China arrests nearly 600 underground churchgoers

[dArKeR]

Officials in northeast China's Jilin Province have carried out a major crackdown on underground churches and detained nearly 600 worshippers and leaders, a US group said yesterday.
The campaign was carried out on May 22. About 100 heads of the illegal churches, including professors from the province's Changchun University, remain in custody, the China Aid Association (CAA) said.

China allows Christians to worship only in state-approved churches which come under strict government monitoring. Many, however, prefer to attend underground or "house" churches.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2005/06/14/2003259212

Microsoft bans 'democracy' for China web users - Moneycentral
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1542226

[Kerrytravelers]

1. The future in shurb's amerika.

[shraby]

2. Yup, that's what happens when you mix

church and state. There's a long history of it.

[still_one]

3. There you go constantly bashing China

mostly quoting anti-Chinese papers. Excluding the Microsoft story,
China definitely has its problems, but from where they have been to today, it is amazing how much they have accomplished, in spite of the west, Japan, and Chiang we refused to unite in world war II against a common enemy at the time

Frankly, my problems concern this administration, NOT the Chinese administration. The worst thing this government could do is involve itself in a country's internal affairs. LOOK AT IRAQ

[JohnLocke]

5. Logical fallacy

China definitely has its problems, but from where they have been to today, it is amazing how much they have accomplished, in spite of the west, Japan, and Chiang we refused to unite in world war II against a common enemy at the time
Frankly, my problems concern this administration, NOT the Chinese administration. The worst thing this government could do is involve itself in a country's internal affairs. LOOK AT IRAQ

:eyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_make_a_right_%28fallacy%29

[still_one]

10. I agree two wrongs don't make a right, etc

but the person who started this thread always has one theme, to show China as the bad guy. It is NOT that simple. If you have ever visited China you will understand. Democracy does NOT happen overnight, and the theme of this thread that China is supressing religion is valid up to a point. Read Edgar Snow to understand what has and is happening

China is a HUGE country with many backgrounds. It is easy for other countries to tell China what to do, they sure did it for years in the 20th century, at a cost of millions of lives. China needs to make its own transition in its own time.

Religion has been the cause of many problems. The communisim in China today is not the communisim of marx and lennin, and in time they will find the right direction.

Most people in the U.S. would be surprised at how much freedom actually is in China. Unless one has been there the only view one would have would be the bush propaganda machine, and the Taiwan lobbyist.

We didn't understand that the war in Viet Nam was their war of liberation.

We don't understand the tribal/clan differences, and are in the middle of a civil war in Iraq, which is we cannot win.

[expatriot]

22. It's funny how you worked in Chiang but skipped right over Mao....

And I don't think the lesson we that we should take away from the Iraq debacle is "don't read news stories that are critical of another nation's domestic policy!" Listen, we do have a stake in China's policy, we have economic interest's in its stability and its social upheavels not to mention a common interest with the humanity of the Chinese people.

[IndianaGreen]

4. Considering what "churchgoers" have done to our country

I won't shed a tear for their Chinese fundie counterparts.

[JohnLocke]

6. You do believe in religous freedom, right?

Should people be forced to attend government-run churches if they want to worship?

By the way, about the so-called "fundie churchgoers" (from the article):
University students, professors and other young intellectuals make up most of the parishioners at the raided house churches, CAA cited sources as saying.

Gee, whiz! University students, professors and young intellectuals. Now those groups are surely noted for their fundamentalism. :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

8. Let me know when Christians stop persecuting gays and preaching

intolerance from their pulpits.

Just where in the hell do you think they got their bibles from?

If you say America, you got it right!

Here is the Chinese Christian Mission website:

http://www.ccmusa.org/

[still_one]

11. The article is from a source that has its own agenda against China

Have you been to China?

[IndianaGreen]

13. The China Aid Association (CAA) is a fundamentalist rightwing group

The US group that the Taipei article quotes, China Aid Association (CAA), is a fundamentalist rightwing group, no different from those groups that are trying to evangelize Iraq or Afghanistan.

Here is their stupid website:

http://www.chinaaid.org/english.htm

Here is a picture of CAA's Bob Fu with GOP Congressman Chris Smith:

[still_one]

15. you are preaching to the choir with me

China has to keep a huge country together. They have already been through a bloody civil war. Something on par with the civil war we have created in Iraq

[IndianaGreen]

16. We are in agreement here

It is those that fail to see, or choose to ignore, the agenda of some of these groups that advocate "freedom."

[expatriot]

23. More power to them.... let's hope more rightwingers hear

what they have to say. I am not a Christian but will love the prospect of freepers torn between supporting Wal-Mart or supporting fellow-Christians.

[foo_bar]

26. Agence France-Presse has an agenda against China?

AFP , BEIJING
Tuesday, Jun 14, 2005,Page 1

Per AFP:

"China carries out "major" crackdown on house churches, detains 600: group
Length : Short ( 266 words )
Keywords : China, religion

Officials in northeast China's Jilin province have carried out a major crackdown on underground churches and detained nearly 600 worshippers and leaders, a US group said Monday. The campaign was... "

http://www.afp.com/english/globe/?pid=archives

Have you been to France? :P

[Kerrytravelers]

7. Please, correct me where I'm wrong, but I don't think they're fundies

I think they simply want the freedom to worship as they choose, not as the state dictates.

Even fundies have the right to worship as they so choose. What they do not have the right to do is hijack this country, change the Senate rules, declare war on other Americans for not believing as they do and for being gay and violating others civil rights in their attempts to transform this country into a Christian nation.

If I have mistaken the Chinese churchgoers, please let me know and show me where you've obtained your info so that I may be better informed.

Thanks!

kt

[IndianaGreen]

9. It's their proselytizing I have heartburn with

A clever bait and switch con job where they target those that are vulnerable, and once they get their claws on them, they proceed to fill their heads with their rightwing ideology.

[expatriot]

24. What could be more rightwing than the Communist regime in Beijing?

Newt Gingrich said back in the mid nineties that mainland China was the most pro-capitalist nation in the world, they let multi-nationals build and operate nearly completely tax free, they have a rapidly increasing gulf between rich and poor.... they have a one party state... all fantasies of Rove.

[still_one]

12. China does NOT dictate how people worship

go to China and see.

This article is propaganda from Taiwan

[still_one]

14. this is propaganda from Taiwan

People can worship in China whatever religion they want to, as long as the religion doesn't get involved politics. Maybe not the most pure sense of freedom, but China is a huge country which has to look out for its own interests

I remember people critisizing it for the one child policy. Well, look at India, and compare it to China.

[expatriot]

21. "This is propaganda from Judea"

People can worship in Imperial Rome whatever religion they want to, as long as the religion doesn't refuse to respect the divinity of other deities recognized by Rome as the patron and patronesses of its many peoples. Maybe not the most pure sense of freedom, but Rome is a huge empire which has to look out for its own interests, chief among these being the keeping of a multi-cultural religious pantheon for the sake of continued harmony and understanding between its diverse population.

[Richard Steele]

18. Yeah, after the last 5 years, I'm starting to think CHINA is right!

OK, my thread title was SARCASTIC and INFLAMMATORY...but also had abit of TRUTH:

It's not ILLEGAL to be a Christian in China;
You can praise and worship JESUS all you want.
PROVIDED:
That you do it in an "Officially Sanctioned" church;
AKA: a church full of spies,
who moniter the sermons for "anti-government" activity.

Meanwhile, SECULAR China slowly (VERY slowly) becomes freer every day,
both Economically and Politically...

................................................................

5000 miles away:
The USA has given all churches permission to:
"Move across the face of the land without LET or HINDRANCE, owing no LOYALTY to any LAW"...
Or even to pay the TAXES that (many small) businesses pay to support their support systems...

And, surprise: Many of these churches, beholden to NO LAW,
have become bubbling cauldrons of FASCISM.

AS you read this, more than 40 School Districts are spending precious $$$ defending the teaching of BASIC SCIENCE...

A nationally known "Christian Spokesman" just declared that a US Minority should be made to wear LABELS.
(Just like those other "Decent Folks": The NAZIS)

And the Federal Government has gotten the word "HOMELAND" into official vernacular.
"HOMELAND" was not a term pulled from thin air in the USA;
the word has been used for almost 40 years!
USED... by the cult-fringe "White Supremacist" groups that spawned Tim McVeigh!!!

So, long story short (too late):
A: CHINA CONTROLS its freedoms, and its FREEDOM grows SLOWLY.
B: The USA has DeRegulated its oppresors,
and the OPPRESSION grows RAPIDLY.

QUESTION: In 20 years, which nation will be "a shining beacon" to the world?
ANSWER: 要求我在20 年

[IndianaGreen]

17. This is not LBN, the actual incident took place on May 22, 2005

A press release from a rightwing fundie site is not LBN:

http://www.chinaaid.org/documents/CAAJune92005pressonmassivecrackdownandarrestofchurchleadersinJilinprovince.doc

[moobu2]

19. Awww the poor persecuted Christians,

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

As dangerous as Christianity is (read any history book) If I were in control of that decision for my country, I would heavily regulate Christianity and place very stiff penalties for violators, probably more so than China does now.

China has a long and brutal history with Christianty going back to the empirialistic day's of England, Spain, France etc... and countless millions have died because of it.

Anyway, it's great news that China is cracking down on it. Hopefully they can prevent the death and destruction that inevitably follows wherever Christianity flourishes. Yeah, there's a few "good Christians" but most of them are susceptible to some charismatic nut case leader...it always happens with the death worshipers.

[expatriot]

20. China has really hit the books on this one...

They are really using the lessons of history on this one.... history tells us the most effective means of irradicating a religious and or spiritual movement is by persecution.... ESPECIALLY Christianity.

:sarcasm: x 1,000,0000

[moobu2]

25. Hardly a "Christian persecution"

They (rightwing Christians) just don't like having to operate within the law in China. I think China is dealing with this pretty well in letting the ones already infected worship at state monitored Churches to contain the damage already done and arresting the outside instigators (priests, preachers whoever).

I would expel the foreigners and re-educate and give psychological treatment to the others. I'd make sure they understand how destructive and devious Christianity can be culturally etc...

[still_one]

27. have you been to China?

I really doubt it, because your insights lack knowledge of the country

read Edgar Snow, then you might understand exactly where China has come from and where they are today

Persecution, "ESPECIALLY Christianity"???

Have you ever heard of the crusades, the inquisitions, the pogams, the holocost?

The Christians were the implementers of those persecutions.