OK, about to open a can of major worms here; socialism: how likely we

[PinkTiger]

could go there as a nation, as a world?
I've been reading up on the World Socialism Movement, and most of the things I'm reading don't indicate that a revolution would bring about Socialism in its best form, and yet -- they seem to say that unless we, as a world, go toward this goal, we will die as a civilization.

I am naive enough to think that socialism is a good idea; I just haven't figured out how we could become socialist and keep some of the things we like about capitalism, such as ownership of land.
I'm not ready to be forced into an apartment complex.

link:

http://www.worldsocialism.org/

[Mojambo]

1. We can only hope to get part of the way there

There's a great book by Gar Alperovitz called America Beyond Capitalism that actually posits a fairly workable model called a Pluralist Commonwealth.

Very worthwhile reading.

http://www.americabeyondcapitalism.com/

[PinkTiger]

6. Thanks!

I'm an educator and I ordered an evaluation copy for use in my Global Journalism class.

I so appreciate the link.

[Mojambo]

7. No problem

:-)

[burrowowl]

2. The world is going there

especially LA. The U$ no!
France is socialistic and you can own land.

[mandyky]

3. Actually, with property taxes no one here really owns land

You buy it and can say you own it and use it, but if you don't pay the taxes, the gov't comes in and auctions it off.

[K-W]

15. Indeed, its all just formalized control.

Ownership is a construct by which we legally define the right to control material and ideas.

The US Government controls the entire country, and owns all the land in a very fundemental sense. Now US law allows a different form of ownership. It allows people to exercise certain legally defined controls over things. But it is the government that institutes these laws and the government can and should ensure that land is used in a way that respects the rights of all of the people.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

5. Our Scandanavian friends have made their form of

socialism work, so that there is no poverty and everyone has basic access to things like health care and pensions. They still have land ownership and capitalism so I think if you look at how their governments work, it would help you organize your thoughts. Each country has websites that explains their system.

I go to them often because, before I become enamored of a program, I like to see if that program has been tried and works somewhere else. I specifically went to the Scandanavian country websites researching their national health programs but I learned a lot of other things about them by default.

[barb162]

8. Socialism per se won't work. A moderate form of capitalism/

socialism could work. Something like Sweden or Norway, I think, would be very ideal.

[JanMichael]

9. It may take generations but I'm an advocate now.

The fact is that our one world ecology is being destroyed by Capitalism, it is unable to manage resources like water, energy, the air.

Perhaps the catastrophic possiblities of the near to far future will be the straw that leads to Socialism with a Human Face.

[Matilda]

16. "Socialism with a Human Face"

was the ideal of one of my political heroes, Alexander Dubcek. A
wonderful and inspired leader, but he couldn't stand against the
might of Moscow.

[JanMichael]

17. Glad you caught that, it was intentional.

He's one of my personal favorites as well.

[Bouncy Ball]

10. Here's the deal (to me):

Most Americans, especially right wingers are QUICK to demonize socialism without really even knowing much about it except that they've heard rush limpballs or someone like him denounce it. God forbid they should read up and think for themselves.

But they ALSO do not look at the fact that capitalism, left unchecked, is NOT a good thing. When the US government started giving corporations personhood status instead of granting or revoking charters, we started going down a bad road, and we are constantly reaping the negative effects of that. It's just that most people aren't aware of how much better things could be, so they don't see those negative effects.

[ChiciB1]

11. Sometimes I Think Socialism Is Going To Be The Only Way

to save those who are being oppressed. But, even here as with Welfare there will ALWAYS be those who will vilify the concept. Simply because of the implications and overtones from the past.

But if SOMETHING isn't done, we are stepping back in time where the rich CONTROL everything. When America was a budding nation, many who came here were sorely oppressed. Landowners simply packed people in ships like sardines and those that survived were treated less like humans and more like slaves. Depending on the situation, they were indentured for years at a time before they could become free. Then when the rich Barons needed workers they provided menial pay, dangerous working conditions and very little regard for the health and welfare of the workers.

They opposed Unions, fought the uprising of the oppressed and in a sense continued the life many fled from to come to the New America! The "white man" can be held responsible for so much destruction to humanity. As it was then and it seems to be now.... the rich get richer and the poor get poorer!

But as I see it, back then people were aware they were being used. They were willing to stand up and die for what they believed to be right and proper. Yes, it was called REVOLUTION! With more and more weaponry, more police convergence and more political rhetoric, Revolution has no chance!

However today, far too many don't realize they are being used and duped to pad the coffers of those who have more than they will ever need. And in some ways, the Gap is bigger today than it was back then. And I doubt that ANYONE is going to let the theory of "good" Socialism help others to better themselves or even be given a chance to get a foot hold.

In the end, the sad reality is that Money will buy the Government THEY want! And we who oppose these tactics have not gained enough ground swell to make ANY change. All we can do is keep fighting and hope we can reach and teach others of the corruption now being perpetrated upon us. Instead of chasing dreams for other nations, we need to realize we have lost our basic "Democracy"! This Republic is no longer a Democracy that I recognize.

No Ben Franklins, no Paul Reveres, no Thomas Jeffersons, no dreams of what made America what ONCE made America great.

Any derogatory comments only bring counter punching of vile accusations against those who see what is really going on. Perhaps the only thing that will wake the sleeping Giant is an uprising of other countries who have come to see America as the ELEPHANT in the china shop. PUN INTENDED!

[K-W]

12. Dont get suckered into dualism with property rights.

It isnt an all or nothing issue.

WHat exactly about land ownership would you like to preserve? If you would like to preserve the system by which a small amount of wealthy people own most of the land, while large numbers of people, particularly minorities are forced to pay whatever rents the market will bear in order to have roofs over thier heads, then I would say no, socialism wont work for you.

Socialists dont want to take anything away from you unless you are living extravegantly. The point of socialism is to rationally engineer the economy to serve our needs whilest efficiently using resources and labor and fairly distributing the products of the economy and give all people the opportunity to live a basic standard off living, that doesnt mean everyone gets the same thing, it just means things are done in a rational way rather than the current system where the economy is controlled by a small group of owners and thier employees who have convinced America, that even though we love democracy and our republic its best to let private tyranny's decide our quality of life.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. We might actually have an openly socialist Senator in 2006

Just as a note of interest--Vermont is well on course to electing an independent openly socialist Senator in 2006. And I might add that he carries rural staunchly Republican counties by landslides..

For more info on Representative Bernie Sanders visit these links below:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2126


http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/04/who-is-bernie-sanders.html

http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/05/anatomy-of-progressive-campaign.html


See this website to help:

http://www.bernie.org


OR Telephone: [phone]

[The2ndWheel]

14. Everything keeps getting bigger

As things go that way, fewer people have power. That's what will kill the thing we call civilization. I don't really see much that can be done about that. Things happen on this planet. Power usually consolidates when those things happen, and then spends more and more energy keeping that new found power. That brings about more consolidation, as power needs to be more efficient.

I don't see much hope for humanity. I don't know where we're going with "civilization". What's the end? Everyone living in luxury? Things don't work that way. Nature has a way of balancing everything. Everyone can't be rich. Billions of mindless workers(and a handful of owners) who get to go home at the end of the day to TV?

Why do we always fight the same battles decade after decade? Why spend so much on weapons systems? Many other questions arise as well, and thinking about them drives me nuts.

If it is a problem, my problem would be that I'm too cynical and pessimistic. But that's just how my brain works. After thinking about these things, I always end up at the same place. What is our point? They throw words such as freedom out there. What the hell does that mean?

I don't know if socialism is going to answer my questions. I know endless competition doesn't. But that's just me. I don't care if I can get something just a little cheaper. I don't care if I'm efficient. I'm a human being, I shouldn't be efficient. And just because you brought it up as an example, I don't really want to own land either. That's not something I strive for.

I know I don't fit. My brain seems to work in a completely different way from civilization. The worst part is that I have nowhere to go. Can't sail west anymore. You can't just be.

My biggest question is what is the end game of civilization. If there isn't one, what the hell did we start it for?

[Matilda]

20. You sound confused. Me too.

I'm not sure how to make things work better, but I feel very strongly
that we can't say we have an advanced civilization when there are
some people for whom a million dollars is play money, while millions
all over the world don't even have access to clean water.

I understand that everyone would like to own their own home, and be
able to educate their children and pay all their bills without
worrying, but I don't understand why for some an annual income of
a million dollars, ten million, one hundred million, is not enough.
And I don't understand how those people can look at the starving
millions and not feel any pain or guilt.

I understand that companies want to make profits, but I don't
understand why that has to be done by denying workers a fair wage
for their work - why are the people who help make the profits treated
as if they're the enemy?

It seems to me that if there are always going to be people who will
always want more than their fair share and are prepared to rip off
others to do it, then there has to be a system in place to forcibly
cap their ability to keep acquiring more than they need.

I just don't know what that system could be.

[wadestock]

18. Your answer is here....

Capitalism does not survive without a socialism as a fundamental component of its being.

It is necessary to keep the middle class alive.
In its extension to smart science, it provides incentives to keep us all more fit, healthier, and thus actually more productive.

Socialism does not mean abandoning personal property. It means believing in people for the most part. That is exactly what this country was founded on.

Notice the repukes, neocons, et al, are tearing at this very fabric of "we the people". That's socialism in its ideal sense.

You CANNOT bring down capitalism with socialism. It wouldn't ever happen in this country. But if you returned to some decent levels of taxation on corporations and individuals that have now become so freeking rich that the bottom is falling out, you'd have money to do just the very first basics of healing our nation.

Don't talk about how socialism is going to bring down our country when the repukes have just about succeeded in turning our middle class into a working society without benefits. 10 years of what you might consider the most liberal form of socialism in this country would hardly put a dent in the damage that's been done.

[jzodda]

19. The concepts involved require a human evolution

As of now implementation of this would be impossible. In 100 years? Probably impossible. Why? Human nature. As a species we tend to divide people into classes even if the government says "no you can not". There will always be people who want more then their share and in the true socialist model these people will be at the top of the government. There they will not be working for the good of everybody, but the good of only themselves.

The human traits of jealousy, greed, racism, snobbery, selfishness, possessiveness in the things we own, and other negative traits would all have to be wiped away first before a system like that could work. Without it you will get people like Stalin at the top of the structure...