what are your thoughts

[earthmama]

"Our government is now starting to hand ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS FREE COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIPS....our own children that are born and bread in America, and come from families that are fighting for this countries freedoms are not even handed scholarships....I will just stop here and end with...

OUR FOUNDING FATHERS WOULD BE ROLLING OVER IN THEIR GRAVES AT THE FACT THAT WE ARE NO LONGER "ONE NATION UNDER GOD".....AND NO LONGER CAN ANNOUNCE "IN GOD WE TRUST"!!! '' - from another board ...

what are your thoughts on this?

I think it is a great idea to help the Illegal immigrants out. It will help them to get above the poverty level. They come here for a reason, to better there lives ... I admire that.

[trotsky]

1. Um, OK, I'll bite.

Where is your documentation of this claim?

[earthmama]

3. oh sorry ....

It was a topic started on another forum from someone. I was just wondering 1. what are people thoughts on this and 2. Is this true?

** typing one handed while nursing a baby is hard =)

[trotsky]

4. Well then, this is quite easy.

Tell that person to document their claim.

Don't waste your time unless THEY can prove it. Right-wingers throw heaps and heaps of trash on the wall hoping something will stick. Don't do their work for them.

[earthmama]

8. true ...

thanks. I am new to all this. I moved here from Canada and I am just overly shocked with the right wings and the fundamentalist. I live in the bible belt here where it is all RED.

[bertha katzenengel]

Where in Canada?

?

[earthmama]

13. From Montreal

MP Dr. Irwin Cotler

[bertha katzenengel]

15. You can Google!

That's a start.

I am a skeptic, earthmama. Most folks don't post things like you've posted when they first start out....

[earthmama]

19. I am sorry

I guess i didn't know the 'rules' before posting. I thought this was a discussion forum and I thought this was worty of a discussion.

What an I suppose to post then ?

[trotsky]

21. You'll have to excuse many of us for being skeptical

instead of getting touchy about the "rules."

It's a very common pattern among trolls and disruptors. Come to DU, register an account, then as soon as you can post, put up a bunch of right-wing lies and garbage easily debunked at places like Snopes.com, asking "Hey, has anyone seen this? How do we respond?"

[earthmama]

24. No worries ... I volunteered .. does that count?

I understand. But I really want you all to know that I am far from a troll.

Like I said, I am new to all of this ad I get disgusted from the words that come out of the right-winged mouths of the right wing. I am looking for info so that when i respond to them , I have more to back up what I am saying. Plus I get to learn more.

Also ... I volunteered my but off for the democratic party during the election. I can't vote, but called many people to remind them. Also, I cooked for the volunteers. Anyone in Charlotte would probably remember the baked ziti I brought in to them.

[bertha katzenengel]

22. It's worthy of discussion if you back it up with data.

It's worthy of dismissal if you do not.

Yeah, it's a discussion forum, but you must realize that this is a liberal web site, and things like what you've posted are flame bait here. That is, without data to back them up.

Show us some data and I'll stop being a skeptic. I have never heard of illegal aliens being granted scholarships. (The children of illegal aliens born in the United States, by the way, are United States citizens. That's the way it works here: get born here, you're a citizen. It's fabulous!)

[earthmama]

26. I have no data

I am sorry. Like I said this was posted on another forum and I was wondering what you all thought of it. I asked the original poster of this for data and I'll be glad to post it once I get it.

I learned a lesson and will no longer post anything like this unless I have the stuff to back it up.

[bertha katzenengel]

28. You could look it up, rather than waiting for a reply on the other board.

It's usually up to the person who posts something to get the facts. Google's quite handy.

[earthmama]

29. here is something I found on google

http://www.finaid.org/otheraid/undocumented.phtml

[bertha katzenengel]

38. This does not back up the claim. It debunks it.

Here's the claim:

"Our government is now starting to hand ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS FREE COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIPS"

Here's from the link you provided:

"Financial aid is generally not available for undocumented students and illegal aliens. The majority of all student aid, including Federal student aid, requires the recipient to be a US citizen or permanent resident (green card holder) or an eligible non-citizen. There are, however, a few states that allow undocumented students to qualify for in-state tuition rates. There are also several private scholarships available to undocumented students." (emphasis added)

Allowing undocumented students to matriculate at in-state tuition rates isn't a free college scholarship. And this is a state jurisdiction thing, not federal. And private scholarship funds can do what they want.

So now you can take this back to the other board and debunk this myth.

[earthmama]

45. oops ...

give me some credit here . I am trying.

[earthmama]

34. CHECK THIS OUT

This is the ''documentation" from the other forum

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=14324

[trotsky]

37. You might want to helpfully point out to the other person...

that none other than the ultra-conservative, ultra-religious Orrin Hatch is one of the co-sponsors of this bill.

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=12475

The DREAM Act, S. 1545, was introduced in July 2003 by Senators Orrin Hatch (R-UT) and Richard Durbin (D-IL) to amend the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (IIRIRA).

[earthmama]

44. Interesting ....

thanks!

[earthmama]

46. Well ..the person that originally made this claim

just posted that she got this info from O'reily ... enough said

[earthmama]

20. Have you ever been to montreal or quebec?

if so i can tell you alot about where I grew up and lived for proof. But then why do I have to prove myself

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earthmama]

27. Bring on the ?'s

I'd be glad to anwser them. ;-)

[CarefullyLiberal]

31. Immigrant or border hopper?

Earthmama,

Are you here in the United States legally?

-Fergus

[earthmama]

33. YES!!

I am married to an american and our daughter was born here.

[CarefullyLiberal]

35. That's awesome, earthmama!

Welcome to America! I'm sure you've been here awhile now, but I thought I would pass on the congrats anyway.

BTW, in an earlier post I saw that you were very involved with the Democrat Party. Good for you and thank you.

-Fergus

P.S. - I hope you someday decide to become an American citizen. There's plenty of room in here!

On edit - Friggin spellchecker, forgot to use it.

[earthmama]

36. thanks for the welcome

I am going through a culture SHOCK. Moving from Canada to the south. People think I am a freak cause I am fallowing buddha, openly talk anout weed ( can I mention that here) , want peace and bellydance but I like it.

[CarefullyLiberal]

41. Heh heh heh!

A belly dancing pot head buddist...

I can't imagine why you don't go unnoticed?? Try making your belly-dancing skirt with the rebel flag, that'll help you fit in.

Namaste

-Fergus

[earthmama]

50. Well I am thinking about getting a nascar tat

a temp one so I can 'fit' in a little better

[trotsky]

39. Just an FYI...

Most Democrats take offense at the term "Democrat Party". The proper name is the "Democratic Party." Lots of right-wingers have taken to saying the former, though, in an attempt to verbally diminish Democrats.

[CarefullyLiberal]

43. You're right

The proper name of the party is, "The Democratic Party".

DOH!

-Fergus

[earthmama]

49. oh ...

I think I was typing uber fast when I wrote that. I am a stay at home mom to a 9 month old and can't type.

Noted and will remember that from now on.

I really don't want to be thrown out to the sharks anymore ;-)

[earthmama]

53. anything else I need to know?

??

[Telly Savalas]

48. Although there seem to be a fair number of people with 1000+ posts

who get on here defending racist pigs like the Minutemen.

[bertha katzenengel]

51. Well, maybe someone will come to my defense, because I'm ignorant:

Who are the Minutemen? Never heard of them, except in a historical context.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Minutemen = KKK who are guarding the borders

with guns in tow, to keep immigrants out. They were in AZ and are now spreading their hate around the country to other borders. They carry the Confederate flag as a proud symbol. :(

[earthmama]

59. yuck

I didn't know this was happening. are they killing anyone? What are the Police doing about it?

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. They haven't killed anyone....YET, but

if the chance presents itself, they will. The police? They are doing NOTHING. They say it's legal for citizens to do this. :eyes: Vigilantism, that's all it is.

[earthmama]

62. That is just WROOOOONG.

[sniffa]

2. sounds Like a chain maiL

weLcome to DU

[auburngrad82]

5. You mean "bread" as in dipped in flour?

Our founding fathers are not rolling over in their graves. Go back and read the writings of many of them. While they were spiritual men they were also against a state endorsed religion like many of them left behind in England.

Also, remember that when they wrote the Constitution, many of the men who were involved were immigrants or were from immigrant families. I don't know of one native American that was involved in the writing of the Constitution. I doubt that they would be upset about the concept of equal rights for all.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

17. trivia of the day....

The Six Nations:
Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth


The people of the Six Nations, also known by the French term, Iroquois <1> Confederacy, call themselves the Hau de no sau nee (ho dee noe sho nee) meaning People Building a Long House. Located in the northeastern region of North America, originally the Six Nations was five and included the Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas. The sixth nation, the Tuscaroras, migrated into Iroquois country in the early eighteenth century. Together these peoples comprise the oldest living participatory democracy on earth. Their story, and governance truly based on the consent of the governed, contains a great deal of life-promoting intelligence for those of us not familiar with this area of American history. The original United States representative democracy, fashioned by such central authors as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, drew much inspiration from this confederacy of nations. In our present day, we can benefit immensely, in our quest to establish anew a government truly dedicated to all life's liberty and happiness much as has been practiced by the Six Nations for over 800 hundred years. <2>

:)

http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/

[wtbymark]

25. But now the six nations are done

The white man took most of their land, confining them to regions with no prosperity. Forcing them into the white mans economic system to sell cheap cigarettes and gas and threw them a bone by letting them build casinos and taking a cut of the profits. I grew up in Chittenango (where water runs north) and native americans of the six nations do not live well.

[LaurenG]

6. Check out UTEP

My mother said this several years ago. I don't quite remember her exact words but something about the University of Texas at El Paso giving scholorships.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

7. don't know what you are talking about, could you mean this:

in NC, children of illegals who are born in U.S. (u.s. citizens who parents are illegal) get in state tuition to state schools.

this is hardly a free scholarship to illegal immigrants.

document you claims and we will see if they are true are not.

[bertha katzenengel]

9. I think that our founding fathers would roll in their graves to know

that so many people voted for a warmongerer because they were fooled into believing he is a follower of Christ.

[BiggJawn]

10. Did that come in an Email with the header....

"SEND THIS TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW!"?

"I think it is a great idea to help the Illegal immigrants out. It will help them to get above the poverty level. They come here for a reason, to better there lives ... I admire that."

Hmmm....Sounds like a Neo-Con parody of what a "Liberal" would supposedly say....



Oh, BTW, Welcome to DU.

[earthmama]

14. no ... didn't come in an email

Was posted in another forum

[BiggJawn]

56. OK.

Sounds like something my friend's sister would send out.

[Dhalgren]

11. Sigh....

:eyes: :silly: :eyes: :silly: :eyes: :silly: :eyes: :silly:

[Burma Jones]

12. OK, I'll answer

First off, I don't know the details of handing out free college scholarships to illegal immigrants, I would like documentation of that claim. Sounds like a C-Span caller rant to me.....


Secondly, the founding Fathers made no mention of either "one nation under God" nor of "In God we Trust" "One Nation Under God" was created and added to the Pledge in the 1950's to cater to anti-communists. In God we Trust was added to coins during the Civil War and to Paper Money in the 1950's.


http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

So, the things you complain about were not envisioned in the least by the founding fathers of this nation. In fact, they were much more likely to use Masonic symbology rather than any sort of Judeo-Christian symbols.

Oh, and by the way, anybody anywhere in the USA can announce "In God We Trust" we have that freedom thanks to that bunch of radical lefties that crafted the Bill of Rights. If someone wants to live somewhere that REQUIRES you to say "In God We Trust", I suggest they try Iran.

[SmokingJacket]

16. Alexander Hamilton was born a British subject...

in the West Indies, and I don't even think he had a green card!

Thomas Paine was born in England.

Yeah... I'm sure our founding fathers just HATED the idea of immigrants getting and education!!!

(do I even need a sarcasm tag? Um, no)

[earthmama]

18. Thanks Everyone

I am learning alot.

[Don Claybrook]

30. My kids were born here, but they're not breaded

Too fattening.

[earthmama]

32. Founding Fathers religion ?

I've been in several discussion about the founding fathers with fundamentalist, etc ...

I heard that the founding fathers where unitarian and deist. Can someone point me into the direction to some really good info about this?

**I admit that I hardly know anything about this history of this country but this Canadian is learning**

[seabeyond]

40. quotes from founding fathers

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

- Thomas Jefferson

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

- Thomas Jefferson

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

- John Adams

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

-James Madison

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

-James Madison

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

-Thomas Paine

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Patrick Henry has been quoted as saying that, but as to the context, and the source I am not sure.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. A Deist according to Webster's is (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible (The Jefferson Bible), of which I own a copy. It TOTALLY removes all accounts of the divinity of Christ and all of the miracles - including the virgin birth. Benjamin Franklin was raised Episcopalian, but was also a Deist. John Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but later became a Unitarian. Here are what some of the other founders had to say about it.

John Adams:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams again:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Still more John Adams:

“...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

James Madison again:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

Finally, a word from Abraham Lincoln:


The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[Ani Yun Wiya]

47. welcome earthmama

**I admit that I hardly know anything about this history of this country but this Canadian is learning**


It can be tedious to learn all that has transpired across this land in the last 225 or so.

Even more of a challenge is to learn what transpired before the arrival of the Europeans.

And in my thoughts is a very happy and pleasant place for Montreal.

[Sgt. Baker]

52. Were

Many of our founders were christians but the thing that makes them different is that they believed in separating religion and politics. They also had the ability to see the flaws in their religion. They were smart men who understood religious persecution and found a way to end it with the first amendment.

Do some google searching. There's tons out there and ALL of it is conflicting. Best thing to do is read as much as you can and make your own decision what you believe is right.

[Sgt. Baker]

42. I keep wondering

Why our government thinks more about people in the country illegally than they do about it's own citizens. Help your own people first. What's next, allowing illegals to vote in our elections?

I think the republicans are pushing legislation like this in order to hold onto and gain more latino voters who support the party. It's apparently working.

[earthmama]

54. Did you know

That Illegals pay taxes but can not file taxes and get money back

[Sgt. Baker]

55. did you know

it is illegal to employ people who are in the country illegally. I have a friend who was deported from Canada for being there and working illegally without a work visa.

[earthmama]

60. Yes i do know that ..

But there are still illegal Imm. employed who are paying taxes and getting nothing back from the gov.

[Sgt. Baker]

63. why

They need to take that up with their employer. Maybe get him to pay them under the table. They don't have social security numbers or at least valid ones so how would our government be able to give them their tax refund. Why would the government give a tax refund to someone who is here illegally anyway.

[Jose Diablo]

57. Google is your friend

Try "Scholarship for foreign students":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Scholarships+for+foreign+students&spell=1

One site thats interesting is:

http://www.iie.org/TemplateFulbright.cfm?section=Fulbright1

And within this site is:

Grants for Current Foreign Students

Interesting, huh?

Good thing Fullbright was so concerned for the people around the world.