you noticed, I was such a "Lazy" that I found your exact article for you.

"Lazies"....ahhhhhh...great stuff. Keep it up.

[converted_democrat]

66. If you found it, then you know I'm right.......Thank you...Case Closed!

[tx_dem41]

68. Case closed against what?

The only thing I've said about this particular case is that none of us were there, and we can't make any absolutist statements.

"Making stuff up"...hmm..add that to the list of old traits to work on losing.

[MrSlayer]

95. Thanks.

This sheds a bit of light but doesn't change the original story much. I still tend to believe the cop, the bus driver and the radio operator. Thanks for the hook up.

[slaveplanet]

102. I'm glad the Journal doesn't share

your twisted view of the evidence....

The police clearly have motive to lie...their public trust is on the line.

The Journal makes no bones , and says Police are "spinning defenses"

After all, earlier in the week, a cop jumped a fence and dispatched a Labrador retriever with a shotgun no less, right in front of an innocent teenager. The dust has not settled over that one yet , now add this incident and you have the proverbial "PR" nightmare.

What do the Lorain cops do? they go proactive and do a spin job in the Plain Dealer which has much larger circulation...such a transparent MO of many of these police whitewash taser stories....the Florida woman on the cell phone and the police's little narration come to mind...

I find it comical how many buy into it... a good way to spot people's ignorance/agenda


So keep it up with your armchair quarterbacking...the great majority here see through the BS...


The Tasering of a child is especially disturbing after another Lorain police officer on the lookout for a murder suspect shotgun-blasted a pet dog to death Sunday in a family's back yard as the dog's horrified teenage owner watched. No discipline is planned against that officer, who said he thought the Labrador retriever was going to attack him. That incident outraged dog lovers throughout the community, who noted that the Labrador retriever is a gentle breed that is ''all bark and no bite.''

The public is supposed to be able to look to the police for protection, and not have to worry about protecting their pets and their children from the police.

These two extremely disturbing incidents point to a need for better training, or retraining of Lorain's police officers. Police Chief Cel Rivera should be worried as he sees two of his officers shredding public confidence in the police through uncalled-for actions such as those we've seen this past week. -snip-

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14679004&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8

more...

Officer's dog-killing shotgun blasts also wounded public trust
06/08/2005

The two police shotgun blasts that killed a Lorain teen-ager's pet dog Sunday -- whether justified or not -- have certainly hurt the Lorain Police Department's relationship with the community. Comments from angry readers make that much plain to us.


The boy who saw his pet Labrador retriever slain has suffered nightmares and hasn't eaten; his dream of becoming a police officer is shaken, his mother said.


Other children in the neighborhood have suffered an emotional jolt; one young girl reportedly refused to go to school, saying she was afraid of the police.

Officer Rudy Arce encountered the pet dog in the family's back yard while helping detectives try to catch a murder suspect thought to possibly be in a nearby home.

''A large dog broke its rope and the officer told us he felt he was being attacked. He had a split second to make that decision while in the heat of the investigation,'' said Lt. James Rohner; no disciplinary action is planned.But the pet's owners dispute the police version of events and say the barking dog would not have attacked Arce. It's hard to accept the police assertion that the officer couldn't have repelled the dog with pepper spray instead of a shotgun. -snip-

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14657920&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8

still more...

LORAIN -- A Lorain couple watched in horror as a Lorain police officer allegedly shot the family's black Labrador retriever while investigating the occupant of a neighboring house yesterday afternoon.


Dora Candelario of 4723 Chelsea Drive said that about 4:30 p.m. police used the family's yard to surround a nearby house to arrest someone. The neighboring yard is surrounded by a fence, and Candelario and her fiance, Louis Tolento, said police entered Tolento's property with weapons drawn in an attempt to get to the house.


After the incident, another officer arrived at the home. Candelario and Louis Tolento said he asked about a body that was found near the couple's home. The detective told The Morning Journal he could not comment on the investigation.

Lorain County Coroner Dr. Paul Matus could not confirm that a body had been found on Chelsea Drive but said the body of a white woman in her 50s was found on Gary Avenue. Matus said more information would be available today.

According to Candelario and her son, J.R., the family's 2-year-old lab, Nala, was tied to a tree in the back yard, approximately 15 feet from where an officer stood with his weapon. The family said the dog was barking in an effort to protect the yard, but they said it did not act aggressively toward the police officer. -snip=

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14646347&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8

yet more....

LORAIN -- The mother of a boy who watched as Lorain police officer Rudy Arce shot his dog Sunday afternoon during a search for a murder suspect said it traumatized her son.


Fifteen-year-old J.R. Tolento had nightmares the night of the incident and still had not eaten as of yesterday afternoon, said his mother.



Dora Candelario, 4723 Chelsea Drive, said J.R. is taking the death of his 2-year-old black Labrador retriever, Nala, very hard. The family adopted the dog after the starving animal followed J.R. home from the Rainbow Bakery two years ago, she said.

''That dog loved him and he loved her back,'' Candelario said yesterday afternoon. ''She used to sleep at the foot of his bed, and he was the only one who took care of her. He doesn't want another dog because she was special, and he doesn't want an apology because it wouldn't do any good. All dogs have different personalities and she was special. He wants his dog back.''

Candelario said other children in the neighborhood who heard about the shooting are also having problems with what happened, including a little girl who refused to go to school yesterday and told her mother she was afraid of the police. -snip-

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14651901&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8

[slaveplanet]

105. From the epinions to those stories

06/08/2005

I am a former resident of Lorain. I served with the Lorain Police Aux for five years, and got to know how Lorain Police Dept. works I have been away for almost 20 years now but if the officers are anything like they were back then they must be very quick to pull a sidearm and use it on a animal. I have got back a few times in the past and had a chance to see them in action i can understand why the town is in the shape it is in now.

Submitter: Dennis Williams

[AX10]

116. Jesus Christ!

:rant: :banghead:

:wtf:?

This is tyranny.

[AX10]

117. "Lt. James Rohner; no disciplinary action is planned"

LORAIN OHIO POLICE = MUSSOLINI'S BROWNSHIRTS!

:argh:

[converted_democrat]

54. Here's a link.....This one was the first one in my browser.. Next time

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14678989&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=8


look it up yourself....

[noiretextatique]

49. according to his guardian's account...the boy insulted his dead mother

and kept taunting him. so, if he isn't a thief, perhaps he isn't a punk either. maybe he was just a frustrated, hurt, angry little kid.
as far as i know, that isn't a crime...yet.

[gaia_gardener]

35. Okay, that's offensive

12 year olds could be criminals, but if they are it's our failing as a society. And I would hope you would need more than *one* report before labeling someone a criminal.

His guardian was right there and wanted on to talk to him and calm him down. That was a much better choice than a taser which has been shown to be lethal in a large number of cases, especially when it is used against a child.

If a parent used a taser against their child, we'd call CPS (rightfully so), why should a police officer be any different?

[Bouncy Ball]

39. Tasers were not, in fact, designed to be used on children

or the elderly or pregnant women, etc.

They were designed to be used on healthy, full-sized adults.

[AX10]

85. Bingo!

[Tsiyu]

110. The truth doesn't matter now?

I love the military, but I hate what has happened at Abu Ghraib. Do you excuse that, too, based on the military's side of THAT "story?"

We don't know the facts here, but calling someone a police hater is a bit much for me to stomach. You don't know Bouncy Ball, but you insult her in this way? Sorry, I agree with her completely, and I admire and respect law enforcement. But then, I live in an area where the cops have some sense. I really feel sorry for those of you living in areas where the cops are out of control. It has to be frightening, worrying if you look at one the wrong way you'll be tasered. I can't imagine living in that sort of Police State. I am thankful for our local law enforcement. They treat people like human beings, a rare attitude among police these days, obviously.

I can't imagine being a cop and viewing Americans as your enemy - so much so that you will drop 50,000 volts on anyone at any time you choose. Very very sad.

[etherealtruth]

23. My question is ...

... had this incident occurred prior to the officer being armed with a taser would she have considered shooting the child? I agree with you completely: What has happened to the development of skills to diffuse "bad" situations?

[Bouncy Ball]

27. Exactly.

And I'll say this again: the police officers in my city (a large suburb of Dallas) don't even have tasers. According to the pro-taser people, they should be getting knifed and shot all the time, but they are not. They still get training on how to deal with unruly/violent/non-compliant (non-violent) people and do it everyday.

In fact the last officer death in my city was due to a man shooting out of the windows of his house. A police officer was caught in the cross fire and died. A taser would not have been of any use to him in that situation.

That was four years ago.

[cestpaspossible]

16. Plus this way we can save money on training the police

they can just use the taser anytime anyone doesn't listen - voila! no more need to teach negotiating skills or how to resolve a tense situation peacefully. You don't listen to the cops - ZAP! nice and simple

hey, it works for cattle

[slaveplanet]

31. again this is an assertion

by the police spokesman for the PD article.....

articles that have been put out after the use of force incident report was released, make no mention of a "Headbutt"


Don't believe everything you read from a police agency that is under fire for several different incidents in recent days

[tjdee]

12. Why don't parents of kids get tasers, then?

We keep hearing about how adults (who aren't the kid's parents) can't handle children...miraculously, so few parents manage to handcuff and taser their children when they won't behave. A miracle, isn't it!

If a police officer can't think himself out of tasering a 12 year old....well...does someone have a link to the story?

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. I usually have one or two 'unruly' kids in my class every year

Maybe a taser would help me with classroom management :sarcasm:

[Bouncy Ball]

75. Hmmmm.

That would have helped me with one or two eighth graders who didn't want to do their work!

:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. Speaking of kids not doing their work,

did you hear about this story?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7981915/

Missouri teachers quit in punishment protest

7 of 10 in tiny district resign after colleague is fired for helping girl
The Associated Press
Updated: 6:35 p.m. ET May 25, 2005
EAST LYNNE, Mo. - Seven of 10 classroom teachers in a tiny school district resigned after a colleague was fired for helping an 11-year-old girl who was left alone in a playground to pick up rocks as punishment.

The fourth-grader in the East Lynne School District in Cass County was assigned the task last September for refusing to do her schoolwork, but she was unsupervised except for a security camera. The playground was near a road but inside a fence.

The fired teacher, Christa Price, went to the principal — who is also the district superintendent — and asked him to reconsider the punishment, but he wouldn’t. So on her free period, Price helped the girl pick up rocks. Other teachers watched the girl the next day.

At contract time in March, Superintendent Dan Doerhoff recommended firing Price, a popular teacher who had had good performance evaluations, for insubordination. Seven other teachers then chose not to return their contracts.

[LWolf]

69. Neither.

It depends on the situation. Unfortunately, too many citizens currently subscribe to the black/white either/or yes/no polarized view of the world, which limits their ability to deal well with reality, imo.

The reality is that there are times that using a taser would be the right way to handle the situation, and some times that it would not. Using a taser on a 12 year old is ok if anyone is in imminent danger of being harmed by that 12 year old.

The reality is that there are times that trying to physically restrain a 12 year old doesn't work; when the 12 year old is especially large, perhaps under the influence of some substance, has "behavioral problems and takes medication, is in a state of advanced rage, in quarters too close to others, is armed, is likely to injure someone around him/her.

The youngest school shooter in the U.S. that I know about was 6 years old; he shot and killed a 6 year old classmate in Michigan several years ago. How many school shootings have there been since Columbine? When should law enforcement, or any school official, assume that someone who is "screaming obscenities and threatening to kill (her)" is not armed?

I don't advocate tasers, or any extreme measures, to be the first line of action when dealing with our young people, but I don't rule them out in every circumstance, either. When someone is screaming obscenities and threatening to kill, a law enforcement officer has to make an immediate, on-the-spot decision about how to prevent that person from carrying out the threats. I may not like the decision made, but I'm damned relieved that no one else on that bus was hurt.

[Sparkly]

77. At the risk of responding when I haven't read all the other replies

If the child doesn't have a weapon, I believe police officers are well-trained enough to physically restrain them without a taser.

A weapon in the hands of a child might create a different situation.

I also recognize that teachers can no longer deal with children physically without great legal risk -- whether restraining them or hugging them. No doubt the same goes for bus drivers. But I would hate to see tasers become an acceptable method of discipline instead.

[AX10]

82. If the child does NOT have a weapon in his/her hand...

the police SHOULD be able to restrain them without the use of a weapon.

I though that the police had to be physically strong. If they are just going to use a taser gun, then why do they have to be strong?

[Bouncy Ball]

89. Why do they even have to be in any kind of physical shape?

Fitness-wise, I mean.

[AX10]

91. Police do need strength to deal with situations...

in which physical violence may occur.

[EFerrari]

109. They need a brain more.

There are plenty of skills available to anyone who has to deal with an UNARMED out of control person.

I'm 125 lbs. When my family member was ill and out of control, I learned how to diffuse and secure the situation without weapons and without help.

It's called awareness and training.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. So they can chase the bad guys

and bad girls who run from them :)

[cestpaspossible]

99. The poll allows the defenders of this brutal fascist tactic to see

what a tiny minority they really are.

[EFerrari]

112. Thanks. And it could be that some people just haven't really

thought about this issue much.

Most of us want to trust and support law enforcement, want to believe they have all the tools and training they need to do the job we ask them to do.

This isn't reality. PDs all over the country are hurting, just like all of our institutions, for tools and training.

We have to get really vocal about these insane solutions or they will be enshrined.

[TrogL]

103. I would have allowed an officer to taser my kid

He was out of control and was working himself up to going for a knife.

It was his choice to go off his meds. He needs to learn consequences.

Obviously, I'd prefer they try a few other things first.

[EFerrari]

108. 12 years olds don't learn consequences via pain, they learn fear

and hatred.

And if your 12 year old went off his meds, it's YOUR responsibility to rectify the situation.

[NMMNG]

104. A taser was excessive

I am a 5'3" woman and I can physically restrain an adult by myself. There is no logical reason that this police officer, who has far more training than I in hand to hand tactics, should not have been able to do so on a 12 year old child.

[AX10]

115. Good to hear. If police are PROPERLY trained, they...

should be physically strong enough to deal with an unruly subject, particuarly a child.